AlanF

36 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Brutus conspired to kill Caesar;  Lenin conspired to bring about a revolution; CIA has conspired to arrange the fall of several other governments; MKULTRA covered up their tracks regarding the torturous secret psychological experiments on unknowing American citizens, Operation Paperclip arranged for Nazi criminals to come to USA secretly, acquire research positions under new names......and perpetuated their crimes on US soil.

All of these 'secret goings on and other conspiracies" in your mind do not exist because people are not sinful and wicked. Conspiracies are not possible - especially if one puts your trust in a human government with censoring capabilities........ Now I wonder who of us (me or you)  is living in "Alice in Wonderland " with "Goldilocks weather conditions" where life springs from nothing and people never sin or do bad things such as "conspiring"?

I've told you several times now,  you ignorant moron: the fact that SOME conspiracies exist does not indicate that YOUR favorite conspiracy theories exist.

36 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Prove that my proof of your disproof of my disproof of your disproof of my proof of your horrendous adhominem is wrong. Then you might have something besides the “heads I win/tails you lose” rules of your mommy world.

That’s what I’M talking about.

You haven't tried any form of proof whatsoever. Lying moron.

3 hours ago, xero said:

As regards reading other material, I have to admit that when I read apologetic works which otherwise seem reasonable and then conclude that all this indicates that Jehovah-Jesus-Holy Spirit are part of a trinity and blah, blah, blah ... It's like nails on a chalkboard. If there's one doctrine that I detest even more than evolution, it's the trinity doctrine.

Reading a book like this is like walking down the road with what appears to be a normal human, sound in mind, and then they strip naked and start barking at cars and chasing cats.

If you're reading something where you KNOW the goal of the writer - namely simply to trash you and your faith as a whole w/o admitting that there are positive elements and results from your beliefs, well it's like picking up a book, opening it up and seeing what looks like a countdown timer and trip wires, you might pitch it fast.

The way I've dealt w/this issue is to always have a pen (never a pencil) and write down my remarks to the author as I read it. We're having a conversation, as it were and I'll have a few things to say along the way.

I agree that the Trinity doctrine is nonsensical. But no more so than much else in the Bible. I mean, really:

The world of humans is messed up because a talking snake convinced a naked woman to eat a piece of fruit?

The earth is a flat, circular disk shaped like a pizza pie and swimming in giant blob of primeval water?

Birds come in the fossil record before any land animals?

Etc. etc. etc.?

Once again: your take on evolution goes like this: "I can't believe everything got here by chance. Therefore the Bible God exists."

But why the Bible God? Why not Brahma? Why not Zeus? Why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

I'll tell you why: you were trained to believe in the Bible God from infancy by your culture.

You fail to realize, along with most other god-botherers, that your emotional condition is irrelevant to the truth of the universe. Facts don't care if you're uncomfortable with them. Facts don't care if your faith is trashed by them.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I am in the world - so I know what is going on.  I am a witness by choice .... living in the real world.  I am no part of the world but this does not mean that I am not on planet earth and conscious...of what is going on..... . lol

Your world is one of conspiracy theories and other sorts of nonsense. Your brain has trained itself to ignore everything outside that nonsensical little world. Much like the way Flat Earthers and your fellow Young-Earth Creationists do.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

what a lie! We do not find good advice or good ideas in any of these other publications.... it is watered down to our tastes.  I read science, philosophy, history and much about current events .....and much more but I still enjoy our bible studies the most!.  It is not a matter of fear  ut a matter of choice!

Whatever you read is filtered by your first seeing if it contradicts Mommy Watchtower's traditions. Example:

I suggested you read one of Richard Dawkins' books. Your response: "I won't read it because he believes in aliens seeding life on earth". Which is a lie.

Any and all excuses to refuse to look at facts.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. They are not simpleminded. You keep asking for “proofs.” Your adhominem is the best proof anyone could ask for that whatever you have does terrible things to a person.

Paul calls this “shipwreck of the faith.” So be it. It is a battle for hearts being waged today. Anyone not repulsed by your adhominem is probably bound to go in your direction anyway. That is why I keep coming back to it. It is the best safeguard possible, in the spirt of “by their fruits you will recognize them.”

Prove that my disproof of your Bible God is wrong. Then you might have something besides simple-minded ad hominems.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

A fool says there is no God...... yet you know well enough that witchcraft truly exists.  So you are aware that Satan exists but refuse to acknowledge jehovah? How stubborn is that. 

There is one thing you cannot deny is that "information" is everywhere in the universe.  The very mathematics you use is a language which conveys information, the DNA -  is the organization of information and the organized  sequence of how the information is used to build  proteins etc. ..... the operating system of humans....and animals...... information is in everything! 

