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César Chávez

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  1. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Thinking in WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?   
    I think I know what your trying to say..but perhaps I’ve got it wrong....
    I may very well have this wrong but Jehovah is in actual fact engaged in warfare now.
    Revelation 12:7then war broke out in heaven and Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.
    He was forced Into a state of warfare since Satan rebelled.
    Joshua 5:13,14 Identifies Michael as his Prince of Jehovah’s army....and also ...
    when the Israelites came out of Egypt they marched out in Military formation.
    even when the angel stood guard at the Garden of Eden ..he used a flaming sword ( weapon of war ) to block their re entering 
    warfare carried out by Jehovah is righteous ..
    warfare carried out by mere man for mans ruler ship over man is not righteous nor condoned by him, he would still consider that murder...as all warfare is governed and caused by his enemy Satan a man slayer And the ruler of the world at this time.
    He is only tolerating mans warfare or allowing it because it is not his appointed time....
    He uses humans as earthly agents to achieve his plan...when it suits him...and that involves warfare at times because Satan is using man to fight his war against Jehovah.
    Proverbs 16:4,,,Jehovah has made everything work for his purpose even the wicked for the day of disaster.
    At this present time Satan is the Prince of air and ruler of this world and he has chosen to fight by warfare.....he chose the weapon...not Jehovah .
    All warfare is murder unless it has been instructed to be carried out via the  Chief of His Armies Michael.
    Jehovah would never condone warfare amongst men,..and from what I have read he would consider all of those deaths a unwarranted evil murder.....
    I cannot find anything in the scriptures at this stage to suggest otherwise...but by all means if I’m wrong please correct me....it’s a interesting question and it’s deeper than most of us realize.
    Basically all those Jehovah instructed to be put to the sword were allowed hundreds of years to change and he allowed them to go to the fullness of their error....they had become irredeemable in his eyes...and hurting his people and name and his plan....and they would NEVER change.
     
     
  2. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?   
    If you truly believe that war is ok with God then I think you have a problem with your way of thinking.
    What God allows and what God likes / agrees with, are probably two totally different things. 
    We know that God does not involve Himself in the daily running of the world. The 'world' belongs to the Devil and God has no interest in 'putting little bits of it right'.   
    You say that God "has no objection to them .... executing wrongdoers"
    Do you have proof of that ? 
    Quote "People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder". "
    Quote " A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... "
    Then that same government that conscripts people into the armed forces is doing likewise. But I presume your disagree with conscription ? 
    I think the idea of being a Christian in one sense, is that we take Bible truth and learn from it. By doing so we try to live by Bible principles. One such principle is. 
    ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’s 38  This is the greatest and first commandment. 39  The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself.
    Jesus here quoted from the LAW given to Moses. But as Christians we should live by the principles of that law. 
    ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself. 
    So, you must decide who your neighbour is James ? 
    Could you be loving your neighbour if you were deliberately entering their land with intention of killing them ? 
    Stop being American James. If you are a true servant of God then you are no longer American.  Jesus said His Kingdom was no part of this world. So James, just a kind suggestion, stop being part of this world. 
     
     
     
  3. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Matthew9969 in Jehovah's Day is upon us...   
    20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
    21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
    This organization is already guilty of being false prophets, dude, your continuing the tradition of prophecying.
  4. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Jehovah's Day is upon us...   
    This is so funny Rambo.. Losing KHs   They have just built Warwick and now they are going to build Ramapo. So they obviously don't think Armageddon is very close. 
    Worship with spirit and truth ???  You are having a laugh. The GB only worship themselves and their multi-organisations which have $$$$ and real estate.. It's all for show. 
    Rambo you write so well and sound so serious, but you tell lies just like your Leaders. 
  5. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Witness in Jehovah's Day is upon us...   
    Then why do you prophesy a date?
    “The Sealing of the 144,000 is at Hand”
    The Body of Christ began to be collected on Pentecost 33 CE and will continue for two days of 1,000 years each before the third day begins 2034. 33CE + 2,000 yrs = 2033  You won't find 2034 in the Bible, but you won't find 33 CE either.  Yet, 33 CE was a 'timed event' that comes from the Messiah being cut off in the middle of that 70th week and Pentecost followed 50 days later.  They looked with their eyes but they could not see. We also get 1914 from the book of Daniel which was another 'timed event' that occurred.  But when you add the Last Days of Noah to the Last Days of this Age, what year keeps popping up?  1914 + 120 yrs = 2034  
     
