Thinking

…. ah yes ….
…… the “Closed Club”  ….

A greater den of scum and villainy has never been than in the closed club. I do my best to keep them in line, because someone has to do it—I owe it to the old hen—but let me tell you, it’s exhausting.

I've known young people who committed suicide after being shunned/disfellowshipped. I was one of those who tried to kill himself after being disassociated several years ago. I've talked with dozens of young disfellowshipped ones. In the past 30 years I've talked with parents of children who committed suicide due to being disfellowshipped. I wanted to share this....
How are they going to address the parents of young people that committed suicide after being disfellowshipped or marked? IMO the parent should sue the governing body for emotional manipulation and emotional distress for forcing them to cut off their own children, even grown children. That includes children who died from their parents refusing blood transfusions, knowing they could be disfellowshipped or shunned or marked for doing so. Or the thousands of x'jws who fell into chemical addictions, dying due to chemical addictions!!!! To deal with the loss of their entire social structure!!!!!!!? And the worse...the tens of thousands of disfellowshipped/disassociated/marked ones who left God all together, like I once did?   Being allowed to grow a beard, or women being allowed to wear pants during services, so fucking what!!!! That's nice, I've never come across someone killing themselves because they couldn't grow a beard or wear pants. The Governing Body needs to shell out a major apology for their previous stance on disfellowshipping, and I mean a huge fucking apology!!!! The blood of others is not soley on the governing bodies hands, but on the hands of the rank and file who did everything the governing body told them to do. Which was to totally isolate those young people from their social network, even their parents.   Sorry jw's, PIMI, it's too late for these changes, you are already blood guilty, you deserve to go to hell, with your governing body.

…. could be worse …. could be Hillary Clinton in a pants suit ….

It’s not about you, Georgie ……

For example, secondhand information, such as what a past poster heard but did not witness regarding child abuse, may be considered acceptable by uninformed individuals. However, it falls short in terms of reliability even for secular authorities. Personally, I believe that gossip should not be treated as a trustworthy source unless it is substantiated by solid evidence.
Therefore, unless you were present to witness the instance of a young person taking their own life due to religious shunning, then you should provide evidence.
However, the information provided by Matthew, Pudgy's sock puppet, is completely meaningless. You must provide conclusive evidence disproving the existence of any other mitigating factors associated with the suicide, such as mental illness.
Unless you are a doctor or psychiatrist, I don't believe anyone here is qualified to give a professional opinion.
Therefore, discussing the disfellowship policy does not provide a clear basis for shunning that meets the criteria for being a direct cause of suicide that has been proven in a court of law. It should not be assumed by individuals identifying as JWs. Making baseless accusations can lead to being disfellowshipped, so it might be wise to keep one's thoughts to oneself.

I find this intriguing from the standpoint of someone questioning their beliefs. Could you please share a compelling instance where a young person tragically took their own life as a result of being shunned, rather than being overwhelmed by the isolation imposed on them by society?
Hence, should those individuals who exaggerate and falsely profess nonsensical ideologies not be deserving of eternal damnation?
Should society be condemned to eternal punishment by a self-proclaimed Christian for the tragic suicides resulting from bullying at school?
https://journalistsresource.org/education/bullying-teen-suicide-social-media-research/
Understanding the distinction regarding an imbalanced state of mind is crucial. It is imperative to acquire the knowledge of comprehending such a concept.
I also know of someone who took their own life after being rejected by society for being a member of the LGBTQ community. The term "shunning" should not be misused to promote harmful behavior, particularly when it comes from a religious individual.

