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scholar JW

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  1. JW Insider Utter nonsense! The only significance of Neb's 18/19th year pertains only to the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE which event is only described in the Bible as the basis for prophecy and not in NB History or Chronology. scholar JW
  2. JW Insider If you are going to talk about Neb's 18th or 19th year then you have to assign not just a calendrical year for each but also an event otherwise the matter is meaningless for the purpose of Chronology. Thus. this matter must be resolved whether you choose to ignore it or otherwise. You should be upfront and provide such astronomical evidence as far as I am concerned based on COJ's extensive discussion of the astronomical diaries for the NB Period there is none. You have to answer not only this question but also the other about a precise calendar date for the Fall of Jerusalem. scholar JW
  3. JW Insider The major problem that you have is that scholarship based on NB Chronology cannot resolve the 586/7 BCE date for the Fall of Jerusalem whether it was in either Neb's 18th or 19th year. Until you have resolved this problem then any talk about the 'strength of secular evidence' is foolishness and futile. Such an unresolved dilemma proves the wisdom of WT scholars choosing a different methodology in the selection of the Fall of Babylon as a Pivotal Date for the purpose of constructing a practical scheme of Bible Chronology. scholar JW
  4. JW Insider My summary of the biblical 70 years is as follows: The 70 years was first prophesied by Jeremiah in 'the fourth year of King Jehoiakim (625 BCE) - Jer. 25: 11,12; 29:10 witnessed and experienced by the prophet Daniel whilst exiled in Babylon in the first year of Darius the Mede(539-538 BCEca) -Dan.9: 2. Later, in the second year of King Darius 1 (520 BCE) the prophet Zechariah received a vision, a message of comfort concerning the already expired 70 years -Zech 1: 12; and in Darius' fourth year (518 BCE), Jehovah's word through the prophet recalled the 70 years as a period of laments -Zech. 7: 5. Finally, the historian Ezra (460 BCE) described the 70 years in 2Chron 36: 21. These seven '70 years' references show three distinctive elements characteristic of this definite historical period in Jewish history namely: a period of Exile. a period of servitude to Babylon, a period of desolation of Jerusalem, its Temple and the Land of Judah. Accurate Bible History and Bible Chronology prove that the 70 years began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE by King Nebuchadnezzer of Babylon in his 18/19th year (607 BCE) and during the 11th year of King Zedekiah of Judah and ended with the release of the Jewish exiles in Babylon under the King Cyrus of Persia during his 1st Year (538-537 BCE) using an official Decree returning to their homeland in 537 BCE. The subject of the 70 years has been and continues to be a most contentious within current scholarship with many interpretations offered as to the nature of the 70 years and its chronology. The most popular theory is that it represents only a period of Babylonian domination from either 605 BCE or 609 BCE until 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon, others refer to the period as that of the state of the Jewish Temple from 586 BCE the traditional date for the destruction of Jerusalem to the Temple's restoration in 516 BCE. All such popular theories fail because the interpretation of the 70 years does not consider the major elements as described by the Bible writers both in terms of its prophecy and history except the Jewish historian Josephus who discusses the 70 years in his Antiquities to the Jews in similar terms matching the above description as a period of Exile. The 70 years has proven to be a 'stumbling block' for scholars and critics of Jehovah's Witnesses because they ignore the fact of the Jewish Exile a period that historians such as Rainer Albertz have regarded the Exile aa a 'catastrophe'. Such language is very much descriptive of the Exile for and in Babylon uttered by the prophet Jeremiah. scholar JW
  5. JW Insider Jeremiah did just that. He explained the 70 years in full that would be a period of Judah being made to serve Babylon, that the Jews left an empty, desolated land for 70 years. - Jer. 25:8-11; 29:10. False. Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy was a judgement against Judah, not Babylon. Jer. 25:2 Correct! Jehovah's judgement against the nations is explained from vss. 12- 26. The expression 'these nations will have to serve Babylon for 70 years' can be rendered in different ways as shown by comparing other Bible translations. The problem is to whom or where are the 70 years applicable as set out in the Hebrew text so it is a matter of interpretation. We cannot know who these nations are as it is unspecified in this verse. Further, Rolf Furuli who is the first scholar to carry out a linguistic analysis of this verse suggests three possibilities as to the translation of this verse: 2. And they will serve these nations, the king of Babylon, seventy years 1. And these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years 3. And they will serve these nations together with the king of Babylon seventy years