Evacuated

Can't find myself saying that anywhere. Now this is interesting. "Honestly now... you really don't take money for what you do?" In the early 1980s, when I was pioneering in a predominantly Greek Cypriot populated area, I (and many other witnesses) had exactly the same words directed at us a number of times!. Many of the Greek Cypriot men particularly were convinced we were paid for preaching and made money from getting converts. Later, some who became witnesses revealed that they were told this by the priests in their church who objected to our preaching work in "their" community. The inference is as baseless now as it was then. Not sure what point is made here, but my impression is that the dipped bread identified Judas as the traitor. Other pieces of bread shared by Jesus were likely undipped. This appears to be out of context and only a partial, condensed quote, so I am not clear on the purpose of its inclusion. Anyway, before this thread gets too far from the original question. It seems that the debate on the nature of the bread and the timing of this meal is pretty old. Alfred Edersheim appears to refer to it as ongoing in his book, Jesus the Messiah, first published in 1883 (p481-482 in the 13th impression). I am satisfied for now with the points made in w73 3/15 p.175 - Is the Date for Celebrating Passover Important to Christians? and the article Preparation - Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 p.676 which I quoted in earlier posts. These provide sufficient information for me so far to conclude that Jesus used unleavened bread as an emblem in his instituting of the Lord's evening meal, directly after the Passover meal on Nisan 14, and that his followers today are correct in following his example and instruction on this matter. For me, the original question, as raised, is sufficiently resolved, the answer, basically, being... No! So I will withdraw from the thread for now, although I will note any further substantiated contributions to the discussion.

Jesus explains his reason for dipping the bread: (John 13:25, 26) "So the latter (John) leaned back on the chest of Jesus and said to him: “Lord, who is it?”  Jesus answered: “It is the one to whom I will give the piece of bread that I dip.” So after dipping the bread, he took it and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·carʹi·ot." Eaten and drunk for the most part I expect. Regarding the morning of Jesus’ trial and appearance before Pilate, which was in the morning period of Nisan 14 (the Passover day having begun the evening before), John 19:14 says: “Now it was preparation of the passover.” (NW, KJ, Da) Some commentators have understood this to mean “preparation for the passover,” and certain translations so render the verse. (AT, We, CC) This, though, suggests that the Passover had not yet been celebrated, whereas the Gospel accounts explicitly show that Jesus and the apostles had celebrated it the night before. (Lu 22:15; Mt 26:18-20; Mr 14:14-17) Christ perfectly carried out the regulations of the Law, including the requirement to celebrate the Passover on Nisan 14. (Ex 12:6; Le 23:5.) The day of Jesus’ trial and death could be viewed as the “preparation of the passover” in the sense that it was the preparation for the seven-day Festival of Unfermented Cakes that began the next day. Because of their closeness on the calendar, the entire festival itself was often included in the term “Passover.” And the day after Nisan 14 was always a Sabbath; additionally, in 33 C.E., Nisan 15 fell on the regular Sabbath, making the day a “great” or double Sabbath. Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 p.676

No. Just following the master: Luke 20:3.

Ann O'Maly Thanks a lot for the detail on that. Highly interesting.

Brothers want to hold a meeting based on spiritual activity related to their assignment such as elders/ministerial servants; elders; pioneers etc.? No problem for me. Private get together between small group where family heads share spiritual appointment whether pioneers or servants? No problem for me. Elder/Ministerial servant families only social event? Not for me. I would decline on the basis of para 12 page 9 in the study article in Jan 15 2016 Watchtower alone: 12 Do we extend hospitality to others by inviting them to our home for a meal or for some association and encouragement? We would not need to make elaborate or expensive arrangements to be considered hospitable; nor would we want to invite only those who might repay us in some way. (Luke 10:42; 14:12-14) Our goal should be to encourage, not to impress! ... Hopefully whoever organises this occasion for over 50 brothers is taking on board all the society's counsel on large social gatherings.

My experience of the vast majority of disfellowshipped ones who are courageous and humble enough to attend the Memorial is that they are well appraised of their position and do their best to avoid any embarrassing interaction.

http://www.jw-archive.org/post/135869785598/when-was-the-last-time-our-memorial-was-not-within

Must be your own.

Adjustment in italics. Thanks Ann O'Maly What's the detail on that one?

Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης When did the other Israelites celebrate the Passover?

Great Crowd renders service INSIDE the Sanctuary? was the question. Anyway, your discussion highlights the great privilege extended to the great crowd and the value Jehovah places on their integrity, thanks to the atoning power of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Interestingly, the brother giving the public talk at the meeting I attended this Sunday past had a beard. Not an eyelid was batted!

