Micah Ong

I didn't say it should be Jehovah which would make it a contradiction, you did. The NWT makes that mistake. I agree with Lord. I simply said that what you showed me saying Romans 10:13 is the case being Jehovah, then it is a contradiction.

I didn't say Jesus was Jehovah the Father God, I was making the point that Jesus name was the most important name for us now according to God. Also you can't compare other's savior's whom God raised up in ancient Jewish times to the ultimate savior Jesus Christ for all mankind, who created the heavens and the earth. YHWH is not exalted as the name we look to in the New Testament. If you apply the name Jehovah to Lord in the New Testament - in Revelation you run into problems with Jesus and Jehovah described as the Alpha and the Omega. Rev 1:8,18; Rev 22:12,13 Also God has given Jesus a position worthy of worship to the Glory of the Father. Philippians 2:9-13 For this reason also [because He obeyed and so completely humbled Himself], God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess and openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (sovereign God), to the glory of God the Father. Don't forget that Jesus is our mediator and God has bestowed on him a position that he has deemed worthy of worship. Ones in heaven bow to him as it states in that scripture. He created all things Colossians 1:15 For [d]by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, [things] visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [that is, by His activity] and for Him. It's easy as a Jehovah's Witness to minimize Jesus. You can give Jesus the worship he deserves and still give God the Father Glory. It's interesting to note as @JW Insider has brought out that the Magi and occultic groups through the centuries have used YHWH. But I haven't known of any occult groups use Jesus name. I know the Freemason use YHWH in their special prayers and refer to him as the great architect of the sky. But I don't think they use Jesus name. If anyone could find where they do, that would be very interesting.

So we just put the Watchtower amongst Christendom, o.k! I think if you check church history the Anna Baptist and Baptists never got involved in any of those things.

If that's the case then it contradicts Acts 4:11,12 "This Jesus is the stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which became the [e]chief Cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].” Bible harmony bro.

“It is because Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse to buy the Malawi Congress Party card. This card declares the holder to be a member of the ruling political party of Malawi. But for Jehovah’s Witnesses to buy a political card and thus join a political party would be an open denial of what they believe and stand for.” Awake! 1976 Aug 8 p.5 “For some of our dear sisters, the persecution was especially harrowing. Many were the reports of rape, mutilation, and beating of Christian women. The sadistic attackers spared nobody. The elderly, the young, and even some pregnant sisters were put through such cruel ordeals. Some suffered miscarriages as a result. Once again, thousands were forced to flee their villages. Many found refuge in the bush. Others went into temporary exile in neighboring Mozambique. By the end of November 1967, the brutal wave of attacks on Jehovah’s Witnesses had claimed at least five more lives. … The vicious attacks claimed many lives. In Cape Maclear, at the southern end of Lake Malawi, bundles of grass were tied around Zelphat Mbaiko. Petrol was poured on the grass and set alight. He was literally burned to death! Sisters also suffered terribly. Following their refusal to buy party cards, many were repeatedly raped by party officials. In Lilongwe, Sister Magola, along with many others, tried to flee the trouble. However, she was pregnant and could not run very fast. A mob, acting like a pack of wild dogs, caught up with her and beat her to death. At the campus of Bunda College of Agriculture, just outside of Lilongwe, six brothers and one sister were murdered and their bodies were horribly mutilated.” Yearbook 1999 pp.182,189

The Governing Body are responsible for the brutal rape, torture and murder of Jehovah’s witnesses, this is shocking and the people responsible cannot be excused for their actions, but this could have been prevented by purchasing a political card. The reasoning the Watchtower leaders used when setting their brothers up to come in line for such persecution was that Witnesses are to be “no part of the world”. Yet at the same time that Witnesses were forbidden to hold a card in Malawi a comparable situation arose in Mexico, with the Governing Body ruling in the opposite direction for Mexican brothers. In Mexico, military service was compulsory for young men. On completion of service young men would receive a “Cartilla” card, which similar to the card in Malawi, was required for a transactions such as obtaining a passport and drivers license. Young Witness brothers experienced persecution and imprisonment for refusing their obligation to attend military service. In order to relieve this suffering, the Governing Body ruled that it was acceptable for Mexican brothers to bribe officials to obtain a government Cartilla card that exempted them from military service. This is discussed in the following letter to Mexico Branch Committee dated June 2, 1960. “As to those who are relieved of military training by a money transaction with the officials who are involved therewith, this is on par with what is done in other Latin American countries where brothers have paid for their relief through some military official in order to retain their freedom for theocratic activities. If members of the military establishment are willing to accept such an arrangement upon the payment of a fee then that is the responsibility of these representatives of the national organisation. In such a case the money paid does not go to the military establishment, but is appropriated by the individual who undertakes the arrangement. If the consciences of certain brothers allow them to enter into such an arrangement for their continued freedom we have no objection. Of course, if they would get into any difficulties over their course of action then they would have to shoulder such difficulties themselves, and we could not offer them any assistance. But if the arrangement is current down there and is recognized by the inspectors who do not make any inquiries into the veracity of the matter then the matter can be passed by for the accruing advantages. Should a military emergency arise and confront these brothers with their marching card it would oblige them to make a decision by which they could not extricate themselves by a money payment and their mettle would be tested and they would have to demonstrate outright where they stand and prove that they are in favor of Christian neutrality in a determined test. Faithfully yours in the Kingdom ministry, Watchtower B.&T. Society of Pensylvania

