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JOHN BUTLER

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  1. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Perhaps James is a spy. 
  2. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    What makes no sense to me is that you have evaded my question. If you have peered into the deeper things of God and have decided that those running the show are frauds, why do you come to the meetings that they sponsor, as you must have for them to give you any grief.
    Witness runs a fine shop that she operates out of Facebook. Why don’t you go there?
  3. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Shiwiii in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    I'll give you one rude word for that comment James, Bullshit. I do not normally swear on here but your comment is just an excuse. 
    The comment also shows a lack of faith in Almighty God. 
    Remembering that the JW Org is nothing like the Nation of Israel. In that Nation most people were born into it and had to live under the LAW.  In JW Org most people are NOT born into it, they are volunteers. They, supposedly, want to be there. 
    So what you should have is 8.5 million people willing to serve God properly in what SHOULD BE an inspired organisation, led by inspired Anointed brothers. 
    By saying that the GB / JW Org / Watchtower Soc 'are operated beyond their design capacity,'  you are saying that it is not God's organisations and not inspired or even guided by God's Holy Spirit. 
    So how does it make it 'the only game in town', when it's not even in the running ? 
    It would have to be God's chosen Organisation, being inspired / guided / run by God's Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, who would be operating through willing, humble,  God fearing, true, honest human servants.  
    Oh dear multi fail by JW Org. 
     
  4. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    I have given my reasons before on this forum at great length ....
    In one sentence ... it is the ONLY "game in town" ... and I do not have unrealistic expectations about what humans are capable of doing as regards righteousness.
    I am a retired Engineer, and I recognize when machines are operated beyond their design capacity.
    This is also true of ALL people.
    There are NO exceptions.
    Reality is what it is .... not what we WISH it was.
     
  5. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    There are two parts to a Corporate Baptism:
    1.) Dedication and public declaration of agreement of being adopted by Jehovah God, and Christ Jesus,  and
    2.) An oath of fealty and subservience to the Corporation's ( The "Organization" ) policies and procedures.
    I suspect the Watchtower Lawyers, which now dictate the nuances of our "Corporate Theology", will have to work a LOT of overtime, when this issue hits the courtroom, as respects to Corporate baptized  minors, below the age of 18, when challenged on that point alone.
    UNless legally emancipated, they do NOT have the right to make contracts, except for food, clothing, shelter, and suchlike absolute essentials .... and CERTAINLY (to be tested in court ...) not contested fealty to a Corporation, the contract being entered into before the age of majority.
    I do NOT agree with JW.ORG, becoming JW.BORG .... but the Watchtower Lawyers and accountants are now running the show, and there is NOTHING... NOTHING, anybody on Earth can do about it.
    The Governing Body CANNOT be fired by anyone on Earth.
    ...and they know it!
  6. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    It makes no sense to you because you have missed the point tht Baptism to God and Christ is what is in the person's heart ....the fact that Witnesses are DELIBERATELY kept ignorant OF THE  CORPORATE LOYALTY OATH, that they are ALSO swearing fealty to a Corporation excuses their ignorance, completely.  Not every soldier is a John Rambo.
    The Corporate Fealty Oath  is deliberately obscured and hidden until the very last moment for a specific reason.
    That part of the ceremony is a deliberate legal trap.
    The Governing Body and the Watchtower lawyers know EXACTLY what they are doing, and exactly what the words mean .... in a court of law .... where someone  is suing them for malfeasance or other crimes against the dignity of the individual.
    With those weasel words, expertly disguised or completely hidden, and DELIBERATELY not taught ... to the baptismal candidate ... they can legitimately say to a judge or jury ... and have it hold up in a court of law ... that the baptized Witnesses agreed to be subordinate and mistreated by the Corporation.
     