I do not know about the big debate, but it would seem to hinge on whether the Memorial meal Jesus instituted took place immediately after he ate the Passover Meal on Nisan 14. at which clearly ONLY unleavened bread would have been available in keeping with the instruction in Ex. 13 6-10. So establishing that Jesus' instituting of the Lord's evening meal took place after the Passover meal and within the period of time covered by the instruction on leaven at Ex 13.13:6-10 will settle the debate for me. There is clearly a substantial difference this year (2016) between the modern timing of the Jewish Passover and the Memorial of Jesus death. However, it seems the practice (since the 4th Century) of adding an extra month, Adar 1, every so often to realign the Jewish lunar calendar with the solar calendar puts the modern Jewish calendar out of sync with our Memorial date, particularly in 2016. This well explained here: http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm#Links There are other factors effecting the date. The timing of Nisan 1 by the sight of the new moon in Jerusalem rather than the astronomical calculation can mean a difference of 18-30 hours, placing our reckoning of Nisan 14 up to 2 days later. Also, the timing of the Passover Sacrifice as taking place between sunset and darkness of Nisan 14 (as substantiated by Ex 12:6 and De.16:6) differs from those Jewish authorities who place the Passover meal later, as occuring on Nisan 15. Our calculations are based on the best evidence for the system used when the memorial was instituted by Jesus in the 1st Century, rather than the more recent Jewish methods. Other references include: WT 1 Feb 1976 p73 The modern Jewish calendar determines the beginning of their month of Nisan by the astronomical new moon. However, usually it is eighteen hours or more later when the first sliver of the crescent of the new moon becomes visible in Jerusalem. Each year, in recent times, the governing body of Jehovah’s witnesses has determined the actual new moon that becomes visible in Jerusalem, which is the way the first of Nisan was determined in Biblical times. For this reason often there has been a difference of a day or two between the Memorial date of Jehovah’s witnesses and the Nisan 14 date according to the modern Jewish calendar. *** w73 3/15 p. 175 Is the Date for Celebrating Passover Important to Christians? *** Is the Date for Celebrating Passover Important to Christians? JESUS CHRIST, the founder of Christianity, instituted the memorial of his death (the Lord’s Evening Meal) on a day marked by an annual observance, the Jewish Passover. This being the case, reasonably the Lord’s Evening Meal would also be an annual celebration. Hence the date on which the Passover was held would determine when the memorial of Jesus’ death should be commemorated. Christians therefore find it of more than passing interest to ascertain when Passover was observed. It is important, for they are under command to keep the memorial of Jesus’ death.—Luke 22:19. According to the Jewish calendar, the anniversary date for the celebration of Passover falls in the month of Nisan. Regarding the lamb or goat that was to be eaten during the course of the Passover meal, Jehovah God commanded: “It must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings.”—Ex. 12:6. What does the expression “two evenings” mean? Does it have any bearing on the date for celebrating Passover? Jewish tradition generally presents the “two evenings” as the time from noon (when the sun begins to decline) on until sundown. As the Israelites measured their day from sundown to sundown, this would mean that the Passover victim was slaughtered prior to the sundown with which Nisan 14 ended and Nisan 15 began. If this were correct, the Passover meal itself would have been eaten in Egypt on Nisan 15 and the Israelites would not have left Egypt until that date. But the traditional Jewish view regarding the “two evenings” does not harmonize with the Bible account at Exodus 12:17, 18. There we read: “You must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring your armies out from the land of Egypt. And you must keep this day throughout your generations as a statute to time indefinite. In the first month [Nisan or Abib], on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes.” Had the Passover victim been slaughtered as Jewish tradition holds, namely, in the last quarter of the fourteenth day, which ended at sundown, then the Israelites could not have left Egypt that “very day.” The event that enabled them to depart was the death of the Egyptian firstborn. But, as this took place at midnight, it would not have come until about six hours after Nisan 14 ended.—Ex. 12:29. So we must look to a source other than Jewish tradition to find out when the Passover victim was sacrificed and then eaten. We need to examine the Bible itself to determine the significance of the expression “two evenings.” Directing our attention to Deuteronomy 16:6, we note that in the case of the first evening a time beginning considerably later than noon is involved. The instructions to Israel here read: “You should sacrifice the passover in the evening as soon as the sun sets.” So the first of the “two evenings” manifestly designates the time when the sun sets, whereas the second evening would correspond to the time when the sun’s reflected light or afterglow ends and darkness falls. This explanation of the two evenings was also offered by the Spanish rabbi Aben-Ezra (1092-1167 C.E.), as well as by the Samaritans and the Karaite Jews. It is the view presented by such scholars as Michaelis, Rosenmueller, Gesenius, Maurer, Kalisch, Knobel and Keil. Viewing the Biblical evidence as a whole, we can see that the Passover victim was slaughtered at sunset, at the start of Nisan 14, and the meal itself was eaten later that evening. Whereas the Jews of today, in keeping with tradition, eat the Passover meal on Nisan 15, their practice is not supported by the Holy Scriptures. The correct anniversary date is Nisan 14. Thus Jesus Christ must have eaten the Passover with his disciples on Nisan 14 “after evening had fallen” and thereafter instituted the Lord’s Evening Meal. (Mark 14:17; Matt. 26:20-28) Jehovah’s Christian witnesses therefore observe the memorial of Christ’s death on its anniversary date after sundown on Nisan 14. So with regard to the question, I am satisfied that Jesus used unleavened bread as an emblem in the Lord's evening meal and that his followers to day are correct in following his example and instruction on this matter.

