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  1. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to Anna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    @JW Insider thanks for your reply. 
    So I wonder, could we say Jesus became an uncrowned king in 33 CE and a crowned king in 1914? The definition of “uncrowned”  being :“having royal rank or power without occupying the royal office”. Wouldn't this be scripturally compatible?
  2. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to JW Insider in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    That's how I understand it too. Jesus had not yet been crowned because he had not suffered death and been seated at the right hand of God.
    (Hebrews 2:9) . . .But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .
    So it would be some time after suffering death, and his resurrection. When he sits at God's right hand he is at the right hand of the "throne of Majesty." He is therefore "ruling as king" with Jehovah.
    (Hebrews 8:1) . . .he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
    We also know this because Paul changes the word "sit at my right hand" to "rule as king." So Paul thinks of them as equivalent.
    (1 Corinthians 15:25-27) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.”. . .
    Also, in Hebrews it is a given that Jesus, from Judah, would be a king, after the manner of Melchizedek:
    (Hebrews 7:1, 2) 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”
    So now that Jesus is part of the enthronement setup at God's right hand, he is also, therefore, ruling as king.
    Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians, above, that Jesus would go on conquering in the midst of his enemies up until the last enemy is conquered, we also have an image in Revelation like this:
    (Revelation 6:1, 2) 6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.
    This mention of his crown in Revelation 6 is given a lead-up in the entire 5th chapter, which is a bit long to quote completely, but notice the highlighted verses:
    5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” . . .  5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
    6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne . . . a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, . . . . . . . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
    11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne . . . 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power . . . .”
    13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.
    If the elders fell down and worshipped the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne, then Jesus, at this point must have a position of kingship granted by Jehovah. We can find out what that time was by going back to Paul.
    (Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet . . .
    (Philippians 2:8-11) . . .to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
    Note that Philippians, here, reads like a commentary of Revelation 5. It explains why (his sacrificial death) even those in heaven now openly "bend the knee" to Jesus to the glory of God.
  3. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to Anna in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?
  4. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to bruceq in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    Interesting never thought about doing google search on what people are searching for. I wonder what web site comes up first if you search not just "Last Days" but for "Prophecy", Armageddon", "God's Kingdom" and of course "Ransom Sacrifice"? Then after that search under :"God's Name", "Who go to heaven", "What happens when you die", "Why does God allow suffering" and so forth...I wonder which web site comes up first, second and so forth?  Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20.
    “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about,  and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Dan. 12:4.
     "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven,  and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue  and people." Rev. 14:6
    So is this attributed to a "higher power - divine intervention"?   Well there are over 30,000 religions and hundreds of religious websites yet JW.ORG is first in these search words  and they are a tiny religion compared to the mainstream ones. Who are the ones preaching the "good news of the Kingdom in all the earth"? Well the search brings up JW.ORG. Mt. 24:14. And what website is translated into more languages than any other and would thus identity the true religion and fulfill prophecy?  I showed this to my doubtful Bible study last night and he is now convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones preaching about the Kingdom in "all the earth" {internet covers all the earth}  as the prophecy says!!!
  5. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to JW Insider in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E. John 6:15 does not contradict the rest of the Bible at all.  As you know, John 6:15 says the following, along with a bit of context:
    (John 6:12-17) 12 But when they had eaten their fill, he said to his disciples: “Gather together the fragments left over, so that nothing is wasted.” 13 So they gathered them together and filled 12 baskets with fragments left over by those who had eaten from the five barley loaves. 14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.” 15 Then Jesus, knowing that they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again to the mountain all alone. 16 When evening fell, his disciples went down to the sea, 17 and boarding a boat, they set out across the sea for Ca·perʹna·um. By now it had grown dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them.
    This particular crowd may have wanted to make him king based on the fact that he could provide earthly things, such as food, and as you already pointed out, we know that Jesus would later say, in John 18:
    (John 18:36, 37) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, . . .
    Also, notice that Jesus did not condemn a different crowd who would also declare him king, and Jesus even helped set up the scenario:
    (Matthew 21:1-9) 21 When they got close to Jerusalem and arrived at Bethʹpha·ge on the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them: “Go into the village that is within sight, and you will at once find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If someone says anything to you, you must say, ‘The Lord needs them.’ At that he will immediately send them.” 4 This actually took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet, who said: 5 “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you, mild-tempered and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’” 6 So the disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them. 7 They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road, while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: “Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!”
