Yes, please calm down JWI … and while you are at it, keep it secret behind closed doors … and don’t run with scissors … and don’t track mud across the nice clean agenda!
If "BHC" was a victim herself, and reported to the police, then is not related to the common claim about whether any congregation elders, the Branch, or legal representatives of the Branch, ever voluntarily reported any cases to the police. I guess I see your point, though. It's possible that someone could have found a way to add up any of the 1700+ cases that actually did finally make it to the police even if it was from victims themselves. Yet we already know that many of these reports happened many years after the congregation's and Branch documents showed that they already were aware of some of these cases, and had never reported them. Most of the time, the victims who reported also waited many years before reporting. If this is the case, then I am pretty disgusted with Holly Folk's false implication about the 383. I understand that they (at BitterWinter) want to build a niche audience supportive of "new religions" and their support is often helpful. But it should be done honestly or it isn't worth so much in the long run.
I don't promote these numbers to be true at all. I can only refer to the numbers that show up in the documents that were, for a time, all available on the ARC website. I have no way of verifying if those numbers are correct. I can only verify what numbers I have seen within those documents. The documents could be completely without merit for all I know. I have made it pretty clear that it is NOT my contention that the information is true. It could be a lot worse than these numbers purport, or it could be a lot better. All I have is the data provided.
This is why my focus was on where that claim of "383 cases reported to the police" came up. It wasn't in any early discussions of the ARC. I didn't see it in any ARC documentation. I vaguely recalled a claim that some [more recent] cases really had been reported to the police, but no one made a claim that reports related to the 1.006 perpetrators came from the Witnesses, or from the Branch, or from congregation Elders. From what I can see so far, it was first on Bitterwinter many years after the ARC hearings. I assumed I must have missed that key piece of data, and it would be very useful data to prove bias on the part of the Australian court.
I'm not at all concerned about whether you agree with Jehovah's Witnesses who report 1,006 perpetrators vs those who read it as 1,006 cases of CSA. Your Bitter Winter "Holly Folk" link does not deny that they were "perpetrators." On the link you provided, she says:
Based on this document, the media reported that there had been 1,006 perpetrators who had committed sexual crimes in Australia . . .
I have no stake one way or another as to whether these numbers are correct, and it's a bit late to try to get a retraction from Holly Folk, or to get a retraction from all the JWs and non-JWs who reported those numbers as they read them.
You referred to some contention over the numbers, and you indicated that JWs are making a "false claim" when they read this as 1,006 perpetrators. Against that supposedly "false claim" you said: Yes, the exhibit information is there in my post." And you said: "My exhibit of the ARC document proves my point ."
I looked for that exhibit and found nothing that counters the numbers provided by other Witnesses, or the Branch numbers, or Holly Folk. It turned out that your exhibit had nothing to do with the numbers you claimed were false. It had to do with the timing of certain CSA policies.
The problem here was that much of the data came from a time when the victim really was forced to confront the accused. And there was evidence that it had happened since 1999, too. And the elders testifying at the ARC didn't help when they wouldn't reject the old policy.
And of course, a similar problem happened when the elders, even Bro. Jackson himself wouldn't completely reject the court's understanding of how we implement the two-witness policy.
The thing is, it never was 1,006 cases [instances]. It was 1,006 perpetrators, per the numbers the Watchtower Branch provided to the ARC. It was always at least 1,732 cases, per the numbers the Watchtower Branch provided to the ARC. 1,006 "cases" was just a very common sloppy reading of the numbers. I saw it being misreported that way on the first day of the ARC hearings. Only a few people corrected it. I recalled the number vaguely because when I saw people making the correction, I looked it up myself to make sure it was right before commenting on it.
Although I have looked at my notes, I still haven't got out my old computer with the files (and I don't plan to for at least a week). But I did find a site (unfortunately it is generally an anti-JW site) and that site has numbers that pretty much match all my own notes from MS-OneNote. I won't link to it, but you could look up any of the lines in Google and would probably find it easily:
I don't know if every statement is true. I don't even know if the Watchtower Branch provided all the data. (In fact, I heard from the Australian brother that several Witnesses were already suspicious when some notorious cases were missing from the Gold Coast, Queensland area.) At any rate, here is their summary of the ARC data that generally matched my own notes taken directly from the ARC data:
There was at least 1732 children who were sexually abused. Over 650 of those children were abused by family members.
At least 170 of the children sexually abused were under the age of 5.
There was 1006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse within the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Of that number, 15 were women.
579 of the alleged abusers confessed to their crime(s). 306 did not. Of the remaining 121, it’s unclear whether they confessed or not.
95 of the alleged child abusers were not Jehovah’s Witnesses when they committed their first sexual abuse.
65 of the alleged child abusers were ministerial servants; 42 were elders; 8 were pioneers; and 1 was a circuit overseer.
At least 56 ministerial servants and 27 elders were deleted from their roles. 6 elders and 2 ministerial servants were re-appointed to their roles.
Over 33 ministerial servants, 13 elders and 1 pioneer were disfellowshipped.
14 ministerial servants, 4 elders and 1 pioneer were convicted for Child Sexual Abuse by the Australian authorities, yet 3 of those elders and 3 of those ministerial servants were never disfellowshipped for their crimes.
Not a single instance of Child Sexual Abuse was ever reported to the authorities by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
WAT.9999.013.0012 analiza s brojevima slučajeva.pdf
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/WAT.9999.013.0012.pdf
As far as I know the police have not gone into the main WTJWorg branch for Australia and searched/collected for CSA documents from the closets and archives in the basement . This data was provided by WTJWorg Australia, voluntarily. I guess, the elders at Australia Bethel have decided what to store and how they will classify, mark the cases and what types of people (what kind of relationship were they with JW's) they will list in relation to CSA and JW congregations.
Is it a question that there should be no CSA among JWs? If someone expects that, then they are naive. But, JWs surely live in the belief that this should not be among them, because they stick to the Bible. There is generally a great deal of mutual trust in JW congregations.
WTJWorg theology teaches believers to trust one another, to have complete trust in their elders, and to be wary of worldly people and governments.
JW members were supposed to confide in their elders, and they told them that the assembly aka elders would solve the problems. And to be careful not to slander (dragging in the mud) YHVH's name in front of the authorities.
It is shameful for WTJWorg Australia (in reality the USA headquarters) that it agreed to join the national redress scheme only after being warned that it would lose its charity status and tax exemptions. Since 2015, there is still nothing about these events on JWTV.
It seems the only solution for the world authorities to get WTJWorg to cooperate is through financial pressure. It is a language that Religious Corporation of NY understands.
The very significant aka devastating testimony of a GB member before the ARC will never be on JWTV. On that occasion, Geoffrey Jackson publicly denied the core teaching of WTJWorg. He announced that GB in NY is not the only FDS (Chanel) on this planet that God is using to spread his word.
The reason he is still on the Board of Directors of the Corporation is because all the other members think like him, and that is that they are not FDS. They are FDS only for rank and file JW. Only for the purposes of the doctrine that gathers believers in a vain idea.
(1 Corinthians 5:1) . . .Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife.
