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Gone fishing, The Watchtower DO support the utterance of demons, they acknowledge this by citing for support of their own teaching, an occultist! Gone Fishing, I thought you were a bit more astute, but it seems not, the Jews FALSELY accused Jesus of being in league with the Devil, how is that the same as the Watchtower agreeing with demon inspired teachings? Answer this simple question; did the Watchtower use the renderings of Johannes Greber’s NT to support their own renderings of NT passages? Yes or no? The Bible firmly condemns any alliance with occult teachings! <><

Gone fishing, You asked me for my perspective of the Holy Spirit and I provided that for you from the very scripture passages you referred to. Now it is clear to me that you only take those passages in John’s Gospel to be a personification, as does Otto. That is not describing for me what your idea of the Holy Spirit is. Please describe your idea of the Holy Spirit. Sadly you know JW’s want it both ways with wisdom in the Book of Proverbs; you would have it merely personified to help you explain away the passages in John’s Gospel because they go against your teaching about the Holy Spirit, but then also make wisdom an actual person to try and verify your idea that Christ was a created person. Proverbs is written in poetic and allegorical form, there is nothing in John’s Gospel to indicate that such is the case. It is that simple. Just to remind you, can you please describe your idea of the Holy Spirit? <><

Gone Fishing, Why do you think that this is “insignificant” in the context of the thread? Is it true? Yes! Luke 4 records Jesus’ interaction with the Devil, but nowhere in that discourse does Luke “support” the actions or speech of the Devil. So it is preposterous for you to say that that is similar! Does the Watchtower agree with the occultist teachings? Yes. Why does 1 Tim. 4:1 speak out against demon inspired teaching if it’s insignificant? Because this is what is to happen and is happening! Why play down the fact that the Watchtower is in accord with demonic teachings? The Watchtower's occult links are true. <><

Otto, My wife, in the marital relationship, belongs to me and I belong to her (1 Cor. 7:4) yet we are distinct persons. I belong to God, and if you are a true follower of the Lord Jesus then you too would belong to God also, yet distinct persons nonetheless, so your “belong” idea does not mean what you assume. You really should read Matthew 12:31, you can only blasphemy a Person, and to blasphemy the Holy Spirit significantly is to sin against Him. <><

Gone Fishing, The Holy Spirit is, as the Scriptures you quoted explain, a Person, clearly distinct from the Father (not a subspecies of metaphor as has been claimed) and distinct from Jesus. To quote from one of your passages you cite; John 16:13-14 “…he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come…he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you.” Throughout these passages that you quoted from John's Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak). It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and then to a thing. John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT) John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT) In the dialogue Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person. Notice if you will John15:26–27; “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…” Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. much more can be said but time is short and I want to respond to another person. <><

Mr Rook, Your claim is that Bible uses “figurative speech” and/or “subspecies of metaphor” to explain Scriptures that go against your false teaching, this is exactly what I said you JWs do at the start of this thread, and I said it in just a few lines whereas you required, well, many lines (tedious copy and paste). This opinion you JWs have (and it is just an opinion) fails when reading passages where the Holy Spirit and the Father are mentioned together which show that there is a distinction which exclude the of figures of speech (or “subspecies of metaphor”) idea that you want to force upon certain passages to try and make them fit into your little box of false teachings. I gave you one example already, here it is again. Eph. 2:18 "For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit" ["access to the Father by one Father (?)]. Clearly your opinion fails when it takes into account the clear distinction throughout Scripture. Here is a experiment you can do, why don’t you go through the scriptures and try substituting the Holy Spirit with active force and you will see how passage after passage becomes meaningless and absurd which makes active force a redundant option. <><

Gone Fishing, The JW’s speak how they have been taught. Did you not see what the watchtower claims? My question to you is, do you understand the language that you speak? Please describe your idea of the Holy Spirit. <><

