ComfortMyPeople

I wish to mention regarding your quotes that I prefer using 1 Cor 13:12 regarding to our gradually increase in knowledge. Never Pro 4:18. The Proverb, while is our favorite, cherished verse to probe that Jehovah teach us step by step, by no means Jehovah inspired Solomon to indicate this idea. If we read the context, the verse is talking about the behavior of bad and good persons, and how their respective life gradually improves or deteriorates. As these ideas are always hidden for our “extended” applications, and never, never, never, ever is mentioned the correct and basic meaning, almost no one between we, the JW, can grasp the inspired meaning, only this “extended” one. A pity. And yes, 1Cor 13:12 conveys perfectly the idea you’re talking about.

WAITING… AND FIGHTING ARchiv@L, I appreciate your advice. Very laconic, but appropriate. Only to develop a little further my attitude, let me mention David example in, perhaps, the most difficult part of his life, when persecuted by Saul. He had the temptation (as myself sometimes) to escape and wait if Jehovah fix the situation. But Jehovah had another plan for him: (1 Samuel 22:5) In time Gad the prophet said to David: “Do not stay in the stronghold. Go from there into the land of Judah.” So David left and went into the forest of Heʹreth” And again in the middle of the fight… And sure you remember when the future king was forced to run away between the Philistines, even in that painful situation, he continued to support the people of God… commanded by his worst enemy. (1 Samuel 27:7, 8) “The length of time that David lived in the countryside of the Phi·lisʹtines was a year and four months. David would go up with his men to raid the Geshʹur·ites, the Girʹzites, and the A·malʹek·ites, for they were inhabiting the land that extended from Teʹlam as far as Shur and down to the land of Egypt”.  These wars, in spite of the opinion of his enemies, were considered, in reality “the wars of Jehovah” (1Sa 25:28) To meditate in this example has helped to me to wait and fight. TO FIGHT against the outer enemy: the false religions and their false teachings: hell fire, trinity and so. I don’t meant fighting holding a banner in our conventions and shouting “the 1914 teaching is untruth”. As I consider the Congregation has a Leader more wise and powerful than me, I WAIT he will fix any situation he considers worth of change when he considers the proper moment.

(Luke 12:47, 48) . . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him. Anna, everyone of us know who has the responsability to fix the situation: "his master on coming" (Lu 12:43) So, what can we do? Wait, be busy in the work and making fine things, and pray. Pray for these brothers in th GB, that they have the wisdom and courage to act. Pray for the humble ones, that Jehovah grant them faith to wait without stumbling

Lately I've been too busy to post anything. But these last ideas put forward by JWI fit so well with what I've been thinking for years that I wish to express my totally agree. I hope that those on charge, have the humility to recognize their mistakes and the courage to explain it openly, no matter what happens and whoever falls, however sad it may be. The truth can not, it should not be covered more time. The servant must be prudent, true, but first he must be faithful.

I apologize JWI, but I can't find in the thread the article you've pointed out as source of your answer. Could you be so kind of indicate me where is it mentioned?

I still remember days when divorce between brothers, fraud between brothers… were so strange. Sadly, nowadays the things are changed. No one should be surprised. As mentioned above, the situation in the seven congregations of Revelation were all less pleasant. With only few exceptions. Now, regarding the condition of the Christians, true Christians, in the last days: (2Ti 2:16-26) […] “for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them.+ 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred,+ and they are subverting the faith of some. […] 20 Now in a large housethere are utensils* not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable use but others for a use lacking honor. 21 So if anyone keeps clear of the latter ones, he will be an instrument* for an honorable use, sanctified, useful to his owner, prepared for every good work. […] 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed" Was Paul advising Timothy about problems he will face with people outside or inside the congregation? WereHymenaeus and Philetus worldly persons or vessels lacking of honor in the congregations? I suppose nobody will find it difficult the answer. Now the problem. The division in chapters. It seems that chapter three starts a new discussion. With wich base? The uninspired numeric division? Our habit in applying these words to world conditions? Let’s focus now in the famous chapter 3:1-13 But know this, that in the last days+ critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power;+ and from these turn away. 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.+ One simple question. Who did Timothy need to turn away from (v.5)? From unbeliever neighbors? In reality, Paul was still speaking about the lack of honor ‘utensils’INSIDE the congregations. I’m completely optimistic regarding the final result of the future events. But I believe we’re facing trouble times. And I’m not only talking about Gog’s attack.

I have less time lately to participate. Perhaps this night. The issues in this topic realy make feel sad, because the news are regarding my country, and I personally know some of the brothers on jail. EDIT '[I'm not using my normal PC, the persons I know were mentioned in other post about Spain, this that mention brothers on responsability on the Supreme Court in Spain] At this time I only wish to point out my confidence in that this is Jehocah's people. But, why are we sure all the refination happenned in 1918? What if the "best is to come"? Why have we applied 2Tim 3:1-5 to worldy people, when the context is with no doubt talking about situations INSIDE the congregation? In this way, when I know about this bad news in the congregations I see more proof we are living in the last days!