I do understand it as I was raised as one and took it very seriously. But because of reasons like this I recently left. Watchtower is just another cult buddy! It's a multi-billion dollar organization. I spoke to a former elder who told me that they wouldn't help the starving brothers in Malawi because it's not what they do. I wonder if the GB remember Matthew 25:35. Again you have no sound reasoning to explain Romans 10:13 and Acts 4:12 and prove my point that they insert Jehovah to suit there doctrine.

Why not as long as the discussion is conducive to more understanding. I have shown how Jehovah is falsely inserted in Romans 10:13 as verse 14 shows it should be Jesus. This completely harmonizes with Acts 4:12. All you can do is say I haven't got full understanding when you have nothing to back up anything to the contrary. Insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine? Are the Pharisees who had Jesus put to death, who "call on the name of Jehovah" saved?

That maybe so but at the risk of sounding like a broken record Philippians 2:10,11 "God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus [b]every knee shall bow [in submission], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth" Acts 4:10-12 "This Jesus is the stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which became the [e]chief Cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved" Compare Romans 10:13 New World Translation is contradictory to Acts 4:12. "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” verse 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? The Jews already knew Yahweh and believed in him so verse 13 must be talking about Jesus. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.” The theme of the New Testament isn't about God's name it's about the new covenant and the revealing of Jesus and his saving work by means of God.

I have to say that I am open to the true nature of Nature of God and the Son now, not a trinity believer per se. The scriptures indicate that Jesus is Eternal and the Father is Eternal. What I am seeing now is that the, The Son is an individualized portion of God, the original expression of God. And yet God the Father is the original and is greater. Jesus is Eternal in that he came from God. Of course I could be wrong and we can on and on about who's right and who's wrong but in the end God reveal things to all mankind soon. I'm not feeling the need to be conclusive about anything as the promise is made to us that man will never learn all there is to know about him. I feel confident that whatever the truth is, we will begin to understand it more in due time as he reveals it to us in the future.

Even though one is disciplined it doesn't mean they aren't loved unconditionally, it is the discipline that is an act of love after all. We are all facing the death because of sin, does that mean we aren't loved unconditionally. We haven't earned salvation but it is a gift because of unconditional love (undeserved kindness). Yes of course there a boundaries and people suffer the consequence of overstepping the boundaries but it doesn't mean we don't continue to grow in love and learn from our mistakes. It is unfortunate for people who continue on a wrong path but that doesn't mean God doesn't continue to extend his unconditional love towards them hoping they learn and grow in love towards him. God's will is perfect and our knowledge of things is so limited. Please do not play the judge. Matthew 7:1,2 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others.[a] The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. This is why I am no longer going to be critical of Jehovah's Witnesses or any other religion. Well try not too anyway lol I'm not saying I'm not judgmental because we can all be, and I started the thread lol If you are going to counter-argument, I am not going to respond because this is wearisome. You might count time for your witnessing but I feel like I am wasting my energies on this rather than engaging in helpful things that up-build. This is not an attack on your character because I see you are sincere. This is just my final resolve. Kind regards Micah

