JOHN BUTLER

Three pages and no real answers. Says a lot for a JW assembly I did like the bit where someone said about not having love for your pets. A sister in the Honiton congregation (my ex congregation) would really sulk if anyone mentioned she had to leave her dog behind at Armageddon. And I think Anna mentioned something about not having 'emotional' love for anyone ? I'd need more info on this one though. Are these the things that the GB / JW Org are really teaching now ? It sounds very sad if this is the teachings.

The truth is TTH you take some people more seriously than others, but only for your own convenience. So SM says it is ok to use " Yahweh, Jehovah, Yeovah, Ieovah, Yahuh, Jahweh, etc. They all point back to YHWH. " and you do not disagree. Whereas if I said it, you would make a mountain out of it. I know you are only here to get ammo for your books but you could at least be consistent with how you reply to people. Do you find everyone that disagrees with you 'deliberately obtuse', or is it only me ?

@Anna The WT org. didn't foretell anything new, it just repeated what the Bible already foretold. As for moral standards, you already forgot how high they are. You don't remember if someone is found to be unrepentantly flaunting God's moral standards they are out on their ear? Um, did the bible foretell Armageddon was coming in 1914 or 1975 ? I don't think so. Did the Bible foretell that the generation of adults alive in 1914 would see Armageddon ? No. Did the Bible actually say that the Heavenly kingdom was set up in 1914 ? Um prob's not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moral standards. The standards are not high, they are just hidden. Once again CSA, but i know it falls of deaf ears. However they will accuse one man and one woman of committing fornication, where there is no evidence at all. But children suffer and are not listened to. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are reading FAR too much into this! My inconsistency has nothing to do with the intention of twisting anything. Just laziness. Your so called inconsistency was not such at all. You were either fully aware or under the same influence that the GB and it's Org are under. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1975 was speculation. To be baptized as JW to be saved is a belief. Armageddon being close is also a belief. All three were / are beliefs, but all based on speculation.The first was proved false. The other two there is no proof of. The point being about baptism that the scriptures say to baptise in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. That does not include JW Org. Matthew 28 v 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- we CAN make mistakes in understanding where holy spirit is leading "us" (the person in question). Just because the holy spirit guides, doesn't mean that someone is capable of following it perfectly all the time. This shows a sad lack of faith in you. If everyone thought along those lines we might start to think that even the Bible can be wrong as it was written by imperfect men. It was also put together by imperfect men. We might think that other 'books' should be added. We might start to think that we can ignore bits as they may be 'mistakes'. You way of thinking is that your GB are the F&DS and can make mistakes and TEACH MISTAKES. Well the disciples/ Apostles were chosen by God or Christ, so could their writings be mistakes ? Is this the excuse you are looking for to get your GB off the hook ? Ye of little faith. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps they are not going beyond what is written. How would you know? By their works you will know them. And Luke 14 v 11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, in fact God and Jesus want us to be obedient; "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account"... (Heb 13: 17) EVERY Christian Organisation / Church could use that very same scripture. The Bible is not the property of the GB and JW Org. I could imagine the Pope using it . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But complete obedience is first and foremost to God. One day you will say those words and then realise why John Butler left the JW Org.

@Anna Please explain that expression 'out of whack' for me, remembering that I'm not American. If you mean that my thoughts are not your thoughts, then good. If you mean my thoughts are not JW Org thoughts, even better. As far as I am aware there is not much difference between an error and a mistake The word was ERR. err /əː/ verb FORMAL be mistaken or incorrect; make a mistake. "the judge had erred in ruling that the evidence was inadmissible" synonyms: make a mistake, be wrong, be in error, be mistaken, mistake, make a blunder, blunder, be incorrect, be inaccurate, misjudge, miscalculate, get things/something/it wrong, bark up the wrong tree, get the wrong end of the stick, be wide of the mark; More fail to adhere to the proper or accepted standards; do wrong. "he has erred and strayed as many of us have" synonyms: misbehave, do wrong, go wrong, behave badly, misconduct oneself, be bad, be naughty, get up to mischief, get up to no good, act up, act badly, give someone trouble, cause someone trouble; More You said to err and make mistakes. so you were using both meanings. Even the word error can mean behave badly. Definition of 'see the error of one's ways' If someone sees the error of their ways, they realize or admit that they have made a mistake or behaved badly.