Well, I agree that the fault lies with the perpetrator, but the shame falls on the whole of God's people. What are we to think of what Paul mentions to the Corinthians? Well, surely the Christians of that city would be criticized, it is most likely.
In fact, when we used to say to the victims something like: "don't report him so as not to bring reproach to the name of Jehovah" it was because, sadly, his name really did get dirty.
I also agree with the report that our site only presents positive information: successes, victories and achievements, but not the opposite. As a politician here in Spain said (and I'm sure it's the same everywhere) "others are already there to criticize us, we don't have to do it ourselves."
And I agree with the argument that we have used naivety in acknowledging the errors of the biblical writers as proof of the authenticity of the Bible.
I do not think it is debatable that at the Organization level there have been very few times where we have recognized doctrinal or other errors. And I prefer not to delve into this precise subject because he is one of the ones that hurts me the most.
Finally, with regard to Spain, from where I write, due to the fact that general elections have been called for next July, this tax exemption measure has been postponed, and we will see if with a new government it will be able to enter into force or not. A letter read to congregations this week acknowledged this situation.
It's very difficult to make a presentation without showing bias. The things that are important to one person or group or religion are the thing reported, not the things that are much less important. This presentation above was extra careful to present only things that were factual, but even here a couple of biases slipped in.
For one thing, the narrator claims by strong implication that no changes to CSA policy were initiated in the wake of the Australian Royal Commission. This isn't true. First of all, Bro Jackson made some excellent points about how responsibility for CSA policies cannot just be one-sided where all blame appears to be put on an organization when the organization itself often has no blame in the matter. Primary blame is always on the perpetrators of the crime, but policies to deal with it include government and law enforcement policies. It's true that many individuals within the organization have not always followed the law, but the law itself is often inconsistent, and frankly, the authorities have not earned public trust.
The ARC pointed out some of these egregious mistakes and even cover-ups. But the truth is that CSA policies were updated CORRECTLY in the wake of the ARC, and there was also a kind of "public service announcement" that addressed a necessary attitudinal shift among Witnesses: There was to be no more thinking that covering up CSA crimes somehow protected the reputation of the organization. From now on the emphasis was on the fact that all the shame should be centered on the perpetrator. Also, there has been a heightened awareness and sensitivity to the legal issues and more legal personnel have been aiding the organization in this regard.
I get the impression that these new policies and emphasis have been working. There are fewer and fewer NEW cases being tried against JWs. There are many cases still being tried and pending, but they are nearly always from CSA reports that predate the updated policies.
Come on, @boyle, are you trying to get the thread locked? You could stop it yourself or are you trying to get that personality puppet reported so you can bring a new one to life? I don't understand you sometimes...
I will lock it for now since you refuse to behave like a gentleman...maybe you'll go make another thread to be silly on.
Oh, don't be sorry about that. I don't know why you got your hopes up. I already knew those things - maybe your expectations were too high? I told you am low and like a kid inside. You can't expect too much from somebody like that, @boyle, come on.😆
Jesus said that when we're "no part of the world" the world would hate us. (The "world" or "worldly" doesn't mean "non-JWs"...it really means "Satan's hateful way of dealing with things".) Sometimes it's the "worldly" elements in the congregation that are the worst haters. Jehovah will fix it soon, just like He did in Jeremiah's day.🙂
(Just a note, the screenshots are from today - the "shepherding call" was from a couple of years ago and the reference material on the w-o-l has changed, so the same article isn't there linked for the verse. But I showed the same article I was talking about that used to be there, as well as how another different article from the same year that is still linked to another verse near there, just to show the point - that the guys got mad about a comment from their own Watchtower material.)
To go along with this, voting wasn't even a concept for the regular jews back in Jesus's time.
Since boyle is terribly naive, when a person votes they are not really voting for a person, but what that person believes is right or represents. For example I myself and a more middle of the road conservative, I believe abortion is murder and is wrong so I am going to vote for a candidate who believes the same way and will use their influence to end abortions. Or believe in diplomacy over war, being a good steward of the taxes we pay, etc.
I'm glad the jw version of the paradise isn't going to happen, I couldn't imagine the dictatorship of the governing body would go over very well with Jesus.
Being "no part of the world" means not acting like Satan, who is hateful and likes to lord it over others in a mean way.
Jehovah isn't like them. I am one of Jehovah's witnesses. Jehovah is my Shepherd. A shepherd of Jehovah doesn't act like those guys act.
"Jehovah is my Shepherd. I will lack nothing.
In grassy pastures he makes me lie down;
He leads me to well-watered resting-places.
He refreshes me.
He leads me in the paths of righteousness for the sake of his name.
Though I walk in the valley of deep shadow, I fear no harm,
For you are with me;
Your rod and your staff reassure me.
You prepare a table for me before my enemies.
You refresh my head with oil;
My cup is well-filled.
Surely goodness and loyal love will pursue me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of Jehovah for all my days."
Okay, @boyle if you want "evidence" here is the transcript of a "shepherding call" done over Zoom. Some background on the people mentioned in the transcript...Jonah is an elder and was my group overseer in the M- congregation. Mark is another elder in the M- congregation. M- was the congregation I went to during the time my husband was on restraining order and he couldn't be in the same hall as me and the kids at the same time. Earl was the COBE in A- congregation at the time, which was the congregation I was in for about 20 years. My young son requested that I record this shepherding call since he knew the shepherding calls had been bad. During the one prior to this one, the CO yelled at me so loud that the kids heard him even though it was over Zoom and they were in the other room with the door closed watching cartoons. The elders didn't "yell" during this one. On another shepherding call after this one, there were three elders present, and I begged them to let a sister be present for my sake, but they said no.
Saturday, February 6, 2021 3:00 pm (transcribed from video recording)
Jonah: Hey, there.
Mark: Hey, Audrey.
Audrey: Hello.
...
[small talk and prayer]
all: Amen.
Audrey: Thank you.
Jonah: So, um, again, thank you for meeting with us. I know there's been a lot of Zoom meetings and stuff going back and forth so, ah, another meeting...it just takes time out of your day. We appreciate your time. And always understanding that all of these meetings are out of love. Jehovah gives us direction right from the scriptures, and that's why we want to talk to you. It's just that, out of love. You're our sister, and we care about you, about the kids.
So, let's, if we can, let's open with a scripture, okay? Let's take a look at Romans chapter 14, and we'll take a look at verse 19. And let me know when you have that.
Audrey: Yep.
Jonah: Okay. So verse 19 says, "So then, let us pursue the things making for peace, and things that build one another up." And I always love the example of the apostle Paul, promoting peace, things like that. That scripture came out of the October 2016 workbook. And I think we, when you first moved in I recommended that. I was like, "Take a look at it. It's a great article because it's about how to give good comments." And good comments being upbuilding, and things like that.
The reason we wanted to talk to you today, Audrey, is because of your comment on Tuesday. (laughs) It was um, it [inaudible] us back, okay?
Audrey: It was what?
Jonah: Because we're...you're comment on Tuesday kind of set us back a bit. Um, because we were talking about Leviticus 26:27.
Audrey: Uh-huh.
Jonah: And then your comment during the digging part, you started off in Leviticus, but then ended up in Jeremiah.
Audrey: Yeah.
Jonah: So we, we um...
