FelixCA

While there is no precedence in the US to gather data for medical purposes to bloodless surgeries, it appears the Branch Office might have been misled by Spain government officials that would have given them permission to gather such data. https://www.ahrq.gov/research/findings/final-reports/iomracereport/reldata5.html This comes in a time, where the political atmosphere is changing for the worse in Spain. The people might once again ally themselves with the axes of evil as they did before. Whatever the case may be. No true witness should weigh in as to the legality of the intent. It seems one person here has not just become a judge, but also a supporter of the government. Perhaps that kind of thinking is best served in the JW ONLY forum, where people are free to be as judgmental and cynical against the Watchtower as much as they want. Having said that, it appears the rules have changed in Spain. The Health System in Transition (HiT) profile on Spain was co-produced by the European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies, the Spanish Association of Public Health and Health Care Administration (Sociedad Española de Salud Pública y Administración Sanitaria, SESPAS) and the Institute for Health Sciences in Aragón (Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud, I+CS). Spain will have to prove what provision the Watchtower violated under international law.

Then your ignorance perceives you if you think that the Watchtower is like Jesus or is Jesus. Grow up, man! This is not the Catholic faith and the GB are not the POPE that believes he can do no wrong in the eyes of God since the first POPE passed on that precious gift of all that the apostles could do. Except for one thing, be perfect. You’re no better in understanding people than you are about scripture. The last one of Matthew was a lulu! Try 1 Corinthians 2:8-10 New International Version (NIV) 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”[a]— the things God has prepared for those who love him— 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. That’s why you’re in the outside in the dark, bud! By the way, The answer to the riddle is "SATAN" just in case you continue to be clueless. 😁

To the contrary, you are the one hell-bent on proving the Watchtower wrong, by your own misconceived notions. Pretty much similar to Raymond Franz. It almost looks like he was your teacher. Too bad. You are correct, all those apostate sites post nothing more than garbage. The same kind of nonsense that makes its way here. I don’t know this Alan Smith or Allen Smith, whatever you want to call that person. Once again, where is, that person's post? It seems like a person I can agree with. Not so much with people that want to justify their own means of understanding. A good example was offered by an angry person. The claim is, it’s wrong to contend with dates. It can backfire. Didn’t God through his prophets contend with dates? Didn’t John ask Jesus if he was the one spoken about centuries earlier? Matthew 11:3. Did Jesus, tell John, shut up, we are not supposed to speak about time prophecy. It will have a negative impact on the faithful. What does it mean to be faithful? It seems that has been forgotten here. No one, but no one is forcing anyone to remain in the Org. Those that wish to leave are free to do that. Jesus made that pretty darn clear. He wanted to see “righteous” and “faithful” people inherit the earth. He didn’t want creatures of habit like those that defied God when Moses went up the mountain that cost them dearly. That generation would have to die before God would grant the loyal ones access to the promise land. People, usually hate hearing the truth. I’m no different. That’s what it means to become spiritually mature. To leave those past thoughts behind. This is not what is happening here now, is it? Here, there is a festering of disdain. A culture of the Pharisees. The funny thing, you people don’t want to take responsibility for your actions. Galatians 6:5-15 You, people, think it’s just a given to spread gossip and false reports, and still, think somehow god still favors you, because you are part of the Org and that’s enough. Wrong! Ephesians 4:23-24 How else would God allow someone to rethink scripture as intended? By the first century values, when Christendom had but pretty much defiled its existence to promote their own agenda. Did anyone in Jesus time, convince Jesus he shouldn’t do what he set out to do? Then why do some here think they can dictate to the Watchtower what they think the Watchtower should do. This is the kind of mentality that is disturbing to see. So, excuse me if people here don’t understand the significance of prophecy. It’s still no excuse by the lack of understanding to suggest others don’t understand. Those that don’t understand, there is a reason for it. That’s not a good thing. 1 Corinthians 2:14, Matthew 13:13 The only thing I see is a refusal not to accept. Wordplay with the word “prophecy” and “time”. Prophecies exist in scripture. Time prophecy is the given time period within those prophecies. How else would we know when a certain event happened? No reason to separate the two. Continue living normal lives, as millions of Witnesses have done, and continue to do. If there is something you people don’t understand, even though the Org is using the “simplest” of ways to have you understand, aside from having to treat people like children, that would be on the individual, not the Watchtower. That certainly doesn’t mean, the GB is working in the dark. That belongs to those that fail to understand. Therefore, it’s only dangerous to those that don’t understand. COMPARING PROPHETIC SOURCES: PRINCIPLES AND A TEST CASE Martti Nissinen 1. Ancient Near Eastern Prophecy as the Context of Biblical Prophecy 1.1. Prophetic Studies in Transition Increasing knowledge of ancient Near Eastern prophetic texts has during the last couple of decades led to a growing awareness of prophecy in the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah as an integral rather than antagonistic factor in the Near Eastern socio-religious milieu.