If it wasn't with intent then you must have either a natural ability for it, or, you have been brainwashed by the JW Org (etc) to do it without even thinking.

@Anna. you comment is soooooooooooooo funny. First point. And this is funny. Quote "who all err and make mistakes." So you are agreeing with me that to 'err' is not a mistake but a deliberate wrongdoing. Because you say, err AND make mistakes. Surely complete trust/confidence only belongs to God. I would include Jesus Christ as he has been given the power and authority, and he will be doing the judging.. The GB cannot ensure our salvation, No, but didn't the Watchtower used to say that a person had to be part of the JW / W/t org/soc to gain salvation ? The Insight book says this in part regarding true and false prophets: “The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass.... Well that knocks the Bible Students and JW Org / GB / W/t on the head then doesn't it. Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God’s mind on matters. This didn't work with CSA in the JW Org did it ? MORAL STANDARDS. I don't think so. If his message contradicted God’s revealed will and standards, he was false". Well we have both of those in JW Org. The standards are low and predictions are false. The GB falsely call themselves the F&DS. Now this bit is almost clever, Quote Anna Starts with 'The true prophet', then she moves on to 'the prophet/spokesperson/GB' but finally she moves on to ' the prophet/GB/FDS. How sly is that. A perfect JW way to twist things. Start with a true prophet and end with the GB/F&DS. Personally, I find nothing wrong with speculation, as long as it is not presented as fact. Yes the speculation about 1975 was wonderful wasn't it. And the speculation that one has to be a baptised JW to be 'saved'. And the speculation that Armageddon is 'so close now'.......... Since no one can interpret scripture without the possibility of making an error, That is because they are not inspired Anointed. Why would God give us His word if He would not give inspiration of holy spirit to Anointed ones to interpret it properly. Do you think God wants people to misuse scripture ? Going beyond what is written. Calling themselves the F&DS............... I think completely distrusting the GB is as unreasonable as completely trusting them. BUT the GB say they are the F&DS and requite complete obedience. Didn't someone put up a Watchtower quote where the GB said that God and Jesus Christ trust them (the GB), so everyone else should trust them. Your whole comment reminds me of Mark Antony "I come to bury Caesar not to praise him". BUT your comment is very sly, almost clever, and sooo funny.

Nobody will know what the generation actually really is now until the fat lady sings this time round. Whatever it is, we will know soon enough. Convoluted arguments on pet theories are a waste of time. I don't care when the end actually is. I am just glad it is coming. Now here we have two points. 1. the fact that @Outta Here agrees that the GB, DO NOT KNOW, are not guided by God at this point to know, so the GB should not be trying to guess or mislead people. 2. the fact that nobody should really care, although it is something hoped for, it should not be of prime importance. So why then does the GB / W/t make a big issue of it ? why can they not admit that THEY DO NOT KNOW ?

But you would probably have said that to Jesus when Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites. If truth hurts you so be it.

JW congregants are not supposed to think rationally. That's what all the meetings are for, to tell you what to think and tell you what to say to others. The Work Book and the Watchtower mags dictate the 'thinking' that JW's do. The NWT is written in such a way so as to dictate the GB's way of thinking. The tracts are supposed to 'do the talking' for you. JW's no longer have to think. Because remember, JW congregants are not supposed to have their own opinions. And if they do have their own opinions they are not allowed to express them. Outa Here is a great example of how a person can be dictated to and be soooo brainwashed in the worst possible way. Just look at this : But the Governing Body? Well my life depends on recognising who they are I would have thought his/her life would depend on how they serve God through Christ.

There is only one solution to the way the Devil is trying his best to run this world. Jesus died so that God could put it all right, but God will chose His own time. I've said many times that there is not a useable Organisation here on Earth right now for God to use properly. So God would probably have to work on that one. Whether God will 'sort out' the JW Org or build a new Org is not for me to guess. (I leave the guessing to the GB & Co). As for humanity, well I think it has a while yet to keep on keeping on. The Earth is still quite useable and no serious damage had been done by nukes. Although many people die, the human race keeps increasing, so it is not the full on disaster that 'science' seems to say it is. There could be another hundred years yet. There does not seem to me to be any seriousness in serving God though. Some on here keep comparing the GB / JW org to the early Christians, but those early Christians gave up everything and had basically nothing. In contrast some pioneers here in the UK will not accept second hand items from people, and they will only buy new. JW's live in luxury in many places compared to the early Christians. I'm not including places like Russia as that situation is totally different, but in UK I know of JW's still having posh houses built for them. So maybe God is wanting people to serve Him more seriously.

