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scholar JW

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  1. scholar JW
    JW Insider There is not one Chronology but several Chronologies for the Israelite period of the OT. There is for the Neo-Babylonian period, one Chronology. No. For it is you like most other scholars regard the NB Chronology as Absolute, making it appear as infallible unable to be challenged by another competitor which of course has been the traditional Bible Chronology. So, if we assess matters by this standard then it is demanded that solid evidence be provided for solid claims and that is why for such a significant event in OT history such as the fall of Jerusalem a precise or definitive date must be known and Christendom's scholars and apostates cannot give a definite solution to this problem. I do not need manipulation because WT Chronology is simple, based on simple dramatic historical events so it is easily understood especially when as a strong cable it is affixed to the fulfillment of Bible prophecies and that is its strength not the reliance on fictional interpretations of the regnal data. True, we live in a world where knowledge of many things is incomplete and yet with the bible we can construct a reliable and authentic scheme of Chronology which is falsifiable but at the moment there remains a 20 year gap or difference and that fact must be fully apprehended. Well I simply look at the information and note that the 70 years is subject of mush interpretation and controversy. scholar JW
  2. scholar JW
    JW Insider I meant 'false'. Bryan consistently throughout his article views the Exile has having ended with the Return of the Jews under Cyrus. Caution needs to be exercised her for Bryan's focus in his article is not the beginning of the 70 years but its ending which is not considered in his article , the Fall of Babylon but the Return under Cyrus. That may well be the case for Bryan does not provide definitive chronology for the 70 years but simply refers to various authorities but the major view is that there was 70 year Exile proper and that it ended with the return under Cyrus and not the Fall of Babylon. Well I am dealing with clowns. Your question is nonsensical. I have simply informed you of the simple fact that Exilic scholars such as the two scholars referred to state two fundamentals: 1. There was only one Jewish Exile 2. That Exile was of a duration of 70 years ending with the return under Cyrus. These two basic historical facts undergird or support that strong cable of WT Chronology. scholar JW
  3. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool My answer would be: The completion of his 4 years at Warwick. Did the said scholar pass? scholar JW
  4. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool You are the self-declared atheist so any view of the Bible rates zero credibility. Go and plat with your crystal set. scholar JW
  5. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool You have it arse about as usual. Babylon Falls-seventy years are fulfilled then Babylon is 'called to account' with its eventual desolation. Desolation is the 'calling to account' after the 70 years had been fulfilled. scholar JW
  6. scholar JW
    JW Insider False, the following paragraph:"Jewish literature handled the prophet Jeremiah's prediction that the exile to Babylon would last for seventy years is evidence for the belief that the exile had ended with the return from Babylon". (p.108). You really are a clown. i never stated that Exilic scholars support WT Chronology but supported the our view that the Exile began with the destruction of Jerusalem until not the Fall of Babylon but the Return under Cyrus which is also how Josephus placed the Exile along with WT scholars. scholar JW
  7. scholar JW
    JW Insider Nevertheless, a broad range of opinion is presented so these respective chronologies cannot be considered to be 'definitive' in order to preserve the claim of an Absolute NB Chronology. Nevertheless, these may believe in the concept of Babylonian domination which is also held by WT scholars with our Chronology but how this related to Jeremiah's 70 years is open to much dispute as shown in Niles' Thesis. The very fact that no definitive date of either 586 or 587 BCE for the fall is deeply troubling and remains a much vexed issue. Well a couple of years is a 'margin of error' and does not fit well with claims that NB Chronology is 'absolute'. The twenty year difference or gap between WT Chronology and secular chronologies is because of an interpretation of the 70 years which has no 'margin of error' being part of that strong cable of WT Chronology. These last 8 different scholars highlights the problem of interpretation of the 70 years and that was really goes to the heart of Niles' thesis about the necessity of recognizing those three concepts. Niles' thesis proves one thing that it is vital that only a correct interpretation of the those 70 years makes for a truly accurate Chronology of the OT which is what those celebrated WT scholars have done. scholar JW
  8. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool Really!! You have matters arse about. The 70 years ends then Babylon, its Kingship, Nation and Land proceeds into oblivion Desolation is what Jer.25:12 is all about you idiot! scholar JW
  9. scholar JW
    Alan F Well at least unlike you I believe the Bible is God's inspired Word. scholar JW
  10. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool Agreed! Nonsense. The Bible does not give a specific event or timing for the desolation of Babylon as described in Jer.25:12 but according to Jeremiah and as quoted by the Chronicler the focus of Babylon's judgement occurred only after the Return.The judgement involved the Kingship, the Nation and the land which would all become desolate, extinguished. scholar JW