Yes, well, to me it’s all meaningless. I can enter an apostate website like JWfacts, or AD1914 and copy that garbage of what these people think the Watchtower is conveying. I, however, do diligent research. It’s been a battle between creationist and evolutionist how long it has taken the earth to form. The evidence proves what the Watchtower indicates between creation by God and the origins of the universe. Evolution, Natural selection, the big bang theory, Science. So, excuse me if I don’t buy into your understanding. Why would the watchtower find it a need to publish the book's creation (ce) and “life-how did it get here? By evolution or by creation” in 1985 after the 1967 book, did man get here by evolution or by creation? *** w85 6/1 p. 7 Adam and Eve—Myth or Reality? *** Wisdom of the World or Wisdom of God? The French Jesuit priest Teilhard de Chardin brought about one of the biggest changes in Catholic thought. He considered evolution to be a gradual climb to a spirit existence. According to his theory, life forms evolve, passing through the animal and human stages, being finally destined to become united at a focal omega point—Christ. Although initially condemned by the church, the theory gained the approval of many Catholic ecclesiastics. However, it was clearly contrary to Scriptural evidence and heaped reproach on God himself, denying the necessity of the ransom for humans to recover perfect human life. Recoiling from these conclusions are the "scientific creationists." But their interpretation of the Genesis creation account has led them to claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that the six "day’s allowed in Genesis for creation were each only 24 hours long. But does such an idea accurately represent what the Bible is saying? Was the earth, and all its life forms, created in just six literal days? Or is there a reasonable alternative? AS WITH other things that are misrepresented or misunderstood, the first chapter of the Bible deserves at least a fair hearing. The need is to investigate and determine whether it harmonizes with known facts, not to mold it to fit some theoretical framework. Also to be remembered, the Genesis account was not written to show the "how" of creation…The first part of Genesis indicates that the earth could have existed for billions of years before the first Genesis "day," though it does not say for how long. However, it does describe what earth's condition was just before that first "day" began:” Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with the Watchtower publications in order to find other avenues to criticize the Org, by your personal perception on how you think the Org is wrong and only you are right. So, far, you have TTH, comfortmypeople, JTR, Butler, Srecko, Anna holding on to every fiber of your words and false demonstrations. Remember, TTH believes you’re an excellent writer. Such people do tend to make believers of those that are weak minded. So, the only ones living under a rock are those that want to believe in conspiracies.

