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AlanF

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  1. Downvote
    AlanF got a reaction from Leander H. McNelly in 607 B.C.E - Is there any SECULAR support for the Watch Tower's view?   
    No, there is no secular support for the Watch Tower's view that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE.
    There exists some secular information against modern secular historical consensus, as compiled by Watch Tower supporters, but none of this supports the 607 view.
    And of course, JW critics have published extensive material, online and in books and articles, that shows why the WTS's criticisms of solid secular history are invalid.
    AlanF
  2. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Leo K. Greenlees   
    TrueTomHarley said:
    I think you're so blinded by your Watchtower blinders that you don't see your comments for what they are -- abhorrent to anyone with moral decency. Note this one:
    << And sometimes you wish that there was more differerentiation in “molestation.” At present, anything from a hand on the inner thigh or rear end to outright rape is described (and sometimes deliberately confused) as “molestation.” None of those actions are great, of course, but there is a substantial difference between them. >>
    As Anna explained, in principle there is no difference between "a hand on the inner thigh or rear end" and outright rape. All are violations of law, and of New Testament principles for sexual misconduct, and all are forms of molestation -- despite your protests to the contrary. The 'minor' violations, if not checked, inevitably lead to major violations.
    Your obvious attempt to minimize some forms of molestation is saying exactly, "Molestation is no big deal!"
    That's exactly what JW leaders have always done, and continue to do, and is why they're in such trouble with the Law and molestation victims.
    I think you need to go back to square one on what constitutes morality.
    Coming from someone with a demonstrably defective moral sense and little critical thinking ability, that's rich!
  3. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Leo K. Greenlees   
    Anna said:
    Very good! But the Watchtower Society claims that Greenlees, other GB members and all elders are appointed by God, thus contradicting the fact that Greenlees was not. If Greenlees was not, then the rest were not either.
    This is simple logic. Why do you refuse to accept it?
    The point is that the mere claim that one is following the directions in the Bible in no way means that one is actually following those directions.
    The proof is in the pudding, and the JW organization's 'pudding' proves that it often does not follow the directions. Hence it is not what it claims: God's earthly representative.
    Deliberately missing the point again.
    The point is that, despite the Pope's and many other leaders of 'Christendom's' claims to be appointed to their positions by God, and to speak for God, you and all other JWs reject those claims. Why? Because according to your beliefs, despite their claims, they are not doing God's will according to the Bible.
    Once again the point here is that old Tom, Dick and Harry can claim to be doing God's will, but that claim in no way means that they are actually doing God's will. Their actions prove or disprove it.
  4. Upvote
  5. Upvote
    AlanF reacted to 4Jah2me in Leo K. Greenlees   
    @b4ucuhear  Quote " I agree with you on that, since I know a number of brothers who have been disciplined for child molestation in various congregations.  All of them have been faithful brothers for many years now without incident.  But a potential problem with that type of weakness is the rate of recidivism that can accompany that type of behaviour.  Naturally, there are some very thorny legal issues associated with appointing a person with such a history and whether he would even potentially offend again."
    I wonder if those brothers are in the 20 year long DATABASE that the GB are refusing to hand over to the authorities. 
    If you KNOW A NUMBER OF BROTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN DISCIPLINED FOR CHILD MOLESTATION,  then shouldn't you go to the Police or authorities with your information as @Anna likes to tell people to do. After all if they 'have been disciplined for it', then they must have done it. 
    The plot thickens. And @TrueTomHarley says not many JW's do it. 
    Child Sexual Abuse and Homosexuality, and still trying to pretend that the JW Org is clean. 
    Remember Jesus saying 'First clean the inside of the dish, then the outside will also be clean'. 
  6. Downvote
    AlanF reacted to TrueTomHarley in Leo K. Greenlees   
    The reason that you have been likened to Butler is that he had the same wont for overstatement, the same near hysteria on the topic, the same resilience to any mitigating factors, the same shrillness at any comparison of JWs to “the world.”
