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Everything posted by JOHN BUTLER

  1. OK, not really a topic, but I'm confused J W's Open Club ? this one that I've just joined. What happened to the other JW club ? Do you know I cannot even remember what it was called. Was it JW's Private club ? Any way did i miss something happening and if so what, when and why ??? Thanks.

    Open Club, Private Club, JW club

    It's never irrelevant Tom, the truth is you find it a thorn in your side as do all JW's. I don't hate, well I try not to hate anyone, but I do hate the 'goings on' in the JW Org, the hidden things that congregants are not supposed to know about. A bit cowardly though not being open to debate. But only to be expected from JW's that are hiding from the truth. I hope you are well Tom and having a good start to this new year. I know it's only numbers, years that is, but each January does give some folks new hopes. Each day is another day closer to Judgement Day / Armageddon. I do hope the JW Org is sorted out in time, or another Org is formed to take its place. So are we only going to read comments from people that find fault in the JW Org here ? Are the rest of you going to be on the 'Loyal' forum, having your ears tickled
  3. @TrueTomHarley He is good at zany storytelling. zany /ˈzeɪni/ adjective adjective: zany; comparative adjective: zanier; superlative adjective: zaniest 1. amusingly unconventional and idiosyncratic. "his zany humour" synonyms: eccentric, bizarre, weird, peculiar, odd, quirky, avant-garde, unconventional, off-centre, strange, outlandish, ridiculous, ludicrous; More Well yep you said it Tom. Tom you are indeed a weird storyteller, your own words i think. I read that page you linked too and it's total untruth and ridiculous, ludicrous rubbish, bit I'm sure you enjoy the GB's rules of 'spiritual warfare', which in truth means telling lies. You know why people are turning against the JW Org. Child abuse is one of the biggest issues. You know that. The Elders, on one hand pretending not to be a 'clergy class', then on the other hand using 'Clergy Privilege' to hide criminals within the JW Org. The GB giving instructions that lies can be told to protect the JW Org and the GB, but calling it spiritual warfare. The Blood Issue seeming contradictory by saying NO blood but any amount of fractions which is made from blood. The Shunning problem, a rule made up by the GB and enforced by the Elders. The list of genuine concerns goes on. The GB and their ranks below them, right down to the Elders, show no love or mercy, just laws and rules. Just as the religious leaders did in Jesus' time. And if anyone dare, like me, find fault in the JW Org or the top 'brass', the GB, then we are branded Apostates. Well I for one am proud to be an Apostate to a religion that enjoys telling lies, makes up rules from nothing, misuses scriptures, changes meaning of scriptures when it suits them, hides pedophiles within it, misuses the law of the land to suit their own purposes, and then asks for money to cover all the expencies / fines when the courts finally catch up wit them. Remember this Tom, an Apostate turns against a former religion, an apostate does not turn against GOD or JESUS CHRIST.
  4. Don't know if this is exactly a new letter but it's interesting. https://reclaimedvoices.org/en/2019/01/02/a-Jehovahs-Witness-writes-a-letter-to-all-the-Jehovahs-Witnesses-in-the-Netherlans/ Worth a read i think

    UN Compact 2018

    Oh dear you really do love yourself don' t you? You are so funny. Quote "I understand the scriptures ... " Um, everyone here on earth could say that. You seem to mix up serving God, with serving your GB and JW Org. How sad that you cannot understand the difference. Serve God through Jesus Christ, yes. But not serve God, through Jesus Christ, through the GB of JW Org. When the GB can realise that they are not in charge, and when the Elders can realise that they are not superior to the Anointed, then maybe, just maybe, God and Jesus Christ can use the Org as it was meant to function. the heart is treacherous and always wants to be independent.... Oh yes, and we can see that in your GB.