Butler, Ah! Yes, the voice of reason. Don’t worry Butler. I won’t continue a meaningless debate. One, of many speculations made by Raymond Franz that are being accepted by spiritually weak people. A good research point would be with Pastor Russell’s Photo-Drama. I don’t know if the Bible Students finished the restoration or the Watchtower for all that matter. But the last time I looked, the Bible students did “some” restoration in 1992-93. The original nitrate films are in such a state that they cannot be projected normally and video-taped. Consequently, they had to be copied, one frame at a time, manually, onto 16mm movie film (Kodachrome). The resultant copy was used in the production of the video-tape of the Photo- Drama. The following listing details the contents of the video tapes of the Photo-Drama of Creation which were assembled between November, 1992 and March 6, 1993. Several of the films have not passed through my hands yet (if they exist at all), therefore, this production is not the complete eight hour production. There are more music records, which go along with films; however, since the films which these records support are missing, the records are not included. It’s a shame if the whole presentation can’t be restored. This just proves, maybe there is something more to the Photo-Drama than meets the eye. The point would be, there were different factions within the Bible Student association. Just like each congregation functioned independently from the Tower. Do some Bible Students of today support Adventism, Yes they do. Are there some Bible Students that still have creationist views? Yes, there are. CREATION—-Mosaic Account. Q197:1 QUESTION (1911)—1—Do you believe in the Mosaic account of creation? ANSWER—We believe the divine revelation, and if we had no Bible we think it would be proper to look for one. We could not imagine that a great loving Creator would have a plan for his creatures, bring them into existence, and not provide some revelation respecting his will regarding them. So that even when I had thrown away my Bible, when I did not know its value, I got to looking for a Bible somewhere and I searched amongst all the heathen religions to see if I could find one any better than the one I had thrown away, and I found nothing nearly as rational, nearly as reasonable, as the Bible when I understood it. We believe its account of creation is the only authorized account At a first glance. It seems Russell was a creationist. That he believed the account of Genesis was made up in 6 days and on the 7th day God rested were accomplished in 7000 years. The problem there, what was Russell actually saying. He was using the same starting point from, CREATION of ADAM to 1873AD to mark the end of the 6th day. Using the 1000 year computation. The same inference depicted by the Watchtower for 1975. So, was Pastor Russell “really” saying creation was made in 6000 years? Was he referring, each creative day was 7000 years, which would mean, Genesis creation took 42,000 years or was he emphasizing man’s existence. The First Day or Epoch "Let there be light! and there was light." Thus, briefly, is summed up the result of the 7,000 years, styled the First Day. Not that God's Word would not have been sufficient for any miracle, but because He prefers to work out His glorious designs along natural lines.-Genesis 1:3… We follow the theory that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7x7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch. STUDY II BIBLE CHRONOLOGY Chronology Necessary to an Understanding of Prophecy—Indispensable Data Furnished in the Bible—From the Creation of Adam to A.D. 1873 was Six Thousand Years—A Statement of Bible Chronology in Great Periods—Its Examination in Detail—From Creation to the Day the Flood was Dried Up—To the Abrahamic Covenant—To the Giving of the Law—To the Division of Canaan among the Tribes—The Period of the Judges—The Period of the Kings—The Period of the Desolation—To A.D. 1873—Wherein this Chronology Differs from that of Bishop Usher, Noted in our English Bibles—The True Date of our Lord's Birth. Therefore, can people honestly claim, Pastor Russell, overshadowed creation by suggesting creation took 6000 years as creationist do, or was he’s understanding an explanation that reflects after creation to man’s existence? People that argue the Bible Student era, fail in two points. First, not fully grasping what the intent was, and second, to make The Bible Student era in its infant understanding and claim it’s still accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses. JW’s understand the creative day can have an infinite number, not 49,000 years. It’s disingenuous and false to think, Russell was a creationist by referring to the Genesis account of creation as 6000 years. Therefore, NO! today’s Watchtower has not erred in any of the claims made. These separate issues are still being combined as usual. I left the word "week" up for scrutiny, just in case more wordplay is given.

That’s where I got it from. I guess that makes me space merchant for using “that being said” or that said. You are definitely showing signs of a mental breakdown. Just don’t jump off the tower to have people blame the Watchtower for your instability. Especially when you first suggest it doesn’t matter, then it does matter. Coherency is lacking. Spend time with Butler, just maybe he can knock some of the realism back into your life. But don’t worry, I don’t buy into anything you have posted as fact. It’s your perception of fact. It’s the perception of what some will agree with you, is fact. The Watchtower published a book of errors to appease those harden critics that believe as you do. It is demonstrating how a publication can be taken out of context, as it's done here with the many distortions. The “Clarification of Our Beliefs” Does not constitute what you are offering. THE PURPOSE OF THIS PUBLICATION “Jehovah God urges his people to “keep searching” for understanding and discernment as though they were looking for “hidden treasures.” (Prov. 2: 1-5) This means that we need to exert ourselves in searching for answers to our Bible questions and in finding help for our personal concerns in life. This Research Guide for Jehovah’s Witnesses is designed to assist you in your search.” Therefore, the only thing dangerous and un-Christian is people like yourself. What did TTH say, in the end, you adhere and support those in charge? That's funny, in what universe. 😁

This is why, I have every right to call you for what you are, and what you stand for. I believe that wasn't always the case here. Maybe it still isn't if I get erased along with my comments. One being, a false perception you have about JW members and free will. God gives us free will as NOT to cause strife or divisions among the brotherhood. Who are you to speak against God's inspired words?