  7. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Not only do the have the Bible, but according to the Watchtower, they have been appointed by Holy Spirit:
    The "gifts in men" mentioned at Eph 4:8 are Christian elders, who are appointed by holy spirit and are given authority to care for the spiritual interests of fellow believers.  (Acts 20:28)  km 8/02 pp. 5-6
    Two lies:
    When it comes to child abuse, they must call for legal advice.  Their given authority to care for spiritual interests of fellow believers, stops there.
    The "gifts in men" do not refer to those not anointed, but to the anointed ones.  Eph 4:11-13
    Would they have Holy Spirit if this elder body from the top down, has lied about not only their false authority, but robbing the identity of who God has provided to serve under Holy Spirit's guidance?
    Would God really give these men the ability to shepherd justly if they rule behind a lie?
  8. Downvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to TrueTomHarley in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    “What I mean is this, that each one of you says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·polʹlos,” “But I to Ceʹphas,” “But I to Rook.”
    Is there a reason that he cannot be baptized at an assembly or convention like every other Witness on the planet? Did you tell him to wear tight pants, too?
  9. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    If you think that the GB, Branch Office personnel and Circuit Overseers do not think of themselves as "Clergy", try baptizing your Bible Study one afternoon at a local public pool, without congregation oversight.
    The Baptism may be acceptable to God, and Christ .... but you will "catch hell" in the little back room, and may be disfellowshipped, yourself, for not including the fealty oath to the Organization., as represented by the Governing Body., and the Elders declare the baptism invalid.
    Or do you think the Ethiopian Eunuch answered all 100 questions, and pledged his allegiance to the Organization in Jerusalem, before he was baptized?
  10. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Witness in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Quote @Anna If that's how you look at it. I thought our every thought and motivation comes from following the Bible.
    Are you really that naive ? 
    But please tell all of us here, who do you mean by OUR in your sentence ? 
    You obviously can't be including the GB, or the Lawyers, or any other top administration, or the Elders. 
    That only leaves the basic congregants in each congregation................... 
    As for your second comment there, it is a bit dumb. 
    if elders became mandated reporters, every time they phoned Legal for advice, they would be dictated by "central command" to report. 
    They would not need to phone Legal for advice, just report it directly to Police or Authorities. And if congregants knew beforehand that it would be reported to those authorities then it would be up to the conscience of the person that had the information or up to the victim to tell the Elders or not. 
    As it is now the Elders are protecting the GB and Its Org and hiding the pedophile from the Police and authorities if they do not report it immediately. But you know that anyway, because that's what this whole problem is all about.  
  11. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Yes. In fact WHY they have to call Legal Department for advice on - to call or not to call - if Bible PRINCIPLES and GUIDANCE of holy spirit are powers SUFFICIENT for Elders when making decisions? :))
  12. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Yes. In fact WHY they have to call Legal Department for advice on - to call or not to call - if Bible PRINCIPLES and GUIDANCE of holy spirit are powers SUFFICIENT for Elders when making decisions? :))
  13. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    If, then, the clergy-laity distinction is not based on the model set by Jesus’ apostles and other early Christians, does that make it wrong? According to the Bible, yes.......
    Spiritually older men did, of course, serve as overseers, which included being shepherds and teachers. (Acts 20:28) However, these men were not paid clerics........
    Sadly, when people disregard that divinely inspired directive, spiritual harm usually results, and that is true of the clergy-laity arrangement. How so? Please consider the following six points.
    1. The separation of a clergy class implies that one must have a special calling to be a minister of God. 
    2. The clergy-laity distinction exalts the clergy class, an evidence being adulatory religious titles.
    3. A paid clergy class can impose a heavy financial burden on the laity, especially when the former have lavish lifestyles.
    4. Because a clergyman may depend on others for financial support, he might be tempted to dilute the Bible’s message in order to please parishioners. 
    5. The clergy-laity distinction tends to cause lay people to relegate religion to the clergy, while the laity just turn up for weekly services.
    6. When the laity are Biblically uninformed, they can easily be misled by clerics, even exploited by them.
    source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009288
    When GB, Elders and WT Lawyers defend themselves before Courts how in JW Congregations Worldwide existing clergy penitence as answer to Judges why they not want to give verbal or written testimony to Court, than all this what was said in Awake is worth NOTHING. We can also discuss some other claims here about this 6 points and found it problematic.   
    Dear @Anna answer would not come by WT Society loud public claim how clergy penitence WILL STOP TO exist in congregations. Well, according to Awake that same THING doesn't exist at all in WT Society or JW Church. :))))..... because JW have not CLERGY :)))) ... only on Courts cases when millions of $ are at stake.
     
