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KevinM

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  1. When Dan 8:20-23 says four kings sprang up from Greece, this already happened according to some people “20 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Meʹdi·a and Persia. 21 The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king. 22 As for the horn that was broken, so that four stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power. 23 “And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up. . .” (Da 8:20-23) Rest assured i won’t be able to reply
  2. Still cannot reply to my topics! 

    1. admin

      admin

      Anyone else having this problem?

  3. This topic is open for discussion, but I was not able to make any replies in my own topic I posted last week > Whats the meaning of Matthew 24:15? . OR I can’t figure out how, (I requested support and have not received any yet). Still cannot reply to my comments Feb 23, 2022 8:11 Am At Daniel 11:40, the battle between the “king of the north” (KOTN) and “the king of the south”(KOTS) is marked by the angel’s reference to “the time of the end”. When does this particular “time of the end” begin? I appreciate some of the conclusions Jehovah Witnesses have made in regard the king of the north, but not all. Traditionally, Jehovah’s Witnesses have concluded the phrase “the time of the end” at Daniel 11:40 is a reference to particular events that occur during “the last days” which culminate in the king of the north’s end. JW’s publications( see below) comment on Daniel 11:40 and include events that occurred right after October 1914, as well as events that occurred during the second world war and those that lead up to the great tribulation. Based on this I believe “the time of the end” referred to at Daniel 11:40 is the when the appointed times of the nation’s/gentiles ends in 1914 and marks a battle for dominance by the kings of the north and south. It also seems to include two times of assault upon ‘Daniel’s people’ by the king of the north. (Compare Da 11:41; 11:44-12:1) JW’s have identified ‘Daniel’s people’ as particularly the “anointed” but this seems to include the “other sheep” as well. Please, I request that we not get into a discussion on the end of the gentile times (Oct 1914) so as to not distract from the point of this topic *** it-2 p. 1103 Time of the End *** / *** it-1 pp. 134-135 Appointed Times of the Nations *** / *** dp chap. 16 pp. 276-277 The Contending Kings Near Their End *** / *** w93 11/1 pp. 19-20 The Final Victory / *** w54 12/1 p. 710 The “Time of the End” *** The publications of JW’s already referenced, showed the assault of the bible students during WWI was as a consequence of this battle, but they did not attribute what happen during WWI to an assault by the KOTN. (Da l 11:40-43) Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the bible students initially identified Anglo America as king of the north because of persecution that began in Britain and Europe which climaxed in America in mid-1918. Yet, because of the way Nazi Germany behaved during WWII perhaps JW’s felt Germany followed by the Soviet Union better matched the description of the king of the north rather than Anglo America. The reality is Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union have passed off the scene of this world, being defeated by Anglo America and its ideologies. They were losers not winners. Really no world power is ever described in the literature of JW’s as dominating over Anglo America. They consistently describe Anglo America as dominating the world because of the way they viewed prophecy regarding that duel world power. For example w12 6/15 pp. 16-17 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place says: “the Anglo-American World Power will not be replaced by some future world power”; … the Anglo-American World Power is the one that will be dominating when the “stone” representing God’s Kingdom hits the feet of the image. And referring to the United Nations that same article stated: “Any power it has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. (Rev. 17:10, 11)”. So in view of the success of Anglo America, wouldn’t it be reasonable to identify that world power as king of the north? I have to wonder why Jehovah’s Witnesses have not already come to this conclusion. Upon close examination Daniel 11:42, 43 may reveal how king of the north eventually conquers the king of the south, which Jehovah’s Witnesses may have failed to appreciate because of a flawed identity of the King of the North. For example: JW’s acknowledge that Anglo America will be the dominating world power right until the end and so conclude that the king of the south as Anglo America cannot be conquered. Hence, they identified Nazi Germany and then the Soviet Union as the king of the north even after both of those world powers were destroyed or conquered by Anglo America while awaiting some other future political identity to fill the shoes of the king of the north. (Now I believe they view it as Russia, please correct me if I’m wrong on this) However Daniel 11:42 seems to indicate the king of the south is conquered by the north and its precious resources become KOTN’s spoil. For this reason it is not at all farfetched to view Anglo America as the world power who fits the description of the king of the north in Daniel 11:40-12:1 If Anglo America is the king of the north, then Daniel 11:40-43 revealed how “the land of the Decoration” (recognized by JW’s as the spiritual estate of the anointed remnant) was assaulted in a significant manner by KOTN shortly after the times of the gentile’s ends in 1914 as occurred in America during WWI. This would mean the later part of the passage, Daniel 11:44, 45 is depicting a return by the king of the north near his end into “the land of the Decoration”. Could this be associated with Anglo America using the UN disgusting thing to cause desolation to ‘Daniel’s people’, eventually standing that disgusting thing in a holy place associated