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  1. 3 points
    @AlanF Haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I see the name @scholar JW pop up in a "Who's Online" box now and it always reminds me of the fact that he seemed to love a 587 debate, wherever he could find one. I always appreciated your knowledge on that topic (although, you also scare me with your evolution/atheism arguments). But back to the point. I did not know that you knew this much about the Lloyd Barry and Ted Jaracz situation. I was going to start avoiding using so many names but, yes, of course you are talking about the same people. In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time: And by the way I don't know if you know C.A. (still alive) but he is the WTS source for most of this particular story, either directly or indirectly. He is currently living in a residence just off the Bethel campus, and is not doing that well health-wise. I prefer that his name is not spelled out here, because I'm sure he would have preferred that these issues were not widely publicized in a forum such as this. I embarrassed myself in front of him on my first day at Bethel over 40 years ago, by telling him about a problem with the pay phones in the Bethel lobby. He listened and then shrugged as if he could not have cared less about it. I don't know why it still embarrasses me so much, but it doesn't matter, we got along very well from that point until even long after I left Bethel. He himself got involved in some even more embarrassing situations at Bethel, which I think you know about. He was in the Service Department under Miller and Jaracz, and shortly after I left Bethel, he was "promoted" to the Writing Department. But this story is primarily from back in 91 to 92. After the 91 article, brothers and sisters thought it was good to start telling their stories of sexual abuse to the elders, to the Society, and to professional therapists. The situation was very unnerving for the Society and for local elders too, especially when the accused were those they knew and wanted to defend in some way. There was a big new controversy over repressed memories and whether all these accusations could actually be false. Elders in California, and a couple other states were actually starting classes in "repressed memories" and trying to learn what they could about psychiatry. Victims were coming out of the woodwork. So Brother Jaracz who tried to keep it "anonymous" from the rest of the Service Department, talked to several of the brothers who were known to be on the rise and who had requested or were being considered for Bethel positions in the Service Department. These were Brother Pierce, West, Lett and Beagle, possibly among others. Pierce and Beagle were sent to California to handle circuits that TJ had been in, and West and Lett were assigned to Wisconsin, at least, there might have been other areas and brothers involved too. To give you an idea of who these people were, Beagle, Pierce and Lett were called in to work as C.O.s and D.O.s around the NYC area. (West may have been too, but I don't know what happened to him.) This is a commonly known sign that they are being watched and in close communication with the Service Department, and Bethelites "in the know" start guessing at this point that they will soon be called in to Bethel for "top jobs" CA, in fact, predicted when Beagle would come in (he was immediately assigned to the Service Department) and CA guessed in advance that Pierce would go straight to the Governing Body. I think he may have had some inside information. The two most intimidating were Beagle (six foot six) and Pierce (short but a bulldog with a smile). The intimidation campaign actually produced letters complaining about both of these persons, which was another reason for moving them to NYC. Pierce (from the Salem OR area) had a range of complaints about his "weirdness." An old accusation from 1991 actually ended up revealing clearly that it was TJ behind the anonymous campaign, as he sent a letter on his own letterhead (his codes) to a sister (a victim's mother) whose daughter was sexually abused by more than one elder since she was young. The mother died, and the daughter is in possession of letters between her mother and the WTS, including at least one from TJ. And based on the content of the letters, she recalled that it was West and Lett who met with her to warn her and her mother that they would be disfellowshipped if they exposed the story. This part of the story, if true, would provide further confirmation that Lett and West were involved in the same intimidation. I already knew something of Pierce and Beagle because of relatives in California. Brother Beagle, by the way, (young) died suddenly of a heart problem shortly after he began his assignment in the Service Dept. Brother Lett, of course, is now on the Governing Body and made himself famous to this victim (and exJWs, and probably other victims) by implying that apostate lies were behind the spread of rumors about the WTS covering up child sexual abuse. [edited to remove some of the state locations and too many specifics about the victim and victim's family. If you copied a previous version, please reload the page to get the edited version.]
  2. 3 points
    Thank you, i have read this already, but it isn't very recent.. My main point was to find out if the Governing Body / Writing Dept' has very recently written anything new regarding suicide. In the last 6 month maybe ? My personal feelings are that God, through Jesus Christ, will resurrect all those that they find worthy. And that 'worthiness' cannot be judged by any human. Thanks again.
