Albert Michelson

32 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Loyalty to my Creator

It always upsets me when JWs call the WT their creator or say they must be loyal to jehovah when in truth they are talking about the organization, that being said you do what you need to do. I wish you all the best and I hope your marriage continues to flourish 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Besides, there is a certain air of comedy about this entire forum

Some of my jabs have been intentionally sarcastic and in my opinion humorous. I appreciate that we can poke fun at eachother and still have a mostly civil conversation.

43 minutes ago, bruceq said:

I had a cousin back in the late 70's who was an elder who became apostate and ridiculed the teaching of 1914 and became a leader of a group of them picketing District Conventions in the early 80"s that is until his name showed up in the newspaper for being a john for a prostitute then for some reason the picketing stopped and they disappeared.

Hmmm kinda reminds you of all the JW elders and their secret sins.  I love how witnesses always ask for the indiscretions of their members and leaders to be overlooked but continually harp on or about any issue with Ex members.  The hypocrisy is palpable.

54 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Oh! I don't know, let's see. Can you go back in time to change the commencement of WW1?

Can you go back in time to prevent the British from freeing the Jews in late 1913 early 1914?

Wait you forgot The Panama Canal, Safety Glass, Traffic cones, Fortune cookies, and Plastic they were all finished being made or were invented in wait you guess it 1914! That must mean it's true! I mean look at this conclusive evidence, these things couldn't have been a coincidence nope no sir I see gods hand all over this bad boy. Bahahahahaha 

50 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

You guys keep coming up with the same thing year after year without disproving it!!

So you just haven't done the research?

the-gentile-times-reconsidered.pdf

50 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

No! sorry, Charlie, It's up to the opposers.

nope, you claim it's true, you claim god chose them and it's his organization then you have the prove it plain and simple.

57 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Oh! I don't know, let's see. Can you go back in time to change the commencement of WW1?

Can you go back in time to prevent the British from freeing the Jews in late 1913 early 1914?

Bahahahahahahaha wait you think that's evidence. 

1 hour ago, J.R. Ewing said:

this heretical thought that it’s up to us to prove it, is subjectable since they’re the ones that bring it up. So, it’s for them to prove it wrong. Now, on the other hand, Pastor Russell, proved to the world, his calculations he started 40 years earlier came to a completion. That event was confirmed by worldly conditions.

Wrong it's the JWs who are making a positive claim, they are ones who have to prove it. A claim like that ( Jesus coming invisiblely and selecting your organization as his religion and your leaders as his sole channel of communication) is not true until proven false it needs to be  proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. It can be disproven beyond any reasonable doubt but the onus is on the witnesses to prove their claim, as the saying goes "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

1 hour ago, J.R. Ewing said:

is now bent on discrediting the Watchtower in every possible way by insinuating the 1914 doctrine is “false”, when NOT, any ex-witness can “disprove” it.

I'd be very interested in what you would consider proof that the teaching isn't true. 

1 hour ago, J.R. Ewing said:

anyone wishes to “read” the “TRUE” transcript of the case, it’s available online. Just be careful, since “apostates” have rewritten some pages of the transcript to bolster their ignorant claims. One, that has been submitted here already is a good example since it was gathered by an apostate book.

Ok show me what I misrepresented 

9 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

That's horrible. I can assure you that many JWs would not do something that insensitive. 

I moderate an ex JW support group, it's the rule not the exeption. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is good food because it makes you nicer over the years. See? Aren't they all nice here?

You are, the witnesses telling my wife and I that we're going to die and calling us horrible names because we aren't going to meetings aren't. 

 

23 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

some opposers are demagoguing it up -insinuating,

Nope that's not what we say that's strait from the leadership (see picture below)

 

23 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

supposedly 'naive' or 'false' claims that it's voluntary,

Um it isn't, not for many at least. And it's just as much an issue of information control and maintaining authority as it is keeping the group "unified".

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

For some reason they brought one back.

 Yeah I haven't really done a sweep of all the doctrines to see which ones are type and anti-type still but I'm sure there are more than just the three that I listed.