Prove that my disproof of the Bible God is wrong. Then you might have other than complete nonsense to spout.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Please have someone notify me upon your death so I can etch into your grave marker, “He was always right.”

LOL! Simpleminded ad hominems are your only responses.

Don't you know that stubbornness in the face of facts is as the sin of witchcraft?

TrueTomHarley said:

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4 hours ago, AlanF said:
The main flaw in your 'argument' is that neither you nor any other JW defender has been willing or able to disprove any of the debunkings of your favorite doctrines.

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In your own way you are as malignantly obtuse as the other fellow.

LOL! Pure projection.

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The reason I don’t focus on your proofs or debunkings is that they are not important.

The fact that your God doesn't exist is not important?

The fact that the Bible is merely the writings of men is not important?

How totally Orwellian!

The reason you don't focus on my proofs is that you can't debunk them.

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I’m perfectly willing to concede some of them will go your way.

But you never do. If you do, you know that you'll have a hard time remaining a happy, oblivious JW.

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If they do, chalk it up to human imperfection.

Oh, that you're not smart enough to debunk anything?

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If they don’t, they still do not provide the underpinnings of a strong Christian faith.

Precisely my point.

The fact that your God is imaginary provides the underpinnings only of folly and a useless existence, always hoping for but never finding your own Nirvana.

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So you want me to go round and round on things that will not have consequence either way they fall?

I'm merely pointing out facts. What you do with them is your lookout.

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Maybe I don’t have a life, but nowhere near to the extent you don’t have one.

LOL! Clueless as always.

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You live in a make-believe world of Sherlock Holmes.. Life is not like that. The Word says very little about proof. Jesus routinely said and things that would infuriate those of the narrow mindset you have retreated into. He raised straw men. He answered questions with questions. He employed hyperbole. He spun complex parables that he did not explain—let the heart figure it out.

But Jesus did not lie -- unlike you, most JW apologists, and above all -- your masters in New York.

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”Taste and see that Jehovah is good,” says the Psalm.

The Psalm is wrong. As Richard Dawkins wrote in The God Delusion:

<< The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. >>

You know perfectly well that there are plenty of OT passages that prove Dawkins' words right.

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You have tasted and seen that he is bad.

Wrong. He does not exist.

Perhaps a Deistic god exists, but not the Bible God.

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What more is there to say? And yet whatever place your tastebuds have led you obviously does not satisfy, for you repeatedly feel the need to troll in an attempt to sway other Witnesses.

I do not troll. I set forth facts and factual arguments. I get the same satisfaction out of seeing previously deceived people throw off the deceit as anyone does who is concerned about those "skinned and thrown about" by false shepherds.

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When they are not swayed, which is almost always, you resort to the name calling of a child.

Wrong in your usual fashion. I call names and such ONLY when the shoe fits -- when people lie, when they reject facts and arguments without looking at them, and when they persist in rationalizing the lies and bad conduct of their religious leaders.

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At least Witness, and even 4Jah, pieces of work though they may be, at least present as wanting to help.

As I said, I've helped well over a hundred people quit the JW cult. They all thanked me.

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They at least present as having somewhere to lead.

Ah, so giving people false goals is a worthy task, eh? Yet Jesus condemned people like your JW leaders as false prophets fit to be destroyed. 

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They don’t look to the future as you do, proclaim it is rotten, and tell how they look forward to their death before it gets even world 

What I look to in the future is realistic rather than the comfortable but imaginary myths of JWs and similar charlatans.

Most people don't like raw reality. Too bad.

5 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am of the opinion that it is not that we do not want to tell the truth, but that we are afraid of the truth, the truth about ourselves and others. :))

Precisely why the JW Governing Body rages against "apostates" -- critics who tell the truth about "The Truth".

That's why so many individual JWs are afraid to read any material not coming from the Watchtower Society. One way or another they've gotten a taste of valid criticism, understand on some level that it really is valid, realize that if "The Truth" is not the truth they must reject the leadership of those who promulgate false things in God's name, and become afraid to take the consequences. Most JWs have their entire social structure tied up with things Watchtower and don't want to chance losing their friends and families, even at the cost of living with the knowledge that they do not worship "the God of truth". That's another consequence of being steeped in Orwellian thinking.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

People like you take it seriously - we do not.  The Orwellian dystopia is on our doorstep and you are oblivious of it....because  you are looking in the wrong place for it. That is how smart you are!

Cult members never know they're in a cult.

As for your "Orwellian dystopia", that's far from a JW teaching -- you're an apostate.

8 minutes ago, Arauna said:

lol

That's all you can manage because your brain is too mucked up to function properly.