Our need to be right can overtake Jesus message of imitating his unconditional love and cause us to be self-righteous. None of us are the Judges. The Word of God is bigger and more widespread than what is written down in the Bible. What we get in the New Testament is merely snapshots of Jesus. Likewise what we get in the Old Testament is only a snapshot of the YHWH. Likewise what is written in Genesis is only a snapshot of creation. "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." - John 21:25 If you feel the need to be right and Judge people using the Bible that is your prerogative. Only the Father and Jesus Judge. Jesus said, "The pure in heart shall see God." The Pharisee's were Judges of the people using scriptures but did they see God? You don't have to agree with wickedness to have unconditional love. What is intolerance going to achieve. Didn't God say he would fix it all. Isn't it God that decides what he is going to do. Case in point of how unhealthy it is to become the Judge or Spokesperson for God using scriptures is the West Borough Church. I'm not saying you are a Judge but when using these scriptures you can in effect cast judgements to other people playing the Judge. Just keep it simple brother. What did the Pharisee receive as an answer from Jesus when he asked what the greatest commandment is? “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?” 37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” I don't care if I'm wrong in other details as long as I'm am trying to do what Jesus said was the most important thing to do. If you get to caught up in the mind you can become disconnect to the heart. There is a balance as Jesus says in verse 37. Jesus says to love your enemies and pray for them. Would you feel the need to correct your enemies after Jesus lovingly spoke to you personally with that message? Love has a greater positive influence than blunt correction. Jesus was and still is the epitome of this. All though we are all sinners he came to die for all of us.

Yes thank you, I sincerely agree with you now. Jesus is a separate being to to the Father. That's how the scriptures read. I'm enjoying the learning process though

Hey everyone thanks for the discussion but I am going to have to agree to disagree on our views regarding the Bible and it's message. Thanks for sharing your views. The Librarian has said this post is now enormous lol I wish each and all of you the best with your personal relationship with our Heavenly Father! May his warmth and love rise above our differing views and affect the way we see each other. Christian love Micah P.S I am sorry for any angst caused

@Bible SpeaksSo why use different letters JHWH then, with guessed vowel letters.

Well thanks for pointing this out as I hadn't read this properly to convey the point I was making. But no other Angel has been described as being equal to God as Philippians 2:6 says and no Angel is the creator of all things as Jesus is Everything was created through him and for him and by him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. The Son is an individualized portion of God who has attained a perfect oneness with God

New World Translation Isaiah 45:23 "By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return:+ To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty Philippians 2:10 "so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground 2 Corinthians 13:14 "The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the sharing in the holy spirit be with all of you." (Interlinear says: "fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all you.") Interlinear John 1:1 "In beginning was the Word and the Word was with - God and God was the Word) It doesn't say and 'a' God was the Word. It reads how it reads and both mentions of God start with Capital letters. The only Translation that I am aware of that puts "a god" is the the translation by a Spiritist who claims that the Holy Spirit came upon Joseph and they conceived Jesus.

Sect accused of hypocrisy over association with organisation it has demonised. Stephen Bates, religious affairs correspondent Oct 8, 2001 The Guardian "The United Nations is being asked to investigate why it has granted associate status to the Jehovah's Witnesses, the fundamentalist US-based Christian sect, which regards it as the scarlet beast predicted in the Book of Revelation. Disaffected members of the 6m-strong group, which has 130,000 followers in the UK, have accused the Witnesses' elderly governing body of hypocrisy in secretly accepting links with an organisation that they continue to denounce in apocalyptic terms. The UN itself admitted yesterday that it was surprised that the sect, whose formal name is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, had been accepted on its list of non-governmental organisations for the last 10 years." guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,565199,00.html Click Here for the chain of email correspondence between the Watchtower and Bates following the Guardian article.

You reference Matt 6:9,10 and I don't see YHWH. You still don't have a scripture where he says YHWH directly. If it was so important to Jesus to use that name, wouldn't he have at least one direct quote of YHWH? He didn't deny being equal to God. No where are Angels referred to as God. The bible seems to indicate 3 distinct persons in one as opposed to modalism. Being able to exist together at the same time. "Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh God, is what Jesus referred to when he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19. Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh, but John says that Isaiah really saw the glory of Christ. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. Combine this with the fact the Yahweh said, "Who will go for US" is a plural pronoun indicating more than one person in the Godhead. Isaiah 6:1,8-9 John 12:41 " Isaiah was referring to Jesus when he said this, because he saw the future and spoke of the Messiah’s glory."

Ok the scroll had YHWH but they pronounced it as Lord so as not to take the name in vain. Yes and the scriptures say Jesus is God as well, Isaiah 9:6; John 5:18 - The Jews new he was in effect calling himself Mighty God, Eternal Father. If this was not true he would of denied it. The Jehovah's Witnesses withdrew the Trinity brochure because of misquotes, this is one example: The Encyclopedia Americana "The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be 'beyond the grasp of human reason." (ti p.4) "It is held that although the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind".

Only in the Old Testament. Give me a scripture where the Gospels speak of Jesus saying Jehovah's name. If he thought it was so important he would be using it all the time. He only addresses him as the Father! He only quoted some scriptures. He didn't Teach God's word he did the preaching from himself and his Father. The Isaiah scroll passage he quoted doesn't even use God's name.