I will always laugh when anyone on here compares the idea of serving God properly with some sort of worldly 'dealings'. The only way of comparing serving God properly is with what God has had written as instruction in His written word the Bible. (I presume that God guided not only the writings but also the gathering of the 66 books). The reason God commanded us to be in subjection to the "Superior Authorities" is NOT because they are even right most of the time .... but because even the VERY WORST are better than anarchy. That is obvious, but not so obvious to the Soc /Org, that they couldn't leave that scripture alone. They even had to deliberately change the meaning of it to gain power for themselves. Quote "The TRUTH sets us free." Yes true truth would. Or are you caught up in that trick of the Soc/Org's, that using the word truth means they speak truth or teach truth ? Can you not see the con in that ? The deliberate deception. It is done to work on the emotions / sub conscious or what ever gives people that 'good' feeling. By calling it the 'truth', 'being in the truth', people let down their guard, they start to believe ALL of it. They do not question anything that comes from the Watchtower mags or from the platform. Add to that, that congregants are told not to have their own opinion and/or not to discuss anything that may differ from 'instructions'. HOW MUCH FREEDOM DOES THAT GIVE PEOPLE, BEING DICTATED TO BY THE GB RIGHT DOWN TO THE ELDERS. Being frightened of being d/fed for the slightest thing. Is that the freedom you get from the JW Org ? Quote : "Humans are just nasty, selfish and no-good". You must mix with the wrong crowd James. Oh yes you mix with JW's. I get involved in automobilia auctions, I go to classic car shows, I go to vintage motor scooter shows, I spend too much time viewing all sorts of auctions, and the people are great. Very friendly and sociable. In fact I tend to meet up with the same people regularly at auctions and there is no bitterness if I win lots or if they do. Your view of humans being nasty, selfish and no good, is just a JW viewpoint to try to frighten people from mixing with 'outsiders'. But haven't we seen where the trouble really lies ? Inside that JW org. That's where many of the nasty, selfish, no goods are. Including the GB in my opinion. Oh by the way, do you honestly think God wants a GB or an Org that is only 50% obedient, or only gets 50% right ?

"Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families. Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.

Well it's only my opinion but if a person in not part of the solution then they are part of the problem. If a person does not believe what the GB / W/t / JW Org says, yet still supports them by attending meetings and even worse doing ministry, which involves distributing literature 'of a dubious nature' and giving bible studies which are not truly bible studies but indoctrination from GB / W/t books, then that person is part of the problem. And back to what Tom calls my favourite subject, if a person invites families with young children to the KH, knowing that the KH might not be a 'safe place' to be, then that person is also part of that problem. But that problem is caused by the GB rules of course, which allows for the hiding of 'unkind' people in the congregations. James, none of your cartoons hide the facts that a person cannot sit on the fence. A person either supports the whole rotten lot or does not support them. Them being the GB / W/t / JW Org as a complete bundle.

@Anna So here you do go back on your word, well as you spoke it to me anyway. I think you were being slightly sarcastic to me, so I had to laugh when I read you latest comment, which seemed to go back on all you'd said to me. Quote " I realize it seems like I am contradicting myself since I said that one " should have all those "own opinions on scripture" cleared up, otherwise one wouldn't get baptized as one of JW since one of the requirements is to agree with all 100 questions asked in the "organized book" " Yes completely contradicting yourself Anna. Of course when I was going through the questions in the 80’s there was no mention of the FDS applying exclusively to the GB. We know this has been a recent change as is evident in the 2015 version of the book. That's a good one to show Tom as he thinks there hasn't been important changes made. Like i say, breach of contract in the real world. Quote Anna " I know for sure @James Thomas Rook Jr. only agrees with about 15% of the interpretations made by the GB and yet he remains a part of the congregation as far as I am aware. " Yeh now that is what I call hypocrisy big time. I mean a person could remain a Catholic with those principals. A Catholic could say 'You know like, i really dig the pope and the Catholic religion, but i don't believe half of what they say, but I'll stay Catholic anyway'. That is how stupid JW's sound when they stay physically in but spiritually / emotionally out. But I've said before, we all know why they do it. It's that Blackmail of losing everyone and everything. It frightens some people too much.