The submerged iceberg, of which it is tempting to focus on the visible tip, is the Norwegian judge’s words that he finds it ‘reasonable that boyfriends and girlfriends are going to have sex with one another.’ Make no mistake that if he didn’t find it ‘reasonable,’ as previous generations have not, he would be more amenable to the Witnesses’ discipline. He might still find it severe, but he would not likely find it illegal.
But he has acquiesced to a new norm like that of my extended family, in which a 14-year-old daughter dates a 16-year-old who has his drivers’ license. As long as they are home by 9 PM, not a problem. ‘He’s a good kid,’ they say of him. And, as kids go, he probably is.  But, forget about Bible principles.
The challenge, which can be expected to increase, is to navigate Jehovah’s organization amidst a world that disdains the values it stand for, that considers Bible morality backwards and even harmful, and that begins to concoct laws against it.
Even Matthew raises no objection to this. Maybe he doesn’t know of the judge’s words. Maybe he knows but blows them off as nothing, joining the church world insistent upon retaining the label ‘Christian’ but not so insistent upon the conduct that identifies a person as one, being more outraged over discipline than the immoral conduct that calls for it.
Suicide is bad, so it is right if the Christian organization takes it seriously, modifying procedures, perhaps partly for that reason. It’s all good and welcome. Be proactive as you can. Many things done can be done differently. Many things can be tweaked to take into account changing times. It appears this is happening.
But it should also be kept in mind that suicide is all the rage among the young today. They have inherited an impossible world from older generations (who also do not apologize for it) and many of them break under the strain.
When my wife and I visited Ithaca, we passed a bridge on which obscenities were painted about Cornell, presumably due to the suicides that take place, some by jumping off that bridge. Ought Cornell be held liable for putting so much pressure upon young people? Or ought their parents be held liable, for pressuring the importance of ‘success’ at all costs? Anyone apologize for handing them such a world?
Or what of this young person crying because she works at a good job and cannot afford rent. Just like that, it goes up by $900 in a month and she can no longer afford to eat.. Anyone apologize to her over that?
https://www.dailydot.com/news/woman-has-to-cut-back-on-eating/
Or adults create AI, and just like that, it is used against children, deep-faking them naked and in sexual acts. No apologies there, either. Schools themselves are nightmares to attend, at least in the U.S, where bullying without consequence runs rampant, and yet students are sentenced into such unsafe places—it’s not as though they can opt out. Any apologies? Not only is there not, but there is a steady stream of people with degrees telling of how they are about to turn the situation around, just as they were 40 years ago.
It is a pretty lengthy list of how today’s world has absolutely failed its young people, and many of them take their lives over it.
As ‘repressive’ as some Witness families might be, as much as some might view them as ‘hemming people in,’ they are also sources of support and stability. You do not want to cut yourself off from your family. But the young today are encouraged to do just that, cut themselves off from where there is a safety net to leap to where there is not. All a young person must do is abide by family rules, while they are living with family, and they are fine. Previous generations, for the most part, have recognized and supported this basic fact of human life. The present one does not, and is being encouraged to not recognize and recognize  it by people who will not be there to break  a young person’s fall should they take one.
As much as I hear that Jehovah’s Witnesses are ‘insular,’ they can’t hold a candle to the insularity of those who oppose them. To hear the latter carry on, you would think the present world is a paradise and all would know it were it not for ‘scare’ tactics of the Witnesses. 
 

One thing I have learned … Judges and Government officials msy be wrong, but THEY have the bayonets.
Some things just have to be endured.

This idea that Satan can put Jews in power implies that God doesn't want Jews in power. But that would also imply that God only wants "Christians" including Hitler, Biden, Pol Pot, Chiang Kai-Shek, etc. 

It appears to me that this is a key aspect of the 2030 initiative ideology. While the Rothschilds were indeed influential individuals who were able to sway governments, much like present-day billionaires, the true impetus for change stems from the omnipotent forces (Satan) shaping our world. In this case, there is a false God of this world.
However, what drives action within a political framework? Power!
What is unfolding before our eyes in today's world? The relentless struggle for power. The overwhelming tide of people rising. We cannot underestimate the direct and sinister influence of Satan in all of this.
However, it is up to individuals to decide how they choose to worship God. Satanism, as a form of religion, cannot be regarded as a true religion. Consequently, just as ancient practices of child sacrifice had a place in God's world, such sacrifices would never be accepted by the True God of our universe.
Despite the promising 2030 initiative for those involved, it is unfortunately disintegrating due to the actions of certain individuals in positions of authority. A recent incident serves as a glaring example, involving a conflict between peaceful Muslims and a Jewish representative that unfolded just this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/11/us-delegation-saudi-arabia-kippah?ref=upstract.com
Saudi Arabia was among the countries that agreed to the initiative signed by approximately 179 nations in or around 1994. However, this initiative is now being undermined by the devil himself, who is sowing discord among the delegates due to the ongoing Jewish-Hamas (Palestine) conflict. Fostering antisemitism.
What kind of sacrifice does Satan accept with the death of babies and children in places like Gaza, Ukraine, and other conflicts around the world, whether in the past or present, that God wouldn't?
Whatever personal experiences we may have had with well-known individuals, true Christians understand that current events were foretold long ago, and nothing can prevent them from unfolding. What we are witnessing is the result of Satan's wrath upon humanity, as was predicted.
A true religion will not involve itself in the politics of this world, as it is aware of the many detrimental factors associated with such engagement. It understands the true intentions of Satan for this world and wisely chooses to stay unaffected by them.

I downvoted you, which I seldom do so it behooves me to give an explanation.
You are so clueless it’s embarrassing to read your posts!
It is NOT considered “cruel and unusual punishment” to execute people for crimes. It is considered “cruel and unusual punishment” to deny communications and citizenship to anyone, no matter how heinous they break the rules.  
Humans need the connections to other humans, same as food, water and air. Take Vitamin C out of a human’s diet and he WILL DIE , slowly and very painfully, his body disintegrating and falling apart. 
The same with disfellowshipping for matters that are not true, clear and present, REAL, emergencies.
That’s why Jesus gave instructions in Matthew 18 EXACTLY how to do it.
Do JWs do it that way?
… not even close.
The problem is … historically, organized religions and their minions LOVE a witch hunt.