  6. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Pudgy in IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER FROM A JW   
    The point of the above cartoon, for the agenda disabled, is that EVERYBODY has a different viewpoint of what "Hell" is ... it's not a monolithic block of belief ... even if in any group that "officially" believes one or another concept .... ALWAYS without proof (as it is SOOooo difficult to get reliable reports back ....).
    Many preachers now teach that "Hell" is eternal separation from God and his influence, now that we know what is below the Earth's crust in great detail.
    They teach that the human soul is immortal (somehow), and when you add the eternal separation from God ... MANY would consider that as Heaven!
    .... as a classic example, Las Vegas immediately comes to mind.
    As an aside: you can always tell "agenda driven thinking", as opposed to REAL thinking.
    Their downvotes are a spasm reflex ... irregardless of the topic or points raised.
  7. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to TrueTomHarley in IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER FROM A JW   
    I rather like the Gary Larsen cartoon of the Devil fuming that his 666 room has been mislabeled 999, and the workman explains that he must have been holding the blueprint upside down.
    Maybe that’s what hell is—not being able to find good help.
  8. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Pudgy in IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER FROM A JW   
    .... and I suspect Satan's ( the fantasy one with the horns and barbed tail ...) torment weapon of choice is not a pitchfork .... it's an accordion.
  9. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Pudgy in IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER FROM A JW   
    Matthew9969:
    Can you please tell me in detail how you visualize "hell", and what do you use as hard evidence to justify that belief?
    Inquiring canines want to know.
     

  10. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Matthew9969 in IN RESPONSE TO A LETTER FROM A JW   
    Doesn't sound to appealing in the bible for a state of being to be in, and they don't believe in hell.
  11. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to xero in Conscience individual and collective   
    Two things. (on the blood issue)
    1. No one can speak to all JW's and what they might or might not do in any given situation. As a group, you CAN crunch the numbers.
    2. The doctrine is biblical in the sense that it is derived from the bible, as are pretty much every attempt at concretizing a biblical principle by any individual. The question is nuanced w/regard to the application of the underlying principle.
    Some have little to no capacity for nuance. (some may suggest that "nuance=loophole")
  12. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Srecko Sostar in Conscience individual and collective   
    If you want to hear my opinion.  
    There are two types of conscience. First is Natural conscience (in biblical terminology) given by God. It is obtained by birth and inherited by genetics that began with Adam  and Eve. After birth, a child or in another situation an adult, comes under the influence of family, environment, society and their own choices.
    Second is Artificial conscience. For example, JW members have two types of conscience. The first one, natural, from God. The second type of conscience is called in the WTJWorg publication; "Bible-trained conscience." It is an artificially created conscience based on religious-ideological interpretations and doctrines. It has some positive aspects, but not always. For example, not greeting a former member of the Organization creates a certain conflict in the JW member. There is a conflict between two types of conscience: between the Natural Conscience given by God and the Artificially Created Conscience trained in the Organization.
  13. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to xero in Some people can't do the math.   
    Reminds me of the time I came to a door that had two no soliciting signs. I rang the doorbell and asked them if they'd like to buy another no soliciting sign. The guy laughed and took the magazines.
  14. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Srecko Sostar in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    There have always been and will be people (angels in heaven) who will answer questions/issues about God in various and opposite ways. 
    If these questions have already been answered, through those who have been or are now faithful to God, then there is no longer a need to prove it over and over again for every individual and for every new generation. Because that's how we could go on indefinitely. Every new born person on Earth should be able to choose between good and evil. So, according to such idea, evil and good would have to exist constantly in order for people to be able to choose and thus prove that they have "free will".
    According to the current interpretation, WTJWorg's answers to questions about evil and why God allows evil to exist to this day, questions about God and the Devil, Good and Evil could be debated as long as there are people. So infinitely into the future. Because every new generation thinks it knows more and knows better. And since no generation lives forever, the evidence dies with them. Written books and recorded films and which often times live longer than the people themselves are often not sufficient proof and lack the strength and persuasiveness for the new generation to accept all that people before it concluded about life and death, good and evil. 
  15. Downvote
  16. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to hgp in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    Even imagining these accusations to be one hundred true, can any sane person say, that this is in the least comparable to flying planes into the WTC?
     