  11. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool Jer. 25:12 is quite explicit as to its meaning and timing so just read the entire verse and not that desolation was its fate not just a mere eclipsing by another World power. scholar JW
  12. scholar JW
    Ann O'Maly Indeed. But worse was to follow for not just the kingship , but the nation and the Land would become desolate. One starts at 537 BCE for it is the established date for the return with the issuing of the Decree in Cyrus; first year as sted by the Ezra the historian and confirmed by Josephus the historian. Jer. 51:37 was certainly fulfilled by the time of the 4th century CE as noted by Jerome. The entire chapter, 51 contains the prophecy of judgement against Babylon which is of various stages of fulfillment which included the Fall in 539 BCE continuing throughout its turbulent history concluding desolation right up to our day. Just read the entire chapter as there is no need to 'cherry pick'. scholar JW
  13. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool Jer. 25:12 is quite clear that this is the judgement on Babylon that came into effect only after the 70 years had expired according to the Chronicler was not at Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE but after the Return with the 'first year of Cyrus' and was characterized not by the overthrow of a city but the entire nation and land would become desolated. Chronology, you ignoramus is about counting backwards.and as long as you have two key events in place one can go back or forward depending on one's pleasure. scholar JW
  14. scholar JW
    JW Insider You are sadly mistaken for you only have to read what is stated in the leading Bible commentaries on the Bible books that deal with the 70 years and the published studies on the subject in leading Journals from the first major study in 1954. Nile's Thesis gives a broad but in depth view of the range of views heretofore presented. In proof of this refer to the Appendix A, pp.68-72 in the above thesis. I will give you two scholars: Steven M Bryan and Rainer Albertz who nicely address the Exile as the period from the Fall to the Return. scholar JW
  15. scholar JW
    Ann O'Maly Young simply proposed a solution to the 586/7BCE debacle resolved in his own mind and not necessarily of his peers. scholar JW
  16. scholar JW
    Ann O'Maly Exactly! The rules of exegesis mast be applied to a correct understanding of this verse- vs.12: The text begins "But when 70 years have been fulfilled'. so one must determine when these words apply. Was it at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE or after that time? Ezra, the historian wrote that after quoting the same words of Jeremiah as quoted refers to the 1st year of Cyrus which was after the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE but to events subsequent to that event to events of the publishing of his Decree which released the Exiles in 537 BCE. In short, vs 12 commences a new prophecy having dealt with the 70 years of Judah a new oracle against the Nations begins a new context from the preceding verses 1-11 as recognized by at least one major commentary on Jeremiah. Next, again applying the rules of exegesis the verse 12 describes to whom and what the judgement would apply-King of Babylon, the Nation and the Land of Chaldea all together as a single entity meriting judgement. Clearly, Babylon was not desolated in 539 BCE. Finally, the verse describes the nature of the divine judgement -a desolate wasteland for all time'. Jehovah's judgement against Babylon was not a momentary or singular event in time but would be one of desolation which as a process occurred over periods of time even up to the present day. A careful exegesis of Jer. 25:12 shows that this verse cannot be used as a terminus ad quem for the 70 years of Jeremiah as this verse introduces the OAN- Oracles Against the Nations beginning with Babylon. You should convey this 'new truth' to Alan F and COJ for their education. The answer to your second question would be as reported by Jerome about the 4th century CE- Jer. 51:37 scholar JW
  17. scholar JW
    JW Insider The simple fact of the matter is that scholarship has always been confused over the 70 years and some scholars have because of their chronology compressed it to '50 years' if you read the literature on this subject. Broadly speaking, most scholars favour the 70 year Babylonish domination hypothesis but Exilic scholars support the Exilic theory rather than the Domination hypothesis. The Bible clearly defines the 70 years as a period of Servitude-Exile-Desolation only and your argument about a 90 year period is simply mischief making for 90 years is not stated in WT publications applicable to the Jeremiah. scholar JW
  18. scholar JW
    Ann O'Maly NO. Read the entire verse 12 because it refers to the fact that the King, is nation and the land would be become ' a desolated wasteland for all time'-NWT Such a process was not just a one off but would come into effect after the 70 years had expired which was 537 BCE so exegesis cannot permit that such a prophecy was fulfilled with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. This interpretation of these words of Jeremiah were fulfilled with the Return in the 'first year of Cyrus' according to the Chronicler which was after 539 BCE in 537 BCE. Unnecessary because Young simply employed a methodology to resolve the 586/7 BCE dilemma and his opinion favoured 587 BCE. Nothing to see here!! scholar JW
  19. scholar JW
