TiagoBelager

So, JWI, Why don't you take your theories, very heavily tinged with preterism as they are, and communicate them to the Governing Body? Well, if we are to believe you, all you need to add in your submissions of your theories is that some of them are somewhat like Ray Franz' theories, and like other responsible, not-disfellowshipped Bethelite brothers' theories, but who were not disfellowshipped because they did not promulgate them. Oh, but here your situation is not quite like those other brothers' situation, because you do promulgate what you feel are theories that have greater merit than what are currently identified as the doctrines that are preached by Jehovah's Witnesses, preached with Jehovah's blessings! Tiago

JWI, There were "several people" at Bethel and elsewhere who were aligned with Ray Franz, but when they were exposed . . . well, you know or should know their history. You preach on this forum that Revelation does not show us that it would be sometime future to the apostle John's writing of Revelation that Jesus would became enthroned over mankind. Since that event, he has power by holy spirit for building up and protecting true Christians for their continued existence in these last days as an international brotherhood, despite Satan's increased activities for bringing about great woe for the earth, and bringing about persecutions designed to crush the international brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses. Existence of the only international brotherhood is a miracle of holy spirit, and only in these last days has it become of sufficient strength and organization for giving a worldwide witness to Jehovah's satisfaction. But all of that is owing to the Lord's last-days enthronement. One of his first acts following 1914 when he was made the specially empowered King over mankind was the casting of the Devil and his angels out of Heaven. You cannot preach such things in good conscience, can you? Then you do not belong among us Jehovah's Witnesses. Just bring the preachments you have posted on this forum and lay all of them before the eyes of the elders in your congregation, and see if they agree with you that you deserve recognition as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

JWI, I would not want you at my side in field service. You do not preach the same message of the Kingdom that Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Your last post shows me that you are a preterist. Your message that you preach here does not cohere with the Scriptures. You say that you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses? No, you are not; in your heart you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Tiago.

The term "governing body" is a legal term, defining within the Christian system a body of men who are charged with responsibility for making sure that the Christian congregation is protected from sectarianism, from those who would create dissension through private interpretation. In the first century, such oversight was per force carried out in a time-costly manner because a congregation in a distant region might have to wait months for the arrival of envoy(s) dispatched with a letter from the governing body, or a letter from its duly commissioned deputy, the apostle Paul, who was approved by the governing body for his work (see Galatians 2:9, 10). The letter might detail corrections that should be implemented, decrees that must be observed to protect the unity of God's people (e.g., 1 Cor. 11:10, 16). So, Yes! A decree is a judicial/juridical term, and implies that a governing body had approved it and had dispatched men to deliver it to the congregations (see Acts 16:4). Surely we will not say that the pillars in the Jerusalem congregation, which included more men than just the group of the twelve, were in violation of Jesus' exhortation so that by that violation the men of the governing body issuing decrees had their position in that body because they had gone against the spirit of Jesus' words that "all of you are brothers!" And neither has the Congregation's present-day governing body violated the spirit of Jesus' words.

I do not believe that there is a Parousia separate from the enthronement event; the Parousia does not come later only after the time when Jesus took his heavenly throne, for Revelation alerts us that there would be a "short while" from Jesus' enthronement (Parousia) until the time when Satan's reign is over. Why give us such details in prophecy if God's people living in the last days are not meant to know their meaning/import for them -- to know why there is a period of greatly increased woe upon the earth? It is all of a piece; there are events occurring in these last days that we are meant to know marks establishment of God's Kingdom. Yes, they occur in the Lord's day; they help us see when the Parousia began. It extends from 1914 until the time when Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his Father. We should not have discerned such a Parousia so long as we did not have, among other things, the book of Revelation in hand. It clarifies Greek vocabulary for us, and shows us that many things begin occurring of special interest for, and involvement of, true Christians living in the last days since the Lord's enthronement and before he implements judgment against the wicked. So, Revelation must also be included as part of what God's people rove about in, in order that their knowledge should increase. It increases gradually and thus not by inspiration, not even inspiration for sake of correction . . . else why do we see it specified that roving about (in Bible prophecy, e.g., in Daniels's prophecies) at "the time of the end"/"end of the days" (vv. 4, 12 i.e., "the last days") would be the thing that results in knowledge becoming abundant, increasing? (Daniel 12:4, 8-13). In the last days is when those having insight will understand Daniel's prophecy; they understand it at "the time of the end," which is followed later after the end of the last days by Daniel's coming to be among those receiving resurrection from the dead. If one has incomplete knowledge/insight of the Scriptures, it will cause him to argue for things that cannot coherently stand in place in the light of all that Jehovah said should obtain for his servants in the last days. When we discern such incoherence, then is when we know that we have need of more insight. Just the same, somebody's argument that we probably lack insight into a matter at present should not cause any of us to take up a way of life that in effect says, "Why not this way of life? We don't know the day and hour. Who can say what season of time we are in as respects the nearness of when Jesus will implement judgment against the wicked?" One who responds like that to arguments made by those who do not appreciate the work that God's people are accomplishing in these last days reflects by that response a serious deficiency in his faith. Tiago