  17. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to TrueTomHarley in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    First of all, it was Paul who said that, you dodo, not Jesus. And pass this bit of info along to KickFace, Srecko, and Witness, who also don’t know the first thing about the Bible, but who do know how to press an approval gratification button like a Pavlov lab rat.
    As to Jesus, what did he say?
    Why, you will be haled before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.  However, when they deliver you up, do not become anxious about how or what you are to speak; for what you are to speak will be given you in that hour;  (Matthew 10:18-19)
    I wonder what it is they would be given by Holy Spirit to say in that hour? What sort of words would be given “as a witness to them?”
    ”Your Honor, upon consultation with my attorney, PatientlySittingOnMyHands, I plead that you beat us and plunder all our belongings.”
    It all makes for a witness when you publicly expose a liar, and THAT is why you do it. If it leads to a reversal of unjust policies, that is icing on the cake. Word on the street is that, while the friends in Russia are obviously distressed at the villainies visited upon them, they also take consolation that their own undeserved suffering serves to focus world attention on Jehovah’s kingdom.
  18. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    You are correct. My mistake, although you only used that to sidetrack from my comment about atrocities. 
    And once again we have you, a pretend Christian, calling me names. 
    JWs would receive nothing by holy spirit, hence they use the Clergy Privilege excuse in court cases. 
     
    Then I fully hope that as many JWs, GB members et al, will be exposed as liars asap. Because that would be a true witness against false religious teachings and practices. 
  19. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    YES CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE JW ORG IS COMPLETELY COMPARABLE TO TERROISM. BUT TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU IT IS JUST COLLATERAL DAMAGE. 
     
     
  20. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Srecko Sostar in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    When you say; "given by HS to say", that is so close to idea of "been inspired by HS". Don't you think the same? Bible verse about such experiences in 1st century is about that "miracle". 
    ...for the holy spirit will teach you in that very hour the things you should say.” Lk 12:12 nwt
    ...for what you are to speak will be given you in that hour;+ 20  for the ones speaking are not just you, but it is the spirit of your Father that speaks by you. Mt 10:19,20 nwt
    You used the words of Jesus written in these two gospels. The manner and appearance of HS action has nothing to do with the intellect and learned things that an individual adopts through life. Here we are talking about the ability of HS to act directly on a person at a given moment. This is also called “inspiration, influence, leadership, guidance”. And it happens outside the action of our will and consent or demand.
  21. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Srecko Sostar in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    Please, go on JWorg library and you will find publications that support conclusion and speak clearly how, in fact, JHVH will destroy all elements of "Old System". 
     Where does JW's tolerance of members of other religions begin and end, also about tolerance of own members in JW organization who changing their "spiritual vision/view"? How do you show tolerance for different religious beliefs or opposing beliefs in general? Massimo Introvigne is in focus here, about his interpretations of "tolerance" toward WTJWorg and defense of JW members in Russia and elsewhere.
  22. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    Would falsely predicting Armageddon on many occasions just to frighten people into the Orgs, and would stating that a person MUST BE a baptised JW to be saved, count toward atrocities ? 
    Would deliberately misusing the Romans 13 scripture to give power and authority to the Leaders of the Orgs be classed as an atrocity ?
    And would the Leaders giving orders to Elders, and the Elders obeying such orders, to keep CSA and known pedophiles information secret inside the JW Org, qualify as atrocities ? 
    Well I think it would, especially to those people seriously affected by such actions. 
     
