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César Chávez

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Everything posted by César Chávez

  1. So what you are saying, the Apostles had no authority to invoke the word of God, even though Jesus commissioned them to do just that? When Moses struck the rock, was Moses alone or was he in front of the people. Maybe you can clarify your position. Now, didn't Jesus separate church and state? What do you suppose Jesus was talking about when he mentioned "Give Caesar what is Caesars" Was Caesar a Sanhedrin or a man of state? Now think about Hebrews 13:17. What err do you see when someone from the ORG questions a leaders actions that has no basis for it, just outside influence and speculation. Does that not mean, that person is putting themselves in Moses chair? Why would that be presumptive? Their actions are signaling to others, they have the right to complain just like Furuli did. Was he correct to do that? NO! Since God's Holy Spirit would not have been with such a divisive person.
  2. Then it simply means, people that err with this standard of assumption has not fully understood the GB and the actions of the apostles. Agreeing with former members would not be, good advice or a good observation. Those that do so are asking for perfection of others, when those should start with themselves first.
  3. Actually not. The Watchtower is run under that mandates and obedience to scripture under the purview of organized JWs. Your focus is on, how to "hate" an organization that has no more control of its members than governments do. Therefore, the hypocrisy lies with you, no one else. That makes you the one mixing between church and state. At your age, you would think, knowledge would work by now. Keep in mind, you have given a secondhand experience that in a court of law it would be considered hearsay. You expect people to believe you are a credible person, when you have no credibility. You continue to harp on an issue that is constant throughout the world by "all" governments and institutions and it has been for centuries. Then, you conflate the issue as though it occurs every day and over 8 million members are guilty. When did God give that authority of judgement over his domestics? Your absolute statements mean, God speaks to only you and directly in order to receive such Christy commission and honor. Share the poof of the mighty hand of God. With Moses, it was a burning bush.
  4. Since you are speaking in the absolute, where is it proven and confirmed by God himself. Your personal opinion doesn't matter. The expressed opinions of people here doesn't matter regardless if they believe, they stand inside the organization while their own rhetoric is "rejected" by proof of scripture. Therefore, it is not for me to decide your disloyalty to God, but you must repent from your worldly views about scripture. I understand, you have no way but down at this point since you decided to take a stand against the Watchtower. Just keep in mind, hatred is rejected by God and Christ. You condemn yourself, every step of the way, even if you decide to seek other forms of salvation. That is something even "witness" continues to deny. Therefore, who are we fooling, NOT GOD!
  5. Why should they, if yours are not. That's kind of the pea calling the kettle black. Even "witnesses" comments here that are supposed to be spiritual, have a lack of bible understanding that any faithful witness can challenge. Yes, you have "proven" you're "hate" for the GB, because of situations you personally decided to reject without proper insight. That insight is, the Watchtower has no more "control" of your personal thoughts, when you were an insider than they could a person with a disturbed mind. Remember that the next time you decide to prolong a nonsensical argument. If you stood with the Watchtower at one point, then, under your own understanding, that made you as guilty as the GB and the rest of the Watchtower brotherhood. That's a wide mentality way of thinking. That would suggest, World governments are guilty of our own personal actions. Can you provide which Government has cast such a wide net? Therefore, don't complicate your life with, is a comment is spiritual or not here. We are speaking to opposers of the truth. Young Timothy said it best, reprove those that oppose them. Since the Watchtower's ideology comes from scripture, those that are willing to "repent" will be shown the way, not those that continue to reject sound judgement from God. Learn to separate your arguments between church and state. I believe your age demands it.
  6. Yeah, but you act like one here. Even free birds have the sense to understand when they are hatched what their survival Intel. They don't have the mindset of a human, but they still learn skills. What's the excuse then for people?
  7. How does it not make sense to you. The issue here is control. First ex-witnesses make claim that witnesses are being brainwashed by the Watchtower. Then they claim, the Watchtower is NOT brainwashing members enough? Which is it? The Watchtower deals with spirituality like Jesus and the apostles. When did they implement personal physical protection, when they couldn't give it to themselves. Are you suggesting Jesus and the apostles died of natural causes? You need to make better sense of your argument.