Even if what is being taught will, in Jehovah's timing of matters, become a thing abandoned, yet He can allow it until He corrects it. The saying went out in the brotherhood that the Lord prophesied that the apostle John would not die but would remain until the Lord's return. That was a wrong interpretation that Jehovah let go out among the brothers, but was not corrected until very near John's death. It did not make any of those brothers false prophets, though maybe they had let themselves become unduly excited in what they were saying now that John had become so very aged, relatively speaking. Maybe some of those excitable brothers in a short while even let themselves become embittered against John: 'Why had he waited so long to disabuse our minds?' Another and last-days example: the organization had pyramidology in the subjects taught. It was something that should not have been preached/taught, but it takes time to see the error in some doctrines. I knew that history before I was baptized, but it never colored my stance towards Jehovah's Witnesses who were teaching me. I have never felt any embarrassment about our history from 1874 right on up until today. I am proud of the selfless devotion of C.T. Russell, J.F. Rutherford, Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, and so many others I cannot take the time to name here. If there is no idolatry, nothing that encourages or excuses sexual immorality, nothing that attacks the holiness of our God Jehovah, nothing that would make us bloodguilty or overlook how it can be incurred, nothing that preaches abandonment of the Kingdom hope, etc., then Jehovah may for a time overlook errors in certain doctrines. Having said all that, I do not think at this time that the Parousia did not begin in 1914, but I think that there is a part of its duration in this wicked system of things that will be capped at Armageddon, but also that it will extend for another 1000 years thereafter. Yes, I see nothing that means that there were not 7 symbolic times that began in 607 BCE and ended in 1914 CE. (Discussions of Babylonian cuneiform tablets do not shape my judgment that 70 years of desolation ended in 537 BCE in the 7th month of the Jewish calendar; I see that a focus for the 70 years desolation on Judah is aligned with a period of time from when that land was not a scene for sacrifices to Jehovah until when such were restored, i.e., from 607 BCE to 537 BCE.) Tiago

JWI, I can say that your linguistic (lexical) analysis per se has merit. I myself have had for some years an understanding of the terms that are lexically as you have reviewed here. In fact, there is a bit of Greek grammar we call the epexegetical genitive that probably applies to "the sign of your Parousia," so that the semantic is "the sign that is your Parousia." So, why have I not communicated as much to responsible brothers? Because, to use an expression that Rotherham once used, "in fine" there need be no contradiction in a certain matter of eschatology. I will use that insight, for example, in our seeing 1914 as the beginning of that Parousia. In a foreshortened time perspective that is common in viewing last-days events through the prism of Bible prophecies, the Parousia may be described in such a way that focuses on the final day and hour, as though the Parousia is something consummated in 24 hours or so. But there is no contradiction between what we understand about 1914 and what we expect about the final end of this system of things. If the book of Revelation had not been written, then we should, with merely more knowledge of Greek vocabulary, have become very confused. Revelation alerted early Christians that much more should have to be accomplished by Christians before they would get their reward of the crown of everlasting life. Revelation gives us the basis for seeing that the Lord's day, during which preaching the Kingdom's establishment occurs, is not something done in a matter of weeks right before Armageddon. No, for that preaching must occur over a sufficient length of time so that "the error of the land comes to a completion." Peoples' bad responses to the persecutions of a righteous people will expose the nature of what is in the heart, because if they are craven cowards (out of fear of violent death so that they resist taking a public stand with God's people), then they are condemned for such wickedness. It is absolutely necessary that we remain united in our preaching if we are to remain in our Lord Jesus' favor. He makes prosper our work, and we prosper spiritually when we continue steadfast in humility, not pushing ahead of the Slave. Tiago