    This is a low-cost version of what the people of that time period termed a "PAROUSIA." As the New World Translation Appendix stated:
    *** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
    Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”
    This type of royal visitation (parousia) often took the form of a parade with joyous crowds and fanfare. Of course, to a disobedient province, such a visitation (parousia) could also include a display of judgment against enemies of the state.
    This is mostly true. Russell used the name Watch Tower for the primary corporation for nearly 40 years, incorporated officially for more than 30 of those years. The People's Pulpit, of course, was just an alternative name for the purpose of owning property in New York that the Pennsylvania corporation hadn't been set up for. (It could have been expanded for that purpose, but Russell had personal reasons to move all money out of Pennsylvania during his divorce.) But Russell only used that alternative name for 7 years before he died. Later it was changed from People's Pulpit [of New York] to "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society [of New York]"
    Russell continued to rely on a chronological system that promoted each of the following dates as specially marked in prophecy or predicted in prophecy. Almost all of them were still distinctly considered Biblically significant, and still being published "in print" in the publications until at least a decade after Russell died.
    1776 1780 1798 1799 1800 1829 1833 1840 1844 1846 c.1859 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1878 1879 1881 1910 c.1911 1912 1914 1915 1918 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death) 1920 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death) So, tell me again, how Russell relied only on what the Scripture showed that made the 1914 date "scripturally sound."
  6. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to PeterR in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    I don't think this is objectively true at all.
    Do a Google search on "the last days" or "the last days bible" (adding "Bible" focuses a bit better on what we're talking about).
    Admittedly the JW team has done some good SEO work to get their own page near the top - but that is JW's talking about their own beliefs. It's not the "everyone else" you refer to.
    Many people are talking about the last days, and in the first few pages of search results I couldn't find one non-JW source that was making reference to JW belief.
    You can see from the results that lots of Christian groups in general are talking about the last days, and most of them believe that we are in them.
    If you're convinced that when the average person hears "the last days" they automatically think of JWs and no other Christian denomination, how would you support that? I honestly think it's an impression given to JWs by JWs, and not an objective reality.
    That's not to say that JWs aren't doing a decent job of talking about it. I'm just trying to put some perspective on it.
  7. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to Melinda Mills in No! Please!! Not another thread about 1914!!!   
    It is fun to follow the discussions, but it is hard work to contribute.  I am taking it this is a serious question.
     (Zechariah 8:23) “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”
    Following is a story based on prophecy at Zechariah 8:23. The brother first literally held on to the skirt of his mother, who was of the anointed.
    *** w12 4/15 p. 18 Seventy Years of Holding On to the Skirt of a Jew *** Life Story - Seventy Years of Holding On to the Skirt of a Jew
    As told by Leonard Smith
    When I was in my early teens, two Bible passages struck me. Today, over 70 years later, I can still remember the time when I grasped the meaning of Zechariah 8:23, which speaks of “ten men” taking hold of “the skirt of a man who is a Jew.” They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”
    Select above article and read on.
    There is no prophecy with 2017 on it, but there is no spiritual famine now. We have more than we can digest. 
    We can have comfort in hard times from the following scriptures.
    Jesus promised to be with us until the conclusion of the system of things
    . (Matthew 28:18-20) Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
    God’s love will be unfailing regardless of the problem – real or imagined, encountered before or not yet encountered.
     (Romans 8:38, 39) For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39 nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    He will help with economic problems; he will cut short the days so we can survive
    (Habakkuk 3:17, 18) 17 Although the fig tree may not blossom, And there may be no fruit on the vines; Although the olive crop may fail, And the fields may produce no food; Although the flock may disappear from the pen, And there may be no cattle in the stalls; 18 Yet, as for me, I will exult in Jehovah; I will be joyful in the God of my salvation. . .
    Relief will be on time
     (Habakkuk 2:3) For the vision is yet for its appointed time, And it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it! For it will without fail come true. It will not be late!
     (Zephaniah 3:9) For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language, So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah, To serve him shoulder to shoulder.’