I believe JWinsider is Bible Student bashing. How is that not part of the discussion, when the inference is there? Can I be more specific?

That’s Good Tom. You follow the same pattern of logic as the Watchtower. They don’t specifically state anyone given time. The most they will do is in keeping with “readiness at any hour” by Mark 13:33, and Matthew 24:42. No different from the “the parables of the ten virgins” described by the Bible Student era with Matthew 25:13 Keeping a watch and staying alert with the signs of the times keep faithful servant alert and ready for the unknown. 1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43, Revelation 16:15 Does that mean living in fear, only foolish people would suggest that. Is it referring to our personal lives, or is scripture referring to something other than what might happen within a generation, or is it something more personal like staying awake and being alert with our spirituality. Something that will have a more profound impact even after death. The Watchtower has shown the closeness each generation gets to the conclusion of this old system. Unfavorable people like to think there are hidden messages. That, of course, is concocted in their own minds.

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. Yet you’re a creature of habit to keep bringing up the past as though it has somehow been a mistake. Just keep reminding yourself, it’s a mistake with people like you. It’s your personal opinion that the Watchtower has erred. Yet, you don’t wish to see the flaws in your own interpretation. This is the kind of things that are willing to be accepted by who, Comfortmypeople, JTR? These people would be just in the dark as your explanation. You have made yourself a “messiah” to proclaim your false understanding and your false teaching with anything related to the Watchtower. People that have no business being part of an organization, it clearly feels disdain for. You and your kind have lost the right to criticize the Watchtower as a faithful member. Knowing Butler was an Ex-JW from other sites, proves how far people are willing to go to make others think they have a sad story to tell and have a legitimate grievance, even though it took him long enough to finally come out with the truth. He knows where he stands before God and is not a hypocrite, or at least not now that he admits it. Where does that leave some of you? Especially those that are no longer in good standing with the Org. Therefore, with the presentation offered by JWinsider proves one thing, distortion of facts, just like Raymond, since he is offering no scriptural proof, just overdrawn conclusions on what he personally thinks the Watchtower publications are conveying.

Outta, I always fact check before leaping into an assumption. It’s best not to show people how ignorant we are here, just because the “Herald” has had slight name changes over the century. It doesn’t stop being THE HERALD. Unless you are going to argue like JWinsider with wordplay with the phrase " The Herald of Christ Presence " as it's also known by.

Far from it. I’m busy collecting the Bible Student publications to make it into a DVD library. Halfway there. It’s all on pdf. At least from 1879-2013 The Herald of Christ Presence is the longest running BS magazine, up to 2019 and running. Which I will incorporate as an ongoing publication. Even though they don’t favor the Watchtower doctrine after 1916, they don’t stab each other in the back as some do within the Watchtower Brotherhood. Case in point, having to say, you guys itching for a catfight. Best illustration ever, LOL! 😉

That’s extremely funny Butler. You don’t judge, lol! 😂 What do you think you are doing with the Watchtower GB? Don’t drink and drive. 😋

Good, then your not a creationist. What would the inference be with that nonsense that is taken out of context with the Watchtower 1968? Nothing more than an interpretation of man's existence starting from 4026B.C. that ends in 2975AD. Does this mean God is resting after 1975? Did Jesus not do miracles in the Sabbath? The watchtower started a chart with the phrase "CHART OF DATES FROM MAN’S CREATION TO 7000 A.M." To some, it might be seen as a type o, just like the thousands of type-o's, there are in the Watchtower publications. However, the implied is from Creation that, as you state has an infinite number through man's existence 7000 A.M. Therefore, that doesn't prove a darn thing. There is still a separation to those that don't distort the publication. if the bible students understood to a certain extent, it should have never been that difficult for faithful witnesses. "The length of the day of creation is a question which heretofore no one has been able satisfactorily to answer. Many Bible students think that because Peter says "One day is with the Lord as a thousand years" that each day of creation must be of that duration. Peter however was speaking of the period between the day of creation and the day of the Lord; his language can fully apply, only to that period; and is without doubt very strong inferential proof of the theory that the period from the dominion of the first Adam to that of the second will be six thousand years, to be followed by the "Millennium" or the seventh thousand as the antitype of the Jewish Sabbath." By the way, God rested after creation as cited in Genesis. That doesn't mean God would rest within Man's existence.

