ARchiv@L

@ComfortMyPeople
thank you for your comments. its really a privillage to learn from years and from others (become examples for us).
you remember the verse in the book of Daniel that (at the times of the end) (Daniel 12:4)
“. . .and the true knowledge will become abundant. . .”
this is something that many people do not understand or not experience, thats why Jws knock on the doors....
 
 
am sure if in the future there will be another "understanding" of the verses that have to do with generation, it will be so logical that we all we will understand it. for the moment we must understand what we have. when the time comes for sure we will understand more !!
do not forget that many prophets wanted to know more details about Jehovah's purpose, but it was not the TIME for the understanding to be given. so (as in the old days), we wait and see.

 
 

I specially agree with the sentence: “…faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.” But we are still anchored to this doctrine -1914 date- for more than a century. Does it show humility?
Could you show scriptural proof that thing as the Gentile Times has something to do with Daniel 4? Reread please my bullet points about “violates the five fingers”.
I feel gratitude toward Jehovah because He has blessed Russell and others to discover the basic foundational, core teachings that are the framework of our doctrines.
But, regarding dates and prophecies… no one become accurate. Remember, by decades they thought the pyramid was a channel from God!
Now, some one could say: “still remains 1914 no matter they were wrong in all its meaning”.
But to base ALL our eschatology in a date not only is risky, but contrary the scriptures.
Think for a moment. Do you really need this date at all to serve Jehovah with all your soul? Did Abraham need a date? No. Perhaps first Christians? Neither. Why you and me?
I really needed a date when I was young. But this date made me quite fanatic. I used to preach “the end is at hand.” I used to focus on earthquakes and wars. What lack of appealing had my preaching work!
Now here I am. Still preaching with all my soul. I’m not focusing in past dates as the beginning of the Kingdom. I’m eagerly expecting the future “adventum” of this kingdom. My ministry, sure as yours, is more attractive, more focused in kingdom blessings or the beauty of Bible.
I sincerely believe that, sooner or later, at Jehovah due time, this 1914 doctrine will disappear. The later the worse.
By the way. I must admit that I’ve had the privilege to meet a lot of humble brothers. The troops (I can’t find the English word for normal no privileged persons). As it rises in our organization, I’ve had more difficulties finding this humility. Perhaps that would explain that some cherished doctrines are so difficult to remove.

A  THANKS  to  Sister  'Bible Speaks'  for  the  2 links !   Self-searching  was  of  course  a  quickly  idea   -  But  I  wait  of  a  special  answer  for  these  beautiful  Bible - wrapper  which  I  posted.  Seems  so,  it  doesn't  give  that  online   thats  sorry,  yes !     But  the  other  Bible - bindings  also  nice,  more  for  on  the  way....
( For  home  its  nicer  such  a  book - wrapper. )
But  I  still  saw  other  Bible  covers....   here  the  links :    / many  online  links  you  can  find 
Look  if  you  like  it,
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=bible+covers
http://www.niyae.com/Footprints-Bible-Cover
thats  a  special, cheap  Bible  cover !   $ 9,95  -
But  its  not  comparing  with  a  stabil  book-wrapper....  thats  different.

Many  JW  knowing  this  nice  poem....  'Footprints'  -----
You  can  look  to  many  Bible-covers  and  order...  ENJOY !
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=bible+covers
That  is  for  all  JW -   without  using  a  tablet....   All  others  not  need  or  we  have  long  time  mostly  a  leather  Bible - cover  with  a  zipper  or  similar !
 

Do  you  really  understand  my  comment,  dear  @ARchiv@L  ??   I  am  NOT  everybody...  and  I  WAS  'logged  in'  until  to  your  last  posted  picture,  but  only  8  towns  we  can  see,  try  it.   I  can't  write  the  town  Hamburg  into  the  empty  line....  The  curser  had  an  arrow  and  NOT  a  vertical  line  to  write,  like  here  by  comments,  etc. -  Its  blocked  to  write  a  town  there !   So  I  wrote,  maybe,  Hamburg  has  NO  special  Conventions  just  now...   But  I  want  try  inform  me  more  exactly,  when  our  Librarian  don't  know  the  answer  and  the  reason
Wish  you  a  nice  weekend  but  NOT  so  hot  days ! 