Seems the practice (since the 4th Century) of adding an extra month, Adar1, every so often to realign the Jewish lunar calendar with the solar calendar puts the modern Jewish calendar out of sync with our Memorial date, particularly in 2016. This well explained here: http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm#Links There are other factors effecting the date. The timing of Nisan 1 by the sight of the new moon in Jerusalem rather than the astronomical calculation can mean a difference of 18-30 hours, placing our reckoning of Nisan 14 up to 2 days later. Also, the timing of the Passover Sacrifice as taking place between sunset and darkness of Nisan 14 (as substantiated by Ex 12:6 and De.16:6) differs from those Jewish authorities who place the Passover meal later, as occuring on Nisan 15. Our calculations are based on the best evidence for the system used when the memorial was instituted by Jesus in the 1st Century, rather than the more recent Jewish methods. Other references include: WT 1 Feb 1976 p73 The modern Jewish calendar determines the beginning of their month of Nisan by the astronomical new moon. However, usually it is eighteen hours or more later when the first sliver of the crescent of the new moon becomes visible in Jerusalem. Each year, in recent times, the governing body of Jehovah’s witnesses has determined the actual new moon that becomes visible in Jerusalem, which is the way the first of Nisan was determined in Biblical times. For this reason often there has been a difference of a day or two between the Memorial date of Jehovah’s witnesses and the Nisan 14 date according to the modern Jewish calendar. *** w73 3/15 p. 175 Is the Date for Celebrating Passover Important to Christians? *** Is the Date for Celebrating Passover Important to Christians? JESUS CHRIST, the founder of Christianity, instituted the memorial of his death (the Lord’s Evening Meal) on a day marked by an annual observance, the Jewish Passover. This being the case, reasonably the Lord’s Evening Meal would also be an annual celebration. Hence the date on which the Passover was held would determine when the memorial of Jesus’ death should be commemorated. Christians therefore find it of more than passing interest to ascertain when Passover was observed. It is important, for they are under command to keep the memorial of Jesus’ death.—Luke 22:19. According to the Jewish calendar, the anniversary date for the celebration of Passover falls in the month of Nisan. Regarding the lamb or goat that was to be eaten during the course of the Passover meal, Jehovah God commanded: “It must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings.”—Ex. 12:6. What does the expression “two evenings” mean? Does it have any bearing on the date for celebrating Passover? Jewish tradition generally presents the “two evenings” as the time from noon (when the sun begins to decline) on until sundown. As the Israelites measured their day from sundown to sundown, this would mean that the Passover victim was slaughtered prior to the sundown with which Nisan 14 ended and Nisan 15 began. If this were correct, the Passover meal itself would have been eaten in Egypt on Nisan 15 and the Israelites would not have left Egypt until that date. But the traditional Jewish view regarding the “two evenings” does not harmonize with the Bible account at Exodus 12:17, 18. There we read: “You must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring your armies out from the land of Egypt. And you must keep this day throughout your generations as a statute to time indefinite. In the first month [Nisan or Abib], on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes.” Had the Passover victim been slaughtered as Jewish tradition holds, namely, in the last quarter of the fourteenth day, which ended at sundown, then the Israelites could not have left Egypt that “very day.” The event that enabled them to depart was the death of the Egyptian firstborn. But, as this took place at midnight, it would not have come until about six hours after Nisan 14 ended.—Ex. 12:29. So we must look to a source other than Jewish tradition to find out when the Passover victim was sacrificed and then eaten. We need to examine the Bible itself to determine the significance of the expression “two evenings.” Directing our attention to Deuteronomy 16:6, we note that in the case of the first evening a time beginning considerably later than noon is involved. The instructions to Israel here read: “You should sacrifice the passover in the evening as soon as the sun sets.” So the first of the “two evenings” manifestly designates the time when the sun sets, whereas the second evening would correspond to the time when the sun’s reflected light or afterglow ends and darkness falls. This explanation of the two evenings was also offered by the Spanish rabbi Aben-Ezra (1092-1167 C.E.), as well as by the Samaritans and the Karaite Jews. It is the view presented by such scholars as Michaelis, Rosenmueller, Gesenius, Maurer, Kalisch, Knobel and Keil. Viewing the Biblical evidence as a whole, we can see that the Passover victim was slaughtered at sunset, at the start of Nisan 14, and the meal itself was eaten later that evening. Whereas the Jews of today, in keeping with tradition, eat the Passover meal on Nisan 15, their practice is not supported by the Holy Scriptures. The correct anniversary date is Nisan 14. Thus Jesus Christ must have eaten the Passover with his disciples on Nisan 14 “after evening had fallen” and thereafter instituted the Lord’s Evening Meal. (Mark 14:17; Matt. 26:20-28) Jehovah’s Christian witnesses therefore observe the memorial of Christ’s death on its anniversary date after sundown on Nisan 14.