The subject here is 'these nations' and are described as 'these surrounding nations' in vs. 9 or as 'nations round about'. Thus, I conclude that 'these nations' are simply those peoples living outside the border of Judah who also would be caught in the impending maelstrom. A linguistic analysis of this vs. 11 and vs.9 shows that 'these nations as 'surrounding nations' are simply peoples living in close proximity to the Land of Judah. These '70 years of Tyre' relate to their subjection to Babylon and were made by the prophet Isaiah and not Jeremiah so we should not conflate the two time periods. One remains unverified historically as in the case of Tyre where no specific dates are given whereas for Judah we have historical evidence for its start and end dates. Your argument fails because we have two specific time periods or events by two different prophets only fulfilled during the Babylonian period under Nebuchadnezzer represented as a period of servitude to that king. Jeremiah's 70 years applies to Judah alone whereas Isaiah's 70 years applies to Tyre alone. You are trying to create history, best to just stick to what we know and what the Bible specifically states. Jeremiah's 70 years are for Judah alone and are historically specified but this is not the case with Isaiah's 70 years for all that these have in common is the same number and being dominated by Babylon for a period of time. The Jewish Exile was for a fixed period of 70 years and not 70 years or more. Those Jews who were earlier deported were of Jehoiachin's exile or 'the exile of King Jehoiachin' - Ezek.1: 2; 33:21; 40:1. Thus this deportation although termed as an 'exile' would be secondary to the EXILE in its fullest extent in accordance with the many prophetic warnings and judgements. scholar JW
  6. Screcko Sostar Please do and recognize that such a discussion is only made possible by those 'celebrated' WT scholars! scholar JW
  7. JW Insider No problem as the Exile as to its nature and chronology are clearly defined as a fixed period of 70 years and consisted of two other elements namely a period of servitude to Babylon and a period of desolation of the Land of Judah which are characteristic of a 'exile' which of course would include a deportation of the remaining inhabitants. Such three elements are the Exile and only went into effect at the time of the Fall of Jerusalem. Ezekiel along Daniel and others had already been deported some ten years earlier into Exile in Babylon thus it became their or 'our exile. scholar JW
  8. JW Insider The only relevance applicable to these two proposed dates 586 BCE and 587 BCE for that event in Bible history- the Fall of Jerusalem is that it highlights the contention within scholarship as to which is the precise date for the Fall. scholar JW
  9. JW Insider Only a few dates of Neb's reign are tied to the regnal years of the Judean Monarchy but such cannot be used as a pivotal date as such dates are contentious. It is far better to use the strongest and most celebrated candidate- 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon. scholar JW
  10. JW Insider The beginning of Babylon's domination is problematic even in the case of Judah thus it is best to heed Jeremiah's prophecy that the 70 years of Babylon's domination/servitude be commensurate with the Fall of Jerusalem in Neb's 18th/19th year and the deportation of the populace to Babylon as exiles leaving a desolated Land of Judah. scholar JW
  11. JW Insider It is not an act of faith at all but simply using a sound and solid date that can serve as an anchor point for OT Chronology thus one can then reckon backwards and forwards to construct a valid scheme of Bible Chronology. The date 537 BCE is well attested than the problematic 19th or 18th year of Neb. Well done in choosing 607 BCE as an Exilic beginning but you need to see that this year also was the date for the Fall which can only properly begin the Exile which was commensurate of not only Babylon's domination but also leaving a desolated Land of Judah for 70 years. This period did not end in 539 BCE but in 537 BCE with the Return of the Jews. There were no exiles but only ONE Exile with other deportations in biblical history of the Late Judean Monarchy. WT publications well describe the 70 years in its nature and chronology which began in Neb's 18th/19th year and Zedkiah's 11 th year for no other interpretation works. One Exile of 70 years beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 537 BCE. Both the Bible and WT interpretation are in sync. scholar JW
  12. JW Insider I am talking about the dates 586 or 587 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem which the Bible states happened in the 18/19th year of Neb. That is what is contentious! These two regnal years of Neb are irrelevant unless are tied to an event in biblical history such as the Fall of Babylon and the Fall of Jerusalem. scholar JW