  3. 3 points


    Thanks for that personal experience and viewpoint. I have seen (especially in computer field) many brilliant kids. One of my nephews also played music while teaching himself programming. He is a firewall programmer (or something very saught after in protection field) without a degree. I marvel sometimes at kids who turn out technical machines in poor countries (especially central Africa) where the intellectual and technical landscape is barren. They somehow find books and teach themselves. My best friend in Africa has a son who manufactures feeding machines for factories (including car factories). He designs and makes them. I knew him as a boy. She raised him and his 2 sisters alone and did not have money for secondary education. I wish all stories turn out like this but unfortunately we do know reality - not all people are innovative. Some have to go to vocational school to learn how to do a job in order to become employable. To be an entrepeneur one needs a skill (self-taught or acquired during secondary education) to provide something of value one can sell.
  4. 2 points
    JW Insider said: Of course. One such was in the April 1, 1986 Watchtower, which considered the question, "Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?" The article never clearly defines "apostasy", but weasels around by saying that a true Christian must accept "the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses." But this is another instance of the Society talking out of both sides of its mouth, because the Insight book, under "Apostasy", clearly states that apostasy "constitutes a rebellion against God and a rejection of his Word of truth." Combining the two concepts results in something like this: "Since the Governing Body speaks for God, rejecting its teachings is rebellion against God." And we know that this idea has been clearly enunciated or implied hundreds of times in JW literature. Of course, in the most general sense, "apostasy" means "leaving a previous loyalty", but that is far too broad a definition because it would mean that a loyal employee who quits his job is an apostate, which is an absurd use of the word. So the Society's many rantings against "apostates" essentially equate disagreement with its teachings with rebellion against God. How convenient! Much more accurate words to describe dissent from Watchtower teaching are "heterodoxy" and "heresy". But heresy has dire associations, such as "Inquisition" and so forth, so the Society will not use it. Catholic scholar Jeffrey Burton Russell, writing in Dissent and Order in the Middle Ages: The Search for Legitimate Authority (Twayne Publishers, 1992), gave an excellent account of these and related words and how they have been used in the Catholic world (pp. 2-3): << Ideas acceptable to the bishops and to approved theologians were defined as orthodox (correct teaching) and catholic (universally held)... Dissenting ideas were considered heterodox (divergent). Heterodox ideas, when defined and condemned by the bishops, were deemed heretical. A heretic was a dissenter formally condemned by an accepted ecclesiastical authority... The term heretic is distinguished from infidel, one who is not Christian at all; apostate, one who abandons Christianity; and schismatic, one who has true doctrine but does not submit to ecclesiastical order. >> Most of these concepts are found in the April 1, 1986 Watchtower. Yes, as I said above. That's right, but no administrators in their right minds would call such an expelled person an apostate. And of course, expelling for clearly stated organizational reasons has nothing to do with equating those reasons with rebellion against God. It is this unchristian attitude, among other things, that defines Jehovah's Witnesses as a destructive cult.
  5. 2 points
    @Anna Now that you mentioned it I remember that too. So far no information I had seen in the UK regarding the mental ill person who committed the act. For the past few months I was focused on not just my ministry, but grave things concerning csa in several parts of the world. @Arauna The UK is far worse when it comes to child abuse. So much as so, some even commit the idea that the gov't let's certain folks go, while some who they do not recognize are the ones to be sent away; locked up.
  6. 2 points
    I'm sure it's been pointed out under the many prior 1975 topics in this forum. The fact that the prediction was for the 1970's, not 1975 is easily seen from the articles called, for example, "What Will the 1970's Bring?" and the Circuit Assembly badges we wore that asked: "Who Will Conquer the World in the 1970's?" The reason for 1970's instead of 1975 was because of articles and talks that made the following points: *** Watchtower 1968 August 15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? *** 30 Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. . . . It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years. If that difference between the end of six thousand years since Adam, and the end of the "sixth day" could not be a matter of years, then this means that it must be less than two years from the autumn of 1975. After the autumn of 1977 it would have become a matter of years, not just months. Then, especially after the 1970's, the focus of the prediction moved to a time before the year 2000: The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19 "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!" "Let Your Kingdom Come" (1981) p.102 "But now in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest "a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!" Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12 "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."
  7. 2 points
    I was in conversation with an elder last week (or maybe two weeks ago) and I don't quite know how we got onto the topic but we started talking about suicide. I was a bit surprised when he said "But don't commit suicide or you will not get a resurrection". I was wondering where exactly this information comes from. Having recovered from the shock, I have since emailed this elder and got no response. I have looked on JW Org and read a couple of older articles on there, but they seemed to say that it is or was not their place to judge, which i agree with. So, is there 'new light' on the subject of suicide ? If so where does this new light come from ? And what scriptures back up this 'new light' ? I will willingly read any recent articles that are passed on to me, as this latest information, if it is true, i find disturbing. I know of many people that have committed suicide, both inside and outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation.