Audrey: I have it.
Jonah: Okay.
Audrey: Ah, that was last week's meeting right?
Jonah: Right, this last week. So, the body talked and comments like that, I don't know where they come from, because that one, that was a pretty pointed comment.
Audrey: It was from the Watchtower?
Jonah: Mark.
Mark: It could be from the Watchtower, Audrey, but you know, I was sitting here alone, and sometimes those comments like that, it just felt, it can feel like someone's being attacked, whether it's an individual or the body of elders. It did sound like that to me. It was like, you know, where did that, where did that come from? I mean, everybody's entitled to their opinions, but we don't hear them sometimes if they're really pointed, if we really have a problem, we go to the person or...the comment did sound like it was attacking the body of elders. It did. I mean, in all actuality. From my point of you. And I wasn't sitting with anybody but myself.
Jonah: So, as a body, we felt like, "Wow, that was, again, that was really pointed." And not just pointed, Audrey, but it was also...it wasn't relevant with the material we were talking about.
Audrey: Do you...
Jonah: And I...
Audrey: Do you want me to read it again?
Jonah: What's...Yeah. If you have it written down.
Audrey: Because I'm not that good with commenting like straight out, so I usually write it down ahead of time, and I'll cut and paste it from the Watchtower. Um, so it was actually from the notes for Leviticus 26. It was one of the references in the notes from the w.o.l. um, for that verse? On, ah, on the Sabbath Law? But, anyway, it said: "In regard to God's Sabbath Law in Leviticus 26, Jeremiah denounced the God-dishonoring actions of the elders and religious leaders. Even when persecuted, Jeremiah kept preaching. Was this wise? Wouldn't it have been safer from him to be quiet and go along with things waiting to see the outcome? By speaking up, Jeremiah was taking the course of safety. He lived. The disobedient elders and religious leaders were destroyed. Today we imitate Jeremiah by obeying Jehovah and speaking out boldly against wickedness." And I think the reference, it's in, um, I have to click it. It would have been the reference that you can find for verse 2, but in the w-o-l, but not in the one on the app, but on the online one?
Jonah: And what article does that take you to?
Audrey: Um, it'll take me a second. Hold on. I'm slow, slow with my tablet. So, on w-o-l, Leviticus 26...
Mark: So my question to you, and you haven't even put the references in, and it was referenced, it just seems like, a lot of the comments are directed to this body, would you agree to that?
Audrey: Um, when I comment, like, the question, um, it says on the gems is, "What spiritual gems from this week's Bible reading would you like to share regarding Jehovah, the field ministry, or something else?" So before I do my Bible reading for the week, I pray to Jehovah about what I need, first of all, you know, first of all if there's something I need, that I can see if from the Bible reading, that encourages me, or helps me, or disciplines me, or whatever. And then I also pray if there's anything that I can share that's encouraging to others. But sometimes the thing that I'm sharing is something that was encouraging to me.
Mark: Right, so how would that be encouraging for anybody else? Taking it away from you, how would that encourage anybody else?
Audrey: Because...The question here says, "What spiritual gems would you like to share regarding your reading," though. Since it was encouraging, I shared it.
Mark: Encouraging for you?
Audrey: Yeah, because...
Mark: You know, did you, did you, did you just pick that one out because of your situation that you're dealing with, or how did you feel that that was encouraging, say to Jehovah, or to the field ministry? Like it says, right, or the...
Audrey: Well, I'm imagining it would have been encouraging to Jeremiah in his situation, so, um...we're going to be facing the hailstone message pretty soon, and we're going to have to preach to people, well, not preach anymore, it'll be a judgement message, to people in the world, um. And so it's good for the friends to be encouraged to be able to speak out against wickedness since very soon we're going to have to make that message.
Mark: I totally get that, but it sounds like the wickedness is against the elder body. That's the overriding theme, I thought. That you were speaking out against the elders, right? That's, that what Jeremiah did, and it seems like you're doing that. That's what it sounded like. So I'm just asking, where's the encouragement in that for the congregation, not just, even if I didn't take it, other people in the congregation could take it that way. And some did take it that way. So you know, the mistrust on the elder body is there. So how is that encouraging? It might be encouraging to you, but where is the encouragement, you know, to Jehovah, the ministry, or what? Where was the encouragement for the congregation? Did you understand that, or?
Audrey: I don't really know what you're asking me.
Mark: Where was, where was, where was the encouragement. What was the encouragement we were getting out of that when you made that comment, that just like Jeremiah stood up against the badness of the elders, we need to do the same, how is that encouraging to the congregation? I mean, you know, I get the message is going to be harsh down the road, but do you really think everybody took it that way that took it that they didn't know that you meant that that's, you didn't mention that judgement message, hailstone message. You just said, when the elders do something bad, we stand up for it like Jeremiah. How is that encouraging?
Audrey: Well, we only have 30 seconds for our comment, so I try to time my comment beforehand so it doesn't go over 30 seconds.
Jonah: So when it comes to comments, Audrey, things like that, we might find things that are personally encouraging. This is, you know, but we also have to keep in mind building one another up, like Mark said. It has to, it should be encouraging. There are going to be times in the future that the message that we send to, not our brothers and sisters, but those who don't know Jehovah yet, right? That's going to be the hailstone message. That's going to be those pronouncements of judgement. In the meantime, especially...and hopefully you can understand, from our perspective, a comment like that in context with everything that's been happening for the last several months, when a comment like that is made, and especially, like I said, a lot of this is just being done out of love, because we're thinking, "Let me rethink that. What was the comment? What was the scripture? What was, what was the context?"
You know, we were thinking that about that over and over, like, please, this is...Was that a pointed comment towards the, the disobedient elders? As we've mentioned right?
Audrey: Right. That's I mean...
Jonah: So.
Audrey: Do you want me to, do you want me to, I didn't finish finding the article. Do you want me to find it?
Jonah: Um, I can, if it's on the, if it's on the online web, I can look for that. That's no problem.
Audrey: Yeah. I think, I think it's from the reference near the end of chapter 26, when he's talking about, um, what Jehovah would do if the Sabbath's were not listened to? Like...
Jonah: So, yeah. When it's the body, that's one thing, because we're thinking, and people will say things, will say things to the body, and we'll talk about it amongst ourselves and find the scriptural, ah, background, you know, behind it. But when it gets into the congregation and it upsets people, because we got several calls regarding that. Like, "Hey, that comment, what was that about? What's going on?" What's, do you know a word that, to describe that situation? Mark.
Mark: So, what I was saying, you know, if we had...There's new people in the congregation, that they're studying. Again, what kind of message does that send to someone new in the congregation. You know, what, in all actuality, what Sabbaths are we not adhering to? You know what I'm saying?
Audrey: Well, well, I guess...
Mark: It just makes it sound like we're not following, you know, we're not following direction, or something, something's wrong here. That's, a person could think that, there's something wrong.
Audrey: So if, if there's like, something wrong that goes on in the congregation, and if there were elders that didn't, you know, that supported it or allowed it or condoned it, then, you know...