  13. JW Insider Indeed I have all of the WT explanations right up to the present and I disagree with you. For example, the explanation in Insight, Vol.1, pp. 568-569 is simple and immediate or specific dealing with all of the attendant circumstances. Try finding in any other reference work a discussion of the year of the Jewish Return for there is no adequate treatment. Most definitely not. For the date, 586 BCE for the Fall remains the view of leading chronologists, historians and archaeologists right up to the present and Lipschit's published research into this era is a good example of this fact. There is no way one can compare 586 or 587 BCE with the established date 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon wisely chosen by WT scholars in 1949 some 75 years ago. What genius! What a masterstroke in biblical scholarship! A fact in which I repeatedly informed the late Alan F on this and other forums. May he rest in peace. Noted No it wasn't me. Whatever the case as with all good scholarship improvements or adjustments are made and that too is part of the history of our wondrous WT Bible Chronology. So what. Better than plucking figures out of thin air and ignoring obvious historical and biblical facts about the Jewish Exile and Jeremiah's 70 years as presented in current scholarship. The data is similar being of a secular nature, the two events namely the Fall of Babylon under Cyrus and the Fall of Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzer are of similar biblical-historical and theological significance but it is the latter date that is contentious- 586 BCE? 587BCE? resolved by the establishment of 607 BCE which is incontravertible. Well if NB Chronology with its regnal years of Nebuchadnezzar is without issues, with no assumptions then how come it omits any reference to Neb's missing 7 years of dethronement and how is it that the 70 years is not mentioned in the NB historical record thus proving a Babylonian Gap of 20 years? I say bunkum! scholar JW
  14. JW Insider Correct. Oded Lipschits gives the beginning of the siege in Neb's 18th year- 587 BCE and its ending in 586 BCE in his 19th year with the Fall of Jerusalem in 586 BCE and not 587 BCE. Noted Again noted! I would think that his understanding of this subject is based on current scholarship as noted in his extensive footnotes throughout his seminal work The Fall and Rise of JerusalemI, 2005, Eisenbrauns of which i have a copy. Because scholars believe and trust the current chronology but what they all have in common is to properly interpret and understand the importance of the Jewish Exile and the biblical 'seventy years of Jeremiah'. scholar JW
  15. Screcko Sostar The 'celebrated' WT scholars wish to remain anonymous and that is also the stated policy of the NWT Committee by way of comparison. Their origin remains unknown but they no doubt have been chosen by means of the Holy Spirit and were originally of the Anointed. Their qualifications also is unknown at this time suffice to say they both as a class and as individuals champion the Bible as God's Inspired Word. I hope this helps!! scholar JW
  16. JW Insider The Bible mentions only the following years in Neb's reign: 1st, 7th, 18th/19th, and 23rd each of which can be assigned a valid BCE with the first three of which were synchronized to that of the Late Judean Monarchy. These are the only dates that are of importance in constructing a valid scheme of Bible Chronology in my opinion. scholar JW
  17. JW Insider No. Both Neb's 18th and 19th year for our modern calendar along with 586 or 587 remain contentious within scholarship. Both the Fall of Babylon and the Fall of Jerusalem in Neb's 18/19th year and that of Zedekiah's 11th year are well described in the biblical account. The date 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon is universally accepted within scholarship whereas Neb's regnal years remain contentious unless synchronized to the regnal years of the Late Judean Monarchy. The regnal years of Neb's reign may well be documented in the Babylonian record but not in the Biblical record and the Biblical record proves a gap of some 20 years in the NB Chronology by means of the 70 years of Babylonian rule and Exile. Neb's 19th year or 18th year whether 586 or 587 BCE is problematic in its relation to the Fall of Jerusalem and thus cannot be used as a pivotal year. The only way that the 70 years remains intact is to view it quite properly as the period of Jewish Exile beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 537 BCE. Your methodology is flawed. The date 539 BCE remains the only pivotal date for the OT for no other date is its equal. Neb's 19th or 18th year is problematic for the Bible uses both as regnal data in relation to the Fall of Jerusalem thus creating a problem of methodology which has been noted by chronologists such as Rodger Young. Why are you surprised? I am simply using common sense and utilizing all of the biblical data. Not all dates have to be synchronized to another system to be validated. Cyrus only reigned for 9 years and the only significance is that he conquered Babylon in 539 BCE and released the Jews from Exile in 527 BCE. scholar JW