“Although I was making every effort to write you about” when did Jesus secure full kingdom power… and lately my time is sparser than habitual, in spite of this I wish to point out several points about this serious matter. First, thank you JWI for your investigation about blood, components, fractions and similar matters. If I’ve understood well, JWI has a more serious or stricter view than many of us regarding blood utilization. I mean that many of us perhaps consider the use of some fractions. But JWI (and also James Thomas Rook Jr share this view, I think) point out the fact the Bible forbids BLOOD, without specifying little or much. Well, this is what I call it WHITE position. No pale grey, nor dark grey, but white. And this is fine. No one of us should think these brothers suffer from weak faith (oh, well, JTR does suffer high blood pressure!) I must admit I’m not an expert in these matters. But, as my faith (and life) is involved, I need some level of knowledge, without which my position would seem fanatical to doctors or third persons. By the way, I personally know brothers that when deciding about the chart in the KM about fractions and procedures they marked NO for everything. And others just the opposite. HYPOTETTICAL SITUATION IN THE HOSPITAL’S RESTAURANT My wife is in the hospital room, waiting for some surgical intervention the next day. I had some difficulties with her anesthesiologist because her recommendation about the use of some blood’s fraction in the intervention. In spite of this, I feel very confident and take the opportunity to enjoy a big steak with salad. While I’m eating alone in my table, the anesthesiologist approaches me and says: · “You’re eating more blood than your wife has not allowed us to use with her” Don’t confuse the red juice in raw red meat with blood, it’s a muscle’s protein, the myoglobin. HOW MUCH WHOLE BOOD AM I EATING WITH MY MEAT? I’m not a specialist, so I’ve made some investigation. I’ve found this surprising data: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6495586?report=abstract Exsanguination of animals at slaughter and the residual blood content of meat. Abstract About 40 to 60 per cent of the total blood volume is lost at exsanguination. The loss can be influenced slightly by differences in traditional slaughter techniques and is considerably reduced after cardiac arrest in sheep and cattle. Blood not lost at sticking is probably largely retained in the viscera rather than the carcase. The residual blood content of lean meat is 2 to 9 ml/kg muscle. There is no evidence that this amount is affected by different slaughter methods or that large amounts of residual blood influence the microbiology of meat. And this more recent and very comprehensive source states in almost 20 ml/kg of hemoglobin in the meat, depending of the slaughter method. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4093272 If this is correct, in the slaughterhouse, during slaughter, · ONLY HALF OF THE BLOOD IS SPILLED! · ALMOST THE OTHER HALF REMAINS IN THE VISCERA · FROM 2 TO 9 ml/Kg REMAINS IN THE MEAT WE EAT (12-18 mg/kg hemoglobin according the second study) CONSIDERATIONS In the Moses’s Law, Jehovah didn’t forbid the use of viscera for feeding (I'm not sure regarding this) · (Lev 3:10, 11) “He will also remove the appendage of the liver along with the kidneys. And the priest will make it smoke on the altar as food, an offering made by fire to Jehovah.” But Jehovah knew perfectly that in the viscera remained much blood of the animal. And these weren’t forbidden nor for Jews nor for Christians. And, regarding lean meat, we can conclude, obviously, that Jehovah knew some blood remains in it. In spite of this fact, His own Son ate meat, as we do. All of this make me think that our position about blood fractions have some logical. ARBITRARINESS I must admit that our position about the four main blood components (forbidden) and the other minor ones (allowed according the conscience of each one) is arbitrary. Would have been perfectly possible to determine the white/black not focusing in the importance of the components (plasma, red cells, white cells, platelets) but in the percentage of these fractions related to the whole blood. But this is incongruous. As JWI perfectly explains in his post (and with charts!) if I admit albumin (4% of plasma) or immunoglobulins (3% of plasma), I admit more proportion of blood that when I refuse platelets. I recognize that, at some point, the GB could reconsider this incongruence and change the KM chart. In the meantime, this position is not going to make sin against God’s law about blood. It remains to me avoiding albumin, immunoglobulins and other fractions. The problem is the opposite: perhaps I would admit platelets if the focus was different. Here we are with another “vaccination” issue! God grant them wisdom!!