    In his case, he was subjected to horrendous child sexual abuse by the British orphanage system. Yet he never (here) spoke a word against them—he took all of his rage out on Jehovah’s Witnesses that he joined much later, persons having nothing to do with his history.
    He has said or indicated nothing of the sort. This is completely your emotional take. 
    This is yet another example of the Master of Rationality completely throwing that quality out the windows in pursuit of his ends.
    The trouble with critical thinking is that those who espouse it the loudest invariably assume that they have a lock on the stuff.
  7. Upvote
    AlanF reacted to 4Jah2me in Leo K. Greenlees   
    Quote @Anna Nor do I think that's the attitude of JW  leaders.
    So what exactly is the attitude of the GB and it's lawyers for not handing over the complete 20 plus years of Database concerning Child Sexual Abuse accusations ?  After all shouldn't they 'obey God as ruler rather than men' and wouldn't God want His name cleared ?  Wouldn't God want justice for the victims? So it would not matter about what laws of men were in place. 
    What is the attitude of the Australian Bethel brothers for not apologising to victims ?  The Australian government apologised and people of different religions agreed with the apology, but not the JW Org. 
    What was the attitude of the UK Bethel brothers / solicitors when they refused to hand over the information to the Charity Commission ? Even though later they had to hand the info' over.
    What did Jesus say ' If you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles'.
    Why can't your GB actually take note of what Jesus was teaching here ? 
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Separate Comment :- 
    @TrueTomHarley   Quote " The reason that you have been likened to Butler is that he had the same wont for overstatement,... "
    Oh come on then, show me my overstatement word for word.  Just as John Butler did I try to write the truth as I know it. Unfortunately he got disfellowshipped for it here. 
     
  8. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Leo K. Greenlees   
    Look beneath the surface, Anna.
    Your last post was excellent and well describes the attitude shown by TTH and so many elders, including and especially the Governing Body. "We abhor child molestation! But not as much as we abhor public exposure of anything that makes us look bad."
  9. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from 4Jah2me in Leo K. Greenlees   
    It's exactly the attitude TTH displays here -- "Oh, molestation is no big deal!" -- that has gotten JW leaders in deep doo doo, and is the source of the extreme disgust about them shown by so many people.
  10. Like
    AlanF got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Jehovahs witnesses and higher education   
    It can't get any clearer: "LIsten to Jehovah's voice!" is a direct claim to inspiration by the Governing Body.
  11. Upvote
  12. Upvote
    AlanF reacted to Srecko Sostar in Are Jehovah’s Witnesses “Too Dogmatic”?   
    :))))
    I like this description. Can we make agreement how Truth is not Dogmatic. Because Dogmatism of any sort has no chance to be Truthful at all. 
    If we have religious men (GB in this conversation) who giving direction to members we learned this from them: 
    They decide to say how they are not inspired. They explained how because that particular reason (not been inspired) they err in doctrines and teachings and instructions. 
    How sounds this to you? It sounds very nice. These are definitions that no one would named as Dogmatic. You agree? I also agree. But what is reality? GB have mechanisms to implement all uninspired, err and wrong doctrines, teachings and instructions in life of congregants and to successfully hold them (members) in obedience, not to Truth, but to Dogma. Because many GB doctrines, teachings and instructions based on False Ideas are Dogmas not Truth. That means how Dogmas in form of Religious beliefs are dogmatic itself (Dogmas are not Doctrines or Teachings, because we aspect this last two to be truth), and people who pushing Dogmas on other are Dogmatists. 
    As we see, when GB talking about self as people who can err, sounds as very reasonable people. But still, despite that, they want you to obey their dogmatic ideas.
    No, i would not go to such level of comparison. Many of us here agreed with statement how Jesus taught Truth only. Because of that he didn't need to be dogmatic. He left to people choice to choose will they accept or reject his teachings. Authority from God, you mentioned, not give him right nor he want to used such authority to demand from people, not even from those who followed him, to blindly follow and obey him. And because of this reason we don't consider him to be dogmatic. He didn't spread dogmas. But his followers did and doing that today.