Problem with that is, that so many things have been changed in the last 40 years or so that basically if it was in the world it would be breaking the contract. Even words in the NWT have been changed. It's all been discussed on here Anna. Words changed, meanings changed, rules changed, ah but they call it 'new light'. 'This Generation' anyone ?

As regards CSA, the org. is not in trouble because of some maliciously and wrongfully applied scripture involving the two witness rule. @Anna You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want ok. Many victims have said that they were not believed because they did not have two witnesses to back up the facts they were giving to the elders. Many victims have said they were called liars for the same reason. Some victims have said they were even disfellowshipped because they continued to try to get justice from the Elders and the congregation. Carry on watching your stupid television programmes and using that as you form of judgement. I think that is dragging the bottom of the barrel as the saying goes but if it helps you ........................... Today, we (JWs) don't execute people obviously The JW Org executes people spiritually. Well it tries to. It thinks it has the right to. It tries to frighten people into crawling back, begging the Org's forgiveness. However God's word says we should serve God through Christ, not through your GB or your Org.

Has Admin given up all hope of anyone sticking to the topic ? but I suppose this is all much more fun.

Well done Billy, keep on worshiping the GB or maybe pretending to worship them, whatever your motive. Quote : Those early church fathers wanted to have their followers under subjection and influence of their personal teachings. And that is exactly the same with the Society / GB / JW Org. A good example was the deliberate changing of the meaning of the scripture concerning, the Superior Authorities. Add to that, that congregants have always been told 'not to have their own opinions of scripture, but to rely on the W/t / GB / JW Org's opinion of it all. Quite funny really. You can own a Bible, read a Bible, pray to God, BUT don't you dare have your own opinion of scripture, and even worse it would be suicidal to mention your opinion of scripture to others. Quote : That meant, their personal understanding of scripture was law. It still is. The GB's understanding has to be accepted by all JW's. Why Billy thinks he is being clever by comparing the GB to people on this forum I do not know. Do any of us on here actually want to be leaders ? I don't that's for sure. And as for the GB being leaders, i would say they are more like Dictators.

Out of context as usual Tom tom. But it's the only way that you and kid can criticise me. The smiley was related to the Kid saying i was already condemned to death and I said that the dead are conscious of nothing so If I didn't get a resurrection it would not matter................. Tom, there is a big difference to KEEPING AWAKE and WATCHING, than to, KEEP TELLING LIES AND MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS just to frighten people into an organisation.

And this is how it was and probably still is possible to HIDE Pedophiles in the JW Org. Why ? Because it seems people like Anna and others in that Org think YOU MUST OBEY like robots. Hence the Elders HAVE obeyed like robots, and we have seen the terrible results. And don't try to tell me the Two Witness Rule wasn't used, because there is enough evidence Earthwide to prove it was. And the Elders, it seems, didn't even question their obedience to the GB, as opposed to the love and kindness they should have shown to victims. Why Oh Why do you people worship those 8 men ? They even say they are not inspired and that they err. And what is the point of actually having a Bible ? And what is the point of actually being able to pray in person to God and to ask for spiritual guidance ? Only to be told by your GB and Elders, not to think for yourselves. Remember Life of Brian "You're all individuals" And one guy says "I'm not". Well it seems you lot are not individuals either. What did J.T.R. Jr say, something about not being a 'monolinth' well some such word. James said all JW's are different and do things for different reasons. It doesn't seem so here. It seems that you all want to be robots. Quote from above comment " *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life.... " Well that is not happening in the JW Org that is for sure. And when I've mentioned judgingthe JW Org by God's standards I've been criticised for it. If the Society / GB had been meek and humble then the Org would not be in such a mess, and it wouldn't need to be making massive payouts either. I'll just repeat that line from above comment :- One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life...

