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Cos

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Everything posted by Cos

  1. Hello JW Insider, I’m sorry that I couldn’t get back to you earlier my week has been very busy. You say, “Also, if Origen said "A" in one place and "B" in another, how do we know whether Rufinus picked the correct places to edit. Perhaps Origen would have preferred all his A's to be corrected as B's and Rufinus corrected all his B's and made them A's.” Origen did not say “A” in one place and “B’ in another maybe you missed how, not only Rufinus, but also Pamphilus, mention that Origen’s work had been altered by others. So how can we know for sure? By do
  2. Hello JW Insider, Please don’t take this the wrong way as I am enjoying our discussion and therefore don’t mean to be rude in this, but why send three posts when only one would do, I don’t get that, it seems to be a common practice by some here. I get a lot of emails, a lot, which I have to go through, so sending more than one reply only makes it more cumbersome to work with not to mention that it is difficult to follow your train of thought; I hope that you can understand this. If you want to quote what I say then just put in your post something like “You say, ‘such a
  3. Here are what some Greek experts say, “Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς, “God only begotten.” (Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament) “The best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read monogenēs theos (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text.” (Robertson Word Pictures). <><
  4. Hi JW Insider, What I think is that some mistakenly judge Origen by later standards, and that is why there are is a difference of opinions. He is at the centre of debates even after his own time. The Catholic Encyclopedia gives account of the controversies over Origen, but these had nothing to do with Origen’s treatment of the Trinity, see also the Encyclopedia Britannica. Instead of choosing sides, wouldn’t you agree that there is no better way to know Origen’s thought then to go to his writings, and not speculate why one person says such and such about him, while another somethin
  5. More likely the term “monogenes theos” (μονογενὴς θεός - God only begotten) means Jesus uniquely is what God is.
  6. Hello JW Insider, Thanks for your further comments. I really feel now that there is no need for me to respond to the other two posts as you have encapsulated what my response was to be, and that is that there are many scholars, as you acknowledge, that hold a completely different view on Origen to those that you quoted, such as E. J. Fortman, “The Triune God” page 58, expressing that “Origen is Trinitarian in his thought…” I also would have said that we look at the other writings of Origen which we have Greek copies of, because as Rufinus admits the alteration he made i
  7. Hello JW insider, What a surprise I got after I sent in my post, within 36 hours I receive not one but two well detailed posts from you, that’s quite impressive, and on top of that you also must have an extensive library to boot. If I may, I would like to respond to what you say, but I can’t do it in the same timeframe as your replys, it will take me a lot longer I’m afraid, as my family and work necessitate much of my time, so please bear with me. <><
  8. Hello JW insider, Thank you for adding more detail to your claim, I appreciate that. You make some remarks that I hope you don’t mind me commenting on? I will start with some of the claims made in regard to Origen. I always question comments such as “the tradition of left-wing Origenism”. I have read the works of Origen and find that he was not “left-wing” or whatever that may imply. You say after quoting a portion of an article that make this claim; “After reading this entire article and a couple others like it, I'm personally convinced that Arianism d
  9. To all! I’ve never seen so much hypocrisy; I am accused of changing the subject by a name caller, when it is everyone else going off subject. But “the Praeceter” is silent on this…why? You know when people get intimidated by the truth they resort to childish acts of trying to humiliate others by poking fun at them or insulting them, this is NOT how Christians behave…"by their fruits you would recognize them", I believe bruceq quoted this, and then there is the person who thinks his a duck…I have to scratch my head in wonder on this one? Hypocrisy seems to be
  10. Hello Mr. Joyce, Thank you for admitting that it is your own inability to grasp the vocabulary that defines the Trinity, even though it is not hard at all. I can break it down for you if you like…or you could just read what you claim you where taught while being raised Roman Catholic… it is all there with no hard words for you to get stuck on. The early church writers discussed and rebuked many false teaching, but nowhere do they even mention anything that resembles the JW form of religion until the Arians of fourth century. Surely if Matt. 13 applied, as you claim, to
  11. Hello Mr Praeceptor Your assessment means absolutely next to nothing. You claim that you can see what I’m doing, as if it is something sinister. Yet all I’m doing is addressing what another member claimed. This member said; “Whatever Clement meant or believed and wrote after the Bible was written at the time the apostasy had occurred actually proves the "Trinity" came after the Bible was written by your own admission.” Whenever you JWs don’t like what the early Christians said, then it is because of apostasy. Now you can call me whatever you lik