    Ann O' Maly Correct. There are other models but which one is correct? No. it does not. Jer. 25:12 clearly proves that after the 70 years had ended then Judgement against Babylon, its King and the land of the Chaldeans would come into affect. The 70 years of Jewish Exile ended with the return in 537 BCE as confirmed by Exilic scholars such as Steven M Bryan in his paper 'The Reception of Jeremiah's Prediction of a Seventy -Year Exile'- JBL, vol. 137, No.1, 2018, pp.107-126. Just another confirmation of the strength and integrity of that strong cable of WT Chronology In fact, sound biblical exegesis supports WT interpretation of the Gentile Times and has nothing to do with typology of your mischief but firmly grounded in the historical realities of Daniel's day. In fact it is your conscience Ann that should prick you that something is wrong with current methodology even the latest proposed by Young has not yet been endorsed by current scholarship wherein 586 rather than 587 is highly championed. scholar JW
  20. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool The said scholar stands for integrity and truth, qualities that are not of your character!!! scholar JW
  21. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool Nope for our Chronology is in harmony with secular chronology albeit a little 'fine tuning' of a corrective of some twenty years. The 70 years is a major piece of Jewish history and those that choose to ignore it do so at expense of sound scholarship. The 586/7 dilemma continues to haunt modern scholarship from the days of Edwin Thiele which was heightened as real conundrum of secular chronology by Rodger Young who has not yet solved the problem and has not yet been solved. Young of course , ignores the 70 years as does Edwin Thiele and others. scholar JW
  22. scholar JW
    Ann O'Maly My explanation of the parallelisms is as follows: 1. The Divided Monarchy is the period of time that the kings of Judah and Israel reigned for a duration of 390 years based on the prophecy of Ezekiel in Ezek.4: 1-13. The period began in 997 BCE with the splitting of the kingdom of Israel - 1 Ki. 11:43; 12:19,20 and ending in 607 BCE with the removal of King Zedekiah from his throne in the 11th year of his reign and in the 18th year of King Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Jerusalem in that year- 2 Ki. 25: 8-10; Jer. 52: 12-14. Refer Appendix A6 'Chart: Prophets and Kings of Judah and Israel'. NWT, 2013. 2. The 70 years of Jeremiah the prophet is the period of time beginning with the end of the Judean Monarchy, the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, the Exile of all of its population in Servitude to the now dominant World Power, Babylon leaving a totally Desolated Land of Judah in 607 BCE. - Jer. 25: 8-11; 29:10; Da. 9:2; 2 Chron.36: 17-21; Zec.1:12; 7:5. The foretold definite historic period of '70 years' ended with the Return of the Jews under the Decree of King Cyrus of Persia in 537 BCE. Jer. 25:12; 2 Chron.36: 22-23; Ezr.1: 1-4; 3:1. 3. The 70 weeks of years of Daniel the prophet is the period of time beginning with the 'issuing of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem' which was in the '20 the year of King Artaxerxes of Persia in 455 BCE. - Da.. 9:25; Neh. 2:1; 5-8 with a duration of 490 years culminating with the appearance of 'the Messiah the Leader' in 29 CE and ending in 36 CE with the admission of Gentiles into the Christian Congregation-spiritual Israel.- Da 9: 25-27; Acts ch10. cf. Da 9: 3-23. Refer, App. 'How Daniel's Prophecy Foretells the Messiah's Arrival' in What Does the Bible Really Teach, 2014, pp. 197-199. 4. The Gentile Times or the appointed times of the nations of Daniel the prophet is a period of time beginning with the overthrow of the Judean Monarchy under King Zedekiah with the destruction of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar in 607 BCE with a duration of 2520 years or 'seven times'. Da. 4: 10-17; 20-25 and ended with the installation of Jesus Christ, King of God's Kingdom in 1914 CE. Da. 4: 17; 25-26, 32, 34; Lu 21:24; Da. 7:13-14; Rev. 12:5-12. Refer App.'1914-A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy' in What Does the Bible Really Teach, 2014, pp.215-217. The above referred WT article list four parallelisms but only two are applicable now and it is readily seen that the four parallelisms discussed as above fit the criteria in the WT article. One can easily see the relationships that connect and overlay each of these four major Bible prophecies and that is why all these together as prophecies prove that Jehovah is the Great Timekeeper and that the prophetic Word is made sure. Such four prophecies as many witnesses validate the date of 607 BCE in our wondrous Bible Chronology all based on that theme in God's Word- Kingdom of God binding each of these prophecies together to form that unbreakable 'strong cable of Bible Chronology'. This is a description of the four parallelisms or the four prophetic witnesses that comprise that strong cable of WT Bible Chronology so this is not fantasy as you claim. scholar JW
  23. scholar JW
    Ann O'Maly Nonsense. WT Chronology unlike secular NB Chronology is a strong cable of Bible Chronology whereas the latter is simply a chain of events- a string of beads. WT Chronology falsifies secular chronology by means of the 70 years. Further, it shows a twenty year gap between the two chronologies and highlights Neb's missing 'seven years' for starters and shows that the methodology for secular chronology is flawed because of the 586/7 BCE dilemma. Not a pretty picture!!!!! scholar JW
  24. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool The said scholar is a devotee to Mommy Watchtower just as you are a devotee to COJ!!! scholar Jw
  25. scholar JW
    Alan de Fool Boy, isn't scholar a naughty boy for making Alan so angry. It is interesting that it was not Alan F that finally provided the answer to my little test but JW Insider and it is only WT scholars that have provided such information using P & D as a source of reference. scholar JW
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