I think it was around 2018 when I read a news report about a meeting of ex-JWs and non-JW relatives of Witnesses. They met somewhere around Seattle. Several of the attendees supposedly gave reports of suicides among disfellowshipped and shunned teenagers. (And I think there were cases of suicides among those who had suffered sexual abuse either in the congregation or from Witness parents.)
I'm sure you are right that it was more than just the shunning that drove them to suicide, but they definitely were presenting a pattern that indicated shunning as a key factor. It was likely exaggerated somewhat, but the report indicated that shunning and suicide became kind of a theme, and there were about a dozen such cases mentioned. It's probably a serious enough problem that the WTS is right now trying to address this issue by making changes to the process of disfellowshipping teenagers.

You're welcome.
Indeed, you make a valid point. While I primarily focus on studying historical events rather than delving into astronomical calculations, it is worth noting the distinction between Ancient Babylon and present-day Baghdad, as well as their proximity to ancient Uruk. These disparities cannot be overlooked. Furthermore, we cannot definitively assert that the astronomical tablets were observed specifically from Babylon, as none of us can travel back in time to confirm this. Isn't it ironic? Nevertheless, I do comprehend your perspective regarding the significance of finger lengths in these matters.

I am particularly interested in factual history, such as the information provided by good old Gerard Gertoux in his notes on this specific timeframe.
"Jehoiachin (exile) 587 - 26 Apries 588-570." p56
In history, it is recorded that in the same year, Wahibre besieged (attacked) Tyre and Sidon. Therefore, I am confident that highlighting 588 BC on the valuable timepiece, which refers to the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar mentioned in the tablet from 569/8 BC, is accurate. By retracing the events, I can confirm the authenticity of this significant event.
Significantly, King Jehoiachin was released from prison by a Babylonian king who was sympathetic to the Jewish people. This event marked the conclusion of the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem, although the desolation would continue for another 50-year jubilee cycle. Consequently, it would take the Jewish nation a "score" and a "jubilee" to return home.
Please feel free to reach out if you require any additional astronomical assistance. I have a vast collection of around a hundred book references at my disposal.
 
 

Just an aside, but I find it curious that Daniel is praying about the 70 years and he is told that the greater fulfillment is not just 70 years but 70 WEEKS of years. But that 70 weeks is broken up into two pieces. A 49-year piece and a 434-year piece. 
(Daniel 9:24, 25) . . .“There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.  You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.
I don't read too much into it, but there are some commentators who believe that this is a direct reference to the fact that Daniel recognized the Persians were ruling now, and the Temple had now been destroyed for 49 years (587 BCE to 538 BCE). The 62 weeks or 434 years could start counting after the completion of the rebuilding with a public square and a moat. 
Notice that the Insight book doesn't have anything more than conjecture about the 7 weeks:
*** dp chap. 11 p. 191 par. 21 The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed ***
The work was evidently completed to the extent necessary by about 406 B.C.E.—within the “seven weeks,” or 49 years. (Daniel 9:25) A period of 62 weeks, or 434 years, would follow.
Of course, starting from some time within the reign of Artaxerxes for the 434, (443 BCE?) plus the final 7 year week, this way of splitting the numbers can, at best, only reach about as far as the birth of the Messiah 2BCE/4BCE, not his arrival at baptism.
 
But then again, that might explain Herod's agitation and the magi looking for signs about that time.
Then again, someone could apply those 49 years to the completion of Herod's Temple:
(John 2:20) . . .“This temple was built in 46 years (from 18 BCE), and will you raise it up in three days?” 
But then again, what about those missing 3 years?
This is not a real suggestion below (for those 49-46=3 years), but, just for fun, it just shows that the possibilities are endless when you begin playing with chronology and "the mysterious numbers of the Jewish Temple." 
(Revelation 11:1-4) . . .And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it.  But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.  I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.
 

Well … that clears THAT up! (???????)

Millions of lobsters worldwide are cheering.

A high academic standard, yes. He graduated from MIT. But he left a trail of insults on this forum that would make a sailor blush. And that was mostly in response to foolish goading from @scholar JWand back and forth escalations of insults between him and [username="César Chávez"], it's not like people were generally cursing at him and he was just responding in kind. 
"César Chávez" is still with us here by the way, under different user names. (For those who care, that apparently also includes the JW Closed Club, so far just as an auditor, not a participant.)

