JOHN BUTLER

I think it's pretty simple really. He's saying that it makes no difference what the president does, it should not affect the JW / GB decision. Unless you are going by 'traditions of men' of course .

This had become a kind of cliche for experiences given from the assemblies. You would always hear someone say that they were learning about the truth, but that they had a beard and didn't like to dress in a suit and tie . . . and then . . . voila! . . . one day this person will show up at the Hall, and to everyone's surprise . . . he will be clean-shaven. The audience would even clap at this point, as if it were a bigger turning point than their baptism. Wow brainwashing at its best. Um, Jesus said about cleaning the inside of the bowl or dish first. Shaving and putting on a suit and tie mean nothing, it just impresses naive people. It matter not if a person wears and open neck shirt and casual smart trousers. And it matters not if a man has a beard. And in fact it matters not if a lady wears trousers designed for ladies, because they are not men's clothing. Lots of ladies here in UK congregations now wear leggings under dresses in fact. But in the JW Org its all about dictatorship. It's not about showing God, as God sees into your heart. It's all about pleasing the Elders and the higher ups..

I wonder if that is a racist comment Every person on this earth is different. Defining people by their country of origin is not good. I'm way out and wild man.

@TrueTomHarley They could always do it, but they might come in for counsel and be kept from what Witnesses call “privileges”—MS, elder, pioneer, and so forth. OK, let's look at this one sentence which Tom seems to think is casually funny. Let's start with the problem of Elders withholding 'privileges' due to their personal preferences. This is not in order of importance. 1. It is not showing Christian love. 2. it is going beyond the things written, as there is NO scriptural basis for it. . 3. It is a cause for stumbling. 4. It would be restricting the Preaching of the Good News for No good reason. 5. It would be taking over the conscience of another person, dictating to them though for no good reason. 6. It would be ignoring scripture, such as the one about the straw and the rafter. And the oneat Luke 17 v 1&2 Now you may say that the Edler is acting on instructions from higher up, in which case it becomes more serious because those higher up should be more spiritually mature and able to see things with a good Christian attitude and conscience.

Regarding tobacco : God's kingdom Rules Page 111 para 12 & 13 And Smoking banned in 1973 Regarding christmas : God's Kingdom Rules page 101 para 8 & page 102 para 9 @Anna i hope this is to your satisfaction.

Ok be picky if you like. They allowed smoking until 1970. Well 1973 actually it seems.

@TrueTomHarley The only reason you think of me as being unhinged is so that it makes you feel easier about my comments. To use the excuse that you think someone has a mental problem, just because they tell the truth and you don't like it, well that's pretty poor Tom. But if it makes your life easier then ok go for it. JW Insider. Now is he still a JW ? I think so. Hence if he brings up a situation he does not want it to look too serious for the JW Org. 'that he regards is quite rare' does not mean it actually is 'quite rare' it just means that is his opinion. PUT NOT YOUR TRUST IN EARTHLING MAN. As for the CSA thing. In my opinion it is easier for me to relate to such things that others have suffered as i have suffered similar things. It's not about me Tom, it's about ALL THOSE THAT HAVE SUFFERED CSA AND OTHER ABUSES IN THE JW ORG.. But as I've said before most people just see it as collateral damage... The comments i see as funny are funny to me. The reason most are funny is because they are only a person's opinion, and in most cases are nowhere near true. So you see i have a sense of humour. i don't always moan about comments i laugh at some. As for Srecko, i think he does fantastically well with his English as it is not his first language. And maybe he has a similar sense of humour to me. I have a comment on my FB page somewhere and it says 'The first thing you have to know about me is that i am not you'. Do you get the sense of that comment Tom ? Stop judging me because i am not you. I do not think like you, act like you or even want to be like you Tom.

In the Armed forces in UK and USA there are rules WRITTEN DOWN for soldiers to follow strictly. Yet it has been proved that in many cases those soldiers did not follow the rules. It is also the same in the JW Org. However in the JW Org, it would seem as if the elders are told not to follow the rules that are written down. The GB believe they have the right to tell lies and they call it spiritual warfare. So what is the point of them writing down rules which they know they will deliberately break. The point is, for people like BtK and Space Merchant to point to the written rules and say 'Look i told you so'. How blind are those people ? Anyone can write rules, but it does not mean anyone will live by them.

@Anna Quote "it was not what the elders said, but it was what the Bible said." Yes love that. But it has never said in the Bible that men have to wear a suit and tie. Imagine Jesus getting to the sea shore and saying to those fishermen ' Guys I would have let you be my followers but you are not wearing a suit and tie' And back with the beards thing too. ' You guys have beards, you cannot follow me and preach'. . And I'm sure there are a few more such things. I was even told by an old brother, an Elder in fact, that years before paisley ties were forbidden. In my last congregation if an Elder 'told me off' for anything, i would say show me three scriptures to back up what you are saying. It came from the idea that the Org use to teach repetition for emphasis... Quote, The funny thing is, they blame the org.. Maybe it's because Elders make the worst parents sometimes. (even involved in CSA) And other Elders will not take notice of a child if said child is the child of an Elder. So the child cannot get help from anyone. By the way, I'm glad you had a good childhood. Mine was horrible, with a wicked mother committing adultery and her 'boyfriend' nearly drowning my dad in the family pond. My dad suffered with TB (and had one of his lungs collapsed so my brother tells me). Then the children's home episode. Dad died aged 49 when i was around 20. So of course my outlook is 'slightly' different to yours.