At this stage, I must confess I had clear what happened in 33, but not now. Nothing that shakes the framework of my faith about the role of Jesus, naturally! But as I’m a little bit ‘weak in faith’, I apologize because I’d appreciate some more clarifications. I specially find it difficult to accept this idea in you post: “I can see Revelation as a sweeping history of the Kingdom from 33 CE on, conquering in the midst of its enemies, until the end of the thousand-year reign.” This is so because I can’t find any basis to go back from the time the Revelation was written to year 33. Moreover, when this book clearly states, from his beginning to his end: · (Re 1:1) “to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.” · (Re 4:1) “and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet, saying: “Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place.” · (Re 22:6) “He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.” Frankly, I don’t find any clue to start to think that some of the visions and declarations of Revelation begun to happen in 33, when Jesus went to heaven. In fact, I seem to remember one commentary of JWI saying the riding of the white horse in Re 6, and the ulterior calamities have to do with the events from 33 until now. Do I remember well? But I can’t reconcile the idea of giving a crown to Jesus in 33 and the following: · The white horse rider “went out conquering and to complete his conquest” · Any defeat was predicted · After 33 C.E. the apostasy won over the Christianism (wheat and weeds parable) · Centuries of obscurantism fell upon mankind Perhaps, I think so, the vision of the crowned king riding the white horse apply to the last era of this world, let’s say in the Revelation era. Could any charitable soul be so kind to help this poor obtuse man!?

I’ve just found this remarkable interview with Marie Collins, survivor of clergy sex abuse and member of Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors. https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/exclusive-survivor-explains-decision-leave-vaticans-abuse-commission But, the fact that this scourge is universal doesn’t comfort me, to the effect to condone what is happening inside our Congregation. Yes, our Organization doesn’t condone child abuse! But it sounded estrange to me when I heard in one former broadcasting brother A. Morris, angry, mentioning that apostates slander us, saying we tolerate child abuse. I thought “it’s crazy, who could think so, if we don’t tolerate smoking, let alone child abuse.” But, after watching ARC hearings, and reflecting in our policies until now, a lot of improvements were, and I think still are, needed.

Your argument (I mean, the Bible argument) is very solid. Christ is not waiting -inactively- until the end of the millennium. So, perhaps, the idea you and Eoin have pointed out, that Jesus Christ “has begun to reign” or “become king” could refer to some special moments in the development of God’s purposes: Da 7, Re 12 and so. Thanks for sharing these valuable thoughts!

You (JWI and Eoin) are absolutely right! Regarding this, I like the conceptual design selected in our “Revelation…climax” book, where the heavenly Jerusalem is drawn as a modern city, with skyscrapers, do you remember? I conveys the idea of complexity and advanced organization, as in a modern city. And this has scriptural base: (Heb. 11:10) “For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.”