  6. I don't believe in life being predestined, preplanned, but some scriptures seem to show otherwise. Or is interpretation wrong ? Pauls says at Ephesians 1 3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,b4 as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, ... Foreordained = (of God or fate) appoint or decree (something) beforehand. Now is this correct translation of the scripture or not ? Did God know Adam would sin ? Did God have plans for a 'heavenly class ' 144,000 anyway ? My brain can only take in so much at once and although i would have read this a hundred times or more I've only just began to think on this particular scripture. But it made me think on another scripture. Romans 9 v 10 through 13. Not only then but also when Re·bekʹah conceived twins from the one man, Isaac our forefather; 11 for when they had not yet been born and had not practiced anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not on works, but on the One who calls,12 it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “I loved Jacob, but Eʹsau I hated.” ( As a note here I could not find this scripture by searching in JW Org but found it immediately by putting it as a question into google. Google showed BibleHub and there it is. ) God chose Jacob before Jacob was even born. Why ? How ? Predestination ? Jacob's life pre-planned by God ? There are probably more examples but i think these two serve the purpose. Does God have plans for all of us or only a chosen few ?
  7. @Arauna Quote "Accusations, accusations of being institutionalized problem." Well it seems to be quite widely spread within the JW Org doesn't it ? Or as I've said to others, do you not believe any of the victims evidence ? Quote " all I see is a lot of whiners about sex abuse and they only have hearsay as proof " Um, that kind of proves you do not believe any of the victims I suppose. As a victim of child abuse myself, I have empathy for others. Quote "We do our duty in the congregation " what a large generalisation that is. Many of the Child Abuse cases are against ELDERS. Elders that are supposed to be protecting the congregation. And, many of the cases are dismissed as lies. The two witness rule that you don't seem to believe happens. So, it could quite easily be that, if for example here in the UK an inquiry found evidence of 500 cases of Child Abuse allegations, there could have been another 500 that were dismissed by Elders as lies, and therefore not recorded. What a wonderful ploy it would be to show only half the figures. Wow, look the JW Org recorded Child Abuse accusations, but how much evidence did they destroy to only show what they wanted to show ? There was a video actually put up on this forum which shows that instruction was given to destroy evidence. but of course you will not believe that either, because you are so blind. To be slightly balanced. A lot of the scriptural teachings are great. Not perfect I suppose but good. And I would say that being 'within' the Org in my wild youth, may have helped me to have more moral standards than i otherwise might have had. But i do realise i was stupid enough back then to just accept all I was taught. My older brother was a JW and he did a lot to support me whilst I was going through a really bad time. So i thought if he believes it then it must be true. Crazy notion I realise now. Having come out of a very wicked situation back then, and having found the congregation so pleasant and helpful, i was fooled into a false sense of security. Knowing what i know now, I can see the reality. That is balance. I do know the wicked world, I do know the JW org. I have been in at least three congregations in Southern England, having moved around a bit. I can compare situations. I'm not as naive as you pretend I am. You on the other hand appear blind to the reality of what your JW Org is really like. i'm not saying it's not the Organisation that God will use, but I'm saying God has to clean it out thoroughly now. And God may by using humans to help him just as He as done in the past.
  8. So it seems you are saying, as i have said before, that the JW Org is God's chosen Organisation, but at this moment in time it is way out of line.