  8. 2 points
    It sure does my heart good. Yes, and I am taking diligent notes. I may be a washed-out has-been, but I will rise again!
  9. 2 points
    Arauna said: Same one who appointed your Governing Body. Only to you. Not to me, because I have definite knowledge of the events I've described. On the other hand you have nothing to dispute any of it. Which is what the GB did to convict Leo Greenlees of being a pedophilic, homosexual child molester. Your worship of the GB is so strong that even if Jesus himself told you that they are not what they claim, you wouldn't believe him. You're one those I had in mind when I mentioned self-righteous JW apologists. Wow! You actually learned something! Except that the Old Testament relates that many miraculous events proved that Elijah and others were really appointed by God to do his bidding. What does the GB offer? Their word. And how valuable is that? The history of Watchtower leaders from before it even existed proves that not a single prediction they made came true, and that their false teachings make a pretty big pile of trash. So are you claiming you don't worship the Governing Body? Don't let your fellows know, or you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
  10. 2 points
    The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body. Mostly they simply deny that these charlatans did anything wrong at all. Much like Donald Trump's Republican defenders are doing in the current House impeachment hearings. Let's watch as some JW apologists try to excuse their leaders for the conduct described below. JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh). Jaracz eventually worked his way into the de facto position of 'supreme GB member' by force of personality, essentially replacing Fred Franz and becoming head of the Service Department. As such, and because of his temperament, he was feared and hated by many lower-order Bethelites. There is very good evidence that Knorr had removed Jaracz as a circuit servant in Australia for some sort of sexual misconduct with a minor(s), which is a smoking gun for his attempts to hide all mention of child sexual abuse from the JW rank and file, both in print and in dealings that appointed officials such as Circuit and District Overseers had with elders and the rank and file. If Jaracz was a child molestor 40 years earlier, it was a good bet that he retained a tendency to excuse them in the 1990s. Jaracz was at odds with GB member Lloyd Barry, who by all accounts was a decent man. As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation. They found Greenlees guilty, but judged him repentant, and assigned him to be a special pioneer, which entitled him to the usual SP stipend. This was obviously self-serving, since to expose Greenlees' misconduct to the public would have been fatal to the JW organization. After all, a homosexual pedophile does not develop those proclivities at age 72, but has been practicing such things since he was a young man, and Jehovah God would not anoint a homosexual pedophile as an elder, much less as a GB member. Furthermore, the Ray Franz incident was fresh in the GB's minds, and Franz had recently published "Crisis of Concience", and likely the GB wanted to take no chances of a repeat with Leo Greenlees. So they avoided disfellowshipping him and sent him off with a stipend. This situation with Leo Greenlees is positive proof that "Jehovah God" has nothing to do with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise. Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit". There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual. He did not marry until he was 48 years old, and his wife is reported to have told close friends that their marriage was never consummated. Knorr was obsessed with telling young men, especially new Bethelites, to avoid masturbation, which invokes clear shades of "methinks thou dost protest too much". And of course, his failure to remove Theodore Jaracz in the early 1950s as a Watchtower official but reassigning him to a lower position in the WTS organization strongly indicates that Knorr was soft on child sexual abuse. Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.
  11. 2 points
    @Arauna - "Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly. BUT you are twisting the facts: It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this. The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please." Yes, the world is full of atrocities and horrors, but the world does not offer eternal life – the organization does. Shouldn’t one’s focus be on how that will occur through an organization that is marked by some of the same atrocities found in the world? @Srecko Sostar - “I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.” @4Jah2me - "So get real, wake up, and stop looking for excuses in the outside Devil's world. Remember scripture, Don't tell your brother he has a straw in his eye, when you have a rafter in yours. = JW Org, Don't say how wicked the outside world is when the inside of JW Org is just as wicked." How will the Kingdom arrive, through the choices the world makes, or the choices each anointed one makes? John 17:17; Rev 14;5 The anointed leaders of the org. easily judge their brothers and sisters in Christ. The GB are not apostles, but uninspired men who “assume” they are allowed to make that decision. They have given the elders the swift ability to mark them and all who question their teachings, as spiritually “dead” for not conforming to their own bad choices, or for turning directly to Christ who can offer one eternal life. Micah 3:5; John 16:2; Rev 13:15 This is a more serious accusation than one losing their physical life at the hands of a corrupt worldly system. “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” John 6:63 The words the GB speak, are not full of life. Their historical record of bad choices proves it. Col 2:8 God doesn't erase their mistakes made while leading the flock, unless they repent and turn around. Which they haven't. Jer 23:32
  12. 2 points
    Arauna, you continue to revert back to entities outside of the organization to “compare” sins. 1 Pet 4:17 If this is the case, the organization is no better than any other. But if it truly was “Jehovah’s organization”, it should be better, shouldn’t it. After all, it boasts it is the way to spiritual salvation and “righteousness”. Righteous practices are so far removed from the GB's agenda when it comes to child abuse. God’s WORD judges His anointed people. 2 Pet 3:5-7 Since the GB choose to follow their own “words”, their ordinances concerning child abuse, your scriptures in James aptly applies…to them. 2 Pet 3:10; Jer 23:29 The prophet’s words are not so archaic that they do not apply to God’s people today. Rev 18:4-8
  13. 2 points
    It’s about time! If you were more astute, I’d have 1000 from you by now.