I must recognize, this is an "entrenched truth" for me. I find it difficult change my mind because, after a lot of years, my neurons and dendrites have a lot of highways in the direction of thinking that: · Jesus went to heaven and sat down (waiting, not actively ruling) · Jesus would be crowned, and his kingdom would begin at a later date But your arguments (JWI) seem to be very solid, and the ideas contribute by Eoin vey valids. Well, let’s try to find a “connecting link” between positions. First, and foremost, I suppose the most important (and foundational, core, unchangeable) truths are: · Christ is the appointed king. · His kingdom would begin, logically, at some moment after his resurrection. · His kingdom would gradually conquer to all his enemies · There is a climax, when the king would wage a final war If we can agree with the above points, I think we can build from a solid foundation, cannot we? Then, the point at issue seems to be the precise moment when the king is crowned and, consequently, the kingdom begins. “I see Satan already fallen” (Lu 10:18) We all agree these words, expressed in a past tense, would have a future fulfillment. So, I tend to think that some of the 50 verses or more JWI aptly quote could have the same meaning: The certainly of the rulership is so high that is expressed as already happened. Melinda has also quote similar statements in Revelation. How, otherwise, could we understand the words (Eph 2:6) “he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus”? I found reasonable the explanations: · *** sl chap. 8 p. 132 par. 6 A Spiritual Paradise on a Polluted Earth *** Figuratively, Paul was already seated with fellow Christians on earth “in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” · *** it-1 pp. 1064-1065 Heaven *** How can persons in “heavenly places” still be on earth? The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22) Ephesians 2:6 · *** w15 8/15 p. 13 par. 14 Meditate on Jehovah’s Enduring Love *** Paul described anointed Christians as having been ‘raised up and seated together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.’ (Eph. 2:6) They occupy this spiritual position because they have been ‘sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of their inheritance,’ that is, ‘the hope reserved for them in the heavens.’—Eph. 1:13, 14; Col. 1:5. In a similar way, why don’t think the same regarding Christ’s Kingdom? Perhaps the many verses speaking as he was already King in the 1st century could be seen as HOW GOD CONSIDER his victorious Son from that time forward: the king. But the beginning of the kingdom could be future. Eoin also mention the undeniable fact we all believe that in spite Jehovah is the Eternal King, the Bible mentions that when his sovereignty reaches some special achievement, He “becomes to reign” in some other special way. Thus, he expresses the idea that Christ would be king when resurrected, and that some subsequent events would be “begins to rule” in new ways. Well, I assume this is a resume of his position. I think all our pillar or column beliefs would be the same either way, whether Christ had begun to reign in 33, 1914 or any other date. Anyway, I hope nobody consider inappropriate or inopportune if I point out some ideas. The Appearance of the King The appearance of Christ inspecting the 7 congregations: · (Re 1:13-16) “and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest. Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame, and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was like the sun when it shines at its brightest”. The appearance of Christ in cavalry charge: · (Re 19:12-16) “His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” I’d like to point out the similarities in the appearance, as reflected in the pictures, in both situations: when inspecting the congregations and in his final war against the enemies. But there is a paramount difference: the crown. The inspection visit occurs, obviously, sometime after his resurrection. We can observe him as the glorious person he is. But in this period of time he doesn’t wear any crown. Could this indicate he is the appointed king, but still not working as such? The three times he is seen with crown in the Scriptures Errors and omissions excepted, there are only three accounts where Jesus is seen crowned. · (Re 6:2) “And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.” · (Re 14:14-16) “Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. · (Re 19:11-16) “I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse […] on his head are many diadems […] he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty […] he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” A meticulous reading of the passages could indicate us the following: · Obviously, is Christ · He is already crowned as king · His kingship is related to his victory against the enemies About the white horse of Re 6, what I found very meaningful is the fact that points out the moment of the coronation: “and a crown was given him”. And, immediately after this event, it is mentioned he starts to win over the enemies. Now, I question: did it happen in 33 C.E.? Did Christ begin to win in that year over his enemies? How to fit the parable of the wheat and weed? Didn’t the apostasy win over Christianism at those days? But the ride of the king is without any defeat: “conquering and to complete his conquest”. I am unclear this could happen in 33. In the other two accounts (Re 14 and 19), the king is seen crowned. If we link all three accounts I think we can get a comprehensive picture pointing out the fact that, when the king gets its crown begins to conquer without interruption till the end. The day of the coronation, Daniel account. I assume that the majority of us see the coronation day of one monarch as a very exciting event, especially if he is our king. I think the Bible reflected these proper feelings when cover the coronation, the crowning of the Jehovah’s designed king. The vision itself: · (Daniel 7:8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14) “And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly. I kept watching until thrones were set in place and the Ancient of Days sat down […] The Court took its seat, and books were opened […] I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed […] look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom” Known account, isn’t it? Daniel asked to the angel and he provides him more information The angel’s explanation · (Daniel 7:21, 22, 26, 27) “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom […] But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely […] ‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One” Logically, what the angel said as explanation couldn’t be at odds with the vision itself, right? Now, let’s merge both accounts, trying to get an order of the events: 1 The horn speaks arrogantly against the saints, made war on them. 2 As a result of this malicious action, one Court is formed, presided by the Ancient of Days. A sentence of destruction is decreed. Who will execute this judgment? 3. The son of man approaches. The kingdom is given to him 4. The holy ones receive a favorable judgment, but the horn is destroyed 5. The holy ones also receive the kingdom If this order is correct, I can’t see this being fulfilled in that year (33). A basic proof is the fact the horn had not yet came into existence! The day of the coronation, John account. I think the most enlightening account about this matter under our consideration is Revelation 12 (and its context, the chapter 11). Because it describes the beginning of the kingdom as the birth of a child. Something completely new, not starting centuries ago. And the verses, all of us will agree, only could apply to the last era. John account also fits with Daniel, because true worshippers are described under attack from enemies. They are protected by God. The kingdom starts. The child begins his life. Final thoughts As I’ve mention before, perhaps we are not so distant in our views. Many times I’ve think about the day when Christ went to heaven. I suppose an enormous happiness happened. In human terms, cheering, hugs and, probably, formal declarations from Jehovah. I imagine a general assembly, with all the angels of the heaven. God is receiving His beloved son again! This, offering his blood as ransom. Then, he sat down in the closest possible position to his Father. He received “all authority” at this moment. His disciples can, appropriately, begin to preach about a new king, a future king. But so safe his kingdom would come, that the Scriptures could talk as if the king already was ruling.

Thank you for the clarification!

Eoin. Fantastic points! I apologize my low-level intelligence but, in spite your words sound very clear and fine exposed, I can't finally grasp if your position is: Was Jesus King as soon as he went to heaven? Would Jesus be King later? Please, Eoin, I'm not being ironic, simple I'm quite clumsy!

Now I see that my sentence was ambiguous. I was trying to be ironic. When you said that you listened to Fred Franz speak like Yoda, I meant "higher studies"

Now I understand why you're able to understand me. You got Superior Education from a relevant source! By the way, can't grasp the full meaning, or tone (ironic, of course) of the last sentence of yoda: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future" Does this sentence reflect doubt, uncertainty?