thank you very much it is really funny !!!!
 

hahahhahaha!    I hope the end comes before the conventions ! 
otherwise, it means that we have 1 more year to spend ONLINE all of us !!!   
(if our health permits of course) 
 

perhaps the "log in" is only for those who will go to the conventions that year, and not for everybody, 

Thank you,  dear @ARchiv@L... yes, I know your posted jw.org pages. After getting my password I logged in as Publisher, all ok.  After page-changing I saw also your here posted towns...  but NOT any German town and only 2 languages, English and French, not German. In the free place, I couldn't write my own town, only click on the town's which jw.org put in   I try inform me next week, whats up with German towns?  Or maybe,  just now no special Conventions in Germany... 

Convention Cities 
(as they appear, after ‘log in’ the official page)
 for 2018.
Port Moresby
Colombo
Lima
Maputo
Lviv
Tbilisi
Oslo
Toronto



 

well, I can not explain that, but for what am sure, I never had problems with Librarian's pages!


 

well, I can not explain that, but for what am sure, I never had problems with Librarian's pages!


 

Convention Cities 
(as they appear, after ‘log in’ the official page)
 for 2018.
Port Moresby
Colombo
Lima
Maputo
Lviv
Tbilisi
Oslo
Toronto



 

well, I can not explain that, but for what am sure, I never had problems with Librarian's pages!


 

@ARchiv@L Was there an announcement I missed? 

VERY  GOOD  JOB.....   AS  EVER   -  THANK  YOU  !!!! 
PS.  I  logged  in....  but  not  for  Germany  just  now ?  curious...

no, I simply see that the 2018 page is active .... 

the JW inside must be too, with all these notes, making for all of us ! I say thanks, for all the good research.

 
 

I’m exhausted following this topic.
I think this thread about 1914 reflects very well the negative aspects reflected in these words:
(1 Timothy 1:4) “…nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith…”
1914. Only available to intelligent people.
When I was a teenager I felt very proud with myself because I was able to explain by heart the seven times prophecy. Perhaps only a third in my congregation, or less, could explain this reasonably well.
Nowadays, I doubt if a few of the brotherhood could express intelligibly why we believe in the importance of this date. So, what about this basic principle?
(1 Corinthians 1:26) “…For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, …” I’m amazed with the struggle with different technics to determine the accuracy or lack of exactitude of 1914. Even astronomic calculus with specialized software! Thanks, JWInsider! Plus a lot of historical and archeological skills.
And, by the way. The humbler and less able to explain “deep” ideas like this, the more faith I see that these brothers have. More than me.
1914. A polysemic date.
JWInsider has explained to the satiety that from its very beginning this date was conceived with other and changing meanings. Perhaps the most important change was to think that Christ’s presence started in 1874, and 1914 would mark the end of the human domination on Earth. Our present understanding is, as you all know, that Jesus started as king and his presence at that date.
1914. We need more than the Bible
But other post, recently, has put it very clear, and I fully agree:
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial … so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work…” But now, it turns out that I must learn Archeology and History to determine the exact date Jerusalem was conquered 2500 years ago!
1914. In opposition to the spirit and the letter of Jesus’s words.
The advice in the following passages is to live each day as if the Master could arrive in any moment. No trying to determine the length of a period of time, in order to calculate the prolongation of the “last days”,
(Matthew 24:42) “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming…” But we officially believe Jesus really came in 1914, and from this date he is present… in fact ruling! The idea of two different kinds of arrivals (1914 as king, later as executor), this differentiation is not in the Bible. There is only ONE arrival.
 1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith
*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers ***
Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.
In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914?
1914. Violates the “five fingers” process.
As I’ve expressed in other post. If we take verses on each side of the Bible we are incurring in a real danger of twisting the Scriptures. Let’s see.
·        What scriptural proof is there to consider Nebuchadnezzar type of Christ? ·        What scriptural proof is there to think the Nab. kingship represents God’s kingdom? ·        What proof is there to think the madness of the king represents the situation with God’s kingdom? ·        With what authority can we apply the rule of one day for a year in Num 14:34 or Eze 4:6 to Daniel’s prophecy? ·        Could we sure the term “times” in Daniel 4 and in Lu. 21:24 apply to the same period? o   What’s the basis for this? o   Does not it seem to fit word for word Lu 21:24 and Rev. 11:2? o   Why, then, to base all our knowledge about the last days in a mere possibility? 1914 Alternatives. First Century fulfillment?
JWInsider has pointed out the idea that Jesus was crowned in the first century. Even postulating that Revelation 12 was fully fulfilled at that time. I think that to consider that important parts of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century is going to the other extreme. It’s my humble opinion.
Yes, it’s true that Revelation mention some past happenings, well direct or indirectly.
(Revelation 1:5, 6) “… who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests…” And mention some of the developments as if they had already happened
(Revelation 11:15) “…The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ…” But we could reach to another explanation WITHOUT HANGING in 1914. This better explained in another place. Suffice for now to think that these happenings took place neither in the first century nor in 1914.
What problems arise with the first century fulfillment of Revelation?
Rev 11:15-18 links the start of the kingdom to the resurrection time. These verses are a preamble of the next chapters, including the vision of chapter 12.
(Revelation 11:15, 18) “…you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king …and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones…” (Revelation 12:10-17) “…Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom …So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, ...” There are remaining ones because some of them are on heaven while other are still enduring on earth. So, the resurrection has already begun in Rev. 12 time
But the resurrection didn’t happen in the first century:
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) “…we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death …that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first…”  
How many times was David crowned?
·        (2 Samuel 2:4) “…Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David as king over the house of Judah…”
·        (2 Samuel 5:3) “…So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Jehovah. Then they anointed David as king over Israel.”
In the same way, why could not be possible to view Jesus crowned in the first century, when he went to heaven, as many verses seems to probe and as JWInsider has aptly showed us?
And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time?
I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why?
Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory.
I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions.
And, finally, in this way, we have that it’s perfectly possible the modern time fulfillment of Revelation (above all chapter 12), the coronation of Jesus in 33 (mainly, but not only over his congregation ) and modern times coronation when Jehovah order Him: “conquer your enemies”
Please, please, please… it isn’t necessary 1914 at all! What if the coronation, most of the Revelation fulfillment is still future? Well, this is theme for other day…