Mark: We would want to leave that in Jehovah's hands because it would be dis- ...this is Jesus' congregation and, I mean, I could get into a story (laughs) you know, like what I went through personally, Audrey, you know what I'm saying? Um, not to mention any names, but, I went through a lot and I thought, "Oh, man, I'm going to fix the problems in this congregation." You know, I thought I actually got a little presumptuous. But you know something, um, I didn't take into account, ah, the spirituality of my wife at the time, how it damaged her, and damaged myself. I became angry, even my mother, who's not in the truth, saw the anger that was coming out in me. What I had to come to realize, it was actually a substitute C.O., that I was being presumptuous because I said, "I'm going to straighten this out here. (laughs) I'm going to see this straightened out." And what, you know, in the whole situation, again, not to name names, I wound up being removed, the person that I was so angry with didn't, and you know something? It was the right thing. But I didn't go and make comments like, "Oh, oh, they didn't know what they were doing!" My friends came up to me, and a lot of friends came up to me, and felt my, my grief. I just told them, I just kept doing, kept my spiritual routine up, and I said, "Listen to the brothers."
And you know something, it eventually...the moral of the story is, you leave it in Jehovah's hands. He didn't need me to take care of it. It'll get taken care of. It might take awhile. It got taken care of. And I had to learn that, and I had to learn the hard way, Audrey. You know what I mean? But I had to leave it in Jehovah's hands, and it got taken care of. Okay? It got taken care of nicely. But I also learned, I humbled myself and I learned. I learned. But I kept my spiritual routine. But I didn't attack the brothers. I told the friends to support them. It'll all work out. And it did. It did. It did. And so, we're just trying to say, just keep being upbuilding with your comments. You know what I'm saying? Don't try to, don't, don't get in a position where you're trying to attack. We're here for you. We're here for you. We're here for your family. We love you. We love you in our congregation. We want you here. And you know, we learned something, I have to mention, in elders school. One elder or two elders, it doesn't mean anything. But a body of elders, and they, and this comes right from the society, it's a pretty powerful entity, because we represent Jesus Christ the head of the congregation, and eventually Jehovah. Hey, we're not per-, we're not perfect. We're imperfect. But as a body, when we pray for you and your family, which we do, we are, we want it to work out, we want you here, but we want it done the right way. And we are just asking your cooperation in that, and trust in Jesus. He knows everything is being taken care of. Just, you have to trust. And that's what we're asking you to do. We're praying. We're not here to attack you. We aren't, Audrey. We want your family here. We love you guys. And that's what we're trying to come across.
Audrey: So...
Mark: And how do you feel about that?
Audrey: Um, I'm glad you want me here. I'm glad you pray for us. That makes me happy.
Mark: Yeah.
Audrey: Um, so, should I, should I have my comments checked by you before I can make them?
Mark: No, we're not saying that at all, Audrey. But you, you know yourself, ah, maybe you...What, maybe you didn't have an ulterior motive. Maybe you did. I don't know. You only know. I can't, I'm not, no one's accusing you. But what we're asking you to keep your comments upbuilding, just upbuilding for everybody. Instead of tearing down. Because that, that could be perceived as tearing down. You might not have meant it that way. But it can be perceived that way. Could you, can you see that?
Audrey: I...on a previous shepherding call, I was told not to talk to my friends about stuff. And so, I was also told not to email people. Um, so now I feel like I'm being told not to comment without permission. I, I...
Mark: You're taking that wrong. You're taking that wrong. What we're telling you to do is just be upbuilding. That's all.
Audrey: So if I, if I think, if I pray to Jehovah, and I think that the material, it's from the Watchtower, and it's from the Bible, and I've prayed, I've prepared my comment, obviously maybe I have, maybe, what my idea of upbuilding is different than other people. So maybe I should run it by you first?
Mark: No, (laughs) we're not asking that. You know that wouldn't be proper. We're not asking that. We're asking you to keep it upbuilding. But, when the comments are continually, maybe it sounds like it's going after somebody, you, I think you can make a lot better comment being upbuilding. Because you're an upbuilding kind of person. Wouldn't you agree?
Audrey: I, I don't, I feel like, the brothers, I mean, if you feel that...If you don't feel like it applies to you, then it shouldn't feel like it's attacking you?
Jonah: Well, the, when preparing comments, because like you said, it's great that you pray to Jehovah, and for direction on what comment, right? There's a difference between something that applies to me personally, and I'm going to work on that. Or, this applies to my situation, right? It doesn't mean you have to announce that to the congregation either. Um, the question we should ask when we share in the spiritual discussion: how will this comment upbuild, encourage, motivate, and incite to love and fine works? That's the whole point of the meetings, right, to learn and to motivate one another? How will this do that? And, again, out of love, thinking, like, like Mark said, I remember that point from elders school, that the body of elders is a very strong entity because it has Jehovah's holy spirit. We're all thinking, how, where does that fit in? And we understand. We understand in your scenario, where you'd say, we have to keep talking, because as has been brought out multiple times, in emails or whatever, you've, you've voiced your concern that situations have not been dealt with in a proper, in a proper manner. We're not going to get into that. Commenting though is to encourage the congregation. It shouldn't be a, it's not a soapbox. Right? It's not saying, I have this problem now, and everyone needs to know what's going on. That's not proper.
If we think about the, let's, let's look at another scripture. Ah, 1 Corinthians 14. And I, I know you're familiar with these scriptures. In 1 Corinthians 14, it's 14:33 and 40. And these are very serious scriptures, um, obviously with this topic in mind, okay. In verse 33 it says: "For God is a god, not of disorder, but of peace." And then verse 40, "Let all things take place decently and by arrangement." I mean, you've read that, those scriptures before. But when we think about with commenting in mind, we want our comments to be peaceful. Where there's peace, that's an attractive quality to our brothers and sisters. That's a motivating quality to our brothers and sisters. But if there's a lot of comments that, as verse 40 says, "let all things take place decently and by arrangement," if things aren't being done decently and by arrangement, then we might have to take other steps.
For instance, there was a visitor, hmm, years ago. Very disruptive to the congregation. He showed up, ah, to a couple of meetings. Ended up being disruptive, his comments had been stopped. He was, he had comments. At first, they were on topic. And then they started getting pointed. And then he was no longer called on. After that, it got even more disruptive, and he was removed. And just showing that commenting is a privilege. It's a privilege, and it's a way to praise Jehovah. It's a way to encourage, like we've said. But it's also a privilege that can be revoked as well. So, we're not saying that you have, we're not saying that you need us to proofread or have your, your comments approved. That's, that's not by arrangement either, like Mark said. But when we have personal study, how would this comment encourage, how would this be a loving gesture, how can a be a faithful, how can I be an example to the faithful ones with my comments?
Audrey: So, I guess some of the people at the meeting, like you said, are aware of the situation. They're aware that the brother currently serving as the HLC overseer in the area has physically struck me and some things which would be considered sexual abuse by people who work for, um, DHS, people are aware of that. Including my children, and several other people in the congregation? So, by commenting and saying that, anyone who's an elder who is wicked, Jehovah will take care of it, and that's related to the scriptures, and it's quoted from an article in the Watchtower. I don't find that to be attacking the body of elders. I find that to be honest words from Jehovah. Um, his foundation of his throne is on justice. And so to comment on justice in the congregation...the purpose of commenting in the congregation isn't just to encourage one another. That's part of it. But it's also to praise Jehovah, the God of truth and justice. So, I feel that that comment was praising Jehovah in a manner in harmony with his will.