I have no idea where some of you learned the truth as prescribed by the Watchtower. I think TTH friend and distorter of the truth to gain favor by such people as Butler isn’t reason enough to twist the publications of the Watchtower to sway an erroneous interpretation by that individual. It appears this person is saying the Watchtower somehow believes the 6 creative days is the same as the 1000 years, is like a day to God in 2 Peter 3:8. Now I can understand someone like TTH would agree with such misguided logic, it would, however, be wrong. Since it’s a totally different understanding. This person JWinsider has gone beyond what the Watchtower is actually saying. Perhaps this individual is stuck in the same ideology as his mentor Raymond. That is another way of attempting to disprove 1975. An erred perception but understandable. Since number 7 is a pivotal number in Biblical determination. Anyone with sense would surmise Peter was symbolically referring to what he meant with a 1000 years. Therefore, the Watchtower used that same symbolism to interject the date 1975 as being the end of the 6th day of man's existence, not creation. That is something the Watchtower does relate to. So, I don’t see where the confusion would be, other than being man-made (conspiracy). *** w75 10/1 p. 581 The End of 6,000 Years of Man-Rule Approaches—What Has Been Accomplished? *** Panoramic Survey This 6,000-year period of man’s existence was early marked by the loss of paradise. Since then, frustrated mankind has tried many kinds of government in an effort to regain at least some form of material paradise. But what has been accomplished? The result is world confusion. Mankind faces ruination, just as Jesus foretold concerning our day: “On the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out . . . while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth.” But God’s Word holds forth hope!—Luke 21:25, 26. For as much as I make every effort to use small common words so people like Butler can understand, I see I continue to fail to communicate, other than those areas where my words are twisted. That’s just dishonest. However, I do find it fascinating and funny how people want to distort the Watchtower’s understanding to coincide with apostate views. For this reason, I will no longer interact with certain people here anymore. Anyone wanting to seek knowledge with wisdom will find the Watchtower has related that message of the 6th day of man's existence, since before 1950. If, 1975 marked the day of rest for God, entering the 7th day. Humanity has proven how the God of this world has indulged himself since then to corrupt this world beyond comparison before 1975. Now are there those that are blind to what is before them?

While those unrighteous will undoubtedly be resurrected by no fault of never knowing God’s purpose and promise? It does not constitute those unrighteous ones after being cleansed and the devil allowed to poison the minds won’t receive a judgment of the second death where there is no resurrection. However, those that have taken from God’s judgment excelled to the second death. Like those that commit blasphemy against gods holy spirit. Have these righteous and unrighteous paid their debt through death? Deuteronomy 6 New International Version (NIV) Love the Lord Your God 6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 2 so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy a long life. 1 Peter 4:15 English Standard Version (ESV) 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV) 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. Therefore, no one has the right to take what God has created. In the case of suicide one's mortal soul.

Would this be before they made an attempt, and asked God for forgiveness (Repented) or is this at a point when a person commits suicide like Judas that made no attempts to reconcile his heinous crime of delivering Jesus to his enemies? Either way, a crime against nature is something that most within Christendom view as wrong. There are circumstances to be sure, even the Watchtower acknowledges that through the Flock book. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_suicide cf: 2282 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to moral law. From the Code of Canon Law and Commentary2 Regarding “Those to Whom Ecclesiastical Funeral Rites Are Denied”: Canon 1184 – §1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites: 1º notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; 2º persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed to the Christian faith; 3º other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful; §2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed. 1 John 4:4 New Living Translation (NLT) 4 But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world. Romans 14:8 New International Version (NIV) 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. Ezekiel 18:4 New International Version (NIV) 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Should those individuals that took matters into their own hands be given the opportunity to be resurrected? That belongs to God to decide, where the crime of sin would stand before God's authority to Judge that was taken away by a selfish act.