I fully agree! I share the feelings of many if I say that JWInsider  has helped us to think a lot deeper. And his  commentaries reveal a lot of knowledge! Thanks JWI for sharing

"Many will rove about and the true knowledge will become abundant".
Thanks JWI and ComfortMYPeople for this exchange. This is also roving about.
 However, as Archive@L had said earlier quoting 1 Cor 13:12  "at present I know partially but then I shall know accurately" .  Most Bible students acknowledge that understanding of any prophecy is confirmed only after its fulfiilment. But JWI kindly reminded us of the scripture in 1 Peter 1:10-12 about making a diligent inquiry and a careful search and continuing our investigation. ( So we must not get tired of the rumble and tumble. We seniors are pretty tough! Smile! Notice the energy of JWI and how well he writes?  If you miss me, though, I might be getting a beauty sleep.)
The faithful slave has just adjusted something surrounding when the anointed came out of Babylon the Great. There will also be other adjustments.   
Comfort, that was well set out and a good synopsis.                 

I enjoyed your exposition of the all these issues related to 1914, Revelation, and the kingship of Jesus, especially the areas that differed from the view I have been holding. I'll get to those issues shortly, but I wanted to say how important is this particular point you just made. It may also provide a starting place to help explain why the view I hold is a bit confusing.
First, it shows that Christians in the first century had NOT come to our present understanding of the 70 weeks. This would seem, at first, to contradict the verses just previously quoted:
(1 Peter 1:10-12) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.
The idea I get from this is that many were "making a diligent inquiry" and realized that when it came to chronology ("the particular time or season") there was no way they would have figured it out. Not even an angel could have figured it out. And THAT must even include the time when the Messiah would suffer. And yet the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah, as expanded by Daniel into 70 "sevens of" years was the most famous of the time prophecies about when the Messiah should suffer.
(Daniel 9:25, 26) 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.. . .
As an aside, it would have been just as accurate to translate this as "Messiah the Ruler" rather than "Messiah the Leader." The NLT says: "Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One —comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times." or NIV: "“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
But back to the point. I think that after Jesus was manifested in the world at the last days, that Christians are now in a time period when time and dates are meaningless. As 1 Peter says, it was nothing that anyone could really figure out ahead of time, not even angels. All they could do was wait. Jesus arrival marked the "Last Days" according to Hebrews 1:1,2:
1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days [Now, in these last days] he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
From that point in time, we are all in the same situation until:
(Hebrews 1:6-2:1) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” . . . 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation . . .  13 But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”? . . .2 That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things we have heard, so that we never drift away.
I don't think I need to repeat that Hebrews 1 uses royal imagery both here and in verses I skipped. It mentions ministers doing obeisance to him just as a king has. It mentions a throne. It mentions a scepter, it mentions a Kingdom, it mentions being anointed with oil, it mentions sitting on a throne while God places all enemies at his feet. The context also mentions garments, and mentions a crown. These are all "kingly" and "royal" concepts that should make us pay attention and never drift away.
