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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Witness, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these scriptures: Exodus 3: 1 - 4 Was it God's voice or the angel conveying God's words? Compare Exodus 14: 19; 23: 20; 33: 2 Numbers 20: 14 - 17 Was it God that brought Israel out of Egypt or was it an angel? Also, have you read Acts 7: 30 - 38? Acts 7: 30 “After 40 years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Siʹnai in the flame of a burning thornbush. 31 When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice was heard: 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Moses started trembling and did not dare to investigate further. 33 Jehovah said to him: ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have certainly seen the oppression of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and I have come down to rescue them. Now come, I will send you off to Egypt.’ 35 This same Moses whom they had disowned, saying: ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’ is the very one God sent as both ruler and deliverer by means of the angel who appeared to him in the thornbush. 36 This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in Egypt and at the Red Sea and in the wilderness for 40 years. 37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’ 38 This is the one who came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Siʹnai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give us. So, was it God's voice that Moses heard or was it God's word conveyed by an angel? Very interested in your answer here. Edit: Just wondering, do either of you, Witness or Holly consider yourself inspired or moved by holy spirit?

There are lots of straws in your hat, and you are picking at all of them I can answer you by asking questions too, without of course answering the questions. We can play this silly game all day long, but if we have nothing to agree on, then we should agree to disagree, unless of course you want stay on this merry go round. Do you believe Moses was God's spokesperson or in my native language mouthpiece? Just curious, because if you can accept Moses you can accept the "slave" along with all it's imperfections, just like Moses. If you don't that Moses was God's mouthpiece who are you, in fact, disrespecting? Whom do you think the child of Revelation 12 is, or what :)?

You said it was a defeat to "agree to disagree" this implies that one is right and the other was not, as it would only be a defeat if the matter was one of right or wrong. God commissions his people to search his word themselves and he dignifies them by allowing them to draw conclusions based on the available evidence. Hence, the "light" or understanding gets brighter with time. If you read Daniel 12, in the final part of the days men would rove about or search in God's word and such knowledge would abound. There have been great increases in Bible knowledge in the last 100 years, understanding in Bible languages, new documents being found, timing of events and as a result better translations have been produced which more accurately render verse that in the past have been difficult to translate. I believe There are a number of times that the Bible shows that Jehovah "regretted" and subsequently changed his mind about some action. One example is the case of Jonah and the Ninevites. God first intended to destroy them. But when they showed repentance he was willing to change his view of the Ninevites. Another example is that of the Judges. When the people would drift into apostasy, God's anger would blaze against them. Judges 2: 18 has the phrase "moved with pity". The footnote reads "felt regret". To regret is to no longer think the same way about a matter. In other words, to change one's mind. Today, when Jehovah deals with us individually he does something similar. When we show repentance for some sin we have committed he is willing to forgive based on the value of Jesus' life. Otherwise none of us could stand. This is a forum, it is a place where people should feel free to express their views. I agree, you can keep your viewpoint, just as I. I haven't come into this trying to convert anyone. I find it a great source of information and resources, though some may disagree. I think, there's a difference between having an opinion and a personal attack. But if that should ever happen we all have the choice to report any offending posts to let the Mods deal with. I find that on other forums, Bible discussions descend into attacking each other easily. It'd be great if we could remain civil. Saying that you are simply going off the Bible is a little bit like saying the other person is wrong lol. The problem with saying that is that if the other person also says they are going off the Bible then the two must inherently be in agreement, one mind and one thought. We are not in agreement on all matters. The issue really is, what have each person "missed"? With the knowledge that you have of the Bible, what is it that you have missed that I have pointed out? Alternatively, with the information that I may have, what have I missed? For example, if I have not read the whole Bible maybe I missed a part that had something different to say on a matter I had come to understand one way. I have shown you two or three instances that you may not have thought of. Judges, Jonah and forgiveness of sins today. If you are familiar with scripture there should be no need to quote or cite verses, you would recognize where I have quoted scripture. Thanks for posting, I'm goign to answer one other person then, I'll be back later if you want to keep talking.