11 minutes ago, xero said:

4Jah...everyone has a different experience. Some positive and some negative. Elders have lots of opinions and so to GB members. I don't have to deal w/everyone's experience - they do. I also don't consider ex-JW's (if that's what they personally label themselves as) 'wicked'. I'm not in any position to judge. I also don't go hunting anyone down to see what they're up to. Sure you make these shepherding calls, but quite frankly, if someone's an adult and they don't want to talk, then I don't push it. Where I am, you'd have just been let be. Everyone has a conscience of their own and the last thing anyone should want to do is to become an obstacle to someone else's faith - either by being presumptuous and attempting to override their conscience, or by creating an "Us vs Them" mentality.

Good thoughts. But they're not shared by JW leadership. They're power-hungry busybodies all too eager to police the lives of their dumb followers.

That's one reason I never wanted a position like elder or servant. I live and let live, even in my mental view of others.

Of course, in forums like this designed for debate, expressing dissent is par for the course. It's a false cry of "foul" when those criticized complain.

4 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

There is so much in this little piece. Lets dissect it.

They haven't made the truth their own Which truth do you mean? The JW truth changes from year to year.  'New light' it pretend to be, but in honesty it is failed predictions.

Instead they either abdicate their free will to an organization But this is what the GB demand. The GB demand complete obedience through the Elder 'police'. 

or they blame an organization for their having left.  Now this is interesting. According to an Elder I know, no one leaves, they are all disfellowshipped.  BUT, for my part I will blame my Christian conscience as the reason I left the Org.  Although I left because of the immorality and dishonesty in the JW Org. 

"each one must carry his own load"  Yes indeed, but I didn't expect an Elder to phone my wife and tell her I had been disfellowshipped, when that Elder knew I had left of my own choice and he knew the reasons too. 

Unfortunately many of you JWs pretend that all 'ex-JWs' are wicked people that 'go back into the wicked world' . Sorry but I find it so funny that you people have to do that. You seem so insecure and need to reassure yourself by pretending that every one 'outside' is wicked.  JUST look at the paragraph I've quoted and see how many accusations there are against ex-JWs.  My first three highlights make it easy for you. You are taught to blame the ex Witness, never to blame the JW Org or the GB. 

Excellent comments! To which I will add:

To the typical JW "truth" has a meaning different from what everyone else understands. To a JW it means "whatever is current in Watchtower teaching". Thus yesterday the "faithful slave" was the entire earthwide body of "anointed ones", but today it's the "Governing Body". Yesterday it was "the truth" that "the saints" were resurrected to heaven in 1881, while today that teaching is considered apostasy.

The JW baptismal vows, adopted around 1985, contain a legally binding promise for the baptized person to believe and obey all things designated "current teaching" by the various Watchtower corporations. Thus there is no unique "truth" since those teachings can change and do change with the winds of current events.

Most JWs are well aware that if Watchtower leaders decided that the Trinity is "current teaching", they would go along with it. ANY teaching is up for grabs in the JW world.

Once a new teaching is adopted, the JW community forgets the old and mostly forgets that the old ever existed. Hence the phrase "the Orwellian world of Jehovah's Witnesses".

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

If you think calling people 'a moron' and other names is an act of presenting a logical fact, then you belong to the common designation -  wackedemia. 

You deliberately ignore the fact that I call morons morons ONLY after I present facts that they reject out of hand. You are a prime example.

4 hours ago, xero said:

If people would just say what they really thought, it would be different in a lot of cases.

Such hypocrisy! When critics like me do that, snowflakes like you scream Persecution!

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone uses the word Orwellian today, it is the new insult.

It is the same as how verbal pugilists, upon failing to convince the other side, describe ones on that side as “arrogant.”

It is the same as how “cognitive dissonance” has become the new phrase of insult, as in, “Your cognitive dissonance must be massive to withstand the force of MY overpowering arguments.”

Blow it all off. It is just blowhards blowing hard, as they have always done.

On average, the people of this system of things are smarter than those of Jehovah’s Witnesses, better educated. Yet that advantages is squandered by their inability to get along, to yield, to work together for common good. Witnesses run rings around them in the practical deeds of their choosing, thus triggering taunts of Orwellian, arrogance, and cognitive dissonance. 

The main flaw in your 'argument' is that neither you nor any other JW defender has been willing or able to disprove any of the debunkings of your favorite doctrines that I and other JW critics have published. This thread is a good example.

Can you prove that your Bible God exists? No.

Can you disprove that "God is love" and "God is a monster" are BOTH true statements? No.

Can you present arguments that The Argument From Ignorance is proof that the Bible God exists, and is not some other Creator god like, say, the Hindu Brahma? No.

Can you prove the Bible is inspired by an omniscient God when it so clearly describes the earth as a flat, circular disk topped by a solid metal-shield-like expanse, all surrounded by an "ocean" of primeval waters? No.