To all, Let none of us fall into the trap of thinking that there is nothing crucially supplied our relationship with God by the guidance/corrections we are meant to find in our study of end-times prophecies (see as an example that we are meant to find such prophecy in the book of Revelation at 1:3; 22:7). Revelation alerts us that Satan would, in these last days, set traps for ensnaring unwary peoples of the earth into works of the flesh and into idolatrous (political) schemes, things opposed to God's Kingdom and His righteousness. Jehovah's people have taken to heart the prophecy of Revelation so that we neither add something to dilute any of its warnings, nor hide/withhold in our preaching any part of the prophecy about the Kingdom and what role its establishment must have in our lives in these last days (cf. Revelation 22:18, 19). We know the identities of the various beasts and the identity of Babylon the Great; we know what are our responsibilities towards peoples of the earth for our trying to help them to respond to the call we participate in giving, namely, "Come! . . . Let anyone who wishes take life's water free" (Revelation 22:17). Read again the following passages in Revelation as to how invaluable and crucial to us is our understanding and obedience to Revelation: Revelation 2:6, 10, 13, 15; 3:19; 7:9, 10, 15; 9:3-11, 19, 21; 10:11; 11:6, 7, 11-13; 12:11; 13:15; 14:4, 6, 9, 10, 12, 16; 16:15, 21; 17:8, 9; 18:2, 3; 19:5, 6; 20:4; 21:8; 22:7, 11, 12, 15-17, 19. Tiago

JWI, Assuming that the posts are not numbered -- because I cannot find any such scheme here --, I can say that I wish that they were, because then I could reference exactly any posts I have edited. All I can say now is that I made an edit of the post I made just previous to my post of this one you are now reading. If you intend making response to it, please make sure you have read the (last) edited version. Tiago Â

JW Insider, The 70 years exile ended in 537 B.C.E., but not the fasts. Only 2 of the 4 fasts were fasts commemorative of events that were directly the cause of the commencement of the 70-years absence of sacrifices in Jerusalem. Jerusalem gets the focus, just as it did when Hezekiah reigned over Judah when Sennacherib's army invaded Judah and then besieged Jerusalem (see Isaiah 37:35 -- "And I will defend this city and save it for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David"). Jerusalem was the scene of the sacrifices to Jehovah, not Lachish. Nebuchadnezzar got the "glory" of despoiling Jerusalem of its being the scene of sacrifices to Jehovah, and that effect of that victory was per force kept in effect for 70 years, this despite regime change in Babylon in 539 B.C.E. The 70-years absence of Jews from Judah was because of their having been in Babylon up to a point in time for when it had to mean 70 years before the Jews were to be back in Jerusalem, and thus free for the first time in 70 years of effects of their having been in Babylonian exile, effects that meant a 70-years absence of Jews from Judah during which they could not resume sacrifices in Jerusalem. Lay all of that to the Babylonian exile. The angel's words in Zechariah 1:12 may fairly be explained for a meaning that earlier generations saw in his words. (See: Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges "12. . . . these threescore and ten years] Comp. Jeremiah 25:11; Ezra 1:1. The meaning is: Why art Thou still angry with us, when the appointed time of our punishment, the seventy years of our captivity, has expired?" The angel felt that the situation facing Jerusalem was like the situation that had obtained during the 70 years of absence of Jews from Judah: there still were no sacrifices being offered in Jerusalem on a temple's altar as there had been before the commencement of the 70 years that had expired about 18 years earlier. "These 70 years" becomes his intended hyperbole, which would have been neither poignant nor hyperbolic had he said "those 70 years." So, we are at an impasse. I understand your comments, and you probably understand mine. Respectfully, Tiago