Once again, the ignorance of not fully understanding scripture by disfellowshipped individuals that can’t comprehend the bible much less secular laws versus the laws of nature. However, I’m glad the subject has shifted from “threatening” which the Watchtower is speaking of, versus the actual event of suicide. Ephesians 2:11-22 New International Version (NIV) Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands) — 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Romans 8:9 New International Version (NIV) 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Simple abstract of what is a crime against God. Does this mean Judas will return? Only to those that can’t understand one simple rule of God’s law. Exodus 20:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 “You shall not murder. Exodus 20:13 King James Version (KJV) 13 Thou shalt not kill. Romans 13:9 English Standard Version (ESV) 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I wonder why people don’t consider suicide to be a murder only because it’s self-inflicted. What a strange way to excuse one’s behavior and justify our own action. John 8:47 New International Version (NIV) 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Therefore, scripture has many things to say about suicide in an indirect way from a killing point of view. A true Christian would fully understand it.

I believe the only idiocy here is from the lack of understanding what the Watchtower is attempting to convey. It’s an unfortunate pattern from disfellowshipped members to incite, misunderstandings. Especially when it comes by someone that threatens suicide. For one, taking something away from God is an offense upon God. Threatening Suicide is an offense against that person’s mental state. Whatever, mental instability is being dealt with, a person that threatens suicide should be referred to their local mental institution, and have any questionable congregation matters with adequate witnesses continue in absentia. Being suicidal is a determination of the lack of faith this person ever presented to God himself, and is entirely their own. Does an accused person get relief or prevent an action, because they threaten suicide, from secular authority, within criminal or civil jurisprudence? Only ignorant people would think so.

I believe the context you are looking for is found 1 Corinthians 4:5, Philippians 3:13. This, however, can be seen depending on the Bible translation. 1 Corinthians 4:5 New International Version (NIV) 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 1 Corinthians 4:5 the Message (MSG) 5 So don’t get ahead of the Master and jump to conclusions with your judgments before all the evidence is in. When he comes, he will bring out in the open and place in evidence all kinds of things we never even dreamed of—inner motives and purposes and prayers. Only then will any one of us get to hear the “Well done!” of God. Philippians 3:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, It’s interesting the perception you have about apostasy. Is it just afore dawn conclusion it’s only meant to “depart” from one's belief or is it also an action taken by one's heart. James 1:26 ESV If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. Matthew 5:22 ESV But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. As you stated, enough of attempting to justify other people’s behavior by their personal actions. Let's move on.

Unfortunately, Raymond developed the same obscured understanding, when the Watchtower has kept in line with Bible understanding. To some extent, some within Christendom have kept the fundamental understanding of John’s vision, but yet fail to see the reality within John's vision. The same problem Raymond inherited. Therefore, there is no reason for the Watchtower to redefine scripture for the sake of some blind faithful. I asked Raymond how he could see the great crowd celebrating God’s triumphant victory if in that since it was to be literal upon mount Zion, with his updated understanding. The same reason Raymond's books are theologically useless. The misguided understanding comes by not subjecting the vision in its proper context. 144,000 thousand from all the nations is literal, which Jesus presence along with the saints end up being a symbolic endeavor. Those that remain will see Jesus victory and God’s glory in the heavens. *** w15 7/15 p. 19 pars. 17-18 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! *** 17 The resulting war of Armageddon will lead to the magnifying of Jehovah’s holy name. (Rev. 16:16) At that time, all goatlike ones “will depart into everlasting cutting-off.” The earth will finally be cleansed of all wickedness, and the great crowd will pass through the final part of the great tribulation. With all preparations completed, the climax of the book of Revelation, the marriage of the Lamb, can take place. (Rev. 21:1-4) All those surviving on the earth will bask in God’s favor and experience bounteous expressions of his love. What a marriage feast that will be! Do we not look forward to that day with eager expectation?—Read 2 Peter 3:13. 18 With these exciting events ahead of us, what should each of us now be doing? The apostle Peter was inspired to write: “Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah *** w51 12/15 pp. 751-752 pars. 13-14 Release Under Way to the Ends of the Earth *** 13 This joyful prophecy extends now to the Shepherd’s “other sheep” who must be rescued from Babylon before Armageddon. That fact is revealed to us in the Revelation. John the apostle first describes his vision of the gathering and sealing of the 144,000 members of the twelve tribes of spiritual Israel. Then he says: “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” That makes this a Gentile crowd, when compared with the 144,000 spiritual Israelites. But they are where, and what are they doing? “Standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’” 14 Have this “great crowd” come to Zion and submitted to the theocratic rule of Jehovah who is seated on the heavenly throne? They have; for one of the elderly persons identifies the crowd to John and says: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation [this locates their coming between 1919 and Armageddon], and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ii. Great Multitude in Heaven (7:9–17) The saints who are sealed on earth are next seen in heaven (see arguments below) wearing the white robes of triumph and holding palm branches in a reenactment of the Feast of Tabernacles (7:9). Draper (1983: 135–38) develops this imagery, asserting that the scene builds on Zech. 14:1–21. There the feast is connected with the pilgrimage of the Gentiles to Jerusalem in the last days, and here the great multitude have white robes (= the purity of the feast) and palm branches. They celebrate the great victory of God and the Lamb (7:10) and then are joined by the heavenly host, who sing another sevenfold praise reminiscent of chapters 4–5 (7:11–12). This obviously causes John considerable confusion, for one of the celestial elders tells John both the identity and origin (7:13) of those with the white robes: they are the saints who have emerged victorious from the “great tribulation” and have kept themselves pure (7:14). Their reward is to serve God continually as priests (7:15a) and to experience both the Shekinah presence of God and the shepherding activity of the Lamb (7:15b, 17a). As a result they will never again suffer the deprivations of this life (7:16, 17b).[1]