  14. 2 points
    What do think of a country where Doctors can be forced to do abortions? I can't accuse the country, Doctors can quit or take their business elsewhere. Criminals of war were just following orders because they thought sh:t rolled up hill, but you see, it doesn't.
  15. 2 points

    Permission to get baptized

    agreed. isn't that what was proposed in Tony's hypothetical situation? no mention of dedicating oneself to an organization either. or their parents according to Tony Morris.
  16. 2 points
    If you are talking about me, Arauna, I would like to hear those stories.. although it is written as an accusation to me personally, I assume you mean in a general sense about anybody. There is a saying in America, from an old TV show, that "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time". Secrecy is the breeding place of tyranny, both petty and gross, and the root of many injurious things. It covers up tyrannies, incompetence and malfeasance .... and protects judges from any accountability. It also hides things that SHOULD be made public, so that the general populace is in fear of SPECIFIC actions and consequences. Bad judges should have to have consequences equally punitive to their bad judgements. I think the system Jehovah set up thousands of years ago in ancient Israel is ..oh... what's the word I want to use ... oh yeah! .... PERFECT. The system we have now was made up from the fears of New York Lawyers. Having it done correctly, and having gross , embarrassing sins and crimes made public and notorious is a VERY good deterrent ...all by itself. Oh, by the way ... my first wife was seduced by another Brother, circa 1974, and he got away with if for YEARS, and was in good standing in the congregation married to her, because nobody realized what was really going on. When I blew the lid off of it with certified letters to all the congregations in the Richmond Virginia congregations, and New York ... only then was he disfellowshipped. Interestingly enough ... because our names are very phonetically similar, when it was announced I got blamed for it in about half the congregations I had gone to, as I was the "loose cannon", and he was a Pioneer, and ex-bethelite. That's what you get when you have secrecy. A totally screwed up Justice system.
  17. 2 points
    I like the description at 2Tim.2:17: "their word will spread like gangrene" (Gk γάγγραινα: gangraina). Doesn't seem to present any translation difficulty?
  18. 2 points
    JWs! WHY do you continually make the comparison of the GB to Moses, an inspired prophet who received messages directly from God? Moses spoke of the prophet to come, as God’s Son! It is HIS teachings that we are to adhere to: 17 “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.” Deut 18:17-19 If there were to be 7,8,12 men to lead God’s people in the remaining days as Moses did, where does Jesus Christ fit in? The organization has raised up another “Moses”; one who presents teachings that repeatedly fall short of pure truth. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, (the organization) that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Your “frail and imperfect men” sit in the seat of Moses. They have put themselves there, and are comfortable misleading all JWs to believe it. Now I clearly see a distinct connection of “false Messiahs” that deceive the “saints”/anointed and companions in the last days, as the organization’s GB. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (“elect” – “chosen by God” – Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:9) Matt 24:24 If they are to mislead God’s chosen people, they must also speak of Jesus and some truth, right? Paul warned that Jesus’ teachings would be twisted: 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. “other than the Jesus we preached” – the apostles never compared themselves to Moses. They spoke continually of Christ and the Father. “a different gospel” – the WT has become your safety net, your salvation. Never did the apostles preach “organization” as one’s salvation. On the contrary, they taught: “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12 These "frail and imperfect men" do not have a "hope" they will be in heaven - they state they WILL be in heaven. Gerrit Losch: “To appreciate the extent of Jehovah’s and Jesus’ trust in the faithful slave reflect on what he has promised its members. He has promised them immortality and incorruption. Soon, JUST BEFORE ARMAGEDDON the remaining members of the slave will be taken to heaven.” Are these men truly false messiahs? Yes. They have already judged themselves as worthy to rule in heaven. From what I read in the scriptures, that judgement is left in the hands of the true Messiah. Matt 25:14-30
  19. 2 points
  20. 1 point
    "The Truth" can have more than one meaning. For JW's this expression is understand only as Religious Truth according to WT Society Teachings. Please go above of JW's definition. :)) "The Truth" in context i using in our conversation includes Every Truth which is Truth In Itself, and which, if we are to include God in it, is acceptable to God and his principles. (Have in mind how God is above all Religions including WT Society)
  21. 1 point
  22. 1 point
    Lol maybe we should ask to explain the generation doctrine and 1914 as well... 😁😉
  23. 1 point
    Sure Aruna, whatever U say, U r so smart, I have no clue at all but U do. Still find amazing ur clueless responses 🤣🤣🤣
  24. 1 point
    Since this accusation was never proven, do you have supporting evidence that gives us concrete evidence? I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.