Yes probably. In the same book that said they knew Christmas was wrong but kept on celebrating it at Bethal until 1926 ish.

Luke 17 v 1&2.

Yes and to think they let congregants smoke tobacco into the 1970's without a problem, even though they knew it was totally wrong in the late 1800's. But no beards, just to prove they were the boss. It's called dictatorship, nothing else. to quote TTH " Though nowhere forbidden by scripture or Bible principles, no "rule" was applied with more vigor than the "no beard" rule, " Dictatorship Tom. Domineering at it's best.

BTK says "God would have no problem “rebuking” the Watchtower just as Jesus rebuked those in conflict with God’s commandants." Now maybe God or Christ is punishing your GB / JW Org / Wt because of the CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE being allowed to go on and be kept hidden in those places. And maybe God or christ is punishing your GB / JW Org / Wt because the GB are misusing scripture by pretending to be the Faithful and discreet slave, and for exalting themselves above those of the Anointed Earthwide. For sure your GB and both Orgs have brought God's name into shame and disrepute by the Child Sexual Abuse situation EARTHWIDE in the Orgs. JW Lawyers have proved to be liars and totally dishonest and without love or feeling for victims, so I'm sure that is totally against God, Christ and scripture. How anyone can dare to condemn me but at the same time give praise to the GB and those two Orgs, it makes me laugh..

@Anna Quote "In any case, the mind boggles as to why a teenager would prefer living on the streets and sofa surfing to living at home abiding by a few rules until they are able to leave home and fend for themselves properly." Answer : Because that is the real world. If you had a good childhood then you probs will not understand, but if you had a very strict JW upbringing then you might. A lot of teenagers do not want to go to the meetings and do not want to do the door to door ministry. They want to have fun. If they are at school five days a week being bullied by both teachers and other pupils, then they want to blow off steam at the weekends, not be bullied by domineering JW parents. And if they are at work 5 days a week, then likewise. When our son left school we gave him two years 'freedom'. We didn't pester him to find a job to pay us money, we didn't even tell him what time to get out of bed in the morning. The reason was he was so badly bullied at senior school that he was almost a total wreck. The bullying was caught on security camera one time and the police were called in. The bully boys were suspended from school for a while but nothing else happened and when they returned it started again. So we gave our son two years to recover from it all. It worked, he gradually opened up to us more and found new friends He's fine now. But a lot of JW parents, ones that we know well, are not so loving or understanding to their children. Some JW parents are 'Elders and wifes'. That is even worse for the children as those children are expected to be 'extra special' good little JW's. Like I keep telling you lot, but you don't want to believe it, I've known the JW Org / Watchtower Soc since I was around 20 or younger, and I'm 70 this October. So 50 years of it all. In different congregations, in different towns/cities. So what i say I say from first hand experience, not just read in JW literature or seen on JW videos or on 'apostate' websites... And I'm a total individual, with my own thoughts, which seems to frighten TTH and others, as they always pretend I'm part of a group of something or other.

Well @TrueTomHarley & @Anna are both in 'M.J's Neverland Ranch USA. Living on something strange and must be totally high. Why ? Because they have NO IDEA of the realities of life. Either that or they are both hiding in some JW Cave and being told exactly what to say and when to say it. They are like twin puppets, copying each other's words. It's written in JW 1991 W/t so it must be so. How blind are you Tom ? Wasn't there a court case recently where a JW Lawyer told complete lies about that very situation. @Anna I don't know if you are a 20 year old or a 60 year old but I do have a feeling you do not have much experience of real life in the real world. Have you always been hidden in the JW Org, kept behind that fence, not allowed to do any research or even to go out and see real life for yourself ? 'It's like a jungle out there, sometimes i wonder how i keep from going under.' (Just a bit of rap or hip hop, but oh so true) By the way I know that my brother TOLD HIS YOUNGEST DAUGHTER TO GET OUT. And i know she lived on the streets for a while. Then she went what's known as sofa surfing, staying at different friends houses, sleeping on their sofa. One problem is that children get baptised very young and then regret it. When they then get to teenage years they don't want to follow through on serving the JW Org so they turn against it. Then parents throw them out. That is the real world. Oh yes and TTH back on the mentally unwell thing again, calling me 'unhinged'. That really is a JW problem now, that JW's have been brainwashed into using this 'mentally unwell' insult to people that refuse to bow down to the GB and its JW Org. It all started with the GB saying that some people that say they are anointed are mentally unwell. Now it has become a key phrase of JW's toward anyone that happens to disagree with the GB and it's Org. That really does prove brainwashing or puppet fashion of JW's.