    All areas in Jesus' teachings i don't put on two or more levels. As we would need to see some of teachings to be more and other as less important. Do we have some examples from which we can conclude how he considered meetings as more important than preaching or vice versa? Or, to give money in temple box to be more important than helping needing one (brother or not brother) with that same money? If you know Bible text who give more light on this it will be good to read. 
    What is more important for Christian to do today? Going to Betel service or to preach? If preaching Kingdom is of ultimate importance for JW members you don't need Betel buildings. So redirect all money to preaching and if you need building for some reasons, make it smaller and less expensive and employ 10 people not 400. Just illustration. :)))  
    In what areas Jesus give you freedom and in what he is demanding?
    In what areas GB give you freedom and in what they are demanding? 
    Try to make comparative list! :))  
    I am interested to see result you or any other will have.
    I guess how this is not sin against HS, but just opinion ..... about fact how people's spirit are stronger ... sometimes.
  13. Haha
  14. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from 4Jah2me in All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents   
    Anna said:
    It's gross deception. Why? Because it deliberately gives a completely false picture of what the Bible Students said.
    That's like saying the Nazi's tried hard not to be dogmatic about Nazism, but didn't always succeed.
    Tell me if the statements quoted below about 1918 and 1920 are dogmatic or not.
    The Finished Mystery, 1917, pages 62, 64, said with great authority:
    <<
    The data presented in comments on Rev. 1:1... prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.
    The awakening of the sleeping saints, A.D. 1878, was just half way (three and one-half years each way) between the beginning of the Times of Restitution in 1874 and the close of the High Calling in 1881. Our proposition is that the glorification of the Little Flock in the Spring of 1918 A.D. will be half way (three and one-half years each way) between the close of the Gentile Times and the close of the Heavenly Way, A.D. 1921.
    >>
    These predictions failed. More forceful language was used in the predictions of a terrible destruction due to come on Christendom's churches and their members in 1918, with their dead bodies strewn about unburied. Pages 484-485 said:
    << Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity." >>
    Page 513 said:
    << In the year 1918, when Christendom shall go down as a system to oblivion.... God will cause the nations to shake with gigantic revolutions. >>
    The book also predicted stupendous events for 1920. On page 258 it said:
    <<
    Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920...
    Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy...
    The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy.
    >>
    On page 542 it said:
    << As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom's after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, "even all of it." Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all-embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. >>
    How about the following statements about 1925? Were they dogmatic or not?
    The book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920 Edition, said on pages 89-90:
    << . . . we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old . . . >>
    The May 15, 1922 Watch Tower said:
    <<
    We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925.
    It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need?
    Using this same measuring line... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.
    >>
    I could go on with this for a long time, but here's the link on this that I already gave you:
    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Not dogmatic? Please!
    The split is more like 90-10 when it came to anything to do with the Gentile Times stuff the Proclaimers book was discussing.
    Believe what you like. Quotes like the above say different.
    Time to go beddie-bye.
  15. Upvote
    AlanF reacted to Anna in Leo K. Greenlees   
    I know what you're saying, it's just that a hand on the inner thigh or rear end, if done deliberately, is usually just the beginning, and is like a test leading to other stages. Maybe the degree of molestation should be categorized in stages? Stage one: hand on inner thigh and buttocks, stage two: ........and so on.
    The thing is, if the molester gets away with stage one (no one reports it, or the victim doesn't stop it) then you know for sure it will lead to stage two, and if that's not reported to stage three etc. So in my opinion, at least, it doesn't matter at what stage the molester gets caught or reported, because really it's about the potential, or goal of the molester, the actual "gravity" of the act is merely contingent on carrying on until he gets stopped. 