Jonah: Mark?
Mark: In the scriptures, even if we have a cause for complaint, and obviously you have a cause for complaint, we're still supposed to be forgiving, as hard as that is. And, do you believe that it's being handled properly through the channel? Do you, do you, let me ask you firstly, first, do you have faith in this body in Monmouth to handle things correctly?
Audrey: Um, I have forgiven Earl and Mary Jo. In fact, if I hadn't forgiven them, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to be at peace with myself and with them and with Jehovah. Um, as far as how the brothers handle things, that, it, that's between you guys and Jehovah. I can't see what goes on when I'm not there. So, I have faith in Jehovah, and I have faith in Jesus, and I have faith in the faithful slave, and I have faith in the arrangement. So I know that it will work out, and when I comment on something, it's not to attack people. Um, I'm expressing my confidence in the fact that I know Jehovah sees when there is evil, whether it be in a publisher or on the elder body or anywhere, and so by expressing my confidence in that, I think that is encouraging to people who also know what's going on, and who also, you know, have faith in Jehovah.
Mark: But it gets seen, it's, it seems to be...I know what you're saying on one hand. And so, peop-, we all know you situation, obviously, on the body. And other people do. And we sympathize with that. But we don't have to hear how we should handle a certain situation. I think we know you said you had confidence in that. But your, your comments, Audrey, they do seem to have a theme, that theme (laughs) injustice. You don't have to do that theme. What we're asking you, maybe pick another theme (laughs) that's little bit more encouraging. Because everybody, there's enough bad in the world, you could say. You know, and for you to say that you have confidence, too, in the branch, or the way things are being handled, it still, there's still a thorn in your side, it seems, because it has been handled. Maybe not the way that we all want. Not, it's not always done the way that we want. Neither was my situation, or whatever. But it's being done the proper way, through the channels. And it'll continue to be handled through the channels. But we don't need any more disruptive, and that's what we're just asking, don't, we don't need you on top of a soapbox saying, you know, if you're being being abused or if you're, if something's wrong, we will handle it as a body. We will. Jehovah will see to it. We will handle it. But, but we're, it just seems like that's your theme, and I understand it's deep rooted. I do. We get that. But, maybe change your theme. You know what I mean?
The friends, if there's encouragement to be given, or needs to be given in that area, we as a body of elders might think it's a local needs part and we'll do that. But, you know what I'm saying? Can you understand what I'm saying? It does seem to be a theme coming from you, you know, that...you realize that?
Audrey: I, Jehovah is a god of justice, and also of love, and also of wisdom, and also of power, so if we comment on any of his four cardinal attributes, it only goes in harmony with what we know about him.
Mark: I, I get that. I get that. But because you've let a lot of people know and your situation, those comments seem to be geared a certain way. It doesn't mean, and it seems to be more justice. We know Jehovah's just. Everybody knows that. But it just seems like, um, and you know it's like, oh, woe is me, and we understand that. We do sympathize. But do you get that? It just seems to be a theme. It just seems to be a running theme with your comments. Do you, would you agree to that?
Audrey: No. Um...
Mark: You don't? You don't think you're leaning towards that? That way?
Audrey: I love Jehovah. And when I comment...
Mark: We all love Jehovah.
Audrey: I comment, when I comment, I comment for Jehovah. So I do my research, and I meditate, and then I take the Watchtower reference in particular, and I try to shrink it down to 30 seconds so that it doesn't disrupt, taking up too much time. I don't talk about anyone in particular. I talk about, I take the message that's in the Watchtower and I make it shorter so, I mean...
Mark: So but somebody could, someone could take that personally, wouldn't you say?
Audrey: If someone...
Mark: That comment that you made Tuesday, you said if, like, it wasn't directed towards me, but I felt it. So, but, is it wrong for me to feel that?
Audrey: That's...
Mark: When I don't have anything to hide? You're, you're trying to say that if you're making a comment like that, and it, and I'm not doing anything wrong it shouldn't affect me. It does affect me. It affected me because even if it was geared on someone else on the body, as a body we're unified. We're a congregation. We're trying to get over being disruptive. We, we, we dealt with that for years. We, we're trying to get close and stay close now. You know, we had it bad for a lot of years (laughs) and we're, but we feel really really good about our congregation and we want to keep it that way. Can you understand that?
Audrey: All of Jehovah's people should be together that way.
Mark: Right. Right. We should feel, we should feel that way.
Jonah: So...
Mark: Are...
Jonah: I'm sorry, Mark. I was going to say, so our concern primarily was because of the nature of it, again, the body knowing, if, if the body, amongst the body, we would say something amongst us. What was concerning was that the comment seemed to have more of a divisive effect amongst the congregation, and that's where our concern is. When we have, we get people, just calling different elders and saying, what was that about? Did you notice this? This also, again, when we think about it, how would this encourage? How would this motivate someone to join in the field ministry? I'm not saying, we're not taking anything away. We all know that Jehovah is love. We know that that love is what guides his jus-, what guides his power, what guides his wisdom. We get that. We do. But especially with a lot of the, um, what do you call it, sorry, I lost my word. The communication going, no matter what medium. If it's a, the emails, or within different shepherding calls, things like that. Everything in context, it seemed like an attack, and again, with a lot of people, you had let a lot of people know what's going on. Things like that, that shows that there might be, and we're not speculating, but there could be possibly some kind of stance against the body of elders. And that's something like Mark said, the body has been working for years on trying to be united because Satan's world is very divisive. So when we have our comments, how can we...we can say whatever we want, we can. Um, 1 Corinthians 10, "all things are lawful" we can do whatever we want. But not all things build up. So that's again, when you take a Watchtower article, is it in context, and yeah, you found a scripture in the weekly reading, took that Watchtower article, shrunk it down to 30 seconds. That's great. But we've been talking about, we have been talking about this one comment for over a half an hour. And how it affected just us. But there's also other people who've been affected too, not built up, not encouraged. But afraid. Mark?
Mark: And then, Audrey, if you send emails to people, and try to tell them that so-and-so doesn't like me and somebody's doing this or someone is doing that, and they're on the body, personally, and then you make a comment like that, how do you think that the people in the congregation are going to take that?
Audrey: I guess you need to clarify that more, I don't really know what you are saying.
Mark: If you send an email to somebody that's saying somebody made a comment that they don't like, they don't like, say it was an elder. You, you, and you sent out an email, you know, making it sound like they're not doing this right, or they're not, they're not handling this right, or they said this, or they said that. And then you make a comment like that against the elders, like Jeremiah, standing up for injustice, how do you think the people that you sent those emails to, how do you think, what do you think how they're interpreting that?
Audrey: I don't know what you're talking about, Mark. You have to be more specific.
Mark: Have you sent emails to friends that, commenting to them that so, certain people don't like you?
Audrey: Not really. I've talked to my friends specifically about Earl hurting me, and I've had Ruthanne ask me how things went on a call specifically. But...
Mark: Yeah.