Thanks for your opinion, but I disagree with you thoroughly. This is not about being right, it's about maintaining the peace and dignity of all concerned. If you're only interested in arguing you have missed Paul's words on not getting into foolish disputes and arguments about words.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. The OP is about what happens when there is a change in understanding after your baptism. You are implying that you were tricked somehow. However, if you had been studying for several months you would've learned that changes happen, especially if you prepared for your studies well. That way when you were baptized you wouldn't be under any illusion as to what may happen after your baptism. But let;s just say you feel tricked or fooled what is the common reply. It is 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13 and Proverbs 4: 18 they are used hand in hand. But let's go further and say, you don't understand what either of those texts have to do with changes after baptism. The next thread of thinking, is to take you through history from Adam to present day showing you all the adjustments that took place leading down to Jesus then on to our day. I've touched on some of those things. But personally, it is so clear to me that adjustments in thinking have been happening since the beginning it is irrefutable, but maybe you don't believe the taking away of the kingdom from the Jews and to spiritual Israel was a significant adjustment. Did the apostles complain? Saying "this is not what I was baptized into." Did they look for excuses to disregard every explanation given or did they accept each adjustment? When they met with the older men of Jerusalem and the result was Acts 15: 28, 29, then it was conveyed to the existing congregations, do you think that was from men or God? I'm interested in your answer to that.

Holly, I feel like I'm regurgitating over and over again. I thought that by quoting the text about "babes" would be enough to explain itself. I;m going to simplify dramatically and just use very plain language. I hope you don't mind: To explain how the scriptures apply to changes we've made since I was baptized My baptism has no bearing on the changes made by the organization. The changes would have occurred whether I became a witness or not 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13 demonstrates that gifts like knowlegde, prophesying and tongues would one day cease. These gifts were temporary things in order to grow the early congregation. Why do I consider what you've posted as being a worse case scenario? I consider you statements as only focusing on the faults of the Governing Body. You have not shown a balanced unbiased approach Paul speaking about the growth of humans from babies to adults I agree Paul was not speaking about literal Babies, he was using similitude to demonstrate spiritual growth, which involves adjustments This time and others he was involved in adjustments in thinking: For example, uncircumcision became allowed, previously not allowed When does the baby analogy apply That is correct, according to current thinking, in the 1870's God's people were still a work in progress and will be until the end of the thousand year reign (wt 92 7/15 Pg 30) I am willing to accept what they tell me My relationship is with Jehovah first, I care for this firstly by Bible reading and study. It is inferred that the organization is an extension of Jehovah's sovereignty his visible representative such as were the kings of Israel. Hence, if ever the king was to take the nation into apostasy, I must still respect the anointed one of Jehovah, just as David did Saul. It does not mean that I have to take part in anything that would affect my relationship with Jehovah.

I disagree with your tendency to seek the worst case scenario and go to one extreme or another. The text is quite clear that what you teach a baby is not the same thing as what you know as an adult. I think you know that deep down. A baby is not able to walk immediately is it? It is not able to speak immediately is it? It cannot think or reason like an adult can it? I wonder if you are a mother, if so does your child know all of your intentions and plans for them? I think understanding this would help an honest hearted person. But solid food only belongs to mature people doesn't it? I am not an elder, nor am I anything special in the congregation, but I took the rafter out of my own eye a long time ago, so I think I have freeness to speak on this matter.

Holly, I wonder what you hope to achieve. When you answered so quickly without giving yourself time to think about your reply, I knew for certain, that you are not interested in actually changing you position. But like I said and I hope you are willing to at least agree to disagree. I don't hope to change you. But I would like to hear your opinion of Pauls statements. What was Paul saying, if not that changes should be expected?

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love. These verses show that not only would changes happen but that Paul may have even expected them in his lifetime. We know now that he did not live to see the cessation of miraculous gifts. However, on a number of occasions he even dealt with people in the congregation denying or refusing to accept the changes from Judaism to Christianity - accepting physical uncircumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, the resurrection were some such changes - the meat thing was more about being guided by your conscience rather than a rule. But even greater changes were coming, and Paul may have thought they were coming in his lifetime...

Holly, maybe you've not read 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13? What was it that Paul expected to change? What was the current system in Paul's day? What would eventually happen? Even though some things would change, what would remain unchanged? What then is the identifying mark of Jesus followers? John 13: 35 compare 1 Corinthians 13: 8a By the way, the personality of sheep varies from country to country, not all sheep are naturally meek or obedient. Jesus however, did say that his sheep know his voice. John 10.