  25. 1 point
    I for one do, understand how society is looking at past allegations with today's laws. Not that society is better off with the laws made to protect, it just gives people a false sense of hope.
  26. 1 point
    Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly. BUT you are twisting the facts: It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. They judge the past according to the modern day secular laws that are now in place and according to current society habits. I grew up in the 1950s when these things were a taboo to talk about in society. AFTER the 1960s, with the sexual revolution, they started to talk about this subject in the secular press. When I worked for newspapers as a reporter in 1980s many of the first laws were in place in first world countries and court procedures were slowly refined until 2003. The inquiry that was done in Australia into more than 2000 organizations was done to close further legal gaps in the system.......... BUT these laws are not always enforced in many countries where there are laws. In UK rape gangs have been operating for years with a blind eye by law enforcement. Child services, both in USA and UK were exposed to be part of child sex rings and reporters and policemen who try to investigate it, are found dead. This is why I often mention the abuses of high society (the rich and powerful) and other levels of society who are known to marry 9 year old girls against their will - these people get different treatment than others. .... and JWs are judged harshly because they were not vigilant enough and tried to stop it from 1950s by keeping records. JWs are now retroactively tried in court with sensationalist press, when boy scouts etc just closed down and no court accountability given..... so it creates a false impression that JWs condone this. Other "guilty" members of society (some are teenage boys tried as adults) get many years in prison are branded for life and forced to live in villages away from society for the rest of their lives. But exposed child trafficking rings etc rape rings - nothing done. This is not Jehovahs justice...... and in the end ..... it will be Jehovah and Jesus who will judge every wicked thing done in secret whether the individual pretended to serve him or not. In the meantime, millions of children's lives are messed up...... and jehovah will judge those with mercy and love. If anyone here on this forum thinks for a moment that children are currently protected - they are very naive to this morally rotten world. Child services in many cases are now private companies and are in it for money. Sex trafficking of children is more lucrative than drug trafficking...... and much more prevalent than we can even imagine. I disagree with the assumption that we can understand the mind of these children rapists...... they are so Satanistic.... we cannot imagine the lengths these people will go to and how far beyond a conscience they are..... and they are amongst us ..... and sometimes they pretend to be our moral leaders in society. They are judges, political leaders, military, FBI, MI5, etc etc....where they have more power and resources to cover up their activities ....and the making of money. Internet porn has exploited children and made them more vulnerable...... The new UN curriculum (forced upon all schools in the West) now sexualizes children at a tender age and is preparing the way for LGBTQ.....P. We are living in last days where any form of morality is becoming something of the past...... Sexual exploitation of children once was a spoken taboo - soon to be openly practiced by anyone who wishes to do so. Chidren are being married off legally in many countries as we speak. In Germany a judge threw out a case where a 10 year old was married off. This now has set a precedent: police will no longer arrest perpetrators who exploit 10 year olds because this is now regarded as marriageable age. Muslim laws are eroding the old western laws. We are going back to the time before jehovah gave laws to the Israelites. Like the Canaanites we will see openly child exploitation and even child murder is returning. In Africa- the practice of using child body parts in witchcraft medicine is back in full scale. Recently I saw a mother crying. She found her shepard boy still half alive with half his brain removed, his sexual organs etc removed. If this shocks you..... I hope it did. This is the reality of the world we are living in now. Satan is rampant and people with no morals are doing what they like. There is a semblance of law and order but underneath it all morality is falling apart. People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this. The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please. People here do not understand why I talk about the worldly legal system and its double standards..... Well look at the headline above...... JW opposers are gloating because we are being used as a target by this very worldly system which protects other groups. Yes - we will be judged by the world and Jehovah. The one, often serves injustice - the other is just and really exists..... which one's verdicts will stand forever?