I will not quarrel over the meaning of the words “abusive” versus “obnoxious” since I’m sure its use is meant to justify the wrongful act of another. I would think a witness would welcome a defender from abusive rhetoric like Butler and this person by the name of James Thomas Rook Jr. Therefore, I see this as an unconstructive action on how the Pharisees tried to justify the persecution of Jesus, by removing an obstacle of righteousness from within their populous. No difference here. As you stated, this is something we are all guilty of by being here, including the librarian. Ephesians 5:1 Walk in Love 5, therefore, be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 wLet no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. By your explanation, there was no good reason to have removed Allen, and what is offered, is another form of unjust, justification to retain those that are abusive and against the Watchtower for the sake of revenue. Therefore, apostasy sells. Then it becomes a matter of what side we're on.

I guess that would be the point TOM. What part of apostate views can be accepted? Especially when those same ideas are found in apostate sites. Where can we compromise as not to be seen hypocritical by NOT practicing what we preach? James 1:22–25 How can this marvel be seen different just because JWI explains it the same way as opposers. Where’s the intellectual capability with mistaken loyalty. That in itself makes no ecclesiastical sense. In this case, there is no persuading those that honor God, not to have things seen, contrary to bible standards. Sorry. 😉 But, as you state in such an indirect way. JWI is a power player here and he can say whatever he wants. When he gets challenged by showing those areas of error, people get deleted, which decides where the greater influence lies. I get that, thanks for the warning, I’m on the verge of being erased, by Tom, Anna, JWinsider. That being said, I do agree it’s your world TOM, the slave must conform to the master. 🤔 Now just because I used the phrase, “that being said” doesn’t automatically make me Space Merchant. JWinsider, LOL! 😄

Then your exegesis is flawed. While the Israelites do hold some of the 144,000 saints it is conclusive with Jesus mandate by God’s Holy Spirit that the none-Jew (Gentiles) be included. Therefore, when scripture mentions all the tribes of Israel, it can’t be seen other than the descendants of all the tribes that have gotten mixed throughout the generations. The same flaw found with Raymond. The same ill-conceived argument, when he failed to consider if Jesus was really a Jew because of his Parents. Raymond, just like about everyone doesn’t consider that Jesus was conceived by God’s Holy Spirit, therefore, Jesus was ALL nations (ADAM), not just the heritage of his parents. Was he clinging to his heritage, or was he framing how the Jews and none-Jews would be included? He was the first Christian, meaning the first none-Jew, by a proclamation not by heritage. If we consider Raymond’s argument, with that logic, where does it leave Apostle Paul? To that extent, the 144,000 would have the same proclamation. So, don’t think too much into the heritage that the Jews ultimately lost favor for, defying God so many millennia, ago. Let’s not confuse the original Israelites that Jesus himself claimed to be Matthew 1:1–17 with the Jews in his time. Why else would Paul make a distinction with Romans 11:1 as to the Remnant of Israel? Paul demonstrated that Israel followed God by works instead of faith. That’s why those Jews refused to believe in Jesus and accept him as the Messiah. Had Jesus been born in the time of the Israelites, what do you think would have happened, seeing the son of God present. We’d be having a different conversation if any, however, the makeup of humanity wouldn’t have been this evil. The same outcome present-day Israel is trying to do by building their own righteousness and their own sovereign state (Kingdom). With Raymond’s understanding and yours, the 144,000 are already collected by heritage, way before Jesus was born, and serving as kings and priest, presently. This would leave out all the gentiles and converted Jews to Christianity. That is a distention the Watchtower makes when it refers to the false teachings of Christendom.