But no one pronounced it for hundreds of years including the Pharisees for fear of taking God's name in vain. There would of been uproar had Jesus pronounced that name yet nothing in scripture mentions any account of this. They read from the Law all the time.

Any Interlinear bible goes off the earliest manuscripts. That's why the Kingdom Interlinear as used by Jehovah's Witnesses doesn't have it because if there was proof that it was in there then you would find it in the Kingdom Interlinear. There is a difference between making mistakes and manipulating quotes from research articles and also lying and plagiarism. The Watchtower quotes the Gazette for support that in 1914 War War 1 changed the world for the worse. Taken in context the article says something quite different. “News columnists recently commented on the end of World War I 60 years ago. Gwynne Dyer of the Montreal “Gazette” wrote: “World War I—simply The Great War to its survivors—remains the watershed of modern history in men’s minds. Before 1914, the figures in the fading photographs live in another world . . . marked by a peculiar innocence. . . . It was the period before 1914 that was the island in time, when men could believe that progress was changing us as quickly as it was changing our machines. Then World War I tumbled us back into reality.” Watchtower 1979 Fe 15 p.13 Between these carefully chosen comments and the ellipses the Gazette includes the following paragraph. "This is of course a hopelessly romantic view of the world we are idealizing the past, and over-dramatizing our own circumstances. The 20th century is certainly no worse than the 13th for mass slaughter, nor than the ancient empires for regimentation." Gazette 11 Nov 1976

@bruceq Yes I know but I feel this is a loving warning to present factual information regarding the information this Governing Body is presenting to you. This is not a debate about words but merely showing you the deception that is taking place. I only hope that you put your complete trust in God and not a group of men. Especially when they say they things like this: At that time, the lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (w13 11/15 p.20) Have any of theirdates been correct!

The Watchtower quotes the Gazette for support that in 1914 War War 1 changed the world for the worse. Taken in context the article says something quite different. “News columnists recently commented on the end of World War I 60 years ago. Gwynne Dyer of the Montreal “Gazette” wrote: “World War I—simply The Great War to its survivors—remains the watershed of modern history in men’s minds. Before 1914, the figures in the fading photographs live in another world . . . marked by a peculiar innocence. . . . It was the period before 1914 that was the island in time, when men could believe that progress was changing us as quickly as it was changing our machines. Then World War I tumbled us back into reality.” Watchtower 1979 Fe 15 p.13 Between these carefully chosen comments and the ellipses the Gazette includes the following paragraph. "This is of course a hopelessly romantic view of the world we are idealizing the past, and over-dramatizing our own circumstances. The 20th century is certainly no worse than the 13th for mass slaughter, nor than the ancient empires for regimentation." Gazette 11 Nov 1976 607 B.C.E. The year 607 B.C. is pivotal to Jehovah's Witnesses, as it is the foundation for calculating 1914 as the start of the Last Days. This topic is so detailed that it warrants its own discussion at 607 - 1914 - Last Days. Relevant to this article is that while the Watchtower says Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C., virtually every other source, including encyclopaedias, historians and scholars, state that Jerusalem fell in either 587 B.C. or 586 B.C. To arrive at the spurious date of 607 B.C., the Watchtower needs to re-work the dates for other significant events, also without any historical support. For this reason, the Watchtower has resorted to misrepresenting quotes to make it appear its date system is correct. For example, in the following quote the Insight Book inserts the year 624 B.C.E. as the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar. Though done correctly by use of [ ], the reader is left with the impression this date is supported by the original source. "In this his accession year he returned to Hattu, and "in the month Shebat [January-February, 624 B.C.E.] he took the vast booty of Hattu to Babylon." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 100)" Insight on the Scriptures - Volume 2 p.480 However, on checking Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, Grayson does not use the date of 624 B.C., but rather on page 19 gives the accession date as 605 B.C. In the 2010 book God's Word for Us Through Jeremiah, a statement is made regarding a find by Eilat Mazar, supporting two Characters mentioned in Jeremiah. "Archaeologist Eilat Mazar reports unearthing a small clay seal impression, or bulla. (below left) It was found in 2005 during a supervised excavation of a layer dating back to when Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E." God's Word for Us Through Jeremiah p.55 The reader may get the impression that Eilat is supporting the year 607 B.C.E., whereas she presents that the destruction was in 587 B.C. (See articles at jpost.com and archaeology.hui.ac.il) There was no need to mention the date 607 B.C.E., as it was not relevant to the topic, and for the sake of accuracy the writer could have referred to "when Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon." The Watchtower inserts this date to deceitfully condition Jehovah's Witnesses that 607 B.C.E. is historically accurate.