I'm a bit late to the table, but would like to share my thoughts using science as an example. One hundred years ago, science knew all they could know at that time. Today, with the exception of some, many of those facts have changed. Were they wrong? No, not for their time. Today, one hundred years later, yes they are. Why? Because there are various limitations in our abilities at any given time. One hundred years ago, we simply did not have the technology to allow us to see more of what's out there. Right now, we understand that we are limited in our abilities to understand some things, but we can predict what we think should be out there with mathematics and physics calculations. Often we have to wait for the technology to become available to test out those "theories". Some things get proven right, others get disproved and so we must move with the evidence. So to with spiritual truths, in one hundred years time, spiritual truths will be quite different to how we know them today. A friend of mine died in 2009. Since then there have been so many changes that if he came back today he'd be mind blown! Now, think back a couple thousand years, the apostle Paul was given a vision of the third heaven. But he could speak about the things he saw. It is quite possible that part of what he saw was the spiritual paradise we enjoy today (according to current thinking) But what we know today, might be "words that cannot be spoken and that are not lawful for a man to say." Like scientists who wait for the technology to be invented to allow them to understand deeper truths about the universe, we too must wait on Jehovah, through Christ, to shine light on things we cannot see - isn't that what having faith is?

Depression is more than just a fleeting downer. We all have downers but they usually short lived. However, when a downer lasts several weeks, it is likely that a person has clinical depression. One's perception of themselves, others and their environment becomes noticeably negative and it can be very hard for a person to lift themselves out of the mire. Telling them to snap out of it, or that it is temporary often has the reverse effect desired. Often just a very patient listening ear is the best treatment that I've found with friends who suffer from depression. What do you think depression is? How do think it should be viewed? What do you think can help a person recover?

Mental health is the term used to describe the norm for society as to thinking and behaviour. When a person is mentally ill they may think or behave in a way that is not a widely accepted way to think or behave and thus concerns may rise regarding their mental health. Do you agree with this definition or do you have one of your own? Please share your views.

Thank you, this is great!

This site is very extensive, but a mental health section would be great, divided into subcategories each of different mental illnesses or a more basic format of major branches.

Kia ora teina, ko Epi toku ingoa. No Aotearoa ahau. Kei te ako ahau ki te korero Maori Translation: Hi sister. My name is Epi. I'm from New Zealand. I'm learning to speak Maori.. Maori is the indigenous language of the Maori people of New Zealand. It is a dying language with only about 150, 000 speakers out of 600,000 Maori. Many can say the words but not necessarily understand them. Although there are many Maori JWs there are yet to be any Maori speaking congregations. Some publications are available in Maori which is great. Maybe one day it will become possible for a Maori speaking congregation!

Hi there, just putting it out there. There are JWs on Sing! by Smule a great karaoke app (psst you dont have to be a great singer lol) Of course they vary in spiritual maturity but we all have great fun singing our favorite songs together. Miitomo is a social app by Nintendo (Think, quirky get to know you app) . If you are a Nintendo fan you know they are generally family friendly. You will need a Facebook or Twiiter account to add friends though. If you would like to add me on Smule or Miitomo you may want to message me privately and I'll give you my twitter handle. Thanks for reading.

Has anyone read it? what are your thoughts? Any criticisms please use references too. Thanks.

I'm aware of the other dates. The current chronology still has Adam's creation at 4026 B.C.E pointing to 1975 as the end of 6,000 years. So today, we still use dates that fit the chronology at the time of 1975. What's missing is that the Septuagint has a differing timeline as you may know, and if that is more accurate than the Masoretic text as some believe after comparing the Dead sea scrolls then it may be a long time yet coming.

Yeah, hmmm. I think it maybe like how we say Jehovah is our saviour and Jesus is his means of saving us. But that both can rightly be called savior, even though Isaiah says only Jehovah is the savior.

Who will call the dead to life? Who is doing the calling in these scriptures? Because my friend thinks Jesus is the one who will do the calling, but thought it was God going by Job and John here: Job 14: 13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me, That you would hide me until your anger passes by, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I will answer you. You will long for the work of your hands. John 5: 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice It would seem that Jehovah does the calling. But please let me know if I have this wrong and please provide references. Thanks.

September 1922 to May 1926 Daniel Prophecy Bk

I look at it this way: Fruit are consequence/s of an action or actions. Works are actions culminating in a result or fruit.

I don't think so, as 1914 C.E would shift the date of Adam's creation back also. We think 1975 was 6,000 years since Adam's creation and still use that chronology for other dates of significant events in Bible history. All other dates would need to be pushed back, wouldn't they? Sorry, Ive never been the greatest mathmetician lol