    *** w12 8/15 pp. 12-13 pars. 3-6 Carry On as Kingdom Citizens! ***
    4 Learn the language. Some human governments require that those applying for citizenship speak the dominant language of the country. Even after being granted citizenship, people may strive for years to master the new language. They may quickly learn the rules of grammar but may take some time to learn to pronounce the words correctly. Similarly, God’s Kingdom requires that its citizens learn what the Bible calls the “pure language.” (Read Zephaniah 3:9.) What is that language? It is the truth about God and about his purposes as found in the Bible. We “speak” the pure language when our conduct is in accord with God’s laws and principles. Citizens of God’s Kingdom may learn basic Bible teachings quickly and get baptized. Even after their baptism, however, they must strive to “speak” the pure language better and better. In what way? Each of us needs to close the gap between what we know about Bible principles and what we practice.
    5 Study history. A person desiring to become a citizen of a human government might have to learn something about that government’s history. Likewise, those desiring to be Kingdom citizens do well to learn all they can about God’s Kingdom. Consider the example set by the sons of Korah, who served in ancient Israel. They took great delight in Jerusalem and its place of worship and in recounting the city’s history. It was not the stones and mortar that impressed them most but what the city and that place of worship represented. Jerusalem was “the town of the grand King,” Jehovah, for it was the center of pure worship. It was there that Jehovah’s Law was taught. It was to the people ruled by the King of Jerusalem that Jehovah expressed his loving-kindness. (Read Psalm 48:1, 2, 9, 12, 13.) Like them, do you have a desire to study and recount the history of the earthly part of Jehovah’s organization? The more you learn about God’s organization and how Jehovah supports his people, the more real God’s Kingdom will be to you. Your desire to preach the good news of the Kingdom will naturally intensify.—Jer. 9:24; Luke 4:43.
    6 Know the laws. Human governments require that their subjects learn and obey the laws of the land. It seems only reasonable, then, that Jehovah should expect us to learn and obey the laws and principles that govern all Kingdom citizens. (Isa. 2:3; John 15:10; 1 John 5:3) Human laws are often flawed and may be unfair. In contrast, “the law of Jehovah is perfect.” (Ps. 19:7) Do we delight in God’s law and read his Word each day? (Ps. 1:1, 2) The only way we can learn God’s law is to study it for ourselves. Nobody else can do this for us.
    I am sure another contributor can think of another prophecy.
  8. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to PeterR in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    I'm not aware of one comment on here that disputes either point.
    The difference is that some people here castigate others for not accepting specific human calculated dates as part of Jehovah's timeline, whereas others accept the idea that it's proven folly to ignore Jesus' words about this subject.
  9. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to Queen Esther in DO YOU REMEMBER THESE OLD, RARE DIFFERENT BOOKS ?   
    ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫.♪ ♫ ♪ ♫
  10. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    You are "preaching to the choir"  here on that one ... an American English expression that means I am ALREADY a believer that what you say about this is true. 
    Unfettered human communication is SO IMPORTANT that atheists ( as the classical extreme example)  will go into mortal combat against those who try to restrict the free exchange of ideas, and are willing to die FOREVER to defend free speech and expression ... they knowing that without it the human race will always be in bondage to those who want to maintain THEIR power ... by restricting what WE are allowed to know.
    A GREAT movie about this is the 1997  "THE POSTMAN", starring Kevin Costner ... about children who know that there is NOTHING more important than family communication ...and other similar themes.

  11. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to Outta Here in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    No, wrongly anticipated. We have no basis for judgement is my point, faithful once, or otherwise. All we can see is their desertion, regardless of their justification.
    It may well be that erroneous views were promoted at the time, which we can pronounce as so now very well, in hindsight.
    Yes, as a matter of fact, I do....and many, if not all, did! There was enough truth adhered, to even in those days, for any so minded as Peter to conclude: "“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life." John 6:68.
    But........connect me back up with the theme????? 
  12. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to bruceq in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    No need to be unhappy, just don't complain so much. Its all about your frame of mind " Do EVERYTHING without COMPLAINING and ARGUING", Phil 2:14 
    " HAPPY is the people for whom it is this way!  HAPPY is the people whose God is JEHOVAH"! PSALM 144:15.  
  13. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to bruceq in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    Of course.
    "Whether good OR bad,  we will OBEY the voice of Jehovah our God," Jer. 42:6
     Be OBEDIENT to those who are taking the lead among you and be SUBMISSIVE" Heb 13:17. 
     " Do EVERYTHING without COMPLAINING and ARGUING", Phil 2:14 
  14. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to JW Insider in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    I'm glad that The Librarian moved the "generation" posts from the unrelated topic over to this topic. It was clear that on this topic, the questions remain unsettled to some and unsettling to others.