with ‘Daniel’s people’? (Compare Da 11:44, 45; 12:1 and Mt 24:15) There are hints in the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses toward this conclusion. w15 5/15 p. 29 par. 4-p. 30 par. 1 Questions From Readers associated the “king of the north” with a future assault on God’s people by “Gog of Magog” (Ezekiel chapter 38) and the ‘ten kings’ of Revelation chapter 17, indicating the likelihood the king of the north will be leading a coalition of nations against Gods people. Compare this to what was already quoted above in the w12 6/15 pp. 16-17 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place, there Anglo America is depicted as the key backer of the UN and is viewed as the dominant world power. Consider too, as the following reference from re chap. 28 pp. 187-188 pars. 5-6 Contending With Two Ferocious Beasts points out; According to Jehovah’s witnesses Anglo America is identified in prophecy as the 7th head of the wild beast because it ‘takes the lead in oppressing God’s people’. These leave obvious clues that identify Anglo America as the king of the north The direction of the KOTN and Anglo America toward the Decoration is very similar There is something else that is very telling and indicated that Anglo America is the king of the north. It has to do with the direction of ‘the small horn that grows very great’ and the direction of the King of the North. (Da 8:9-25; Da 11:40-12:1) The prophecy in Daniel chapter 8 about a “horn, a small one, that grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration” has been identified as Anglo America in JW’s publications. (Da 8:9) To verify this see dp chap. 10 p. 173 par. 18 Who Can Stand Against the Prince of Princes? There it said: “The small horn that became a fierce political power in the “time of the end,” then, is the Anglo-American World Power.” Note according to Daniel 8:9-25 Anglo America is advancing from the north and from the west toward the south and east and toward the symbolic “Decoration”. Now compare the above to Daniel 11:40-12:1 and note the direction of the king of the north. Like Anglo America, the king of the north too is coming from the north traveling south into “the land of the Decoration”. Notice that after initially entering the land of Decoration the king of the north continues moving southwest out of Israel toward Egypt (the traditional land of the king of the south), and appears to conquer the King of the south, gaining control of all its precious resources. Later, after conquering Egypt “reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him” and by driving his army northeast out of Egypt, he returns and enters the land of decoration a second time to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration”. (Da 11:44, 45) When he returns to the land of the decoration he camps his army directly west of Jerusalem, with the intention of heading directly east into Jerusalem to conquer the city. Daniel’s prophecy shows “the king of the north” and the ‘small horn that grows very great’ (Anglo America) advance in a similar general direction. They are advancing from the north and west traveling south and east toward the “Decoration” or temple. Does this not show the KOTN and Anglo America represent a dominating Western World power? The underlying reason why JW’s may have failed to comprehend how the king of the north is pictured as conquering the king of the south in Daniel 11:42-43 is because they mistakenly viewed Anglo America as the king of the south even though they admit the bible does not depict Anglo America as being conquered and supplanted by another world power. However if the king of the south is eventually subdued and conquered that can only leave Anglo America to be identified as the KOTN. This seems like a relatively simple conclusion to reach. If Jehovah Witnesses continue to advocate that these prophecies of Daniel depict Anglo America as king of the south in a battle with the king of the north (which they identified as Germany and then the Soviet Union and now perhaps Russian) to conquer the other and the land of the Decoration, that argument is not sufficient enough to explain why both Anglo America and the king of the north are pictured in scripture as coming from the same general direction, from the north, driving there military south and east toward the Decoration. Nor would it explain how the king of the north is pictured as eventually being victorious over the south and ruling over the treasures of Egypt. More importantly, if they continue to view Anglo America as king of the south, the description at Daniel 11:40-45 would indicate another world power gains dominance over the world and “takes the lead in oppressing God’s people” which would be out of harmony with what they have already said concerning Anglo America’s domination as the seventh world power, as shown in the references quoted earlier. The question is: When the king of the north returns to Israel to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration” does this part of the prophecy depict the time when the UN disgusting thing causes desolation to “a holy place” associated with ‘Daniel’s people’? (Da 11:45: 12:1) This is very plausible. We can see many similarities when we compare the king of the north’s actions in Daniel 11:44, 45 when “he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration” to what scripture reveals in Daniel 8:23-25 about Anglo America’s aggression against the holy ones in the “final part of their kingdom” when as “a fierce looking king” he “will stand up” and “bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones” and “he will even standing up against the Prince of princes.” After a close examination of the language Daniel 11:44-12:1 and Daniel 8:9-25, it appears that both are speaking about the same thing, complimenting each other and providing greater insight into what leads up to “the standing in a holy place”? (Mt 24:15)
  4. Cant seem to reply to my own topic, (or cant figure out how) and yes i was signed in why trying to reply. 