    I consider my uncle (non JW) as molesting me when I was 13. I was wearing a t-shirt with some logo on it across my chest. He took his finger and begun tracing the writing and then at the end he tweeked my nipple. It all happened so unexpectedly that I didn't even think of moving. At the end of it I knew it had been deliberate because of the nipple thing. However, I nipped that one in the bud (no pun intended) by going straight to my mum  reporting what had happened. My mum went straight to my aunt, and my aunt went straight to my uncle. Needless to say, that was the last time he touched me. I hate to think what could have happened had I not said anything....
  16. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from 4Jah2me in All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents   
    Anna said:
    The Society made direct statements as well as more subtle suggestions. Take a gander:
    << How thrilling that must have been for Paul and Barnabas-sailing to their first foreign assignment! The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our century. >> January 1, 1989 Watchtower, p. 12
    Note that "in our century" was changed to "in our day" in the bound volume and in the CDROM Library.
    Note that when the following statements were made, the Society was teaching that "the generation of 1914" meant the group of people alive in 1914 who survived until "the end".
    << Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom. >> -- "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah"-How? - 1971
    << And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end. >> -- October 15, 1980 Watchtower, p. 31
    << It has been thrilling to see the fulfillment of Jesus’ sign showing that the Kingdom was established in the heavens in that momentous year 1914. And Jesus has told us to rejoice at seeing the dark storm clouds of Armageddon gathering since that time. He has told us that the “generation” of 1914—the year that the sign began to be fulfilled—”will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Some of that “generation” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! >> -- March 1, 1984 Watchtower, pp. 18-19
    << The Time for a Change Is Near!
    Carole, from France, has a “marvelous hope” and foresees, for the near future, “something marvelous—not at all like the world we live in.” Samuel, a 15-year-old youth from the same country, also believes in a complete change: “For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don’t think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day. . . We are living in the last days of the system of things.” Ruth, a German girl of 16, also expresses her confidence in these changes: “I know I’m not smart enough to change the world and make things run right. Only Jehovah, our Creator, can and will do that soon.” >> November 8, 1986 Awake!, pp. 7-8
     
  17. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Are Jehovah’s Witnesses “Too Dogmatic”?   
    Kind of like "he endeavored to avoid being dead". But he didn't always succeed.
    You are what you are until you're not.
  18. Like
  19. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents   
    Anna said:
    It's gross deception. Why? Because it deliberately gives a completely false picture of what the Bible Students said.
    That's like saying the Nazi's tried hard not to be dogmatic about Nazism, but didn't always succeed.
    Tell me if the statements quoted below about 1918 and 1920 are dogmatic or not.
    The Finished Mystery, 1917, pages 62, 64, said with great authority:
    <<
    The data presented in comments on Rev. 1:1... prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.
    The awakening of the sleeping saints, A.D. 1878, was just half way (three and one-half years each way) between the beginning of the Times of Restitution in 1874 and the close of the High Calling in 1881. Our proposition is that the glorification of the Little Flock in the Spring of 1918 A.D. will be half way (three and one-half years each way) between the close of the Gentile Times and the close of the Heavenly Way, A.D. 1921.
    >>
    These predictions failed. More forceful language was used in the predictions of a terrible destruction due to come on Christendom's churches and their members in 1918, with their dead bodies strewn about unburied. Pages 484-485 said:
    << Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity." >>
    Page 513 said:
    << In the year 1918, when Christendom shall go down as a system to oblivion.... God will cause the nations to shake with gigantic revolutions. >>
    The book also predicted stupendous events for 1920. On page 258 it said:
    <<
    Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920...
    Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy...
    The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy.
    >>
    On page 542 it said:
    << As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom's after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, "even all of it." Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all-embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. >>
    How about the following statements about 1925? Were they dogmatic or not?
    The book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920 Edition, said on pages 89-90:
    << . . . we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old . . . >>
    The May 15, 1922 Watch Tower said:
    <<
    We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925.
    It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need?
    Using this same measuring line... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.
    >>
    I could go on with this for a long time, but here's the link on this that I already gave you:
    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Not dogmatic? Please!