  27. 1 point
  28. 1 point
    Let me help you out with that link I had provided from your organization's website. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200021878#h=1:0 "Also called 144,000; Anointed; Body of Christ; Bride of Christ; Chosen Ones; Elect; Holy Nation; Israel of God; Kingdom Class; Little Flock; New Creation; New Nation; Royal House; Royal Priesthood; Sanctuary Class; Sons of Levi; Spirit Begotten; Spiritual Israel; Spiritual Sons)"
  29. 1 point
    Hence I feel the scriptures were / are written for the Anointed, not for the earthly class. I feel that only the Anointed should fully understand scripture as they are 'one' with Christ. The rest of us are just the other sheep. I like the scripture about 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' The 'Jew' being the Anointed class, the ones clinging being the earthly class.
  30. 1 point
    Would dying by refusing a blood transfusion be suicide?
  31. 1 point
    Where never is heard a discouraging word and the skys are not cloudy all day. He’s just getting started. See comment on the other thread: “Come, come. This is not a gentlemans’ club. The only gentleman here is @JW Insider, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more. His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him, It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip. Furthermore, my place is enshrined here by none other than @The Librarian herself (that old hen). It was her idea—not mine—to put me on a thread entitled TrueTom vs the Apostates. I protested. I didn’t want the job. I don’t go out of my way to pick fights with these characters. My protest fell on deaf ears. So I tackled the job with such ferocity that the entire thread was thrown into the abyss and I had to wear a Scarlet Letter, same as Hester Pryine—mine for “abuse.” (hers for “adultery”) Two years later the experience proved the germ of an ebook, “TrueTom vs the Apostates!” https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311
  32. 1 point
    No, my feelings are not mixed, everyone is entitled to their thoughts about something, the difference is are you going to make a lot of noise wanting to convince others of your thoughts. I do not think Splane is deliberately lying. I think he believes what he is saying is the truth. That's your opinion. Not mine.
  33. 1 point
    Water as symbol of God's Spirit. By this, what Jesus told, this "inspirational water" has The Source in Jesus (and God). Well, it would be normal, and not mental issue, if somebody come with claim how he/she is "inspired". :))
  34. 1 point
    Lovely.... almost sounds Jewish in its presentation.
  35. 1 point
    Just want to say thank you for sharing! 🙋‍♀️
  36. 1 point
    ... and failed catastrophically, too. :)))) I can't recall what verse in Genesis about Adam and Eve in Paradise speaking how God gave to Adam authority over Eve. I am not sure in what direction you going with next sentence: .... and with this: After this comment: I am not sure what ideology, idea you promote? or you just made parody on issue :))
  37. 1 point
    I would go back to fundamental reasons of that we talking about. No matter do we talking about revision, better understanding, new light, simplicity ......etc. point is this: In what mental state has been all this individuals who made first, second, third, and so on with numbers, doctrine and then revision of that same doctrine? Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. It seems how all authors and all who approved what was written in WT publications had mental issues and that is main reason for revision of doctrines. Just repeating Tom's idea with new wording :)))
  38. 1 point

    Permission to get baptized

    no mention of dedicating oneself to an organization either. I believe it goes without saying. “And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom.” However, I have come around to seeing your point. I will tell Bethel to award diplomas to elders upon being appointed. They obviously are the ones qualified to do it. Not only do they specialize in advanced and applied Bible study for 150 years, but they have the added qualification of showing that they can DO something with it, something that is often lacking in more traditional schools of higher learning. What is a diploma? Essentially, is it anything more than a paper testifying that you have successfully answered someone’s 80 questions? So why should you ask the questions? What in the world do you have to offer? No. They qualify to ask the questions. And award the diplomas, should they ever choose to.
  39. 1 point
    Not true at all! I have already discounted about half of what you say here.
  40. 1 point
    Ray Devereaux


    I can agree in certain aspects of this comment. The 16th century protestant reformation began a good concept to break away from the papacy and the church fathers distinct preservation of the old standard of keeping the bible from the public. It was unfortunate that the dominant church sought to execute those like Martin Luther and William Tyndale that made any attempts to have the people read and understand the bible for themselves to see for themselves the mistakes of the church. I personally respect Tyndale for that brave move that eventually got him killed by the church. Another place I can agree with tearing down the old house to build a new house is exactly what Russell did in his day. He decided to forgo his parent’s teachings and that of the ranking Christendom of his day to start from scratch to understand the bible as Jesus spoke of it to the first century Christian. A revision to the view of the reformer movement but with a better understanding that is placed before today’s society.