  8. The leaked BOE letters attest to that. When did you decide, Elders became robots, or they weren't brainwashed enough not to follow sound instructions. I believe Elders and Ministerial Servants need to find common ground when it comes to spiritual wisdom and man's laws. I find that to be a task not worthy of many. You are correct, those that have stepped down for their own personal understanding and grievances needed to step down. They should go even further, and leave. Theirs no place in Christ Body for conflicted members. That leads to an understanding. When did you decide Elders are lawyers, caretakers of peoples free will. When did the Watchtower decide, they are responsible for an individuals personal life. Spiritual life, YES!, But personal life, never! That "responsibility" belongs with each individual. If not, that means, after being born, government has been responsible for whatever happens to us in life. Does that make any kind of sense?
  9. Correct! However, ex-witnesses don't want to read sound logic. They prefer to hear from insiders that have a problem with how the organization is being run. They don't believe in God's plan, and how God cleans an organization that has been corrupted by outside influence. I believe Dr. Furuli's new book speak volumes on that kind of influence. Ex-witnesses don't understand the outside politics such as in, how Australia overturned Cardinal George Pell, sexual child abuse conviction that he "personally" was charged with, not because of priest actions but his own action. Where does that leave their irrational ideology? Will it stop them, they can't. They have invested years of being "wrong" they can't do anything but continue to harp on nonsense, from either outsiders or insiders.
      Hello guest!
  10. Try understanding it, then you'll find where the fault lies. Am I missed the point is the answer!
  11. Well, lets see if it makes any sense or difference to a Scholar, not a bible educated layman, but a genuine Scholar. Maybe you will understand the implication or not. [Library of New Testament Studies] James S. McLaren - Power and Politics in Palestine_ The Jews and the Governing of Their Land, 100 BC-AD 70 Because it is event-based, this study is unique among discussions of the administration of Palestine during the first centuries BC and AD. This approach has enabled me to clarify many aspects of how the administration functioned, especially in terms of which Jews participated in the decision-making process. Consequently, it has important implications for scholarly understanding of what actually happened in the governing and administration of the late Second Temple Jewish community in Palestine, and leads us to challenge many established ideas. Institutions existing in this period were not significant in decision making. There is evidence for a boule/gerousia in Jerusalem during the first centuries BC and AD. Thus boulel gerousia was an official institution, recognized as representative of the community on formal occasions. It was, however, only an active participant in the sense that it fulfilled administrative tasks, possible in association with 'magistrates' (oi apxovxeq). The origins of this institution are uncertain, though it probably dated from before the first century AD. It was replaced by the 'common council' (KOIVOV) during the revolt. Two further instruments of government could be activated by a leading figure whenever it was deemed appropriate. Both these bodies are described by the term synedrion in Josephus's works and the New Testament. One acted as an advisory body while the other was a means of arbitration, normally in a capital offence trial. Neither was a permanent institution, let alone a 'representative national body'. Their membership was determined on an ad hoc basis by one of the leading figures. Hence, all scholarly discussion of whether one, two or three permanent institutions known by the title synedrion existed is irrelevant. page-223 Who are the Sanhedrin (synedrion) Did the Jerusalem council have the power to execute Christ? Yet, where does Jesus put that council in Matthew 23:3. Woes to the scribes and pharisees? Therefore, to subvert scripture for one's gain is profane to God. Was there a governing body like structure in the first century? Jesus own words affirmed there was. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. Was Jesus not converting Jews into Christianity? "REFLECT" on the knowledge between Scholars and well educated laymen of scripture.