1971 *** kj chap. 19 p. 357 par. 20 Defeat Awaits Attack by Nations under Gog *** Gog of Magog would like to invade and get up as high among the restored people of Jehovah as he can, even “onto the mountains of Israel,” indeed onto “Mount Zion,” the seat of government, to assure himself of success. So he comes with the vast “congregation” of war-minded persons that he can muster, many “bands and many peoples.” “Like clouds to cover the land” with their shadow, so the multitudes of Gog’s army of aggression will swarm over the earth, bedarkening the ground with their presence. This is a warning to the remnant of spiritual Israel and their dedicated sheeplike associates. They should not be surprised that they will have the whole world of mankind under Satan the Devil against them. Not amazed should they be even if military dictatorship world wide came

When Did Jesus Secure Full Kingdom Power? Revisited · I Verses that seems to prove it when he was resurrected · II Verses that make it difficult to think Christ was King when he was resurrected · III How to harmonize both sets of verses · IV The Third way This is a follow up of the tread: When Did Jesus Secure Full Kingdom Power? https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/2285-when-did-jesus-secure-full-kingdom-power/#comment-3268 I Verses that seems to prove it when he was resurrected JW Insider, who originated the post, quoted many verses that clearly say us that Christ was King ALREADY in first century. Some of them: (Matthew 28:17, 18) When they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted. Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. · The authority was already given (Philippians 2:9, 10) For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground. · Exalted, in the past, not in the future (1 Timothy 6:14, 15) our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords · He was already king and lord (Revelation 17:14) These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings,. . . · He was already Lord and King (Revelation 1:5) and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” · He was already the Ruler (Colossians 1:13) 13 He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, · He has already transferred us to this kingdom (completely agree there is no Biblical support for a special congregation-related kingdom) (Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. He also subjected all things under his feet. . . · God seated, and subjected to him, in the past, not in the future Well. No commentary needed. These and other similar verses seem to prove that when Jesus Christ went to heaven, he was already appointed as king, not having to wait for a future date, as 1914, for example. II Verses that make it difficult to think Christ was King when he was resurrected (Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever” · The kingdom would be set up in the days of those kings, the kings ruling in the time of the end, not in the first century. (Daniel 7:13, 14,27) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed… “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’ · Kingdom would be given to the Son of Man in the last days, at the same time that the holy ones, not being this possible when Christ was resurrected. (Revelation 11:15-18) “The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” And the 24 elders who were seated before God on their thrones fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” · The exact moment when God and His Son start to rule match with the time nations become wrathful, not in first century. III How to harmonize both sets of verses For His great power and prescience, to Jehovah apply these wonderful words: · (Romans 4:17) “who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they are” In this way, it seems that Bible talks about certain happenings, still in the future, as already fulfilled. We also sometimes speak in this way when we wish convey security in our speech: our travel agent says us “you are flying to the Caribbean” after paying for the trip, but still on the ground, obviously. Similarly, we found the next verses talking about a FUTURE promise, as realized, performed. (Ephesians 1:3) “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ” · But they were still on earth, not on heaven. (Ephesians 2:6) “Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus” · The Christians were still alive, not raised to heaven. (Colossians 1:13) “He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son” · Accepting the view this verse is not talking (as evidently does not) about a special kingdom over the congregation, but about the Kingdom of Christ, Paul goes on to say that the Christians were already transferred to this kingdom, but his happening was still on the future. (Colossians 2:12) “For you were buried with him in his baptism, and by your relationship with him you were also raised up together through your faith in the powerful work of God, who raised him up from the dead.” · When this was written, the Christians were still alive, no raised from dead. Once and again, there is a speech about future events as they had already happened. In this way, it is perfectly possible that all these verses quoted in the section I, in spite the past tense of the verb, would be referring to the future. And, the most important, in this way harmonizing the verses in section II. IV The Third way Apparently, the exposition above refutes the idea that Christ secured his kingdom at 33 C.E. when he was resurrected and went to heaven, in this way giving support to the idea Christ would secure his Kingdom in 1914. Well, without enter in the 1914 arena, at this moment, the only two points I intended to show are, according my opinion: · When Christ went to heaven, received the appointment to be Lord, King and many other things. · The kingdom was secured, the king was crowned, the kingdom would begin, at some time in the future. As a consequence of the last idea, the next other: · I’m not saying this moment had to be 1914, only a future date from 33 C.E.