AlanF commented quite often on this forum when he was alive. He and @scholar JW had a history going back for many years —decades—according to scholar JW. Same with Ann O’maly whom scholar JW also appeared to have communicated with for many past years. 
I hated AlanF’s position on evolution and complete dismissal of much of Genesis but I appreciated that both he and Ann O’maly were much more knowledgeable about neo-Babylonian chronology that I am. By a long shot. They both corrected me publicly with good evidence on several mistakes I made here while learning the topic. I always appreciate corrections by anyone, even a "public reproof." 

Yeah, just like the prodigal son’s dad ran a broken home. If he hadn’t, junior would have never departed. 
I dunno. You mean that every obnoxious troll on the internet is underneath it all a gentle misunderstood soul? Haven’t you spoken disparagingly of George88 or some of his personas? Alan behaved worse than he. 
I’ll concede that all I know of the man is the persona he chose to display here. I think what really set me off is not that he came after me, but that he also laid into Arauna and Thinking for doing no more than defending the faith.

These days, tortured souls are a dime a dozen. Even I am that way. And, not to complain, but I don’t think I’m getting anywhere near the love here that I need.
 
Okay, now I see the reason for Aruana’s, Thinking’s and my trouble with Alan. We ‘refused to learn.’ That would make anyone furious.

There are some magnificent threads buried within. Probably, just typing ‘AlanF’ into the search box will bring up a few.
The trouble is, if you held to faith, you were one of those ‘stupid people’ to him. I detest these people who think they can muscle through on brainpower alone. “By their fruits you will know them,” holds no sway with them. Not saying anything of him personally, but you would think people would assess critical thinking by the world it has collectively produced. It has been the chief export of universities for some time now, and few world leaders are not university-equipped. 
Witnesses, on the other hand, though not without the minor mishaps stemming from being ‘earthen vessels,’ have achieved a peacefulness, unity, cohesiveness, that the world can only dream of. Pew Research says their membership (in the U.S.) is almost exactly 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic, with about 5% Asian thrown in. Translation: They have solved racism, the issue that is ripping this world apart, despite its educational advantage.
Brotherly love is a concept that works, but it does not stand well up to ‘reason,’ especially reason with evolution at its root. It is not a concept that lends itself well to ‘proof.’ The truths that are declared ‘self-evident,’ that ‘all men are created equal,’ are not at all self-evident to those evolution-based. What is self-evident to them is the 2001 Space Odyssey humanoid discovering he can beat the snot out of his competitor with a leg bone, whereupon he throws it into the air and out comes this spacecraft to Jupiter. 

Never in my life had I encountered a more unpleasant person than AlanF. He was fine if you acquiesced to him . . . but if you disagreed to any significant degree, he would launch incredible streams of non-stop insults. My greatest fear was that his cherished evolution teachings might be correct and that he was the end result. Without specifically naming him, (which would be mean) ‘In the Last of the Last Days’ tells of a voracious opponent whose headstone no doubt calls the cemetery caretaker a moron for supposing the surrounding flowers are creations of God. 
I didn’t like him very much.

Imagine a time when people no longer treat one another like animals. I know, it’s hard to fathom. After all, religion herself is the cause for many wars, causing strife and hatred that permeates mankind, but not for much longer. These manifestations will soon reveal themselves all over the world and is also known as the revealing of the Son of Man. This phase is the third and final phase known as the revelation phase of the Presence of Christ.
One would think that all of mankind would welcome such a wonderful environment but the majority of earth’s inhabitants will actually reject and fight against this revelation tooth and nail, for mankind’s inhabitants as a whole have become wicked and godless. We read:
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) After reading this scripture, you may have gained discernment that we could already have come into this period of critical times and you will have assumed correctly. This time period has been prophesied about in the Bible to give righteous ones a heads up. This time period is also called a time of distress, a time of anxiety, the last days, or the last days of wickedness. We entered this time period in 1914 and we were warned about it from faithful men. One of those Biblical accounts is (Daniel 12:1) which reads:
During that time Michael will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. Notice this period is a time of distress which means this period does not go on and on with the no end to them. They in fact do come and will come to an end. But a work would need to be done first. A warning and a witness would need to be given out on a global basis. A heads up as you will. “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
The end that comes about is not the end of the earth, but rather then end of wickedness. This system of things is on its way out! Jesus Christ calmly stated, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the Presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:36-37)
If you appreciated this witness about the Good News about God’s Kingdom, then I ask you to fill out this form for a Free Bible Study. The scriptures state, “And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1)
That time is Now, the book which is also known as the Book of Life is the Bible. We invite you and your family to come into our interior rooms until the denunciation passes as the days of wickedness come to their end. Get the Answers you seek to keep on living into Christ Millennial Reign.
2034 and its significance…

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