  23. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to JW Insider in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    Yes. His general goal is always to minimize any negative press about NRMs. He lists "Mostly Against [Their Own] Members" as one of those minimizing factors. This is why I said:
    If in politics, for example, a dictator were to bomb or gas a part of their own population, the world would point out how terrible it was that "he gassed his own people." It would not be considered a factor that minimizes guilt.
  24. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to TrueTomHarley in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    Let us take this sneering remark seriously for a moment.
    In the greater scheme of things, what really was Voltaire? A brief point of relative light, but also a bridge connecting one train wreck to another.
    The train wreck of religious intolerance he battled all his life, and to a significant degree, he won that battle.
    But in a very short time, even during his lifetime, atheists usurped his work to provide underpinnings of their own rising movement—another train wreck. Voltaire was an initial hero of the French Revolution, but in short order, as inferior atheistic thinkers took over, he was downgraded as too moderate. Many of his own followers (Voltaire himself was dead by then) fell victim to the guillotine themselves when they resisted the fanatical excesses of those atheists.
    Meanwhile, the light that he offered was but relative, in that he refused any revelatory look at God, and thus missed out on solving the problem of evil, since that is only solved through such searching. He may even have represented “one step forward, two steps back.” The step forward is to win against intolerance. The step back is to repudiate the means though which God gives explanation of himself AND to smoothe the way for atheism. Maybe even three steps back, for in declaring the issue of evil insoluble after grappling with it the best part of his life, he plants the notion in the educated people that adore him that it actually is. 
    So is he required reading for JW members? No. He is an elective. Read him if you will. It will be beneficial if you do. But by no means is he indispensable to having one’s head on straight. Make him the centerpiece of your education, and it all but guarantees you will not have your head on straight. The JW organization will never recommend that members read Voltaire. Nor will they ever disparage him, at least no more than I have done above. They would have members direct their primary focus on what does deliver with regard to life’s more important things.
     
  25. Downvote
    César Chávez reacted to JW Insider in Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details   
    Just a quick follow-up on the above Cesnur/Introvigne source: https://www.cesnur.org/2019/turin_introvigne_scientology.pdf
    I don't like it that when there is violence perpetrated by NRMs, he is quick to grasp at a straw that effectively says: "Well this isn't so bad because it's usually only members of the NRM who are killed."
    His contradiction is clear in the following arguments:
    However, it was recognized that hate speech, i.e. advocating physical violence and inciting others to commit violent acts, is also a real form of violence
    He usually uses this argument as a very one-sided point to say that the NRMs are nearly always victims. But note some of the following statements, such as the one that appears right next to it. Note the word "most" which I highlighted:
    Above: Japan’s Shoko Asahara(1955-2018) ordered the murder of opponents of his group Aum Shinrikyo before organizing a deadly gas attack with sarin gas in the Tokyo subway in 1995, although most members of his movements ignored his criminal activities.
    And elsewhere, this lame and strained "defense:"
    when devotees of Osho Rajneesh (1931–1990) infected with salmonella the salad bars of local restaurants in Oregon’s Wasco County, where they had established their commune, Rajneeshpuram. Rather than mystical, the purpose was mundane, as it was aimed at preventing local voters from participating in the election, so that the commune’s own candidates would win
    At least he admits the occurrences but I still find his following argument embarrassing:
    Mostly Against Members
    While groups such as Synanon or Aum Shinrikyo carried out murderous attacks against their opponents or society at large, looking at the number of casualties overwhelmingly the violence of certain NRMs targeted their own members
    With few exceptions, members of the respective movements rather than outsiders died in the suicides and homicides involving the Peoples Temple (Jonestown, Guyana, 1978), the Order of the Solar Temple (Switzerland, France, and Quebec, Canada, 1994–1997), Heaven’s Gate (Rancho Santa Fe, California, 1997), and the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (Uganda 2000)
    ... [removed the picture]...
    Above: Charred remains of members of the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, a Ugandan NRM that self-destroyed itself in 2000 in a frenzy of homicides and suicides, which made more than 700 victims
     
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