Is the Bible really inspired by The Omniscient Creator when it has the order of creation of birds and land animals backwards? No.

You might just as well believe the moon is made of cheddar cheese if the Bible said so.

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Soon you will know what true Orwelian dystopia is - you who put your faith in human science, human philisophy and human governments. 

You use the word Orwelian lightly- without understanding what you are saying - you do not "know" all , even if you think you do.. You evaluate what we teach in a fleshly and materialistic / evolutionary way .......I can only feel sorry for you. 

Ssuuuuurrrre! Just as Russell warned about 1914, Rutherford warned about 1925, Franz warned about 1975, the Society and many JWs warned about 2000 and are now doing so via Real Soon Now.

JW critics have compared the Watchtower organization to Orwell's Utopia in Nineteen Eighty-Four for decades. For example, The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses (Heather and Gary Botting, Heritage, 1984) did so 37 years ago. I did so in the early 1990s (https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/thinking-ability-and-watchtower.html https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/orwell-revisited.html). So have many other JW critics.

As usual you have no idea what you're talking about.

3 hours ago, xero said:

I think a lot of people who have left and a lot who have stayed have a lot in common. They haven't made the truth their own. Instead they either abdicate their free will to an organization or they blame an organization for their having left. In either case if the shoe fits is that "each one must carry his own load". Now you can't look at someone and know what box they fit into, but obsessive focus on the organization and the GB is, of course a clue. Supposedly we're supposed to be intently looking at and studying the perfecter of our faith - Jesus.

Elders aren't magical wise men, neither are members of any governing body. You can of course cherry pick and create whatever movie you want to play in your own head as the manner of your life and whether you're happy with it or not - still it's your own bed - you made it, you continue to make it and you must lie down in it.

Happy people will be happy, and unhappy people will be unhappy. As soon as people "stop kicking against the goads" and know that they are solely responsible for their own choices and the consequences which flow from these, they can begin really living. (as much as living can be living in this particular rendition)

You've committed another fallacy: allowing only two possibilities when many exist.

The Watchtower Society teaches many false things in God's name. Doing so makes the responsible ones in it false prophets. The Bible itself tells people to pay no attention to false prophets. 

And of course, the more fundamental problem is that the Bible God does not exist. Therefore anyone who claims to speak in his name is at best a charlatan. People don't like to be suckers.

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Wow, I didn't realize that you believe your Watchtower / JW Org / GB to be so Evil. 

The leadership of the Watchtower has for many years taken away the free will of it's congregants. 

One obvious way was the deliberate misuse of the Superior Authorities scripture, so that congregants had to obey the Org or be 'removed'.  

This is a quote from you xero from another topic. 

You know, that the core beliefs of JW's don't differ significantly from the bulk of other nontrinitarian religions except in ways which, quite frankly are conscience matters. This is a big issue in my world. Too many brothers want to override or supplant the consciences of others. If there is a defect, that would be it -

And again evil shuns free will.

Point proven.  Hence just one more reason I'm glad I left the JW / Watchtower dishonest, immoral, Organisation. 

I actually think it is your Org that has shunned this :-

 "I am the way, the truth, the life - no one comes to the father except through me" Jesus said,

What have your Leaders done ?  Refused to baptise people properly. Not using the scripture which says to baptise "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy spirit"

But telling people that have to be baptised into the JW org. Telling people that they have to be a baptised JW 'to be saved' at Armageddon. 

Indeed. Few organizations have more of the Orwellian spirit than the Watchtower religion.

7 hours ago, xero said:

I had a study years ago with this jewish astrophysicist. It was interesting, but one interesting observation he made (he did become a brother) was that evil is predictable because evil shuns free will. The more evil, the more predictable. Also from other writings I've read (C. S. Lewis) evil is also parasitic. It doesn't create, but owes its existence to parasitism. An evil person (who am I to judge), but and evil act is the business of getting at "the good" the wrong way. Atheists want what faith provides, but can't have it because it requires a specific path - one they've shunned. "I am the way, the truth, the life - no one comes to the father except through me" Jesus said, and all the truly good things require obedience to and recognition of Jehovah and his rules, laws, purposes. He's teaching us to benefit who? Us all.

Self-serving pop psychology with a large helping of brainless religiosity.

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This helped me to see the source of Alan’s enmity towards me. It is pure envy.

LOL! Like I envy Benito Trumpolini.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

If name-calling is proof then you are really good at proving  it! 

Yes, you call presenting facts "name calling". That's stupid even for a JW apologist and Young-Earth Creationist.

18 hours ago, Anna said:

Sorry, I missed that...

Here's the latest of many: 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

both philosophies originate from the same source - a denial of god - satan

The Bible God and his complement do not exist -- I've proved it. And you JW apologists can't touch my proof.