  12. It would be simple to say, anyone that gets removed from a possession of responsibility or gets disfellowshipped have a need to take a cheap shot at the Watchtower. Is that an Ex-Witness ideology?, maybe, but I know many ex-witnesses that accept their own fate and use the "live and let live" model of conformity. Furuli won't be the last person to profane sound Christian ethics and Bible understanding. He should have argued his complaints here. At least a faithful witness with as much time invested in the organization would have made him see the many errors his heart now, lies. If you can save such a person from himself, then it would have been well worth it. /
  13. Sorry to say, you are the one harping on this issue. You are the one trying very hard to twist the narrative. You need to stop and accept you were wrong in your assumption just like you are wrong with your understanding of scripture. The GB have not lost their way, you are the one that has lost his way by being influenced by Raymond Franz and Carl Jonsson. Your rhetoric won't convince be otherwise. Therefore, continue to spin away. Funny how, now you praise Furuli because he has lost his way also and you are now willing to defend him at all cost when you heavily criticized him in his earlier works of defending 607 BC. This just shows how inconsistent someone's erred personal views, fog up sound thought. I believe your own words condemn you. Nice try thought!
  14. It just comes to show how far former witnesses are willing to go after they are disfellowshipped. Those people have a need to show others they have an ax to grind. But, just like John Butler (4jah2me), she started listening to the internet garbage instead of doing her own research. Personal testimony found in this book page 69
  15. Well this former witness believes Jesus is God just like any false religion. His opinion in Chapter 6 references it. How can Jesus say to the Jews in John 8:58, “before Abraham was, I AM”? The NWT says, “before Abraham was, I was.” No, that´s not what the Lord said. He said, “I AM” because His name is I AM that I AM (Exodus 3:14a) page 42 Therefore, how can any present witness take the opinion of a person that never understood scripture, give an honest assessment about the Watchtower GB. That's just laughable.
  16. When news media receive their news from secondhand accounts rather than investigating a substance on their own? It just becomes unsubstantiated news propaganda to appease former members of the Watchtower. A ploy that Trump uses to satisfy his base. 😏
  17. Exactly! Why do you keep bringing it up? Therefore, it's not the date but your own action. That way Srecko can laugh at commonsense. 😏
  18. You can no longer profane 1975. The fact that it has been misapplied by many here that one article in 1974 put to rest, is the case in point. Also, At what point did anyone decide, the 144,000 kings weren't coming from earth to rule with Christ in Heaven, That's the point. To have someone that understands humanity throughout it's history. Therefore, just like the apostles were invented into heaven, did they not live on earth? Matthew 19:28 Does that mean Christ won't use faithful servants on earth? All who make it over Armageddon will be those faithful servants. Within those servants, a heavenly structure of self-discipline will be made, as it is in heaven! Where in scripture does it state, immediately after Armageddon, earth will automatically and instantly become perfect? So, NO! Those Kings will NOT be on earth. Another reason to have all the 144,000 in heaven, ready to cleanse the earth. That makes for a righteous government, a heavenly government that leads everyone back to a sinless state.
  19. True. Just keep in mind, Jesus appointed and commissioned the apostles and the apostles commissioned others to be Elders. Therefore, Jesus is the head of the congregation and true Christians are the church, while spiritual leaders are part of that church. The Watchtower GB do not consider themselves above the brethren, they preach and teach alongside the brethren. They understand their place, and glorify God for sending his son to be our savior. This is why, they understand they will be held more accountable if they lead God's sheep astray. They honor that responsibility, they don't run away from it. They will not deny Jesus 3 times just because of internal pressure or outside influence. They are God's servants to the end. Therefore, a weak link does no good to a structure. A building will fall when the foundation is weakened by poor construction. The reason God demands loyalty upon faith. For this reason, you shouldn't confuse the rhetoric of outsiders.