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

FWIW, I think you have at least a partial point on all the other pieces of the puzzle you mentioned. But I'm not sure how you manage the beliefs surrounding Armageddon and the Millennium. I know there are a lot of options, but I was wondering how you work out "next the end, when he hands the Kingdom back to his father." (1 Cor 15:24)

 Sorry I was rushing through my breakdown of some of these things so I didn't explain it very well.  I think you included this in your list of issues with the 1914 teaching but I personally believe that the Bible makes it pretty clear that Jesus took the throne after ascending to heaven  in the first century.  So his rulership continues for an  unspecified amount of time and at some point during that rule the 144,000 would be resurrected  and they would begin to rule with him but only for 1000 years.  So what I was trying to say is that it is their rulership that is only 1000 years not his. 

 Now I know there are some technicalities here because technically the organization teaches that there are two kingdoms.  The whole kingdom of the son of his love thing that they instituted in order to explain how Jesus could have taken kingdom power in the first century and then taken it again in 1914 

13 minutes ago, Albert Michelson said:

 Sure they got  rid of most of what Fred Franz had concocted  but they still have a lot left over.

Oh and  I always find it hilarious whenever the organization tries to claim that they've provided wonderful spiritual food throughout the years.  I don't know how anyone examining the material that the organization has produced could in good conscience call it good food. 

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Besides,

9 hours ago, Albert Michelson said:

Don't get me started on all the other type and anti-type BS that The organization has pushed on people over the years

they changed that.

The 1914 doctrine is a type and anti-type and is the most fundamental doctrine that they have and they have yet to get rid of that.  Oh  and their belief  that Isaiah encouraging the people to return to Jerusalem was a type and the new world that God would establish would be the anti-type.  Oh and that Charles Russell was the anti type of John the Baptist and was the one clearing up the way in Malachi.  I can't think of anymore off the top my head but there are a ton more where Jehovah's Witnesses still have type and anti-type teachings that don't match the Bible whatsoever or that at least require huge leaps of faith with absolutely no evidence to support them.

 Sure they got  rid of most of what Fred Franz had concocted  but they still have a lot left over.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. They're not.

Why harp on them, then? Who cares?

 

 The 10 that I listed are fundamental doctrine's but  The long list of unimportant doctrines I don't feel need to be included.  I ended with one example but there's probably a lot more that I can think of.  Oh like how they teach that animals didn't die before Adam and eve sinned even though they accept that the earth is billions of years old and that animal life has been on the planet for much longer than human life.   They don't stress that doctrine but it still is technically what they believe, look up the wt  references to genesis 2:4 

 

 Oh and as far as who cares apparently they do considering the fact that if you don't believe these doctrines you can be cast out of the congregation and shunned by all of your friends and family.  They're especially concerned with the 1914 doctrine for the reasons that I mentioned before.  And you really don't see anything wrong with teaching a false gospel (good news) do you?  In my experience JW's will rationalize everything away.  Well at least we don't teach the Trinity, hellfire, or immortality of the soul

 

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is especially true if his own puzzle lies unassembled in the box.

Well let's talk about how well assembled your puzzle is. I'll list a few of the things I believe JWs have wrong.

1.The 607, 1914, 1919  teaching/s. The implications of this as I've already pointed out is that not only was the organization not selected by God in 1919 like they claim but that they've been teaching a false gospel. Galatians 1:8-9

2. It follows that if the 1914 teaching is incorrect then the generation teaching is also incorrect. What my bad, I mean the overlapping generation teaching.

3.The belief that the parable of the faithful and discreet slave was a prophecy predicting a group of guys claiming to be chosen by god in the 20th century rather than a parable applying to all Christians although especially those serving as overseers in the congregation. 

4.The teaching that the Jerusalem Council was a Governing Body rather than a one time meeting. 

5.The teaching that there are two hopes for Christians, that the 144,000 go to heaven and that only the 144,000 make up spiritual Israel. By extension this would also mean that the JW's practice of only having those who claim to be one of the 144,000 partake of the emblems is incorrect. This also ties into their teaching regarding what it means to be born again which I also believe is incorrect.