Not sure what the question is here?

2012 - Gen 49:27. "Benjamin...will divide spoil". Specfically applied to Esther and Mordecai (Benjaminites) receivingHaman's estate as "spoil". Watchtower, January 1, 2012, p.29. 2012 - Dan 2:44. "All these kingdoms" refers specifically to the governments represented in the symbolic image, not all present day governments as formerly explained. Watchtower, June 15, 2012, p.17. 2012 - Dan 8:24. The "ruin" caused by the "fierce-looking king" specifically applied to scope of Anglo-American military destruction i.e dropping of two atomic bombs. Watchtower, June 15, 2012, p.16. 2012 - Dan 2::41-43. "toes" of the symbolic image held as having no separate prophetic significance apart from what is represented by the feet of the image. The number 10 is not mentioned here. Formerly held to be the final conglomeration of nations at the time of Armageddon. Watchtower, June 15, 2012, p.16. 2012 - Emergence of seventh world power. Emergence of Anglo-American world power seen in USA/British partnership formed during World War 1, 1914-18 CE. Formerly timed with ascendancy of British Empire in 1763 CE. Watchtower, June 15, 2012, p.15,19. There are additional examples listed on pages 26-27 of the 2016 Yearbook

Could you clarify the actual question please?

Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης I have noted your references and the arguments made by the various critics you recommend. The observations are interesting and informative where factual. The conclusions and assertions made remain the perception of those critics however, and I do not find them in the least convincing. For me, they remain simply, allegations. I can see in the scriptural record similarities to the many ways in which God's servants in the past were assisted by secular authorities in the carrying out of Jehovah's purposes. Ezra and Nehemiah's relationship to the authorities in their day being classic examples. (I would submit both books in their entirety as references here). This record(for me) serves simply to demonstrate the inability of Satan to thwart Jehovah in that the very organisations representing his (Satan's) rulership are used, when required, to accomplish Jehovah's purposes. The passage of scripture in Matthew 12:22-30 fits well for me in response to these allegations.

This is a ridiculous allegation. There is no promoting of the UN in these articles any more than the apostle Paul promoted the Stoic poet Aratus in his speech on the Areopagus at Acts 17:28. These WT articles merely reference the attempts of the UN to promote beneficial strategies for the human family, and highlight it's failure to accomplish what can only be achieved through the administration of Jehovah's kingdom, the only viable government for this earth. These assertions, and others like them, are filling up the measure of the activities of Haman (Esther 3:8).

Can I rephrase your question as the many answers seem to getting further from what you originally asked. Are you asking: would Jesus Christ 'NOT accept someone who comes to the congregation and asks for forgiveness ?'

Ps. 4:4

Watchtower 2004 15 Feb Para 15 gives a definition of porneia which the brother's elders should be aware of. Gender is not a factor.

Not sure how "he brought some brothers" to serve as witnesses to this incident. Matt 5:32 However, as you probably know, porneia is not dependent on the sex of the persons involved. So, a proven case is grounds for the innocent party to scripturally divorce.