The article that changed everything In my opinion, it was the Watchtower 10/1/2005, “Parents—What Future Do You Want for Your Children?” A close friend of me working in Brooklyn Bethel at those days mention that the brother (I think he was from the GB) presiding the Monday Family Worship said regarding the article under study: “well, this is the same point of view as always”, but not everyone nodded. Let’s review why. Summarizing the advises from 1990-2005, this quote could be a typical example: · *** g94 8/22 p. 5 Additional Schooling or not? *** Supplementary Education. The Watchtower of November 1, 1992, noted concerning Jehovah’s Witnesses and the full-time ministry: “The general trend in many lands is that the level of schooling required to earn decent wages is now higher than it was a few years ago. . . . It is difficult to find jobs with decent wages after completing simply the minimum schooling required by law . . . “What is meant by ‘decent wages’? . . . Their wages might be termed ‘adequate,’ or ‘satisfactory,’ if what they earn allows them to live decently while leaving them sufficient time and strength to accomplish their Christian ministry.” So The Watchtower said: “No hard-and-fast rules should be made either for or against extra education. In spite of the above reference, in general, advanced education was always presented in a way not recommended, for its dangers, as immorality, materialism, proud and so. But, when this 2005 article was studied in the congregation, we couldn’t find any possibility do chose going to University and to be an exemplar brother. And this position was forced in several schools of elders and additional instructions regarding choosing speakers for assemblies and other exemplar Christians. But there was this small sentence in the article: · *** w05 10/1 p. 30 par. 13 Parents—What Future Do You Want for Your Children? *** “Of course, immorality, bad behavior, and pressures are by no means limited to the college or university campus” Of course! Every JW is well aware of this reality. A young Christian of 16 years must face also to temptations and pressures in his secular job, if he chooses leave studies and start to work. And, this is the reality in my country, the immorality in Professional Schools (not sure the translation in English, I mean places where you learn some skill), are WORST, and the atmosphere is WORST than in Universities. Why? Because in my country, in general only good students go to University, and most of them concentrate on studying. On the other hand, a lot of unmotivated youth assist to these other schools only to passing the time. To whom correspond the decision? All those involved, not the elders, not the congregation. When should react the congregation? (Gal 6:1) “Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness” In other words, if we see the brother takes a dangerous path, the loving way is to advise him. For example: · The young must leave the home and go to another city, staying with worldly people · The debts are so high that will force to the Christian to spend all his time work hard to cancel Love and spiritual motivates us to give advice. Perhaps the lack of judgment could lead to losing the privileges. But not (is my opinion) as a general rule. But let’s consider next situations: · What (as in my city) there are several universities, avoiding the necessity to leave home? · What if my son eats at home, sleeps at home? · What if, for these reasons, I have the opportunity to talk with my son every day, and see the different situations he’s coping in his daily life? · What if the workload in his studies are quite similar to those that would have working? · What if I can move to the city where the University is located, to oversee my son? · What if I can delay the finalization of the career, in the interest that my son would have less workload, and, in this way, more freedom for his spiritual activities? · What if I can take over the debts · What if…? The 2005 article did not consider these possibilities at all. Simply, if you go to University, you’ll face all these dangers. What has happened since then? I have a good friend. He’s a very known elder. His three sons have gone to University (living at home). The outcome: · The three are -at this time- in full time ministry. One of them was several years in Bethel. · One of them is a very humble and nice elder (because before he went to University he already was so) · Two of them are not so humble (because before they went to University they already were this way) I’ve seen a lot of other youth not going to University. The outcome · The humble ones, still are. · The proud ones, still are. Yes, I’ve heard a lot of times the experience of someone going to University and leaving the truth, or becoming more proud, or more materialist. But I’ve seen the same in many brothers without superior studies. For me, the relevant factor is: Has contributed the superior studies to this spiritual outcome? My personal experience. I learnt the truth in the 1975 generation. Imagine. I start as pioneer the same day when I was baptized, when I was 16. In spite my parents pressure (I’m alone as JW) and my love for Science and Chemistry, I started the regular at 17 accepting any kind o partial time job, and when I was 18 was sent as special pioneer to another region. Later, I got married and about 30 had to leave full time service. My situation was anything but easy. My only skill with 30 years was to preach. I struggled a lot studying for myself computer sciences after exhausting workdays. As I gained skills I could get better jobs. Over time I founded my own company related with software development. All my employees have University degree but, invariably, I had to teach them a lot of skills. Do I think I lost my time when I was pioneer? I’m about 60, Do I think I could have attended University and, later, start as pioneer? What if, instead of doing well things, economically, at this moment I had a poor paid job, with no good holidays, no good car, do I still think it was a bad decision, not going to Chemistry University? I would never exchange those wonderful years serving as pioneer and helping humble people to learn the truth, helping to establish new congregations, depending of God’s hand… No car, no big house, no holidays is better than serving in this special way. So, what I think about these persons that now realized they wasted part of their life not attending superior studies? As several of you have mention, if we hold the kingdom first, no sacrifice we could have done is perceived as such. But this does not mean that our position regarding superior studies are, at some degree, an imposition, not a personal decision.