6.That The Scriptures it in Isaiah (that were already fulfilled) and in other places in the old testament point to God establishing an earthly paradise for humankind. I will admit that The Bible is very vague about what the new heavens and new earth will be but it's pretty clear that just as Christians will be remade in a spiritual sense so will the heavens and earth. JW's pick and choose were they decide to render the Hebrew word for time indefinite/forever as either time in definite or forever. They choose this based on their own preconceived ideas and thus they have the idea that the earth will remain forever rather than for time indefinite i.e. Until a time when it is been designated to be destroyed/remade. Almost all Christians eschatology when you get down to it technically teaches the same thing that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in with the exception that they don't believe that the earth that will be inhabited by The spiritually remade Christians is the exact same earth that we live on now. 

7.That Malachi 3:1 somehow had a secondary fulfillment in Charles Russell. Don't get me started on all the other type and anti-type BS that The organization has pushed on people over the years but I decided to pick that one as just one current example there are many more. 

8.The teaching of Christ's millennial year reign. In reality the Bible says nothing about Jesus ruling for only 1000 years. The scriptures that they point to to support this say that the ones "executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus" would come to live and rule for 1000 years. It is their rule that lasts a millennium not Jesus. Revelation 20:4

9.The concept of "new light" especially transmitted in such a unreliable way.

10.The teaching that shunning is scriptural. 

That's all I could think of off the top of my head but there are more. Granted they're not fundamental doctrines but just little things, oh like the mass resurrection after Jesus death was just dead bodies thrown from the grave. Apparently they weren't brought back to life they were just spat out. 

On 8/30/2017 at 8:01 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

When one has assembled the jigsaw puzzle and reproduced the box cover mountain vista, you are not easily put off by the critic who insists you have it all wrong. This is especially true if his own puzzle lies unassembled in the box.

That's a bad analogy, a better one would be a story that had been told and retold. Some have a more accurate version of the original than others. Everyone claims theirs is the original or is the most accurate and so you choose the one that you think sounds right.  You trust that the ones telling you the story have it right and so when someone presents evidence that they don't you reject them and refuse to listen. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I prefer comments well-rounded, in appropriate context, and not thrust upon me by someone who so pleadingly and pathetically has an agenda

And yet you trust the WT lol

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You go to congregation meetings and each convention. It must be pure hell for you, gnashing your teeth at every word. I don't mean to be unkind here, but....what kind of a loser does that?

One that's being blackmailed.

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I never heard of him before, and am unlikely to hear of him again. He has a life. He is going to get back to it when this battle is done, whether he wins or loses.

Well that's true idk if I'm going to frequent this site or not but it has yealded some interesting discussion. 

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Humans were not designed to rule themselves. It’s not an ability they have, the same as they cannot flap their arms and fly. Whether through greed, ignorance, pride, cowardice, or some mix of the four, the record of human rule aptly illustrates Jeremiah’s words:

I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. (Jeremiah 10:23)

Um yeah people are shitty and government and power always  have at least some level of corruption. How does that prove you have the true religion again?, or are we back to the warm feelies?

9 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

On 8/28/2017 at 9:11 PM, JW Insider said:

And, of course, shunning and punishment should never be used for persons who have questioned a doctrine for Biblical reasons.

That's really the crux of all the problems with the organization. Rank-and-file JWs do not have the right to question any doctrines--even with Biblical support. Only the GB can correctly interpret the Bible. Only the GB can make "refinements" in doctrine. If we have a disagreement with a doctrine, we must quietly wait with the hope that it might get changed someday.

That reminds me of the Walsh trial

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

though it looked substantial, there was nothing much there.

Funny that's exactly how being a witness was/is for many people I know. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The thing you are orgasmic about is that you have chosen a place where no one can tell you what to do.