  41. 1 point
    I have no problem with the basic premise that if a person does not obey the rules, he has a reasonable expectation of punishment or expulsion. from whatever group you are a part of. Let's say a dedicated, "sworn" person, such as a Police Officer, breaks the rules about taking bribes. He lives in the old Soviet Union, as do all of his relatives. He should have known better, because his Father was a policeman, and his father before him. Not only that, but his mother was a police administrator in the internal affairs division of the police department. His aunts, uncles, nephews, and even his wife works for the police detective bureau as an analyst and statistician. His two children are Police Cadets. They are all loyal to a fault to the USSR, and pledge their allegiance to it. So ... our theoretical Police Officer breaks the rules, and gets sentenced losing his job, and three years in a Soviet Gulag. Even in the former Soviet Union his wife, children, and relatives could still visit him, talk to him, send and receive letters, and communicate with him during his punishment. Even Khrushchev, and others were not afraid that he would corrupt his family's public service tradition and lead them down the path of corruption and bribes. A basic human right ... is to have the best relationship with your family possible. When you punish a man's family and extended family for something he did ... in our case mandating the shunning of family members ... the Old Soviet Union then has the moral high ground. Normal people EVERYWHERE understand this intuitively.
  42. 1 point

    Favorite Music

    Time doesn't change, jw's aren't allowed to love music. For you on the fence jw's, here is another song of encouragement...
  43. 1 point
    Yep .... it's a problem all right ..... We will probably get more respect and attention when we start carrying rifles, rocket propelled grenades, bomb vests, and "new light" includes 72 virile, nubile virgins. Preferably with gymnastic abilities. I talked to some Muslims one time about converting, and they got really excited when they found out I could fly a 747. Can you fly .mp4
  44. 1 point
    Audrey Hepburn doing photo-shoots for the publicity of ‘Breakfast at Tiffany’s’ in 1960.
  45. 1 point
    Hmm! Trying to justify yourself like a pedophile would by looking for excuses to say it's not wrong. The same can be applied to anyone with a huge age difference.
  46. 1 point
  47. 1 point


    @JW Insider did not write TrueTom v Apostates. He did not write Dear Mr. Putin. I wrote them. There were portions that I forwarded to him for comment. To that extent, he had input. His comments were most helpful and every time I ignored them I came to regret it. I got all excited about a statistical factoid from the follow-up Aussie case study. He told me it wasn’t so watertight as I had imagined. He was right and I downgraded it to a suggestive pointer. He said that there were a ton of errors—typos and punctuation atrocities—in the manuscript and I was later aghast at how abundant they were. It took me forever to get them out. Even now there are probably a few—but it is time for new things. Even his instinct about my describing the old bound volumes as the family gods—bulky, toted everywhere, and very seldom used—I came to agree with. I was just being self-indulgent, and no one had ever described them that way but me. Why put anyone off unnecessarily? His biggest contribution was when I ran by him beforehand the letter that I submitted to the Philly Inquirer in response to their first of what proved to be four incendiary articles. This was a big moment for me. The topic was white-hot, I had never seen anyone not run from it, and I didn’t want to mess it up. For all I knew, they might print it. I respected his insights and incorporated most of them. That letter became the core of what ultimately became a chapter in TrueTom vs the Apostates, “Four Incendiary Articles.” https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/four-incendiary-articles.html So yes, he has good judgement and instincts about what I consulted him for. Yes, his advice proved valuable. Yes, I am grateful to him for it. No, he did not write any of either book. Our cooperative role may expand. We came across The Librarian, that old biddy, bending over dusting Gibbon’s “Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire” on a lower shelf in her library. JWI and I toppled the entire bookshelf on her and squashed her flat. You should not expect to hear from her anymore except for some automated posts she may have previously submitted. I planted a story that a California law was going to kill the internet. Admin fell for it, and he sold the entire forum to me for only a dollar. JWI agreed to come in for just 50 cents. If I let him do his thing, going on and on and on about some egghead things that I don’t really care about—and after all, he did help me with the bookshelf—I will gain his good will forever. Yes, it is chronology he is into. But he writes at such length that everyone falls asleep except for other eggheads. He has done the research to expound on what he does, as others have done the research to disagree with him, even the semi-resident titan who doesn’t wish to be described that way. I gather that our view is not the one that predominates in the mainstream scholarly world, but this does not unduly concern me. I am too used to headlines that read: “Everything you thought you knew about such-and-such is wrong.” Matters of scientific scholarship can and have turned on a dime. Besides, even if his most drastic thought proved true, it would amount to no more that a (colossal) misread of the bus schedule. It would not mean that the bus is not coming.
  48. 1 point
  49. 1 point
    Yea, I will not believe any person who says they cannot get out of JW......it is pretty easy.....