Audrey: I mean, I can print off for you what I sent to her if you want. I don't talk bad about the elders. If there's someone doing something bad, I will report it to someone. So, if that someone is on the elder body, if that someone is at Bethel, if that someone is a circuit overseer, I'm going to, I mean, I'm going to report to the authorities. I do have friends, so when I have talked to people like Judy before, Judy knew me when I was in Auburn, back before when I first came in the truth. Um, and she knew some of the details about Earl and Mary Jo in my relationship with them before. So with people who knew me before ask me how Earl and Mary Jo are, or if they ask me something about that and I say, no, I'm not, we had something sketchy happen, um, you know.
Again, we talked before, and some of the brothers told me not to send emails to my friends. So I don't know if I need to, like, have you edit my messages before I send them to people, or if I'm not allowed to talk to people about the things that go on in my life. It's, it's getting to that point where I'm like, "Am I allowed to talk, or do I have to ask permission first?" Um.
Mark: It's the detail, it's the details that you send about your life that people probably shouldn't know, because things are being handled by certain things.
Audrey: I...
Mark: Like your husband, like your husband. No one should know the details on that except like an elder body and you personally. To send that out in an email to people that really have no right to know that. You know?
Audrey: So, I guess, who specifically do you mean that I share details with that I shouldn't? Because if I know, then I'll know what you're talking about more clearly. But if you're generic, it's hard for me to know what you're saying.
Mark: Well, you sent, you sent one to my wife.
Audrey: Yep.
Mark: Okay.
Audrey: I...
Mark: With details, wait a minute! And she came back to you that she was going to pray for you but she didn't need to know the details of what your husband did, because that's being handled judicially, see what I'm saying? But now that she knows, that's not fair to your husband. So that's what I'm saying. When you send out emails, you send out details, they know there's trouble, and sometimes if you can slant it like it's not being handled right, certain situations, that's not being generic, then everybody says, wait, what's going on here? What's going on here? Nothing's being handled.
Audrey: So with Donna, Donna is your wife, and I view you as one of the, on the body of elders, as a mature man, and I view her as a mature woman. So, when I decided to send it to Donna, it's because I was looking for help as a mother figure, because I view Donna that way. I trust her, we, she's in the ministry. I view her, I mean, I hear her comments at the Kingdom Hall and I look up to her. So I wasn't try to like share details with random people on facebook. When I picked Donna, it's because I trust her, and I need someone, because when I told the brothers that my husband committed adultery and his girlfriend contacted me, I really didn't get a shepherding call or anyone comforting me. So I was looking to a sister that I could trust to comfort me. And I thought Donna might be somebody that would do that. And if I didn't tell, I didn't think she'd go sharing all the details with everyone. I do love my husband. I do respect him, and I do not want everybody under the sun to know everything, and I didn't expect that Donna would tell everybody. I thought she could keep a confidence, so that's why I chose, I was looking to her for help.
Mark: She didn't tell everybody, but I read it and she...
Audrey: Well, I figured she would share it with you.
Mark: Yeah.
Audrey: But I just mean, that's why I chose Donna and not, you know, and so...
Mark: But do you see what I'm saying, it just seems just like there's an overriding theme here. (laughs)
Jonah: So, we, like Mark said, we understand that you're going through a lot. We do. And that's an understatement. We understand that it's always on your mind. COVID doesn't help either. Right? Because we have nothing else to do, except for service, to keep our minds occupied. But when it comes to, it's just a request. We're not going to edit. We're not going to censor, we're not going to revise or whatever, tell you, but it's a suggestion as the, as the article brought up - be upbuilding.
What I like to think is upbuilding might not be, um, what's the word, relevant to the discussion that we're having. That might be a one-on-one conversation. But again, when it starts disrupting the congregation, that's when we're concerned. So, none of the elders, whenever we give a talk, we never have any kind of personal background on something. And we don't, we don't put that in our agenda, right? We follow, the Watchtower conductor follows the outline in the Watchtower, the public speaker follows the outline for the public talk. And that's what we follow. And that is all upbuilding and encouraging.
We're just asking that you just watch what you say. And we would, we would recommend that to anyone as well. And we have, too. People who have pointed comments, we go to them and say, "Are you okay?" (laughs) We have regular communication and we know, again, what you're going through. But something like that, it raises, it, it's a caution to just change on what we talk about and what we discuss. Mark, did you have something?
Mark: Yep, it, it, it's something like, Audrey, you can pray for your comment to be good, and no one's telling you what to say, but we know about Jehovah's justice, but are there other things you could be upbuilding about? Of course there are. We have a, we have a ton of people in our congregation that, frankly saying, are dying, right before our very faces. You know. We've got several that are on the brink of dying. Maybe they can use encouragement about endurance. Maybe even if you had your situation and geared it towards endurance or something. You don't have to always be about justice or misjustice or, you hear what I'm saying? You hear what I'm saying, kind of? Be upbuilding. Gear it towards another way, that's all. Just a, just a suggestion.
Audrey: I write a lot of personal cards to people, that's part of what the kids and I try to do. And so I do, you know, try to do that on a personal level for the, especially the older ones in the congregation. We write them letters, and we make it encouraging and personal...
Mark: That's commendable.
Audrey: So usually when I'm doing my comment for praising Jehovah, I'm focusing more on Jehovah and my relationship with him, in praising him in the congregation. Um, but, I do think about the friends a lot and pray about them a lot.
Mark: All of us want to gear, his biggest attribute is what, love, right? So we want to love one another, all of us. And even though things aren't perfect, and we're imperfect men, and we acknowledge that, there are things that we have cause for complaint, as the scriptures say. All of us have gone through it. But, right? We're going to kill it with love, more love. That's all we can do, you know? And a lot of things won't be right this side of Armageddon. They're just not going to be. But, again, just to keep the unity, we just want to keep displaying love among one another. That's what we want to do.
Audrey: But I know we also have to show love for Jehovah's name. And sometimes something's not the popular course, but if it's showing love for Jehovah's name above all else, that's important, too.
Mark: And what, what what, what are you saying? What exactly are you talking about? Like, that's kind of generic. Give me something, what would be an attack on Jehovah's name?
Audrey: Um, allowing something reproachful to continue inside the circuit.
Mark: Well, why should that...
Jonah: Well, we already...
Mark: Why should that be your, your concern, if you're relying, if you're relying on, on, on the chain of command, branch, all the way down?
Audrey: Because...
Mark: Why would that be your concern?
Audrey: Because I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Mark: (laughs) I get that. I get that. But you don't think it's going to be handled? You see an injustice, there's a lot of injustices in the circuit. You've got to rely on Jehovah. If your love is for Jehovah, and you've got to know he sees everything. It'll be handled, right? But we don't have to get on a soapbox. It'll be handled. I mean, certain situa-, for 14 years, certain things will straighten out will take a lot of years. Right? But we have to leave it in Jehovah's hands. Not on our timetable, right, wouldn't you say?
Audrey: Well, leaving things in Jehovah's hands doesn't imply necessarily silence if there's something going on that needs to be reported. So, like in Jeremiah's case, Jeremiah knew Jehovah was going to take care of matters in time, but he didn't stop preaching, and he didn't, whatever his, you know, in his case, what his assignment was was different than mine or anyone else's. So we, as individuals, have to, you know, pray to Jehovah, look at our own circumstance, and look at the research and follow the direction of the faithful slave. Though in my case, I'm not an elder, so it's not my job to do what you guys do, um, but you know, I have my...