    The split is more like 90-10 when it came to anything to do with the Gentile Times stuff the Proclaimers book was discussing.
    Believe what you like. Quotes like the above say different.
    Time to go beddie-bye.
  20. Thanks
    AlanF got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and the length of time humans have been on planet earth   
    Yes, JWs exercising Orwellian crimestop do get bored with topics that clobber their beliefs. My ex-wife did the same thing.
    As for this discovery, I saw the same show but was not entirely convinced that they had the dating right. Recent discoveries in northwest Africa strongly indicate the presence of Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago, and it is well known that today's Sahara desert has alternated between wet and dry periods for several million years. Archaeological discoveries in Egypt, Libya, etc. clearly show modern human habitation from more than 50,000 years ago. So who knows how the Emirates discovery will pan out?
  21. Upvote
    AlanF got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in Creationism   
    God temporarily gave them permission to fly.
  22. Downvote
    AlanF got a reaction from John Butler-2 in Leo K. Greenlees   
    Anna said:
    I think you're very confused about this. Who would have known? Who would have thought him cured? When?
    True, but that again assumes that those elders knew of the pedophile. Greenlees was not known to anyone but his victims, and perhaps unknown accomplices.
    The psychiatric community and pretty much everyone dealing with children. And God.
    Note this: "Pedophilia was first formally recognized and named in the late 19th century." --
    Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Apparent the holy spirit did not get the message.
          Ok.
    Come on! We all know (at least, non-trinitarians do) that the Bible's use of "holy spirit" is just a metaphor for God's power, or better, just God. So saying that "holy spirit did this and that" means "God did this and that".
    So are you claiming that God did not know about pedophilia, or that Greenlees was a homosexual pedophile?
         
    In the sense that, put plainly, "God was not deceived".
    Nope. Most Christians claim to follow the directions in the Bible, and you certainly don't accept that God directs them, metaphorically or directly.
    Once again, by that reasoning the Pope has been appointed by God.
  23. Downvote
    AlanF got a reaction from John Paul ll in All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents   
    TrueTomHarley said:
    Yet another dishonest sidestep, a clumsy red herring. Let's examine the relevant parts of the exchange, shall we?
    TTH: This is AlanF’s taunt, Witness. He has said it innumerable times and now Arauna has adopted it once or twice in her replies.
    Now, exactly what in your statement is "a very old expression, seldom heard anymore"? Plain old English?
    After that I wrote:
    <<<<
    The May 1, 1957 Watchtower said (p.274):
    << If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother. >>
    This makes for a truly excellent taunt because the idea expressed is so cultish.
    TrueTomHarley's comment that this is my taunt is true in the sense that I often use it to taunt braindead JWs, but I've used the quote several times in this thread and many times in old threads. TTH's failure to reveal what he clearly knows is the source is, as usual, thoroughly dishonest.
    >>>>
    So, TTH, exactly where in your latest post did you respond rationally to what I actually said? Obviously you did not; hence your red herring response.
    LOL! One of the JW organization's many myths its leaders promulgate.
    There are so many disproofs of this myth it's hard to count them.
  24. Downvote
    AlanF got a reaction from John Paul ll in All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents   
    James Thomas Rook Jr said:
    You seem to forget that when I use "hate and vitriol" it's always in the spirit of returning like for like.
    You know very well that I've never been 'nasty' or you or to Anna or certain other posters. Do you know why?
    On the other hand, TrueTomHarley and Arauna scream bloody murder when I give them back what they first gave me. Do you have different standards for me and them?
    If you actually wade through my responses to Arauna, you'll not only learn much, but you'll see her lies -- which I don't hesitate to point out -- her misrepresentations, her sidestepping and her hypocrisy. Same for TTH, to the extent that I bother with his overt nonsense any more.
    It seems to me that you expect me, an atheist, to be a better Christian than these clowns.
  25. Downvote
    AlanF got a reaction from John Paul ll in All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents   
    The Librarian said to James Thomas Rook:
    You might look into the BB software that runs on this board:

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