No the thing that I'm "all orgasmic about" is the freedom to do objective analysis of claims and to speak and believe honesty. As I said before the comfort you receive from the answers you get from your leaders is all fine and good but don't act like because you get to feel all warm and fuzzy inside that that says anything about the truthfulness of your beliefs or that someone else is going to see that as a fair trade for honesty. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

ou are likely to find that manipulation from human scheming in the form of Big Government, Big Business or Big Independent Wisdom ultimately take such a toll that the Governing Body will look positively like doddering and kindly old grandparents in comparison

Nope I find them equally manipulative ( except for big independent thinking idk what that is) however the difference at least in the country I live in is that I'm allowed to  openly criticize this corruption and pointed out.  As I said before you may feel that the warm feelies are a good trade off for intellectual honesty and freedom of thought/speech but I do not. 

28 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We have a video of someone who left the truth and came back, cautioning others to not do it. "The world will chew you up and spit you out," he says. I don't care for that video. It is not true. Sometimes 'the world' chews you up but does not spit you out. Sometimes it spits you out but does not chew you up. A prime example of the latter lies in the hospital geriatric wing, where a relative works as a nurse. She tells of people experiencing severe letdown at the curtain call, who look around and say (not literally) "is this all there is?" These are not losers. These are persons who have had successful careers and have raised caring families. But as the end draws near and their bodies ungracefully fall apart, they say "is this all there is?"

Well once again "world" is just a term that  The organization uses in order to create a sense of separation and us versus them.  I think it's commendable that you haven't bought into this nonsense and propaganda that the organization is pushing, at least not fully. However  you still seem to think that it's the world that's going to do the chewing up and spitting out.  In my experience you are more likely to be emotionally abused and psychologically harmed  in the organization than out of it.  But I suppose that's just a personal opinion and it's subjective.

 you also keep asserting that somehow by leaving the organization you've lost all hope which again is another aspect of the JW propaganda.  

First off I'd like to point out that just because you have a sense of hope for the future doesn't necessarily mean that your beliefs about the afterlife or what comes after death are correct.   Asserting that the emotional cushion that a belief  system provides is proof of its accuracy is fallacious.  I will agree with you that most people when facing death probably have a sense of regret and sadness.  You may personally feel that the comfort that you derive from your belief system is an adequate trade for  A clean conscience  but when I faced death I know for a fact that had I remained in the organization the sense of regret I would feel would be far greater and the sense of wasted time and a wasted life would be crippling.  For someone who knows the truth about the truth there is no comfort that can be derived from remaining a member of the organization. 

35 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

7 hours ago, Albert Michelson said:

and it's also filled with a$$holes just like the organization.

You know, I kind of like this guy. He does not hide what he is. He is not like one who comes in positively oozing love for God and all his witnesses, if only...if only....it does not come out at first....if only they would assassinate those leaders of theirs. I can't stand people like that.

 The way you cut that sentence makes it appear as though I was saying something I wasn't.  Perhaps you just misunderstood or perhaps I didn't punctuate it properly.  The point I was making was not at the organization is filled with assholes.  The point I was trying to make is that both the organization and the world have a mixture of good people and bad people and you're not going to find a uniquely  kind and loving atmosphere in the witnesses( no matter what their propaganda says). You can find the same love, attention and affection anywhere else but without the emotional blackmail and without the extremely conditional love. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Paul, therefore, appears to have knocked out two or three items from the very list that came from the "Governing Body." And I don't think Paul was ever disfellowshipped for this.

So I'm assuming you do believe the Jerusalem Council was a Governing Body and not a one time meeting to address a specific issue.

3 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

You could have had and could still have a wrong impression of what the 'world' is really like.

It doesn't exist. It's a false dichotomy. The world is everyone and guess what, it's full of wonderful people and it's also filled with a$$holes just like the organization. The difference being that I'm no longer constantly being blackmailed and guilted into doing things and believing things that the organization requires. It may not mean much to you but that freedom of mind and of conscience is invaluable to me.

ps this is my last post of the day. 

2 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

he chooses to leave, and his father has no choice,

Compareing a carefully made decision to a  prideful rebellion doesn't really work. The two aren't remotely analogous.