  20. Furuli's new book: Is any of it right? Useful? Like Franz? Furuli’s new book is as useless and the one written by Raymond Franz. However, this has not been the first time in the Watchtower history that people have objected a structured organization. Once again, the murmurs of discontent return. History does repeat itself! However, this was not in the heart of Brother Knorr as described by Furuli. Brother Knorr had accepted the JW ideology. A point in Rutherford’s assembly talk where he voiced, “Am I one of Jehovah’s Witness” and the audience yelled back NO! Even though some have sought to dismiss that fact, since 1931 was a transitional period. The fundamental failure of Furuli’s book can be interpreted by the follow exultation. 1 Corinthians 1:10 10I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our LORD Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. This begs the question in which side Rolf, Raymond, and JWinsider are in. Regardless of how one views the Watchtower’s history, there were independent “Ecclesia” within the Bible Student Movement. Some, didn’t favor any organized structure. It would seem the above would approve and prefer that kind of disunity among the brethren. I remembered the following after 1931 by one of these factions. Herald: Occupied with a Service of Encouragement April 1931 “For very special and proper reasons we have desired to leave the brethren, individually and collectively; free to undertake such work as they might believe worthy of their effort, and to avoid anything that might appear to be a desire to assume leadership in directing ;such general activity. The passing years seem to have shown that this attitude has been the wisest and best. In every way we have, sought to guard against the idea of building up another human system or organization, and against the encouraging of any one joining anything that could have the slightest semblance of abridging the liberties of the brethren or of bringing them into any kind of bondage; and we shall continue to exercise the same cautiousness with regard to future proceedings and undertakings. As we have time and again stated our position, we do not find in the Scriptures that any brother or board of directors or committee of brethren are authorized to consider themselves constituted as any kind of a ruling or governing body or authority or channel in the Church, and we would admonish the brethren everywhere to be very courageous and heroic in resenting the intrusion or encroachment of any such influence or disposition on the part of anyone. It is in keeping with this thought and principle that the brethren of this association have carefully avoided intruding themselves or any of their suggestions into any Class or Ecclesia of brethren by way of meddling in its affairs, and we have to the contrary urged the brethren and Classes of friends everywhere to maintain their own independence and identity and freedom of thought by deciding all questions and issues for themselves and looking after their oven affairs apart from the interference of any outside company or body of brethren.” So, were people back then apprised of such a body? Their words speak for themselves! Are they correct to deny what is written in scripture? We know Paul and Barnabas appointed Elders Acts 14:21-23 We know by way of 1 Timothy 5:17-19 The Elders directed the affairs of the church. When did the apostles have to go before the Jerusalem Council (Sanhedrin) that was also considered the governing council of Elders? Just like those Ecclesia churches of old that refused to accept a structured order, so too is Furuli incorrect, by not adhering to scripture that does support a structured body. Depending on which ancient writer you use, Josephus commented there being 70 elders while others refer to 21 or 24. The ancient records go as far back to the “Hebrew ethnarch” in Augustus time, was a council of Elders. What is Gerousia? A council of Elders in the Greek. Therefore, the first century Jerusalem council (Sanhedrin)-(Governing Body) was the Jewish council of Elders. Ephesians 4:11-14 11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 1 Corinthians 12:28 28And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 2 John 1:9 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work. Why Furuli decided to go against scripture, only he knows. We receive different gifts of the Holy Spirit. One more responsible than the other by our own action. Under this condition, Furuli’s new book is of NO use to a baptized witness just like the book written by Raymond Franz. Patterns of Ministry among the First Christians In our earliest sources, the Sanhedrin is called the “council of elders.” But this designation fell out of usage. By the first century AD the term elder was restricted to the lay members of the Sanhedrin, in distinction to the priests and the scribes (cf. Mark 11:27; 14:43; Matt 16:21 etc.). It is generally Agreed that all members of the Sanhedrin at the time of Christ were mature, aristocratic Jews either of the Sadducean or Pharisaic party. We simply do not know how appointment to the