Otto, Read Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29. <><

Mr. Rook, I began to read your very long post in the other thread, which I will address after I have read it completely, so please bear with me. My oversight in this thread is assuming that you are aware of the occultist, Johannes Greber, but it seems that maybe you are not up to speed on certain issues. In 1956 the Watchtower warned its readers about Johannes Greber occult practices (see The Watchtower, February 15, 1956, page 110,111). But then in 1962, knowing full well of Greber’s occult connections they quoted his demon inspired “translation” of the New Testament to support the NWT rendering of certain passages (see the Watchtower September 15, 1962, page 554). Then again in the book “Aid to Bible Understanding” 1971, p. 1134 and page 1669, they quoted him again with approval. And again in The Watchtower 1975 October 15 p. 640 Questions From Readers. Again in The Watchtower 1976 April 15 p. 231 Insight on the News. I trust that you will check these for yourself, and then you will notice how the Watchtower knowingly cited an OCCULT source to support their false teachings; now read 1 Tim. 4:1. <><

Mr Rook, You really should read Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29 it may help you see through your misguided delusion. <>< Â

Mr. Rook, Your argument is not a sound one, just because you think the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name like Christ does, is not recourse to assume that this mean the Holy Spirit is not a real person. If this were a valid argument, then, following your line of reasoning, a newborn child is not a person until he/she is named. In Scripture Spiritual beings are not always named; some evil spirits are rarely named but are identified by their particular character, for example “unclean” and ‘wicked” etc. The Holy Spirit is identified by His character, which is holiness. The designation “Holy Spirit” is clearly intended as a description of character. Also, it is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit is identified as YHWH, see Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29. <><

Gone Fishing, I have had JW’s describe the Holy Spirit to me as God’s “power”. Obvious some do think this while you imply you don’t. I’m curious to know, how you describe your idea of the Holy Spirit? I believe that the Watchtower identifies the Holy Spirit as “God’s POWER in action” on their web page. Maybe they mean “power” in another sense, you tell me. “In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action.” https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102006245 Does that surprise you? <><

Mr. Rook, I did give you proof, you just don't like it! If the Holy Spirit were not a person but a designation for some sort of attribute of God then we would not find passages where both the Spirit and an influence are co-ordinately named. For example the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant, "anointing with power and power"(?) That the Spirit of God is distinct from God the Father (just as the Son is) is seen from passages were you can try to substitute the term "God" or "Father" in place of where the Holy Spirit is present, here is an example; Eph. 2:18 "For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit" ["access to the Father by one Father.?!] More examples can be cited to show the error JW have, but you will more likely dismiss them as you have just done with the above. <><

Yes generally JW's regard the Holy Spirit as an attribute of God, but sadly this is just another error. <><

They used an occultist to uphold their false teachings (1 Tim. 4:1).

Johannes Greber...your move!

I find it strange how JWs will sometimes regard the Holy Spirit as an attribute of God; and at other times resolve the passages in which He is spoken of into a roundabout way, or indirect way for God Himself; or, to express both as a figure of speech; to me this shows that JW have no real idea, but will say anything except the obvious. In establishing the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, note when you read Scripture how frequent the Holy Spirit is associated (and distinguished) with two other Persons in equal degree! <><

The Watchtower has maintained a steady relationship with demonism, one just needs to consider how often they cite occult sources to support their doctrines and teachings!

I was speaking with a Jehovah’s Witnesses who mistakenly alleges that at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century AD is when belief in Christ’s Deity originated. Folks, the facts are these, the NT explicitly uses the Greek term theos (“God”) in reference to Jesus Christ. Further, there was a consistent application of theos to Jesus Christ long before the 4th century AD! Christian authors such as Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Melito, Athenagoras, and Irenaeus all spoke of Christ as “God.” These early Christian writers demonstrate that belief in the deity of Christ did not originate in the fourth century as JW’s mistakenly claim. What happened at Nicaea and after is a continuation of what these early Christians taught on the matter with focused emphasis on terminology and explanatory nuance to safeguard this truth from the ravages of Arianism, which, as history shows, actually was a fourth century invention! <><

Thank you Anna for the reply and link. Can I ask, is there an obligatory amount of magazines that a JW is required to have for distribution, or is that quantity up to the individual JW?