  18. JW Insider Correct, most if not all past and current reference books on Bible Chronology most support 586 BCE and 587 BCE as a contender for the Fall of Jerusalem. Correct because 539 BC has universal acceptance as a date for the fall of Babylon and the WT explanation for its computation is both immediate and simple. Bible Chronology should be simple and easily understood and that is why WT Bible Chronology is more credible than secular NB Chronology as it has an inbuilt complexity that has caused innumerable problems as it is based on regnal years which is its focus. WT chronology is based more on events in Bible history than regnal years. Of course, the latter has its due place in the construction of any scheme of Chronology but it does create many assumptions which of course are part and parcel of any Chronology for have I not said that Chronology is about interpretation and methodology. Correct! Guilty as charged for even though I have such programs on my computer I have not used them because I do not know how to use such programs relying on others with some caution. I disagree that knowledge and use of such programs are not necessary for an understanding of Bible Chronology for a knowledge of history is far more important and in this regard, WT publications have served us very well. It is my opinion that the use of astro programs is best left to experts as these can become very problematic. I do not believe that we have cause to fear from such programs. Furuli's claims should be tested along with all other hypotheses so only time will tell but there remains sufficient biblical, secular and historical evidence to validate 607 BCE for the Fall. The challenge for those who support 586 or 587 BCE for the Fall is that there remains no single line of evidence that proves either of these two dates or conversely disproves 607 BCE only many pretensions that there are multiple lines of evidence such as that of COJ. The fact is that there is at least one line of evidence that proves 607 BCE and falsifies 586/587 BCE and that is the biblical-historical-theological fact of the Jewish Exile of 70 years reckoned from 607 BCE with the Fall of Jerusalem until the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE. scholar JW
  19. JW Insider WT scholars in our publications have well explained the relationship and use of astronomical tables in the construction of our scheme of biblical chronology. In fact, when Parker and Dubberstein published their Babylonian Chronology 626 B.C - A.D. 45 in 1942 and 1946, WT scholars made use of this new material using establishing 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon as a useful date for this purpose in 1949 later be termed as an 'Absolute Date' and now termed as a 'Pivotal Date'. The reason why WT scholars champion 539 BCE as a 'pivotal date' is that it enjoys universal acceptance within scholarship and was a pivotal event in Bible history being fully described as being well placed in the context of the fall of Jerusalem- the end of the Davidic Monarchy. Only a few of these dates are mentioned in the OT and the astronomical evidence for all of these dates is open to question as shown by Rolf Furuli's research. Only those dates that are synchronized to the Judean Monarch reigns should be used for Chronology. WT publications have well explained how the date 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon is determined and such an explanation is both accurate and reasonable. By reading such explanations in WT publications which are in turn based on scholarship. Agreed, for very few Witnesses are interested or know Chronology. Both. I have an extensive library of books on Chronology as well as journal articles on Chronology back to the fifties as well as almost fifty years of experience in dealing with this subject. By extensive reading of all WT publications dealing with Chronology, reference books on Chronology such as Finegan, Anstey, Thiele, Jonsson, Furuli, James Ussher, Isaac Newton, Hughes and many Journal authors. He does not. He gives 586 BCE and not 587 BCE as do most historians and archaeologists following the tradition of Edwin Thiele. scholar JW
  20. JW Insider There is no doubt at all that you can fix the dates of Neb's reign by other means namely with NB Chronology and astronomical methods and arrive at various dates such as 586 or 587 BCE converted to our calendar. But the problem is that such a methodology does agree with the Biblical record which also provides historical data about events in Neb's reign synchronized to that of the Late Judean monarchy. Yes, the contradiction between the two chronologies- WT biblical Chronology and NB Chronology amounts to a difference of 20 Years and this is because of the 70 years which fact is omitted in the secular chronology except Josephus. If you argue that the 70 years is applicable from 586BCE? to 516 BCE then you are interpreting the 70 years only about the destruction and restoration of the Jewish Temple but such an interpretation ignores the description by Jeremiah that the yo years was a period of Exile-a period of servitude to Babylon and period of desolation of Judah. Zechariah's 70 years are identical to that of Jeremiah in terms of their nature, description and chronology which no sense applies to the restoration of the Temple in 516 BCE which is not shown either by Zech 1:12 or by the quoted Insight reference. Zechariah received his first vision in Darius' second year in 519 BCE but the 70 years described by the angel had finished in 537 BCE. Thus, the angel was simply recounting the already accomplished fulfilment of the 70 years. Further, those 70 years were to have been a period of the desolation of the Land of Judah but now at this time, the Jews had already resettled in the land. Do nothing. The astronomical evidence is also open to interpretation as shown by the