  50. 1 point

    2019 Annual Meeting wishes

    Thank you for your expressions. I wanted to respond a little sooner than this but I ran out of time. Here are my thoughts on some of the things you mention. Just my two cents 😀. I used to think the same way, but just because it says update, doesn't mean the actual content is changed (like different wording of a scripture for example) but it is more to do with technical updates to make things compatible with constant changes and updates in the way various operating systems work, similar to windows system, Firefox etc. It is normal for any websites to do that. If there are any doctrinal or organizational changes, then we are usually made aware of them in a WT study. That would be a cool thing for those who like to dig deep.I noticed sometimes there are references to further reading, but not often. I don't know, but perhaps because everything is being simplified, sort of like we've already researched all the subjects, so no need to keep bringing it up, time to move on kind of thing. The publications with all those references are still available for anyone to read and research though. I understand some of the things you are saying regarding this subject. I especially agree with your last two points. I suppose striving for hours is an incentive some people need. It would be great if the friends would put in pioneer hours without actually pioneering. But we mustn't forget that if a publisher signs up to be a pioneer, then they know what they are doing, they know they are committing themselves to a certain promise. The problem is why are they doing it. Is it because they need an incentive, or is it because they like the title? If I am not mistaken, there is no specific regulation which says you can't do those things you have described. For example when going door to door in a remote village in one Easter European country, the brothers do not wear a tie because the locals would get confused and suspicious, and not be open to discussions. It is always a good idea to adapt our preaching according to local circumstances. We should never be stuck on just one way. With the counting...I read somewhere that JWs keep the best and most reliable records. If there is any kind of worldly survey carried out, for example with regard to the numbers (members) of a particular religion, they always seem to trust the JW numbers the most. Haha, that would be funny. I don't think that will ever happen because it's too judgmental. But I understand your point! I think it's obvious that the reaction to a new Bible would be very positive. Therefor I don't think this was so much a request for information, but a confirmation of a "work well done". However the questions you propose, are on a different level and would require an awful lot of work sifting through the submissions. But I agree. I think JW Insider mentioned something about a "suggestion box" option on our website. Or even a "ask questions" box. I think both would be a very good idea. At the moment as you say, it is left up to the CO's to give some kind of report. But the thing is, many friends do not like to bring an issue up which they think might be viewed controversial or even rebellious. I know I don't. But if these comments could be made anonymously on the website, then I am sure the organization would get a much better idea of the state of the congregations and friends. The problem is some kind of mechanism would have to be put into effect that prevented just ANYONE from commenting. That way people who were merely trouble makers (opposers etc.) wouldn't clog up the whole site, or give the wrong impression that the friends were having these problems, whereas it would really be ex- witnesses. To be honest we don't have that problem in my congregation. There are many excellent auxiliary answers given. I suppose it depends on the congregation. Although we are all united, each congregation has its unique style/character. That's why you get some people "shopping" for a congregation they like, if they are not happy in the one they are at. I agree completely! I always go to sleep when they do that. I don't see the point. I think that this is already going on to a certain point isn't it? Also I know that things have been simplified where there are no longer room cleaners, each person must clean their own room for example. I think something like that exists in the USA. https://jjha.community/about/ But I don't think it is organized by the society. Yes. Don't you just love it when an older single brother with no children tries to give you counsel about yours? Oh yes, the notorious beard issue! 🐵 A few weeks ago, in my mum's congregation, a young ministerial servant decided to grow a beard. My mum told me that the elders told him that if he wants to keep on carrying the mikes he will have to shave the beard off. This is in a country where beards are socially acceptable, and in some congregations there are elders with beards. Not many, but I know one personally. I told my mum that usually it is up to the body of elders to decide because they should know the territory well and know whether it would offend an outsider or not. She then told me that 1. my dad (an elder) wasn't told about it, and 2. there is absolutely no aversion to beards by the public as many people wear one. I asked her if this young brother was a "rebellious" type. She said not at all. Logically, he must have been qualified in order to become a min. servant. So as you can see, there is already a problem because certain elders have taken it upon themselves to decide on the matter without consulting the whole body. Who knows, these elders may not like beards, so it becomes personal, rather than theocratic. They have the Co's visit right now, so she told me she would let me know what happens. The other thing is, which I find odd, is that apparently if he shaves it off, they won't address the issue (!) I feel like telling the brother, don't shave it off, because this issue needs to be handled properly first. And once it's handled properly, and they still ask him to shave it off, then that is a different matter. As regards the photos, yes, I agree, on the one hand we are told in the WT that beards are ok in some cultures, but then on the other hand shaving a beard off is used as an example of spiritual progress. It confuses people. (P.S. Quite a large number of elders I know grow a beard while on vacation, and don't mind posting pictures on Instagram or FB, so they are not hiding it, but then once they go back to the meeting they shave it off). I will comment on the doctrinal part next time. (when I have more time).

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