I have been wondering: 1. Do JWs buy the “Awake” and “Watchtower” magazines that they are required to distribute? 2. If so, how many copies of each issue are you required to purchase for distribution? 3. What is the current price for the “Awake” and “Watchtower” magazines? 4. What happens if you can’t sell all the copies for that issue? Do you get reimbursed?

Hello Mr. Joyce, My apology for this late response. The true church throughout the centuries has always said that Stephen, while being put to death prayed to Jesus. (for example see Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 3 Chapter 12; Tertullian, part 3 Book 6 “Patience” chapter 14, etc). A “polar question” or not, the fact remains that JW’s, on the other hand have flip flop on this matter. Stephen did… (The Watchtower March 1, 1922 p. 78) (The Watchtower February 1, 1959 p. 96) Stephen didn’t… (Aid to Bible Understanding 1971 p. 1329) Stephen did… (The Watchtower June 1, 1980 p. 18) Stephen didn’t… (The Watchtower December 15, 1994 p. 24) Stephen did… (Awake! February 22, 1999 p. 4) Stephen didn’t… (The Watchtower May 15, 2008 p. 31) I’m sure that sooner or later the Watchtower will again flip the other way on this issue which highlights the real “doctrinal insecurity” of the JW religion, whereas the true church for the last 2000 years has maintained the same unwavering truth! Stephen was a Jew and knew only to pray to God and in Acts he prays to Jesus, why, because Jesus is God just as the Father is God. <><

Hello Mr Joyce, Your response from the viewpoint of the Watchtower Society has to now be “no” (another flip flop), although they do agree that Stephen did; but in so answering they make some interesting claims that are not altogether true. First they make a statement that: “Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament makes this honest admission: ‘The word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient [manuscripts] or versions.'” True, but not the whole truth, because the full quote from Barnes is as follows: “The word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient mss. or versions. It should have been rendered, “They stoned Stephen, invoking, or calling upon, and saying, Lord Jesus,” etc. That is, he was engaged “in prayer” to the Lord Jesus. The word is used to express “prayer” in the following, among other places: 2Co_1:23, “I call God to witness”; 1Pe_1:17, “And if ye call on the Father,” etc.; Act_2:21, “whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord,” etc.; Act_9:14; Act_22:16; Rom_10:12-14. This was, therefore, an act of worship; a solemn invocation of the Lord Jesus, in the most interesting circumstances in which a man can be placed – in his dying moments. And this shows that it is right to worship the Lord Jesus, and to pray to him.” (emphasis mine) If they accept Barnes on the fact that God should not be in the text they should also accept Barnes when he informs us that Stephen is praying to the Lord Jesus and that Scripture indicates we can do it too. But no, they simply take the first part and ignore the rest. They then talk about the Greek word used: “Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words explains that in this setting the original Greek word, epikaleo, means: ‘To call upon, invoke; … to appeal to a authority.” But words have been missed out from the Vine’s quote which put a different light on the issue: “in the Middle Voice, to call upon for oneself (i.e., on one’s behalf), Acts 7:59” Clearly Stephen called upon, invoked, prayed to the Lord Jesus. The Society, albeit seemingly reluctantly admit this was happening but want to show that you cannot do it today. “Does Stephen’s brief utterance set a precedent for praying to Jesus? Not at all. For one thing, Stephen clearly distinguished Jesus from Jehovah, for the account says that he saw Jesus “standing at God’s right hand.'” What this has to do with praying to Jesus I am not sure. We Christians make a distinction between God the Son and God the Father but we can still pray to Jesus in His own right. Next they say: “Also, these circumstances were exceptional. The only other case of such an utterance being directed to Jesus is that of the apostle John, who similarly addressed Jesus directly when he saw Him in vision. – Revelation 22:16,20” No clear reason is given as to why, if Stephen prayed to Jesus and it was accepted, and John prayed to Jesus and it was accepted, you and I cannot pray to Jesus and it will be accepted! They end the article with this: “Although Christians today direct, all their prayers to Jehovah God, they too have unshakable faith that Jesus is “the resurrection and the life.” This refers back to an earlier paragraph where they stated: “He therefore asked Jesus to safeguard his spirit, or life force, until the day when Jesus would raise him to immortal life in the heavens.” Not according to other parts of the New Testament where the same Greek word, δέχομαι, is used. "whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time." (Acts 3:21) Heaven actually received Him and Jesus was in heaven. "So when He came to Galilee, the Galileans received Him, having seen all the things that He did in Jerusalem at the feast; for they themselves also went to the feast." (John 4:45) The Galileans actually received Jesus and He was in Galilee. "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet." (Matt 10:14) They were literally received into the home and stayed there. "By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed (literally received) the spies in peace." (Heb 11:31) Rahab actually received the spies into her home. "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!'" (Acts 7:59) Stephen was asking Jesus to actually receive his spirit and so he would be with Jesus in heaven; nothing to do with safeguarding for a future day. There is nothing to stop us praying to Jesus, indeed the teaching is that we should be praying just as Stephen did. <><