Isn’t that another indication that ‘Judgement day’ is not so far off? The planet is frying. Tom, in WW1 I would think lots of people were saying 'Oh look at the state of this world, Armageddon must soon be here' and in WW2 people would have said the same. And in Vietnam again the same. And then there were big plagues, tsunamis, hurricanes et al. During each and every disaster I would think some people would think it was Armageddon / Judgement day, or hoped it would be. I think most JW's want it to be Armageddon very soon. Keep hoping for it Tom, but don't hold your breath. People's brains are frying by using mobile phones / cell phones. And we've had hotter weather than this in the 1960's. You've got time to write ten more books yet, you'll be a millionaire by the time Judgement day arrives. If you live that long. I won't be alive when the Judgement comes, and according to Billy I won't get a resurrection either. But the dead are conscious of nothing at all, so if I don't get resurrected i won't know about it. People take it all much too seriously.

@TrueTomHarley you lose me half way through your comments. I'm getting old and it's hot here in Devon England Quote "I don’t entreat them to come back on the side of the angels." "Essentially, they have tasted and pronounced Jehovah bad." Once again i don't know exactly who you are talking about, BUT these two quotes above make me think that YOU are ONCE AGAIN mixing up JW Org/GB/Wt, with Almighty God. It was YOU that said that a person does not have to be a baptised JW to be able to witness about Jehovah. So does a person have to use the name Jehovah to witness about Almighty God ? What if a person uses the name Yahweh ? Space Merchant for an example. I'm sure he would say he is a Christian. Does he have to use the name Jehovah to talk about God ? If perchance you were including me in those above comments, then you judge me badly. But I suppose I put you and the KId in the same pot, so I don't expect anything different. Just a tag on : now i know it was Srecko that you were talking about, i can't remember what you said about him

@TrueTomHarley As for identifying of whom you speak, it does make life easier. To keep going back pages to reread comments to get the jist of it all becomes boring and time consuming. How do you know that ‘Judgement day’ is still a long way off yet? There is not a clean identifiable Organisation here on this Earth for people to associate with. Tom, I can sort of understand that you defend the Watchtower/GB/ JW Org, but at this point in time it is not 'clean', either truthfully inside, or in the eyes of outsiders. It needs to be clean in the eyes of outsiders if it wishes to attract those outsiders. I suppose you could argue that God would guide people in anyway, but would He guide people into an Org that is not (at present time) fit for purpose ? The JW Org does not stand out as being God's chosen Org, nor does the GB stand out as being God's chosen anointed to guide it. Many inside the JW Org are critical of the GB and its rules. Many outside the JW Org earthwide are aware of the problems within the Org. Things like the Blood Issue have now become ridiculous with all the 'little bits' that JW's can use. And things like the 'This Generation' situation have now become known outside the Org and are a bit of a laughing stock. Then you get those rather stupid videos about sexual matters, well it makes the Org look like a clown show to outsiders. Remember Luke 17 v 1&2. 'It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Never the less woe to the one through whom they come' The JW Org has now become a cause for stumbling. I agree with you about the Bible Students / Witnesses identifying many important points and standing up for those points. For instance, how wrong the trinity is, and that we do not have a soul that 'floats' off to heaven, and other important issues. But those things have been long established now and now the GB are messing with people's heads. What is that scripture ? 'The Holy Spirit and we ourselves favour adding no further burden to you .......... ' So where is that ONE organisation that God can use RIGHT NOW ? Because the GB has taken the JW Org out of the running. Hence it would take time to rebuild the JW Org / Wt, or to create a new Org. But there is still time. The Earth is not yet on destruction time. Yes things are bad but probably a lot of hype too. God himself knows exactly when to act, when to have people here on Earth ready. I do not think God will bring the judgement whilst there is no clear visible 'Jew' for people to 'cling to'

As far as the anointed, it’s true, it’s nobody’s business who is anointed or not. This is BtK opinion. For my part I would need to know that the leaders of God's servants here on earth were Anointed and inspired of God's Holy Spirit. It makes sense to me that the leaders need to be both. I do not care in the least if everyone of you on here disagree with me. Who knows, that could make me even more right ... As 'Judgement day' is still a long way off yet, God has plenty of time to show the true Anointed and to prove they are inspired. He did it with early Christians. Why would He not do it now ? And I'm still happy with my view of 'ten men clinging to the hem of a Jew'. God, through Christ, will guide willing ones to the true Jew, the true Anointed. But He will do it when He is ready, not before.

Tom : Well, I think he already has picked, long before he came here, and from our point of view, it is not wise. You do make life complicated when you don't mention who you are talking about.