Melinda. Always I read your commentaries, I just simply react: (Acts 26:28) “In a short time you would persuade me to become . . ." your follower

Arauna. I subscribe your commentaries. The Watchtower recommendations about helping refugees in material sense should be seen with balance. Yes, Jesus and apostles helped poor people even with money (Jn 13:29). My experience in this field has to do with a “fight” with my wife. She is all heart. Any refugee, or newcomer to our country she tries to help them with forms, with social counsel and so. Yes, obviously these people react with appreciation, as I would do in similar circumstances. But let me be crystal clear. Only ONE of these persons consume an enormous quantity of time (for me, most valuable than money). I mean, helping with official papers, doctors, hospitals, social rights, understanding of local law… Believe me, ONE person, ONE family, consumes a lot of resources. Well, please, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying no help, or a merely testimonial help. But we’ve found more useful to address these people to social services. They have more skills, more time and more resources than us. Even more, we avoid the situation (very common) that these people showing interest in our message only because need material help. Please, again, I’m not saying that we should only preach them without provide material help. But I wish to point out the same as Arauna: balance

Can we function without the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society? · *** w71 12/15 p. 762 A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation *** · AN INTERESTING PROBLEM · At the close of discussing matters such as the above at the annual chartered meeting of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania at Buckingham, Pa., on October 1, 1971, an interesting problem was posed for the audience, especially for the voting members present of the said Society. It was this: Nineteen hundred years ago, the “faithful and discreet slave” class with its governing body functioned without a legal corporation chartered by Caesar, and it did so—successfully, magnificently. What about the governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class of the present time? Can it also function without the legal nonprofit corporation known as Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania? and succeed? In the light of the precedent established by the apostles and fellow elders of the Jerusalem congregation in the first century C.E., we leave you to answer the question for yourself. I must confess that when I first read this question in the article quoted (I was very young then) I couldn’t answer confidently, I thought: “how can we get our wonderful books and magazines, our big rotary presses…” So, in spite the article implicitly was indicating a positive answer. For me the “Society” was so linked to our spiritual prosperity, so evident of being a tool in Jehovah’s hand that I hardly could understand the reason for the “interesting problem posed for the audience.” I’m in no way insinuating the Society has not been or is not useful, wonderful useful to accomplish Jehovah’s will in this period of history. What I wish is to bring up the side-effects of this situation. What situation I am talking about? The fact that one corporation, with his offices, his personnel, his factories, his timetables, his economic needs, the skills needed. Promotions and dismissals, bowing and scrapping, and many other factors would have affected our entire organization. Even more, the fact that, unlike what happened in any other organization, the staff and the majority of persons directly working for this Society, are living under the same roof in Bethel houses, as an enormous family, under a lot or rules and regulations needed to accomplish the day by day duties. And still more, the fact that persons with spiritual responsibilities, as teaching, writing or the service, are immersed at some extend under this system of things. The effect that, quite a few of these persons, for decades and decades, some of them never, have had any secular job, no pressure from bosses, no teasing from coworkers. All of this, and more I could have mention, comes into play in our particular issue about the disfellowshiping. JWI raises the possibility that some prominent brothers are divorced from reality. I confirm this. I’ve seen this by myself. I’ve talked about this situation with a lot of friends, many elders, some of them C.O. I have evidence of this. I’m not saying these brothers are bad people. To the contrary. Many of them are wonderful people and fine Christians. I’ve learnt a lot from them. I’m talking that the infrastructure, the framework we’ve develop to accomplish the work carries this negative result: some inflexible people, lovers of rules, lovers of reports, detached from normal life. I could say some flagrant examples. But I prefer don’t speak too much, because I must respect persons with authority. What wonderful buildings! (Mark 13:1) “As he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what wonderful stones and buildings.” Many brothers don’t appreciate Bethel, nor respect the “Organization”, they almost worship these tools. When they visit Bethel talk about these facilities with its gardens and arrangements as a sort of advanced paradise. But the courageous commentary in the 1971 Annual Meeting putted the finger on the sore spot. Does Jehovah need factories, legal corporations? He can make the stones speak! My “happy world”, before paradise, would be with the Watch Tower Society, factories, Bethel Houses and similar to a minimal extent. Commercial companies printing our literature. Translators not living in mini-bethel (Remote Translation Offices) but in their own houses, software developers collaborating using remote tools without the necessity to live in a given building, and so forth. And mainly, and above all. Persons on charge of teaching, taking decisions over the life of others, especially these persons, should work with their owns hands, living in the real work. And after their secular work, as we do many of us every day, work for Jehovah’s worship. By the way, I think this have Scriptural basis: · *** w92 12/1 pp. 28-29 Not Peddlers of God’s Word *** Paul was not dependent on hospitality. He had learned a trade that required hard work and long hours but resulted in low wages. When the apostle arrived in Corinth as a missionary, “he found a certain Jew named Aquila . . . and Priscilla his wife. . . . So he went to them and on account of being of the same trade he stayed at their home, and they worked, for they were tentmakers.”—Acts 18:1-3. · Later, in Ephesus, Paul was still hard at work. (Compare Acts 20:34; 1 Corinthians 4:11, 12.) He may have specialized in working with cilicium, the rough, goat-hair tent material from his hometown area. We can imagine Paul sitting on a stool, bent over his workbench, cutting and sewing until late into the night. Since shop noise was likely minimal, making it easy to talk while toiling, Paul may have had opportunity to witness to the shop owner, his employees, slaves, customers, and friends.—Compare 1 Thessalonians 2:9. · The missionary Paul refused to commercialize his ministry or in any way give the impression that he was living off the Word of God. He told the Thessalonians: “You yourselves know the way you ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among you nor did we eat food from anyone free. To the contrary, by labor and toil night and day we were working so as not to impose an expensive burden upon any one of you. Not that we do not have authority, but in order that we might offer ourselves as an example to you to imitate us.”—2 Thessalonians 3:7-9.