  9. I think the point is to know that Humans are not the important issue here. Was God in fact being tested by rebellious Angels ? God could easily have 'removed' Adam and Eve. BUT that would not have satisfied the Angels questions. God not only had to do what was right, but in the eyes of the Angels, God had to be seen to be doing what was right. God was being challenged by an at least one Angel. So God had to answer that challenge. Personally I would have wiped out the wicked Angels and Adam And Eve, then started over, but that is just me . If I were God my thinking would be that i didn't have to prove anything to anyone. However. thousands of years of suffering by humans has existed, because God has to prove His point to the Devil and the demons (wicked angels). Why ? So that the challenge by an Angel will not happen again. We are told, and it is of course true, that God's thoughts are much higher than our thoughts. However God created us with the intelligence to question everything. So, it seems God gives us the opportunity to help Him to answer the challenge from the Devil. However it also seems that God, in some cases, preplans a person's life, to serve God's purpose. ( As in original post ). Mary was chosen to give birth to Jesus. And who was it was chosen ? to give birth to John the Baptiser. In a similar way, I suppose the Anointed are chosen, either by God or by Jesus christ. And again, I presume, God or Jesus Christ, choses to whom Holy Spirit will be given to understand scripture. In my opinion the two above lines of writing concern the same people. The Anointed are chosen and Holy Spirit is given to them to understand scripture. Then through the Anointed, (the spiritual Jew that the ten men cling on to ), people can prove their faith in God, and in so doing prove the Devil is wrong. One question is, were the Anointed pre-chosen from before they were born, just as Jacob was chosen ? The Apostle Paul seems to say that they were. Question number Two is rather more important to us though. How do we truly know who the Anointed really are ?
  10. @Arauna I can tell you are on autopilot, automatically defending the GB and its JW Org. So there is no point in me making a sensible reply. You do sound like a robot though, spewing out all the GB dribble like a computer gone wrong. Quite entertaining for a Sunday morning.
  11. Very SLY of you. You start off right of course. We should be mounded by GOD through JESUS CHRIST. But you soon go off course. Very slyly changing the idea from being moulded by those who have the right to mould us. You then mention the Elders. That is where you go totally wrong. The Elders do not do God's work. Even the Governing Body do not do God's work. You misuse scripture totally and God through Jesus Christ will judge you for it.
  12. Quote " then I am prepared to talk to you. " Do you think some of us care if you will talk to us or not. Why are you trying to make yourself seem so important that we need to justify ourselves to you ? Typical JW attitude, thinking too much of yourself. God's laws have been there for far longer than man's laws. Hence a true Christian knows what is the right action to take and never needs the law of the land to guide them in that way. Are you suggesting that here in the UK, and in USA, Australia, Canada, that it was actually legal to rape or sexually abuse young children ? And are you suggesting that if a law of the land was not in place then you would happily stand by and let it happen ? Typical JW stand on the matter. But when a law of the land is in place to join the Armed forces you will disobey it. Rightly so because God does not want a person to go to war. So when it seems suitable to disobey the law then you disobey it. But, you seem to need a law of the land, to make you obey God's law, on Love and protection and care of young children, and adults that need your help within the JW Org, and those that have had to leave because of the disgusting abuse. How strange that you would choose when to serve God and when not to. Your GB have proven themselves to treat the victims of child abuse within the JW Org as collateral damage. This is typical American thinking. Your GB has proven that they see themselves and the JW Organisation as more important than serving God or Jesus christ. Your GB has proven that they do not love the people of the congregation. And this is only in the Countries that we know about. I honestly fear for the children in countries like India, Pakistan, Africa, from where we have no news of the abuse. What terrible things are happening to children there.

    What Kind of Name Are You Making With God?

    I think the GB and JW Org should be more worried about what shame they are bringing on God's name.
  14. 11.25 pm Friday, That's over 24 hours and NO reply from local Police on the matter.
  15. We will have to agree to differ. If you believe in a Judgement day / Armageddon time, then all people on the Earth have to be given a warning. The 'model prayer' asks for God's will to be done here on Earth as well as in heaven, that is one reason I fully believe that humans will live here on this Earth in perfect conditions. Though we come to this word perfect again, and I mean it in as much as conditions that God wants to exist. So i also believe that an Earthwide teaching work is needed to help people know what God wants from us. To do this the Anointed need to work together, that means being 'organised'. Whether you want to use the word Organisation is up to you. But in my opinion the work needs to be organised. I have no idea who the Anointed are. I have no real idea of what truth is anymore. I have no idea when the Judgement day will come. BUT, I am not prepared to listen to just anyone that says they are anointed. I have what i will call snippets. Little bits of what I believe. But I'm a simple practical man, hence I complain about the Child Abuse, because it's a simple practical issue, though some on here try to complicate it, to make excuses for their leaders. Although I no nothing for sure, it is my feeling that the Judgement day / time, is a long way off. My reasoning is that people need time to find the 'truth' from God through Jesus Christ, and conditions need to be much worse Earthwide so that people can see the seriousness of it all, and see the need for God's rule to take place.. Now i will be 70 this year, so i do not think I will see the Judgement day. And God's word says about the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. I am definitely of the unrighteous, but if I'm right my death will guarantee me a resurrection. Time will tell.