Mark: You have your own opinion, but do you think you make our job any easier by continuing to do, what you're going to do, whatever you're seeing here in the circuit that you think what you don't think is being done right, where is the confidence in this elder body? Or where is the confidence on the circuit level? Or on the branch level? If you continually, it seems to be continually, don't think things are being handled correctly, where is the confidence? How do I feel confident in that? Where, where do I get confidence in that?
Audrey: It's, it's Jehovah's opinion that's important, not my opinion. But, as far as confidence, the brothers make these arrangements for field service, for the meetings, for distribution of literature, for distribution of food when we have the food boxes, for teaching the congregation, for shepherding the sheep. So all of those, those, those organizational jobs that you guys do, you know, that's, that's from Jehovah, and so we support that. And I support that wholeheartedly. Just like...
Mark: Yeah, but, it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem that way when you keep speaking out. Because your making it sound like you have to speak out about the injustice where you're not showing confidence in Jehovah, who has a channel of command, Jesus Christ head of the congregation, who he has the elders in his hand, and we get direction from the faithful slave how to handle these, these things, and you're not showing confidence, it doesn't sound like, in that chain...you're saying you believe in Jehovah, that we're doing this and this, yeah, I can give out food, but we're also in Jesus hands to take things on if something's not being done right. But I don't see your confidence in that. You say you trust in Jehovah, but Jehovah's chain of command starts locally in the elder body. Would you agree with that?
Audrey: If I quote a piece of the Watchtower in my comment, then I feel I am showing confidence in Jehovah's chain of command.
Mark: No, you're not. No. You, you're missing the whole thing. Where is your confidence in the chain of command to handle the situations that you think aren't being handled right?
Audrey: Well, that's why I'm meeting with you right now. If I didn't have confidence in the chain of command, I wouldn't have met with you. So I do have confidence in the chain of command, that's why I'm here.
Mark: Yes, but not by your comments, Audrey. It seems to be pointing the fingers that it's not being handled right at the elder body. It's coming across that way. And so, you can say whatever you want to say that you think you pray about it in your comments and you have faith in Jehovah. If you had faith in Jehovah, you would back the arrangement that he has in place. You need to do that. Can you see that?
Audrey: I don't feel that I'm not backing Jehovah or his arrangement. I, I do support his arrangement.
Mark: Can you, can you just say that again? You just said, what did you just say at the beginning?
Audrey: Okay. I don't feel that I'm not supporting Jehovah. I do feel that I am supporting his arrangement.
Mark: How do you feel that, though? Do you really think that we feel trusted by you, or have confidence by your comments? Do you feel like that we feel like you have confidence in us?
Audrey: I can't change how you, I can't...
Mark: Would you honestly say that?
Audrey: I don't know how you feel except for what you say. I, I can't control how you feel and I wouldn't want to try to. I, that's not my job to control anybody or to tell them how to feel or not feel or what to say or not say. Jehovah gives us free, and so you're going to feel how you feel and that's okay. Um, I'm you're sister, and I'm going to be your Christian sister and...
Mark: I understand that, but if you keep making comments (laughs) like you did Tuesday. How is, how is that making me feel, I want, I want to make you feel good. You're my sister. I'm you're brother. Don't you want to make me feel...How are you making me feel good if you keep commenting like that against, it sounds like, the elders? That's what it comes across as. And I'm not the only one. I mean, that's the overall, you know, people are, are taking it that way. So don't you think, well if they're taking it that way, you can't turn around and say, oo! They're taking it that way, I can't, I can't, I'm not responsible for what they feel, if they, if a, if a large part of the congregation feels that way, Audrey, you should take note of that, don't you think?
Audrey: My husband attacked me one night, and he felt that I didn't love him. Now, my actions showed I loved him, because I sat right here in this chair next to us, and I just sat still and I didn't talk back while he screamed at me abuses for hours. Um, on another occasion, he attacked me and the police came and took him away. He can tell people day and night that I don't love him. But I love that man so much that I forgave him when he committed adultery against me. I love that man. And I love you, Mark, and I love you, Jonah. So you may not feel that I love you. I can't change that. But I can keep just going to meetings and doing what I feel that Jehovah is telling me to do through the faithful and discreet slave, through the organization, through the meetings, keep doing the ministry, keep taking care of my kids. And someday you'll know how much I love you.
Jonah: So what, like I said, what we wanted to, we, I know you keep talking round and around and we just want to bring our concerns to you regarding that comment. So and how, how the reaction was towards that. So we want to let you know about that. We wanted to kind of share with you also those scriptures, just to keep in mind peace, maintaining order, um, being encouraging and upbuilding. And you know what? It's, it is, it has been said that when it comes to the ministry, you guys are upbuilding. You guys are there everyday, from what I hear. I'm not there every day. Um, and when, and when we hear something that's slightly off, like that, it perks our ears up, like what? What happened? So we just want you to, to be aware of, of that. Just consider our counsel, please. And, um, and, Mark?
Mark: And so, we're meeting with you totally out of love, Audrey. Totally. But at the same time, we want to be firm, too. That if the comments continue to be negative, if we perceive it that you continue to attack the body, your privileges of commenting can be, could be ended. We just want to make that clear. We're not saying that we're doing that. That they could be. We're just trying to tell you to be upbuilding. And we're doing this out of love. We truly do love you and your family. And I know you're going through, we're trying to move, move on, and we want you here, it's just. We want you to be aware of it. We just want to make you aware of it.
Audrey: Thank you for meeting with me.
Jonah: If we can, if I could say a prayer for all of us, okay?
I don't think I said anything that could be considered "stupid talk about that country" @boyle, but out of respect for you and whichever brother you mean, I will refrain from the topic if it pleases you.🙂
I'm not disfellowshipped by Jehovah, or by His Friends. Jehovah's Friends (the ones who are awake) know that Jesus' ransom is enough for me. (The other ones are sleeping, but they'll wake up eventually.)
How magnanimous of you.😁
I don't think @Witness is bad. I think she's just a little mixed up at present. I don't follow Pearl - I follow Jesus. I'm not an apostate. I believe the Bible is God's Word and I put God's Word ahead of what any imperfect person teaches.
What are you talking about? I know God's name is Jehovah. Jehovah left His Name on Jehovah's Witnesses. He could remove it if He wanted too. But He hasn't. I know Jehovah will clean up the organization bearing His Name, because His Name Means He Causes To Become. His Name is associated with His Reputation, the God of Love. Jehovah will never fail to come for us, to save us, to rescue us. I am waiting for Him. His name is the "signal" for us. Jesus' name means "Jehovah is Salvation." I will wait where Jehovah's name is. Even if I'm "just outside the walls" so-to-speak, because bad guy elder wolves threw me out for telling the truth.
What was she reinstated as?
Did you stop viewing her as your sister for awhile and then you changed your mind?
Why did you abandon her when she needed you most, if she was potentially spiritually weak or sick?