Hello TrueTom! How many good points you’ve mentioned. Let me remark some of them I completely agree. Apostates, people who hate us (some of my relatives) share this kind of thinking. One uncle of me is saying form more than 40 years that our “bosses” are getting rich at our expense. I’ve tried any kind of argument with no success. Sincerely people, on the other hand, when get knowledge of this kind of facts, the translation to hundreds of languages, spoken many of them in impoverished regions, can clearly see the sincerity of our religion in our efforts to help others spiritually. As regarding the painfully experiences JWI (and others) are told, if these are anecdotic or generalized, my opinion is that, to the degree an old generation of overseers have been replaced by a new one, things are improved. Also, many schools of elders and other training have contributed. What, perhaps, could have contributed to a deeper change? Related to other post, if the GB would have shown more humility. Regarding JTR, I share your opinion. I suppose that a trip with this man would be anything but boring! I think his spiritual life (petulant assumption by myself to know so much of this man) is like when you hit so hard you cannot stop screaming. At that moment, no explanation is useful, all you want is to scream. And the reason is that you rage of pain. And JTR is screaming because he has spiritual pain. Until now, I’ve restrained myself to expose my points of view regarding ourselves, JW. I’ve thought: “if newcomers see this mistakes about which I speak, sure they will stumble”. Do you share my fear, TrueTom? But I’ve changed my mind because similar information is spread over the net in places infected of hate, lies, half-lies, imputation of false motives and so on. Sooner or later my students, humble brothers and people in general will be in contact with this kind of misinformation. I prefer they get the same information but from one source (myself, for example) that is loyal to Jehovah’s people. I’m JW, I’ serving as elder, in fact, I’m the secretary in my congregation. I’m pioneer... but when I criticize some matters, I never say: “these are false apostles, or thieves, or they wash the brain” as apostates do. I criticize, yes, but I say (as you, TrueTom does): “Always God’s people have made mistakes. Always the leaders in Jehovah’s people have made mistakes. Many times God’s people have needed correction from God. For these reasons I believe we’re God’s people in spite of the errors” In less words. They are going to learn the mistakes anyway from a thousand places, let them to learn from persons (as many in this forum) trusting in that Jehovah, at His proper time, will correct whatever consider necessary.

Above all, many thanks JWI for sharing so sensitive subjects. The same I must admit regarding JTR, only that he expresses more emphatically! All these situations many of us have experienced always lead to bitterness and disappointment. And not infrequently to drift away from the congregation. What a pity! I’m so sorry what you’ve mention about your family, friends and yourself. Before coming to the substance, let me explain what happened about 20 years ago in one of the congregations I was serving as elder. A very dear, aged sister, died. Her widower was disfellowshipped some time later. Then fell seriously ill. As this man was completely alone, without family, one day phoned to us, the elders to get some help from the brothers (to buy medicines and so). The body of elders made arrangements to take care of him. He died still before could be reinstated, under some care of the congregation. I am talking about year 2000 approximately. The elders pondered the Watchtower article I’ve already quoted: · *** w74 8/1 p. 467 par. 6 Maintaining a Balanced Viewpoint Toward Disfellowshiped Ones *** Congregational elders, as well as individual members of a congregation, therefore, ought to guard against developing an attitude approaching that which some Jewish rabbinical writers fomented toward Gentiles in viewing them as virtual enemies. But consider a less extreme situation. What if a woman who had been disfellowshiped were to attend a congregational meeting and upon leaving the hall found that her car, parked nearby, had developed a flat tire? Should the male members of the congregation, seeing her plight, refuse to aid her, perhaps leaving it up to some worldly person to come along and do so? This too would be needlessly unkind and inhumane. Yet situations just like this has developed, perhaps in all good conscience, yet due to a lack of balance in viewpoint” And with clear conscience we took that decision. To be, simply, humans. When I heard situations as you’ve described, believe me, I feel displeased, indignant, with deep sorrow (I’m not sure if these are correct English words expressing my feelings). Now, it arises the next question. How it is possible a humble body of elders from a far country showed, apparently, more mercy and a more balanced view to treat this matters, that distinguished Bethel elders in our headquarters? More, if they, as JWI has suggested, closely worked in the same department where the article quoted was published? When I was trying to answer, JWI has posted a new commentary. In his post there is information I was reluctant to write because I don’t want to hurt any susceptibility, but now you’re paved the way. But as I have an appointment to preach, better I’ll write tonight!