  16. Oh dear Kid you are like a baby throwing it's toys out of the pram. You accuse me of this, that and the other, with totally no proof of anything, but it's all in your head Kid. I think i followed the law of the land here in England by offering information about a possible sex offence. I made no accusation, just offered information. As for not following scripture, give me three examples please ? I love working in threes. I was always taught by JW Org, repetition for emphasis. I have personal reasons for disliking the legal system here in England, but that doesn't mean i will deliberately disobey it. I don't think I ever mentioned anyone serving the Watchtower. I said they serve the Governing Body. I agree the true faithful serve God, through Jesus Christ, not through your GB or your JW Org. Neither of your scriptures relate to your accusations toward me. You said I was serving an organisation. Wrong. If you have any position of responsibility in your congregation then i pity anyong that needs help within. You would twist anyone's words just to protect your JW Org. I know that your GB has given you all permission to tell lies, but that comes from your GB, not from God or Jesus Christ.
  17. Kid you write a lot of words to actually say nothing of importance. All this idea of saying 'lock her / him up' is coming from you not me. As for 'yelling off the rooftops' that is not me either. I just gave you the reason i left the JW Org, as you seemed to be telling the world that i am serving some sort of Organisation. But you've failed again I see. You haven't given any proof of me serving anyone. As for me contacting the police, I'm still waiting for a reply from them. And those 'authorities' which you seem to dislike, the bible tells us they are there because God wants them there, to do a job, to deal with people that break the law of the land. So are you telling me that Child Abuse in the UK and America is not breaking the law now ?
  18. Zechariah 8 v 23 English Standard Version Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” Berean Study Bible This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “In those days ten men from all nations and languages will tightly grasp the robe of a Jewish man, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.” In the time of Jesus himself, here on this Earth, Jesus started an 'organisation', a group of twelve Apostles to lead the people. In that first century those Apostles set up congregations. The proof is in God's word. Paul's writings to those different congregations. The offer from God changed from being only to the Jews, to being open to all nations. I know that the GB and the JW org are wrong at this moment in time, but i think you are wrong to say there is no need for an earthly organisation to spread God's word earthwide.
  19. Quote @BillyTheKid46 "It seems you’re the one that is an organizational-pleaser just like Srecko, Butler, Witness, and whoever opposes the teaching of Christ .." Kid you said and i quote "Let’s look at things in a rational realm of realism ..." Well I left the JW Org because of all the Child Abuse within it. Now you either believe that it has happened and is still happening, or you don't. But I think it has been proven to be in the 'rational realm of realism' that you are looking for.. If you think it is all lies of course then I suppose we have no basis for conversation. But i think many cases have been well proven to be true. So please tell, with proof of course, exactly what organisation you think i am trying to please. I am opposing the rulers of an earthly organisation, and 'in a rational realm of realism' I am opposing those leaders of an earthly organisation, namely the Governing Body of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. That same Governing Body rules over the Watchtower Soc'. So you may say that i am opposing the rulers of that Watchtower Soc'. Because in a rational realm of realism, you cannot oppose an inanimate object. I am also opposing anyone that blindly serves the Governing Body of those two 'organisations', which will of course include the Elders of congregations within the JW Organisation, and any others, such as the people of the Writing department, Bethel workers, and some ordinary members of congregations too. My opposition is not fierce, not aggressive, it's assertive. As for opposing the teachings of Christ, that is a strong accusation. What proof do you have that i oppose the teachings of Christ ? I believe as much of the Bible as i can understand. I think that is an honest statement. I don't pretend to be able to interpret all scripture. I am a sinner as is everyone here on this earth. But my reason for leaving the JW Org was a genuine one and since leaving i have done further research into the GB / writing dept' / Watchtower / JW Org, and have found it desperately failing to do God's will. It seems that you " compare the teachings of false religion with that of the Watchtower " I prefer to compare the teachings of the Watchtower to that of God's written word the Bible. Why would i even be interested in the teachings of false religion ? I would ask that if you reply please keep your answer within the 'rational realm of realism' that you seem to want to view things through. In doing so you would need to give proof of any accusations against me.