Did Stephen pray to Jesus? Acts 7:59 The Watchtower has said, “Every prayer is a form of worship.” (The Watchtower, December 15, 1994, p. 23) The Watchtower, February 1, 1959 page 96 in the section ‘Questions from Readers’ says, “the PRAYER offered by Stephen when he was being martyred is recorded at Acts 7:59, 60….” The Watchtower admits that this was a prayer! Stephen prayed to Jesus. Stephen therefore actually worshipped Jesus! <><

In a systematic biblical examination on the Deity of the Lord Jesus scholars look at three major contributing factors; 1. Jesus’ names and titles which establish that He is God. 2. Jesus’ attributes (the things that only God can do) validate He is God. 3. Jesus’ abilities (the things that Jesus has done) confirm He is God. There is more evidence about Jesus being God than there is that the Father is God. Is that not interesting? There are only a few passages that actually call the Father God. Concerning the Deity of Jesus Christ, we have direct statements. This is what certain cultic groups say is not found in the Bible. Jesus’ names and titles. This is an important and interesting study (recommended for all) about the names and titles that were given to Jesus, for example, in Matthew 1:21 it says that His name shall be called Yehoshua (Hebrew for Jesus), which means “Yahweh is salvation.” Some of you will read that and say, in a nice way, “Well wait a minute. You could call somebody “Jesus” today (as some were named in Biblical times) and it is just a testimony to the fact that Yahweh (Jehovah) will save. It’s not saying that Jesus is Yahweh.” Well only when on its own while ignoring the rest of the verse would this line of reasoning be valid, but we have a multitude of examples that show that the opposite is the case. So instead please read carefully what the verse actually says, note the specific personal pronouns that all refer to the one to be born. “She will give birth to a son, and you are to name HIM Jesus, for HE (Greek αὐτὸς) will save HIS people from their sins” (Matt 1:21 NWT emphasis mine) We note here that the word αὐτὸς is emphatic; and rightly so “For it is He that (he is the one who) shall save his people from their sins.” In this case the one to be born is being identified by His name. Who, in the eternal purpose He is, really and absolutely, in Himself; the very substance of His being, God the Saviour – God who saves, Immanuel (Matt 1:23). I have been very, very brief here, maybe to brief, however I do hope to stimulate further interest, so may the Holy Spirit, who on this day set the church alight, bring you to the knowledge that salvation is by the Lord Jesus. <><