I imagine you have dismissed the OPED I submitted, with how many in charge would be frank and open with their responses. Raymond was no different in private. Perhaps his behavior was more polished in public but that would be something people that liked him would only see. There are two sides to a coin, and I got to experience both sides. It really didn’t matter to me, since adults at that times were by and large as you stated “child abuse” oriented by today’s standards, not so much by the signs of that time. Perhaps, this is the problem people have today. They look at every situation with today’s ideology rather than being intellectual and cite with the past. The ecclesiastical determination allows viewing scripture correctly. The understanding of rapture is defined by how God’s Holy Spirit can and will operate. I believe that has been discussed before. The inference that Fred was not involved in translating scripture to other languages when at that time there were around 109 languages if memory serves, is not an adequate characterization of Fred’s abilities. I believe that was something that was challenged in court. While the word “framer” is taken out of context, it was the foundation for best practices for having a judicial system through the congregations, Committee. Which Fred had a fair amount of input on how this committee should be conducted, with various scriptural conditions to support it? Once again, perhaps this is why you hold loyalty to Raymond. In an ecclesiastical level, there was no one more qualified than Fred Franz. This, however, will remain one opinion over another. The “actions” of both subjects speak for themselves. This is why I don’t see how you can effectively contradict arrangements that weren’t part of the Watchtower after 1931. Before that, each congregation ran independently of each other. There was no central system, even though some continue to insist, Bethel was Pastor Russell main hub when it wasn’t. Elders in each congregation had the ability to choose for themselves what was best for their congregants. Another reason why other denominations were welcomed to speak at their church meeting. Traveling preachers. If they had internal matters within local congregations, they would form an Ecclesia body of Elders. “We write to apprise you of the fact that a class of Bible Students of this town have organized as an Ecclesia--24 members --Brother W. Sargent of Halifax officiating; and have voted you in as Pastor and Elder.” “We have heard of cases in which an Elder refused to speak to one of the Congregation because the latter had not voted for him” Dear Brethren: I am writing you this to testify my appreciation of the visit it of dear - Pilgrim Brother Blackburn. I so much enjoyed his sweet fellowship. He seemed so, charged with the Message of love-the Gospel of Glad Tidings­ that there was no room for malevolent backbiting and -slander of fellow-servants . . . Brother Blackburn, in all his discourses, emphasized the possessing of the spirit of -Christ Jesus as the all-important, qualification of Christian character . . . Ali! how can those 'Who have tasted of the heavenly gift be so lacking in the spirit of love as to smite brethren who cannot accept every wild speculation and vagary thrust before them! If those who do such things are thereby manifesting the spirit of the Lord, then I have read the Divine Word in vain. If the Associated Bible Students were offering "strange fire" when they preach the Truth independently of the Society, not only would their efforts come to naught but they themselves would be cut short, even as your article suggests. But, instead of this, the Lord is richly blessing their efforts, and many have come to a knowledge of the Truth and into full relationship with the Lord as a result of these ministries outside of the Society. All in all, we choose to believe what Satan has placed before us. If we refuse to acknowledge that effort, we will always play into his handy work. To distort the facts by distorting the truth. For the Watchtower history, it’s been clear, the framers besides Raymond and former apostates like him, fell in a trap of their own device. Self-destruction by opening their hearts to Satan. Another evidence of this was the writing department in Raymond’s time. Conflict within, what a shame and wasted effort. TTH, it is true some consideration should be given to some that still consider themselves as being part of this organization, but NOT when we are dealing with apostasy. If Raymond resigned and then disfellowshipped for it, how much more slack do you think people here should have? Therefore, you have the same conflict the writing department had back then with misplaced loyalty. But, that's between you and our creator.