  14. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Quote @Anna If that's how you look at it. I thought our every thought and motivation comes from following the Bible.
    Are you really that naive ? 
    But please tell all of us here, who do you mean by OUR in your sentence ? 
    You obviously can't be including the GB, or the Lawyers, or any other top administration, or the Elders. 
    That only leaves the basic congregants in each congregation................... 
    As for your second comment there, it is a bit dumb. 
    if elders became mandated reporters, every time they phoned Legal for advice, they would be dictated by "central command" to report. 
    They would not need to phone Legal for advice, just report it directly to Police or Authorities. And if congregants knew beforehand that it would be reported to those authorities then it would be up to the conscience of the person that had the information or up to the victim to tell the Elders or not. 
    As it is now the Elders are protecting the GB and Its Org and hiding the pedophile from the Police and authorities if they do not report it immediately. But you know that anyway, because that's what this whole problem is all about.  
  15. Like
    JOHN BUTLER got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Regarding TTH always bringing in 'the world' to every situation, this time the Boy scouts. 
    In the world, when a government minister or a big business boss does something really bad, they either 'step down' from their position voluntarily or are requested to step down from their position of power. 
    So if TTH thinks the JW Org is equal to the world, then maybe the GB should step down voluntarily or be told to do so. 
  16. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in The Man of Lawlessness in the 21st Century   
    What evidences and proofs you have to offer us for such claim? By which/what standards and methods you came to conclusion who was and who wasn't "inspired"? What Paul is and have done to be called "inspired"? .... and what Clement, Chloe and Epaphras are not and not done that you put them in group of "uninspired" Christians?
    Question come for our time. Who are "inspired" and who are "uninspired" Christians TODAY? Give us some names or tell us, where we can find this individuals in places we live today?
    Another question. You separate Christians in TWO CLASSES. What is the role of each one class ?
  17. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Because every thought and motivation would not then be dictated by "Central Command"
    The Elders would be using their NATURAL human conscience, instead of following the "outline" ... the script.
    One way to consolidate your authority is the exercise of arbitrary and capricious POWER.
    ---------------------------------------
    Hitler was OBVIOUSLY insane to all sane people ... but his arbitrary , capricious, and irrational exercise of power short-circuited the reasoning abilities of his minions.
    It also short-circuited their natural consciences, and their natural abhorrence to tyranny.
    The ONLY way to rationalize the irrational .... was absolute obedience.
  18. Sad
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    John Butler:
    This is what happens when you pervert Justice,  by even having the ABILITY to destroy whole families, when someone does not "tow the line" of Company Policy, by those who invoke the authority of Jehovah God to excuse their methods.
    If we disciplined a baby .... by cutting off it's head, and exiling the parents and relatives, and cutting out their tongues .... human civilization would cease.
    In the times of the Crusaders, they actually DID cut out peoples' tongues, to keep them from speaking , but just as in the case of our shunning policy and practices ... the  REAL reason is to generate  FEAR AND OBEDIENCE to the exercise of man-made authority ... to consolidate power, and not have the income stream disrupted.
    This is nothing new ... it is a story as old as human existence.
    What is new, is that the brutality is wrapped in silken words, loving tones,  soft voices, , and the claws are concealed by a silk and velvet glove.
    ... and millions and millions of hypnotic, well chosen words, continually repeated.
    Every real problem we have in the Truth, is DIRECTLY because of the policies of HOW disfellowshipping is done.
    Disfellowshipping is a necessary surgery to cut out cancer that will spread.
    Mutilating the spectators and family  is evil.
    From that fountain flows compounded injustice, fear,  bitter cold, and unnecessary heavy, heavy load of EVERY sort.
    It is a cascading avalanche  that turns good men of conscience into cowardly minions of EXPERTLY and COMPETENTLY disguised evil.
    There is a word for this ......
     