  12. It is claimed by JWs that shortly after the death of the apostles, the early Church soon fell victim to a full-scale apostasy, and thus the writings of the early church are irrelevant. When we turn to the Scriptures we see that there is to be apostasy, 2 Thess 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, 2 Tim. 4:3-4. Please note that these verses say nothing of a full apostasy of the Church. In fact we see on the other hand, Mt. 16:18-19, Mt. 28:20 and Acts 28:28 and also Isa. 59:21, that say explicitly that the Church will NEVER cease. So then the question needs to be answered, n
  13. Hello Mr. Joyce, I asked you to explain to me what you think Clement meant, and all you can say is “What he said. Is it that obscure?” I’m sorry but the only thing here “obscure” is your answer. Clement meant “what he said”… well no doubt. Maybe you don't really know what he meant, or maybe you do but don't want to answer. When I said that Clement only had access the Jewish OT, it is that he did not have the benefit of having the Hebrew Scriptures as we do. And as JW Insider explains, the other option, the LXX, more than likely has “phoenix” in
  14. Hello Mr. Joyce, What’s with the different post to answer one post? You responded to me in FOUR different post, what’s with that? I will respond to your posts in one post. You JW’s, or whatever Arian background you hail, when shown what the first Christians said and believed, make the ridiculous comment like “I do not see the word trinity here…”. You go one and say that you “find any attempt to draw a trinitarian view from 58:2 objectively to be futile” well then please do tell me WHAT you think Clement meant? Here is what he said
  15. Hello Ms O’Maly, You claim that the ANF “before Tertullian” tendered to be “Binitarian” is not quite correct, those that put this idea forward are themselves Binitarian. See my resent post to Eoin Joyce. JWs are not the only group that reject the Trinity, there are others such as Binitarians and Unitarians. What gets me is the JW “rhetoric device” you mention is a deception if you asked me, just a ploy to stop people reading the Bible and instead read JW publications. <><
  16. Hello Mister Joyce, My deepest and sincere apology on referring to you as “Ms” I meant “Mr” all I can say is that I for some reason pressed ‘s’ instead of ‘r’. Please accept my apology. You say, “General principles can be drawn from Biblical passages, regardless of context.” I disagree. Who decided what the “general principles” are? In fact 2 Peter 3:16 is applicable in this instance. One must be careful to not read their own ideas into Scripture that is not the intent of the author. I had asked you to explain what you were taught on the Trinity when you w
  17. bruceq said; "I noticed you had to go a hundred or so years after the Bible was written to find anything" Do you want earlier quotes? What silly comment will you then make? Instead of making such outlandish comments why don’t you ask yourself why the Jews persecuted the disciples in the NT if they believed the same as you claim? I’m sure we’d all like to know! <><
  18. Hello Ms Joyce, I understand that you are “not addressing a particular individual” but as I’m the one who started this thread, and considering your comments, I wanted to reply. Can I ask, what were you taught on the Trinity when you were growing up as a Roman catholic? I would like to know. Please try to refrain taking Biblical passages out context. In 1 Cor. 14:9 Paul is explaining the use of tongues. The vocabulary used to define the Trinity can seem daunting but it really is not. The uses of most of the terms were to fend off attacks by those
  19. Hello Ms O’Maly Thank you for your thoughts. Firstly you should look up Messianic Jews on the web, such as “Jews for Jesus”, and ask them whether they are “guided” and “influenced” to believe what they believe by others as you imply; I very much doubt it, but I can’t answer for them. Secondly, can I just say your comment about what you heard “by the non-trinitarian JWs” about reading the Bible on its own is strange, for the Watchtower “warns” JW’s NOT do this. “From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those, w
  20. Hello Bruceq, You bring up the issue of war. And that somehow this issue justifies your Arian claim. JWs proclaim “we don’t participate in war” so therefore “we” are correct. This self-righteous stance does not prove that God is not Triune. First of all, let’s note that under Charles T. Russell’s direction the then JWs (known as Bible Students) were “allowed” to take part in war. See Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Aug 1 p.231 and Zion's Watch Tower 1903 Apr 15 p.120, War is one of the worst happenings that confront all of us, we can only hope for the time when wa
  21. Hello Bruceq Thank you for your comments. It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT w
  22. Hello Mr Rook, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I myself am not Roman Catholic, but I am a little surprised by your claim about the people of Haiti, may I ask where did you get your information and statistics from? Also, there is a lot of discussion regarding Constantine’s motives towards the Nicene Council of the fourth century; the debate on this matter is wide open, but I refer to the early Christians who lived before Constantine was even born. Their belief in the Triune God is attested to by the witness of the early church. These first C
  23. The belief in the Triune God has been acknowledged by the early Christians...why do you guys claim that this is otherwise? <><
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