Didn't Jesus tell an illustration about taking care of a beat up unconscious person?
If you considered her to be spiritually unconscious, how could you just abandon her and leave her for dead?
What do you mean by "status"?
Did Jehovah have the spirit come down in bodily form like a dove so that you could be aware of His approval of her or the lack thereof?
How do you measure genuine repentance if you can't read the heart?
Where does it say anywhere in the Bible the process utilized by the congregation at present for these "reinstatement" rituals?
If you can't literally see "the Devil take her over" as you say, why would you conclude such a thing?
And if that did happen, how could you leave her with him and expect counseling to help?
How did you measure that one, that she "left Jehovah's hands"?
How do you know she ever "left Jehovah's hands" if you can't see Jehovah?
If she had been visiting with you for a period of time, as you make it sound, why didn't you forgive her the very first day she came to you, since Jesus said "if you brother comes to you even 77 times a day and repents you must forgive him..."?
Why would you make her suffer by treating her as an outcast in God's house just because of some dumb rules from headquarters that are opposed to Jehovah's holy spirit and Christ's commands?
(Just wondering.🥹 From my point of view, that whole "reinstatement ritual" seems pretty "worldly"/satanic. Not really what Christ would do at all. I know you're just following orders from the GB. Please, @boyle, I do hope you will reconsider that someday. I just know Jesus has so much more good work for you to do in the future, and even now, to comfort people like the Christ did, if only that GB rhetoric wasn't getting in the way of showing love.)💖
"Hanlon's razor is a saying that reads:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." (wikipedia)
We cannot read hearts, @boyle, so we don't know whether it's malice or stupidity motivating the GB. In Ahab's case, it was both.
"Jehovah then said, ‘Who will fool Aʹhab, so that he will go up and fall at Raʹmoth-gilʹe·ad?’ And one was saying one thing while another said something else. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, ‘How will you do it?’ He replied, ‘I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.’ And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, but Jehovah has declared calamity for you."
(1 Kings 22:20-23)
Jehovah has allowed the GB to be deceived. They think the great tribulation UN attack on religion will spare the organization. They are wrong. The UN attack on religion will start at the Bethels. The properties will be completely stripped.
"Then I said: “Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Truly you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats.”...They come against her on all sides like guards of the open field, Because she has rebelled against me,” declares Jehovah.
“Your own ways and your actions will be brought upon you.
How bitter is your disaster, For it reaches clear to your heart!”
O my anguish, my anguish!
I feel great pain in my very heart.
My heart pounds within me. I cannot keep silent,
For I have heard the sound of the horn,
The alarm signal of war.
Disaster after disaster has been reported,
For the whole land has been destroyed.
Suddenly my own tents are destroyed,
In a moment my tent cloths.
How long will I keep seeing the signal,
Keep hearing the sound of the horn?
“For my people are foolish;
They take no note of me.
They are stupid sons, with no understanding.
They are clever enough when it comes to doing bad,
But they do not know how to do good.”
(Jeremiah 4:10,17-22)
The Bible definition of someone "stupid" is someone who lacks moral sense. The GB does not have the moral sense to protect and feed the flock. They can be identified by their fruits. Jesus is coming to make an accounting at the appointed time.
"A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
“Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”
(Matthew 7:19-27)
Similar to the Pharisees of old, the GB has taught some truths, but they have also taught lies about Jehovah. They have become part of the world by means of their business-like approach to worship. Rather than staying true to the Master and remaining in God's love, they have put showy display and desires of the flesh and desire of the eyes ahead of Christ's command to minister to others and to show love. Because of this, they are part of the world, just like the Pharisees were and just like many of the clergy of Christendom today. When Jesus is enthroned, he will allow the nations to discipline the organization. She will be stripped of all her properties, because she used them to glorify men and hide wrongdoing and teach falsehoods rather than glorify God.
There are still many good people among Jehovah's witnesses, and there are many truths being taught. The organization will be refined during the great tribulation. There will be a faithful religious remnant who survive the UN attack on religion, lowly ones who are truly "no part of the world" as evidenced by their impartial love for humankind and who are sighing and groaning over the detestable things going on in organized religion. With angelic assistance, they will regroup, Jesus will regather the scattered sheep from everywhere they are scattered and we will all worship Jehovah as one organized people for Jehovah's Name. It's a lot to do during the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation, but Jesus can handle it. He's got this.
You know that the "someone" who "mentioned" flee to the mountains was Jesus. And it was a command.
If the "branch" had given different direction, which direction would you follow? (It's a rhetorical question so you don't have to say if you don't want!☺️)
When the branch says to shun, they are giving opposite direction to Jesus' command to love.
The pattern in place is a dangerous one for the flock.
"Then the disciples came and said to him: “Do you know that the Pharisees were stumbled at hearing what you said?” In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”"
"...he disguised his sanity in their presence and acted insane while among them. He was making marks on the doors of the gate and letting his saliva run down his beard. Finally Aʹchish said to his servants: “You see that this man is crazy! Why bring him to me? Do I have a shortage of crazy men that I need to have this one acting crazy before me? Should this man enter my house?”"
David wasn't really crazy, he was just creative. Some of those creative writing people have amazing imaginations too. I'm not really into fiction stories too much these days, personally, but David had a reason for his mask. I suppose some other people have a reason for their masks too. I think it's fun to be entertained by puppets, but I don't like when they get too wacky. (And I must say abusive speech from puppets is nothing compared to hearing it from elders or others in authority. At least from the puppets it's like a joke. I don't even notice it coming from online characters compared to what it is like in the congregation setting. The ones who are like that in the congregation aren't joking...)
"Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
vul·ner·a·ble
adjective: vulnerable
susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm."we were in a vulnerable position"
Similar: in danger in peril in jeopardy at risk endangered unsafe unprotected ill-protected unguarded open to attack attackable assailable exposed wide open undefended unshielded unfortified unarmed without arms without weapons defenseless easily hurt/wounded/damaged powerless helpless pregnable impuissant resistless exposed to open to wide open to liable to prone to prey to susceptible to subject to not above in danger of at risk of at the mercy of an easy target for easily affected by in the firing line susceptive of
Opposite: well protected invulnerable resilient immune to above
(of a person) in need of special care, support, or protection because of age, disability, or risk of abuse or neglect."employees must be better trained in how to deal with vulnerable young people"
As regards "vulnerability"...Just because someone wears their heart on their sleeve doesn't make them vulnerable. To the contrary, some who wear their hearts that way have an unseen strength that cannot be comprehended by onlookers, because it is strength from Jehovah, and not everybody can see Jehovah. It is not difficult to uncover your heart when you are resting in Jehovah's hands. He is the Most Fortified Stronghold.
It appears to me the ones who are truly "vulnerable" hide what they are rather than coming into the light. That's not my business. Why do they call others "vulnerable" when they are the ones who are really scared?
I don't know why they're so scared. Or maybe I do. Sometimes when your view of the "world" is shaken up, it can be scary. There's no need to be scared. The ransom is big. Jehovah is merciful, and it's only His opinion that really matters anyway.
"“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world, but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For whoever practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works may not be reproved. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that his works may be made manifest as having been done in harmony with God.”💖
Being "no part of the world" means not being fake.