    NORMAL.
     
     
     
     
  19. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    You have deflected to the Boy Scouts.  In your mind, you are desperately trying to preserve a corrupt leadership/organization that claims to represent the Almighty God.  Is it not more important to preserve our relationship with God, rather than with men who fail deliberately and repeatedly, to protect their "sheep"?  
    I am more "vested" in the prophetic outcome of this organization, of which this matter only contributes to.  
    When it is in your power,
    don’t withhold good from the one it belongs to.
    28 Don’t say to your neighbor, “Go away! Come back later.
    I’ll give it tomorrow”—when it is there with you.
    29 Don’t plan any harm against your neighbor,
    for he trusts you and lives near you.
    30 Don’t accuse anyone without cause,
    when he has done you no harm.
    31 Don’t envy a violent man
    or choose any of his ways;
    32 for the devious are detestable to the Lord,
    but He is a friend to the upright.
    33 The Lord’s curse is on the household of the wicked,
    but He blesses the home of the righteous;
    34 He mocks those who mock,
    but gives grace to the humble.
    35 The wise will inherit honor,
    but He holds up fools to dishonor.  Prov 3:27-35
     
     
  20. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to JW Insider in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Any data that an organization keeps with respect to a policy or prior practice is always considered fair game in a lawsuit, because these lawsuits seek to find out whether the prior practice matched the stated "public policy." The claim, if one goes after an organization for damages, is that the practice has been different from the policy.
    For example, a particular city or jurisdiction claims that their policy is to always change the lead (Pb) pipes in all areas where the levels of lead reach a certain threshold, and they have kept data on all lead level complaints, and data on every area where they have changed pipes (or fought against changing the pipes).
    If the city is proud of their record, and wants to prove that their stated policy was honest, they would be happy to have this record made available to the courts. And even if the courts say that they only need it to determine the probability of organizational wrongdoing in one particular case, there is a chance that this document/database will be leaked, or that the knowledge of such a document/database will cause it to be requested for multiple future cases, for as long as it is still viable to sue the water district or organization. If the water district has done a commendable job, they might even be happy that the document/database gets leaked. They might even leak it themselves.
    Of course, no organization is perfect, and there will always be items in such a database that make organizations concerned, or even ashamed. The fact that over a thousand cases of abuse in the Australian Branch were NEVER reported to authorities, and that not even one was reported, produced powerful circumstantial evidence that there may have been pressure from somewhere to keep such crimes unreported. It may have shown that almost any excuse will be grasped at to keep such crimes unreported, even in areas where reporting is not only ethical, but mandatory. The Australian database was therefore very important to show a pattern, in the event that a new case would claim that such a pattern actually existed.
    The other concern, of course, is that, if the database cannot be redacted, that some well-known names of brothers at the highest levels of responsibility in the organization could be revealed, bringing shame on the organization, and the families of those brothers. The Australian database had two names, I'm told, that went to the very top of the Branch in Australia (still living), and one name that went to the very top of the US Branch (a person no longer alive who was moved around after accusations surfaced). If this is true, it would give a whole new dimension to why it is suspected that the US Branch will never release the US database.
  21. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    With Anna's help I believe you are now aware that John Redwood wrote this.  He is the same man who, with his wife, told their story in the Atlantic.    
    https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03/the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-molesters/584311/
  22. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Srecko Sostar in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    It seems sometimes how this "chariot" making speedy turns in ALL Directions IN the Same Time  
  23. Haha
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Anna in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    This is puzzling. Why should the plaintiff have the right to demand anything that had nothing to do with his case?
    I wouldn't go that far.
    I have no idea what John Redwood is talking about here. Perhaps I should ask him.
