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scholar JW

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    scholar JW got a reaction from Nana Fofana in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Ann OMaly
    An update on Jer.25:11: I do not withdraw my comment that nowhere in the OT does the seventy years refers to the nation's servitude to Babylon and in the context of all of the seventy years of Jeremiah's corpus for this applies to Judah alone. However, Jer. 25:11 can be interpreted as it is read so in accordance with the insightful comment in Keil & Delitzch's Commentary On the Old Testament, Vol.8.p.374 it offers this interesting observation on 'these nations'. In short, these peop[es or nations which surrounded Judah would also be desolated and along with Judah would have to serve Babylon. So it could well be argued at the time of Judah' servitude, desolation and exile other nations also experienced that same fury whether at that time or later is unknown so the Babylonish intervention during that time may well have  extended beyond the borders of Judah which raise some additional questions of research. The text in view has a number of interpretations regarding its application to 'these nation's.in the context of the entire chapter. Rolf Furuli has discussed the linguistics of this verse with alternative translations.
    Another interpretation concerns these nations viewed metaphorically or theologically namely with the downfall of Jehovah;s kingship at Jerusalem with the end of the Davidic Monarchy it could be said that all other nations were now subject to Babylonian sovereignty. These are just short comments but nothing obscures the simple fact that Judah served Babylon for 70 years whilst exiled at Babylon leaving behind a devastated and depopulated land of Judah and perhaps beyond its borders. It is amazing how one simple expression opens many other doors for further reflection and research and I thank you for quoting that text.
    scholar JW
     
     
     
     
     
  2. Like
    scholar JW got a reaction from Nana Fofana in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Ann O Maly
    I brought Rainer Albertz up because his view on the timing and nature of the Exile agrees with us in many respects but not all
     
    . He begins the Exile not from 609 BCE the choice of many scholars but from the Fall of Jerusalem in 587/6 BCE but differs from us in that he ends the Exile in 539 BCE with the Fall of Babylon.  In that same paragraph on p.2 He begins the Exilic Era from that same event, the Fall of Jerusalem in 587/6 and ends it in 520 BCE which is OK with me. Also, he dates the seventy years from 587 BCE until 517 and not 609 BCE which supports our view but differs on the endpoint based on his interpretation of the two texts in Zechariah.
    I repeat nothing of any historical significance occurred in 609 according to NB Chronology. If there is something then state it but remember it must be of such significance that warrants the beginning of the 70 years.  
     
    Jere. 25;11 is problematic for all exegetes because ' these nations are not identified. This could refer to the inhabitants of Judah or it could refer to the peoples of the Babylonian Empire. There are a number of linguistic possibilities and the immediate context which targets Judah alone is the determinant factor.
    No  I have not checked Furuli's hypothesis as to its validity but others have and it has been subject to Peer Review. But boy it is impressive don't you think?
    scholar JW
  3. Haha
    scholar JW got a reaction from DespicableME in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    JW Insider
    After I had made a post to you this morning I was sitting on the throne whereupon much inspiration and meditation can be entered into for knows how great minds have constructed ideas which have altered the course of history or civilization. I thought of you and your need for some insertion regarding the 20 years Babylonian Gap. So, I propose that in view of the fact that NB Chronology is silent regarding Neb's 18th year when he destroyed Jerusalem and King Zedekiah's 11 th year that it should be at that time and event the 20 years could be inserted thus altering the traditional 587 or 586 BCE to 607 BCE.
    See, I have most dutifully corrected the problem.
    scholar JW
  4. Haha
    scholar JW got a reaction from DespicableME in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Ann
    Sitting on the throne gives time to review  another's foolishness and to refute nonsense.
    At least we agree on one thing-It is impressive.
    scholar JW
     
     
     
    scholar JW
  5. Like
    scholar JW reacted to Ann O'Maly in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Another very helpful non-JW/Bible-believing discussion from a respected journal for @Anna:

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  6. Upvote
    scholar JW got a reaction from Nana Fofana in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    JW Insider
    The Babylonian Gap of 20 years is proved by comparing that period with the 70 years of biblical history, The Bible specifies the period which was commensurate with the Babylonian Period therefore that Period requires that adjustment. Such a corrective harmonized all of the data allowing an accurate scheme of chronology to be realized
    The scheme of WT chronology.is a valid presentation of all of the evidence and can be tested and has been subject to scholarly inquiry over many decades but recent research has proven its validity such as in the case of Furuli's research into VAT 4956 amongst other things. I am no late entrant into this discussion but remain very comfortable not only with our Chronology but of others and have long debated these matters over decades with many different WT critics.
    You do not need a specific point to insert the twenty years but if you require some specificity I would insert it between the Neb's 18th year and the last year of Nabonidus' reign in 539 BCE for that will do nicely.Honesty requires consideration of all relevant factors so if you ignore the 70 years then your scholarship is compromised. This requires sound methodology and this is plainly evident because all factors are considered even secular evidence where necessary and relevant. There is no room for pretentiousness in Chronology but simply following the evidence where it leads.
    Traditional Chronology ignores the seventy years mostly and where some have included it in their schemes there is a lack of consistency in its timing or its nature is misconstrued eg such lists or schemes end it with the Fall of Babylon and not the Return so this creates many problems. In your last paragraph, I have answered your question in the foregoing: iNSERT the 20 years anywhere between 587/586 and 539 BCE and that will expand the timeline to 607 BCE. QED
    scholar JW
  7. Like
    scholar JW got a reaction from Nana Fofana in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    Hi Anna and JW Insider
    Let us be perfectly clear. The 70 years of Jeremiah cannot refer to Babylonish domination alone as dating from either 609 or 695 BCE for the simple reason that the geopolitical world at that time did not favour Babylon but rather Egypt as all good historians know. The geopolitical situation at the Dawn of the 6th Century had Babylon in its infancy with no hegemony respecting the land of Judah. This major historical point reality was made very clear to me when I was presented with a number of slides of maps for the region and time period prepared by the team led by Prof. Obed Lipschits at Tel Aviv University.less than two years ago. The online University program which I received a Certificate of Completion with a Academic Grade is called 'The Fall and Rise of Jerusalem'. Such a program of study proved to me that the 70 years could not have  begun in either 609 or 605 BCE because no event of any significance occurred at these dates to warrant the beginning of the most important event in Biblical and Jewish history namely the beginning of the Exile- a Catastrophe.
    Therefore, the only  possible event in history which could begin the 70 years is the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE which is exactly as the Bible describes In Jeremiah, Daniel, Chronicles, Isaiah and Zechariah.
    scholar JW
  8. Haha
    scholar JW got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in 607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?   
    JW Insider
    I have several issues with your post: Firstly, the dating of the commencement of the seventy years from 609 BCE is problematic for the simple reason nothing of historical significance occurred in that year further its ending in 539 BCE is also absurd because the Jews were still in Babylon after that date. So both the beginning and the end of the seventy years simply does not work. Carl Jonsson failed to resolve these problems especially the first objection as he wavered between 609 BCE and 605 BCE.
    Further, the seventy years of Zechariah are also problematic if we simply ignore the fact that Zechariah was referring to those seventy years that began with Jerusalem's destruction in 607 BCE until their end in 537 BCE. Again, Jonsson who discussed these seventy years in some detail could come with a coherent chronology.
    One can only conclude that 607 BCE is the only possible date for the Fall of Jerusalem and the beginning of the seventy years and with some fine tuning well harmonizes with the secular evidence. The date 587 BCE is unacceptable as it has to compete with 586 and other dates.
    scholar JW
     
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