    1. admin

      admin

      So far you are the only one with this reported problem. Thanks for letting me know.

       

      p.s. - All JW / religious posts go in the JW Clubs.... not on the main forum page. 

  5. Right after talking to his disciples about when “the end will come” at Matthew 24:13, 14 Jesus warned of a time when his followers would “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” after which they were to “begin fleeing” from Jerusalem and the surrounding district of Judea “to the mountains”. (Mt 24:14-16) This was a signal that the end was imminent. For the most part, all can agree how and when this occurred in the first century but what about our understanding of the modern day fulfillment? Do we understand it completely? What prophecies “spoken about by Daniel the prophet” was Jesus referring to in regard to the modern day fulfillment of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place? There are only a four prophecies of Daniel that could apply to Jesus description of a “disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place”. Daniel 8:9-25 is a prophecy that Jehovah’s Witnesses applied to Anglo America, starting first with Britain as a “horn, a small one” then when joined by America this horn “grows very great toward the south, toward the east and toward the decoration”. Then Anglo America is said to become responsible for a “transgression causing desolation” upon God’s people “to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on.” (Da 8:9-25) This was applied to the persecution of Jehovah’s witnesses starting in Nazi Germany and then persecution expanding to engulf the British Commonwealth and America during WWII. However, could this prophecy in Daniel 8:9-25 apply to a time when Anglo America stands the UN disgusting thing “in a holy place”? If so, does this passage show that this “holy place” is associated with God’s people? Another prophecy that could apply is Daniel 11:30-35, this prophecy is regarding the king of the north. In this prophecy he is said to “hurl denunciations against the holy covenant” and then he returns or “will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.” (Da 11:30b, 31) Jehovah’s Witnesses have applied this prophecy in a few ways. It is applied to Nazi Germany’s assault of Gods people during WWII and it is also expanded to include the installation of the UN as the disgusting thing in 1945 as well as the intrusion into their organization by Soviet spy’s during the Cold War. Is it possible that Daniel 11:30c shows that the king of the north returns to assault Gods people again by standing the UN disgusting thing in a holy place? (Da 11:31) Also do to the similarities in the language used in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 8:9-25 show a possibility they are describing the same thing and does this suggest Anglo America is the king of the north? Another prophecy in Daniel that could relate to the standing in a holy place is Daniel 11:40-12:1. According to the prophecy of Daniel 11:40-43 the king of the north “storms” against the king of the south and “enter(s) into the lands and sweep(s) through like a flood and also enter(s) into the land of the Decoration”. Again this has been applied by Jehovah’s Witnesses to events surrounding the persecution of God’s people during WWII particularly in Nazi Germany and then by the Soviet Union during the Cold War (because these world powers were viewed as the king of the north). Yet according to the latter part of the prophecy in Daniel 11:44-12:1 after conquering Egypt (a symbol for both the world and the king of the south) the king of the north will “go out (of Egypt) in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction” and will return to Israel to “plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration”. Jehovah’s Witnesses view this as a future and final attack on the estate of spiritual Israel by the King of the north. Armageddon or God’s war was said to be triggered by this attack which is said to come at the end of the great tribulation after false religion is destroyed. Because of reasoning in this manner, Jehovah’s Witnesses have never associated this final attack by the king of the north with “the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place”. (Mt 24:15) Also they view the “standing in a holy place” as an attack upon false religion and not an attack directed at Jehovah’s Witnesses. But does the scriptural evidence within the context of Daniel 11:44-12:1 point to a time when the land of Decoration (a symbol of spiritual Israel) is invaded by the king of the north near his end? Also if Anglo America is actually the king of the north would such an understanding harmonize with the other prophecies of Daniel already mentioned above and would that enhance understanding of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place? Daniel 12:5-12 is a vision that surrounds a period of 3 ½ years that involves “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people”. (Da 12:5-7) This was viewed as something that occurred to the bible students during WWI, which climaxed when eight prominent members were imprisoned, headquarters was shut down and the constant feature (the preaching work) was said to be removed. The date set for this 3 ½ year time period is December 1914 to June 1918. Daniel 12:11, mentions a time period of “1290 days” that occurs when “the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place”. Jehovah’s Witnesses used this verse to explain that after the preaching was virtually stopped and the League of Nations was proposed in Jan 1919 there was “1290 days” in which “anointed Christians awaken and progress spiritually”. The “1335 days” of Daniel 12:12 is said to follow on the heels of the 1290 days, and is a time when the “anointed Christians attain a happy state”. However could it be possible that the application of Daniel 12:5-12 has not been fully understood and that it may extend to the time when “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” is “standing in a holy place”, a holy place associated with God’s holy people? All four of the above mentioned prophecies picture either a ‘profaning’ or a ‘transgressing’ of the temple sanctuary (According to Jehovah’s Witnesses these are symbols of the condition of the anointed congregation), an ‘entering’ into “the land of the decoration” (a symbol of the spiritual estate of anointed remnant) or “the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people” (depicting persecution and stoppage in their preaching work). In all four of these prophecies, Jehovah’s Witnesses view the anointed as either “holy people”, “holy ones”, the “sanctuary” (Decoration / temple), “the land of the decoration” (spiritual Israel) or “the holy mountain of decoration” (Jerusalem). In view of this it’s hard to deny that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place” is something directed against or directly affects God’s “holy people” in the manner described by Daniel's prophecy. (Mt 24:15)

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