JW Insider, I have made some corrections and clarifications in an edit of the post to which you responded. In the main, nothing of substance as might affect my uses of Zechariah 1:12 and 7:3, 5 has been made. Those verses do not stand as any hindrance to our using 539 B.C.E. as the fall of Babylon, and thus 537 B.C.E. as the year when the Jews were able to resume offering sacrifices to Jehovah in Jerusalem, thus ending a period of 70 years from when the the desolation of the land had begun in 607 B.C.E. In fact, absence in Zechariah 7:5 of mention of the fasts of the 4th and 10th months actually supports the conclusion that there really was an actual 70-years period of time that began with the absence of sacrifices, which was caused by events in the 5th and 7th months. And so it is understandable why Jehovah did not mention, in Zech. 7:5, the 4th and 10th months, and that because the memorial fasts in those months did not commemorate events that caused a real 70-years period of time during which sacrifices were not offered; the fasts of the 4th and 10th months did not fit Jehovah's rationale for why He was singling out for comment just a 70-years period of time. Jehovah's audience was only too painfully aware of what those 70 years had meant for them. Assuming that some were not merely keeping the fasts perfunctorily, but felt sadness for events that meant a 70 years absence from the land, we have Jehovah's assurance that they had the wrong kind of sadness, a sadness for their loss but not for what their sins had cost Jehovah. Whatever the motivation for the fasts -- whether for sake of just perfunctorily going along with the crowd, or whether out of self-pity, the fasts were hypocritical. They ought never to have commenced so long as they were not going to occur out of repentance, and certainly no good reason could ever obtain as motivation for why the fasts might continue, for they had been continuing now for about 18 years since restoration of Jehovah's worship in Jerusalem. Again, the verse certainly does not hinder our chronology, but actually supports the conclusion that a real 70-years absence of sacrifices had ended in 537 B.C.E., though the fasts themselves had not ended. Finally, some Jews were sensing the nation's problem with the fasts, and so they wanted Jehovah's viewpoint about whether to continue the fasts. Jehovah pointed out that the nation indeed had a problem with the fasts' continuance. Why, they had had an unrecognized problem with them even during the nation's 70-years absence from the land when they were keeping the fasts in Babylon. During those 70 years, they really were making displays of hypocritical sadness. Respectfully, TiagoBelager

Zechariah 7:5 expressly relates that there were lamentations and fasts that the Jews had practiced in the 5th and 7th months as commemorations of events that had occurred in those calendar months, events that began an absence from Jerusalem of sacrifices being made to Jehovah. During just those 70 years, sixty-eight (68) 7th-month memorial fasts might have seemed appropriate, because the land had remained desolated without sacrifices offered to Jehovah in Jerusalem. But even when conditions were as they had been for the 70 years, were the fasts and wailings, which occurred ritually in the 5th and 7th months within the 70 years that the Jews were absent from the land, really observed by most Jews out of repentant hearts? No, and now that the 70-years desolation had ended, it should be apparent to all right-hearted inhabitants in Judea that continuation of the annual, commemorative rituals now for a grand total of “O how many years” (Zechariah 7:3; thus a total of even more than whatever was the total number of times they were observed during the 70 years of exile, for those fasts were observed during an additional period of 19 years ending in 518 B.C.E., Darius Hystaspis' 4th year) had become entirely perfunctory with no basis for even a hypocritical pretext of fasting and lamentation out of sadness, this since restoration had already occurred after the 70 years exile. After all, even during the 70 years of real loss to the Jews (the loss of the temple, and loss of Jerusalem as habitation for anyone who might want to use the site for sacrifices (compare Jeremiah 41:5)), the displays of ritual sadness were, for the most part, not done out of godly sadness/repentance—not so for most Jews, anyhow, but had become rituals done perfunctorily. The 5th month’s ritual of hypocrisy was commemoration of Nebuchadnezzar’s razing of the temple (see Jeremiah 52:12, 13) and the emptying of Jerusalem (Jeremiah 40:1-13); and the ritual of hypocrisy in the 7th month was commemoration of the last time for 70 years to come that any Jews might have gone back into Jerusalem for sacrifices. The site would not become available for sacrifices until the end of 70 years of the Jews being off the land, for nobody was in the environs of Judah for 70 years following the destruction of the city (see events recorded in Jeremiah 41:1ff). It is therefore significant that the fast of every 4th month and the fast of every 10th month were not fasts in commemoration of events that meant a period of 70 years defined as the period of time during which Jerusalem was without inhabitants and was no longer a place where sacrifices to Jehovah were being performed. Those sacrifices were resumed upon restoration of the Jews to the land of Judah (Ezra 3:1-6). That is why Zechariah 7:5 does not mention the 4th and 10th months’ ritual fasts, for they were not commemorated as events that had brought about the beginning of the 70 years of absence of Jews from Judah. After 70 years of loss of sacrifices in Jerusalem, then were sacrifices resumed, right on time in the 7th month. What do the angel's words "these 70 years" in Zechariah 1:12 mean? The angel's words were spoken about 18 years and 7 months after sacrifices had been resumed in Jerusalem; however, at the time he spoke, work on the temple had been suspended and outlawed, this so that no temple had been rebuilt in Jerusalem. Nobody, then, can make the argument that '"these 70 years" were words indicating that there had come into existence a real passage of time, a real period of time (of denunciations from Jehovah) that had finally become a total of 70 years only about the time when finally the angel spoke out of his sadness of heart about the situation in Jerusalem.' Now, what follows is my reflection on what the I believe the angel likely intended by his words, which is that the angel's words are a simile spoken in hyperbolic fashion. If so, then the angel's words were his way of making it known that the temple's having yet to be rebuilt put him in mind of Jehovah's judgment against Jerusalem that really had stood in place for 70 unbroken years. For the angel, the situation in Jerusalem made him feel like it was still a matter of an on-going, unbroken punishment, as though 'the foretold 70 years for deserved punishment must not have already been fulfilled.' Although the foretold 70 years of judgment really had come to their end, yet the angel still felt for the same reasons the same sadness that had come upon him at the commencement of the 70 years desolation, as though he had yet to see "these 70 [foretold] years [of punishment]" come to their end. Because sacred service to Jehovah in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem had yet to occur, then that let enemy nations draw the wrong conclusions about Jehovah and whether His eye really was on Jerusalem. Jehovah let the angel know that He (Jehovah) would soon act in a way that would sanctify Him in Jerusalem in the sight of enemy nations that He would set a-trembling by events that He would bring about in Jerusalem.