    In addition to the posts that have already been moved over from that other topic, questions came up about whether belief in the current "overlapping generation" doctrine was optional, or perhaps less important than other doctrines. Perhaps it is not a topic that we promote to new persons but have them consider it when they are better prepared for it. Another question (mine) was whether we should get involved in discussions of chronology at all.
  15. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to Outta Here in The "Overlapping Generation" Revisited.   
    True, but irrelevant to the generation discussion. We all know that the generation of 1914, consists of a number of generations any way you care to slice and dice those living in these "last days".
    Very good point actually, but such an irresistable discussion!. Anyway, I'm out of here until discipline is restored. No disrespect to @JWInsider. Apologies to @Librarian. 
  16. Like
    ARchiv@L got a reaction from Melinda Mills in Animals in Paradise - What Will They Eat?   
    humans AND animals living in peace together, 
    (Genesis 1:26)
    “. . .have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens 
    and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth. . .”

  17. Like
    ARchiv@L got a reaction from Outta Here in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    it has happened before ...the progressive change of understanding, (examples) :
    (Mark 8:17)
    “. . .Do YOU not yet perceive and get the meaning? . . .”
    (Luke 24:31, 32)
    “. . .At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; and he disappeared from them. 
    32 And they said to each other: 
    “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?””

  18. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to JW Insider in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Before I read your name, Gnosis Pithos, I read your first sentence and still didn't have a clue who you were. The second sentence was an immediate give-away, however, based purely on the style. I even knew exactly what city would come up if I looked up the IP address, which I won't publish here, because not everyone has access to this information. I glanced over at the name, and also recognized it as a name you used a couple years ago on jw-archive, where you also made it clear that it was only one of several alternate names you were using. When I did finally look up the IP, I was a bit surprised that "Gnosis Pithos" used the EXACT same IP address as Allen Smith, AllenSmith and JWTheologian etc, etc. Since your previous explanation was that JWTheologian might be another person in the same household as you, all I can say is that you must have a crowded house.
    Anyway, I don't really care about that, I just thought it was a funny experience. But, no matter what, I'm wondering if you might be able to explain some of what you meant. For example, can you explain what the understanding was (from 1874, 1878, 1881 to 1914) that people cannot grasp? What had these Bible students under the direction of Russell figured out in 1915, about how the generations before 1914 would not experience?
  19. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to Outta Here in ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view   
    Come now, surely we all can see the basic meaning there in Pr. 4:18 of the improving path of the righteous ones in contrast with the ever darkening road to destruction v19?  Even the cross reference to Ps. 119:105 makes it clear that God's Word lights the path, and to see this light as becoming brighter, as knowledge, understanding, and application of the same word increases, is no textual stretch.
  20. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to Queen Esther in Which one brought you to the truth ? MANY NICE THEOCRATIC BOOKS !   
  21. Upvote
    ARchiv@L reacted to Queen Esther in Which one brought you to the truth ? MANY NICE THEOCRATIC BOOKS !   
    Thank  you  dear  Peppa   Yes,  I  thought  to  you  and  posted  the  Brother  ARchiv@L Study  book  for  you  once  more !   Wish  you  a  very  nice  midweek  meeting  today ❤  SEE  US  LATER  OR  TMW ! 
  22. Thanks
    ARchiv@L reacted to Colin Browne in DO YOU REMEMBER THESE OLD, RARE DIFFERENT BOOKS ?   
    Here is something to interest you. In Germany and elsewhere it's either Winter or summer. (Gen. 8:22) But in our part of the Eastern Cape we have a unique weather system because we often experience four seasons in one day! In fact, one holiday resort, "Four Seasons" takes advantage of this. We can wake up to an icy morning, which later becomes warm. A few hours later temperatures may climb above 30 degrees. Which is why most residents say that they will never move away.
    There are many hotels which share that name:
    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
  23. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to The Librarian in 1958 - From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained   
    also here:

    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
  24. Like
    ARchiv@L reacted to The Librarian in The Two Babylons   
    Two Babylons A.Hislop.pdf
  25. Like
    ARchiv@L got a reaction from Queen Esther in Extra virgin olive oil staves off Alzheimer's, preserves memory, new study shows   
    and greek olive oil, I say ..... 
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