  20. About an hour ago I messaged the local police by private messenger system to ask if they have a private email address for me to give them the details that I have. The messenger system is too difficult to send a large message on and an email I could save a copy for myself for my reference. This local police force covers the town in which i live and the town where the congregation is. When / if I receive a reply i will give them all the details i have. By doing it via email I will be able to word it carefully so that I do not accuse the young man, but just give the facts as they were given to me... Then if this young man does something wrong, the police will at least have reference to him. It really is a great shame that i do not have the victims name of details, as I am more concerned for her welfare. Hopefully if the police investigate, they will get full details if indeed the accusation actually took place. I know it's wrong of me to judge anyone, especially in such a serious situation. So I will give the police details as to me leaving the JW Org and as to why they may not wish to believe me. That way I feel i would be giving them a balanced viewpoint. Hopefully they will contact me this evening. 7.30 pm now.
  21. 16 Not all who have the heavenly hope are part of “the faithful and discreet slave.” (From the same 2016 Watchtower as quoted above by Kosonen) Who has the right to say this ? Who has the right to put that in print ? Note is does not say 'those that might think they have the heavenly hope'. It actually says Not all who have the heavenly hope ... The GB of the JW org approve of this being written and used at meetings of JW's. So the GB themselves are judging the other MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST'S BRIDE. The GB are judging those of the 144,000 chosen ones. Has God or Jesus Christ given the GB the right to do the judging ? I would not think so.
  22. elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. That is not the same as informing the whole congregation. If Elders only inform the parents that have children. And this does not help parents outside the congregation to protect their children. " If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse ..." If it is thus determined then I hope the Elders report it to the police so that the outside community can be protected too.
  23. So you are condemning the ELDERS of JW org then ? Thanks I agree with you.
  24. @Jay Iza @Srecko Sostar please read carefully what @JOHN BUTLER posted on November 18th 2018: and ask yourselves,: should John report this to the police and/or social services? Or is it just me, @Outta Here and @JW Insider and (maybe others like @Arauna @TrueTomHarley)who think John should report it? @Anna failed to mention that some others told me quite bluntly to mind my own business, and that all I had was 'gossip' and 'rumours'. And that i would be doing more harm than good and possibly ruining the lives of people involved. Come on Anna be fair, there were people on both sides of this issue. I don't mind you putting me down in this way but you could at least be honest about it all.
  25. I really love it all. Those of you who are joining in @Anna by turning attention away from this TOPIC. Very clever you think ? But this topic is about the RECLAIMED VOICES letter........ And Oh how often I get accused of going off topic. This topic is just one tiny piece of evidence that the JW Org hides pedophiles in it. But it seems most of you do not care. Your own lives are not affected so you don't care. So you choose to take aim at me, so be it, my shoulders are wide enough to handle it all. I am not stupid and i do realise your purposes for trying to get me to put myself in the line of trouble. Remember that I LEFT the JW Org, I wasn't disfellowshipped. I was one jump ahead of them. And i know they would just love to have a reason to call me an Apostate, to accuse me of slander, and to use me as a bad example of one who left the Org. It isn't going to happen, sorry to disappoint you all.

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