research by Dr. Rolf Furuli but simply rely on biblical evidence as God's Word is the most sure foundation for faith. The only adjustment that needs to be made is a full recognition of the fact of the Jewish Exile which disp[laces NB Chronology leaving the biblical record to properly fix the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. Such secular chronology fixes the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE as a Pivotal Date used by WT scholars and all other scholars and this is simply methodology. WT scholars are not afraid but have and continue to examine all evidence that scholarship provides either past, present or future. I myself have completed a course in the archaeology and history of the late Judean /Babylonian period of the sixth=fifth century BC under the auspices of Prof. Obed Lipschits- 'The Fall and Rise of Jerusalem which was the textbook for this university course. scholar JW
  21. JW Insider I disagree. The biblical accounts in 2 Ki. 25: 8-17; 2 Chron. 36: 11,20 are very descriptive of the beginning of the exilic 70 years. This is expected as any scheme of chronology requires an interpretation of a historical record along with a methodology. The problem with this methodology is that you have chosen to ignore a major piece of the biblical/historical record namely 70 years which logically is the Exile proper and a period of the Jewish nation in servitude to Babylon whilst the Land of Judah lay desolate. The fixing of Neb's 19th year and that of Zedkiah's 11th year can only be determined if due consideration is given to the 70 years as these regnal years were commensurate with fixed events namely Neb's final assault on Jerusalem and its destruction, the deportation of the populace in Jerusalem and Judah, the dethronement of the Judean king etc, etc. An appeal to an external NB Chronology which has little to say in terms of history regarding these events is simply nonsense creating a false and misleading chronology. You need to as most historians have done, focus on the Exile as to its history and its theological significance unless you do this then you will remain distracted by the NB Chronology with its history and the interpretation and use of astronomical tables. The priority must be and can only be the Bible of the first order anything else is secondary. The biblical record shows that there was a first deportation of Jews to Babylon under Nebuchadnezzer in his 7/8th year but the Exile proper did not begin then as the land had not been desolated which would be descriptive of a nation in Exile. This information only shows that there was a deportation of Jews to Babylon which for those who would be in exile in Babylon thus described as exiles but this was not the Exile proper which only occurred some ten years later in Neb's 18/19 year. Indeed but this interpretation is consistent with the biblical record, an accurate translation of malkut as 'kingship in Dan 1:1, Josephus and Jewish tradition. scholar JW
  22. JW Insider Correct. What I mean to say is that the Bible does not give such dates in a modern calendar such as BCE dating. The Bible dates the beginning of the Exile in 607 BCE which represents Zedekiah's 11th year and Neb's 18/19th year The Bible dates the end of the Exile in 537 BCE which represents the 1st year of Cyrus. Now it is your turn: What is the exact date for the beginning of the Exile? What is the exact date for the end of the Exile? scholar JW
  23. JW Insider In trying to determine a modern BCE date for the Fall of Jerusalem one cannot the historical and biblical fact of the Jewish Exile of 70 years duration. The Bible gives the precise dates for its beginning and end along with its description including the experience of the Exiles whilst in captivity. The Bible states that it began in the reigns of Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and Zedekiah, King of Judah - Neb's reign, 2Ki. 36:8, Jer. 52:29; Zedekiah's reign, 2Chron 36:11, 2Ki. 24:18;25:2 thus in the BCE dating was 607 BCE for the beginning of the Exile. Similarly, the Bible dates the precise end of the Exile by means of the first year of Cyrus - 2Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1.which has the BCE date of 537 BCE for the end of the Exile. A competent scholar requires both in order to construct a valid scheme of Chronology. Do not forget that Neb's regnal data is synchronized with that of Zedekiah's 11th year thus ensuring a precise definition of the Jewish Exile of 70 years. Ignoring the defined 70 year Exile disproves not only the reliability of NB Chronology but any date based on that chronology which would include 586 and 587 BCE. The most obvious and accurate way to fix the reigns of Neb is to rely on the Bible and not the NB historical record which is falsified by the biblical account. scholar JW
  24. JW Insider The Bible does give the exact date for the beginning and end of the Jewish Exile which lasted for exactly 70 years. The above cited scripture along with the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 36:11-21 along with 2 Ki. 25: 8,21. WT scholars have done just that and have determined that the BCE equivalent is indeed 607 BCE for Neb's 18/ 19th year - 2 Ki.25: 8; Jer. 52:18 inc. his acc. and regnal years. scholar JW
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