Sanhedrin took place, and whether it was for life or for a limited period. The political powers of the Sanhedrin waxed And waned in the relation to the powers of the rulers of the day. But for the Jews, the Sanhedrin was the final authority in all areas of life. The distinction between the political and the religious domain, or between public and private life, would not have been understood. The Sanhedrin elders were a very select group of men, but are still to be seen as communal leaders who had gained their position through age, social standing and almost certainly observance of the Mosaic Law. Elders deliberated on matters of a religious and political nature, but were laymen with no cultic responsibilities in the temple and no office by necessity in any synagogue. Page 100 ISBE The Hellenistic kings conceded a great amount of internal freedom to municipal communities, and Palestine was then practically under home rule, and was governed by an aristocratic council of Elders (1 Macc 12:6; 2 Macc 1:10; 4:44; 11:27; 3 Macc 1:8; compare Josephus, Ant, XII, iii, 4; XIII, v, 8; Meghillath Ta'anith 10), the head of which was the hereditary high priest. The court was called Gerousia, which in Greek always signifies an aristocratic body (see Westermann in Pauly's RE, III, 49). Subsequently this developed into the Sanhedrin. In the case of the Watchtower, who is that body’s council? JESUS CHRIST! Who are the Watchtower Governing Body, the Council of Elders, a council that local Elders just like in the first century would go to convene with, for spiritual matters of both spiritual and state. In the new order, the matters of State have been given to secular authority. The old order DID NOT consider Jesus Christ as the head of the congregation, while Christianity should. Therefore, the Watchtower Governing Body actions are their own responsibility and answer to God and Christ. Hebrews 13:17, 1 Timothy 3:1-7, Titus 1:7, Hebrews 13:7, Acts 20:28, Acts 6:3.
  21. This is what I meant, about Furuli loosing sight on his spiritual knowledge. When you combine secular education with that of spiritual education, people tend to be influenced by an obscured view. Once again, Jesus had no formal education in order to understand. However, there are many that will use Furuli's point of view to bluster their own stance against an organization they find themselves conflicted with. It serves no purpose to stay with such organization since in god's eyes, you have drifted away, and serve not as a crutch but a spiritual undesirable.
  22. You can continue to think what you like. I wouldn't put weight on a bragger. [R3765 : page 126] PASSED BEYOND THE VAIL. ANOTHER member of the Board of Trustees of the WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY, Brother William M. Wright, passed beyond the vail, into the Most Holy, we trust, on April 3rd. He was well known and dearly beloved by the friends of the Truth in various parts, but especially by the Allegheny company, with whom he has lived and met for the past eight years. He was buried from the Bible House chapel on the 5th. There is nothing you can teach me about the Watchtower history. The fact that "Schultz" concentrates on certain things, doesn't mean he knows everything. Take a Q!
  23. How disingenuous you continue to be since You are now starting your story from 1884 when Rutherford was an unknown. Keep this nonsense off. If you want to revise from Allegheny to New York. You don't have to play games. Yes they should see the false claims you make. However, you command too much loyalty here for anyone to care about the truth. Once again, playing with words. STRUCTURE! STRUCTURE! And Yes! The board of trustees, editorial committee, board of directors fit the bill of governing body. Maybe to you, it doesn't, but that doesn't stop the definition of it.
  24. Wrong, I used your own argument to bring to light how nonsensical it is. Therefore, your response is a poor one.
  25. The only one that has gotten the Watchtower history wrong is you. Just keep in mind Russell had a “board of trustees” in Allegheny and when he made his last will and testament, the Watchtower would be run by an “editorial committee” after his death. If we are to profess knowledge of Watchtower history, let it be with the strength of true knowledge. Any one of these could be considered a structured governing body. Before you respond with that's what I meant, or attempt to twist ideologies from President to secular law, with governing body to secular law, the Watchtower has had a structured theme just like the first century churches. Scholar don't lack intelligence, some lacks true knowledge. Is Furuli on the way to be disfellowshipped? Time will tell. If he is, it won't be because of his complaints, it will be because, he has lost his way into spiritual knowledge. Raymond Franz did the same thing with one exception, Ray's spiritual knowledge was supposed to have been higher. Therefore, let's not start with "grammar" again to point out things. No one here is spot on with grammar, accept it!

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