    If elders became mandatory reporters, how would that affect anything? It would just mean that every future case, or suspicion of child abuse or accusation would be reported to the police. How would that be losing a tight grip on the elders?
    It appears that the main reason for the appeal is that this would allow for non disclosure of historical cases, and hence limit law suits.
  24. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    Witness:
    I am deeply ashamed for the reputation of Jehovah, and the Brotherhood that the Governing Body has Lawyers that will spare no effort, time, and money to PERVERT Justice.
    I wish you were lying or agenda driven, but I know from independent research everything you said here is true .... and that there is more, besides that.
    Thanks for the vigilance.
  25. Upvote
    JOHN BUTLER reacted to Witness in "WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"   
    From John Redwood...
    A preview of upcoming news:
    Jehovah's Witnesses are appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States, but this time it has nothing to do with preaching or saluting the flag.
    It's all about child abuse.
    Specifically, the protection (or cover-up) of information, documents, and testimony of persons involved in cases of child abuse.
    I will be covering this story in the coming weeks and months, but I thought I would share some of this news and try to distill it down as simply as I can.
    I'd like to point out first that Watchtower has appealed to the Supreme Court in connection with their loss of yet another California child abuse case. The chance that Watchtower's appeal being will be heard by the Supreme Court is slim, but anything is possible.
    What brought this about?
    There are many ongoing civil child abuse cases in California. One such case is J.W. versus Watchtower. J.W. happens to be the initials for the victim of former JW elder Gilbert Simental, who went on a spree of molestation which touched the lives of numerous victims.
    As with other cases, the plaintiff demanded that Watchtower turn over to the court a database of child abuse cases known to be maintained by Watchtower of New York.
    In this particular case, because Watchtower failed to turn over the documents in a timely manner, attorneys asked for a default judgment of just over 4 million dollars.
    The court agreed with the plaintiff and entered a default judgment in that amount. Watchtower was required to post a bond of more than 6 million dollars while their appeal was pending.
    Watchtower lost their appeal, and the decision of the court was upheld. This decision is final- with one exception.
    Watchtower has decided to appeal to the United States Supreme court on the basis that their judicial hearings related to child abuse matters are "confidential intra-faith communications" and that they do not, and should not, reveal those communications or documents to anyone, including civil courts.
    I'd like to make it very clear what Watchtower is doing here. They are fighting for their right NOT to allow civil authorities to dictate what is confidential, and what is not confidential.
    All of this is in relation to their claim that elders do not have the right or duty to report child abuse to the authorities.
    Watchtower overtly lies to their members by claiming that they obey secular laws, except when they conflict with God's laws.
    Yet they break the law every single time by advising elders NOT to report child abuse to the authorities.
    It does NOT matter whether child abuse occurs in a mandatory reporting state- elders STILL do not report to the police because Watchtower has told them that ALL of their communications are protected by clergy-penitent privilege.
    This is false- and it is exactly why they are losing tens of millions of dollars in child abuse civil cases. Watchtower advises elders to break the law.
    And now they want the Supreme Court of the United States to agree with them.
    The claim that the state of California has unfairly targeted Jehovah's Witnesses and "intruded upon matters of church governance."
    Why???
    How does compliance with mandatory child abuse reporting laws conflict with God's laws? It doesn't. This is a fabrication of Watchtower attorneys working for the Governing Body, and it's become quite clear that they feel that compliance with these civil laws will spell disaster for their religion.
    And they might be right.
    If Jehovah's Witnesses did the right thing and complied with the law, they would lose the tight grip of control over their elder bodies in ways which frighten the hell out of them.
    There is a whole lot more to this story as well as the underlying cases involved, but I wanted to let you know what's going on.
    Attorneys for J.W. (the abuse victim) will be filing an opposition to Watchtower's appeal in August, and we should have a decision from the Supreme Court by October on whether they will accept Jehovah's Witnesses appeal for review.
    Stay tuned!!
    https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/chtj2j/watchtower_appeals_to_supreme_court/
     
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