So it doesn't matter that there may be more to his ongoing kingship, and more occasions where one could say "Jehovah has become King" or "Jesus has become King." The point is that time and chronology are no longer important to the equation. If they do become important then we are probably missing something in our Christianity and faith. We know he came, we know he will come again. We also know that he is present with us all the days until the end of the system. (Matthew 28:20) Jesus mentioned that presence starting back in 33 and said it would continue until the synteleia. (Technically, if the Watchtower were correct about the synteleia, or conclusion, then Jesus presence would STOP in 1914. Fortunately, the conclusion of the system of things is a future event, not something that started in 1914.)
Another way to look at the same point is to notice how Jesus transitioned from the sign seen upon Jerusalem to the imagery of the "second coming." Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
That's a bit hard to square with our current view of time. It's a better fit for what Peter and Psalms says about 1,000 years being the same as a day with Jehovah.
But this is also why I see Revelation speaking of things that were to be considered "as good as if they had been completely fulfilled" during the time they were first read by Christians. All the things happening to them, both good and bad, were evidences that the end of all things was already upon them (1 Pet 4:7). That NOW was the day of salvation. At any moment "immediately" Christ could be seen coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Only if they believed strongly that he was currently the king, with all the authority and power, above all other kings and authorities in heaven and on earth, could that faith be strong enough to carry them through great tribulations and even unto death.
So, the reason I make application to the first century, even of items in Revelation chapters 6 through 12, especially, is because physical, human times and dates were not important. The power of Jehovah and his Christ were powers that moved beyond time. They each could be referred to with names like: the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the One who was, who is, and who is coming.
From a more technical point of view, I would say that it's much easier to explain several of these parts of Revelation as occurring closer to the final manifestation of Jesus. I agree that all these events in the first century continue on to a greater fulfillment when the Kingdom accomplishes the purpose of His will.
(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Another aside that some might find interesting is that we have often said that Jesus must sit and wait at God's right hand until God has made his enemies a stool for his feet, based on:
(Hebrews 10:12, 13) . . .But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.
This would be another damaging element to the 1914 doctrine, because Jesus would have to continue waiting until the last enemy death is brought to nothing according to 1 Cor 15:26. Therefore Jesus is still patiently waiting at God's right hand, and nearly the entire basis for explaining why Jesus didn't become king until 1914 comes crumbling.
 

I remember this .. as a child ..... 

*** kr chap. 2 p. 15 par. 10 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
As its full title suggested, the journal Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence was deeply concerned with prophecies pertaining to Christ’s presence. The faithful anointed writers who contributed to that journal saw that Daniel’s prophecy regarding the “seven times” had a bearing on the timing of the fulfillment of God’s purposes regarding the Messianic Kingdom. As early as the 1870’s, they pointed to 1914 as the year when those seven times would end. (Dan. 4:25; Luke 21:24) Although our brothers of that era did not yet grasp the full significance of that marked year, they proclaimed what they knew far and wide, with long-lasting effects.
 
*** kr chap. 2 p. 28 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
1876
An article by C. T. Russell, published in the Bible Examiner, points to 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times
 
*** kr chap. 5 p. 50 pars. 5-6 The King Shines Light on the Kingdom ***
As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit?
 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6.
 
 
 

the JW inside must be too, with all these notes, making for all of us ! I say thanks, for all the good research.

 
 

Original writer here. Please delete this article as it is plaguirised. You'll find the original on HubPages:
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