Jesus' apostles were undoubtedly perplexed that (earthly) Jerusalem was not to be the scene of an irruption (sic) of divine power for giving Jesus a throne in Jerusalem as manifestation that Messianic kingdom rule had begun once again in Jerusalem with Heaven's backing. And if such were not in store for Jesus in connection with Jerusalem, then exactly what should they expect--where should they look--for any visible manifestation that finally the time had come that God had given Jesus a Messianic (Davidic) throne? No, Jesus would not be holed up in some desert redoubt with an army of sword-bearing warriors, nor would he be secretly conspiring with any Jewish nationalists for subverting Roman rule by whipping up the masses for frenzied attacks against Roman soldiers in Judea. Now, the book of Revelation is meant to refine the thinking of Christians as to the nature of the Parousia (see Rev. 1:10, 19; 6:2). Would the Parousia involve miraculous manifestation of divine power for securement of Jesus' throne? Yes, but it should require eyes of faith to see it (compare Revelation 12:1), just as it did for anyone seeing (appreciating) "the sign of Jonah" (Jesus' resurrection), because even though one may not be able to bear eyewitness testimony that he had ever seen the resurrected Jesus, yet still by his eyes of faith he knows Jesus lives even as one made alive in a glorified, spiritual organism (see 2 Corinthians 5:16). And though the book of Revelation helps us to see that even though the Parousia involves a miraculous irruption of divine power for the enthronement of the heavenly Son of God, and that it requires eyes of faith to see it, yet should we not also see that the Parousia is not brought to an end just as soon as Jesus' heavenly throne has been secured against any further attempts by Satan and his angels to ruin the enthronement event (see Rev. 12:3-10)? Yes, we should see as much. Jesus has much to accomplish during all the time of his royal visitation (+1000 years)--much more to accomplish during all the time he has his heavenly throne for his giving special attention to what all goes on here on earth before the last enemy is brought to nothing (see Rev. 6:1, 2, 9-11; 7:9-17; 11:15; 12:10-12; 17:9-11 for some of the things that take place over an extended period of time during -- after commencement of -- the Lord's day/Parousia).

We know that the men who govern Christian.Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses are not writers of God-inspired messages; they do not write material on a par with the Scriptures. What we do know is that the first-century Christian congregation had a governing body, and a work greater in scope than what Christians accomplished in the first century is being accomplished in these last days, which again requires existence of a governing body, too. Refinements in doctrine are to be expected, maybe even as will yet affect the way we view the date 1914.. What I mean is this: we do not push ahead of direction from our Governing Body so that we remain in harmony in preaching a message that is not garbled with discordant "notes" that are off key, but remains a message that is a clarion call for all hearing it that they should be spiritually ready for the great day of God the Almighty. When it becomes Jehovah's time for refinements, we will all of us get them at the same time so that we remain united.