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Micah Ong

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    Micah Ong reacted to JW Insider in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    When I realized I didn't know nearly enough about this subject, I decided to look into 4 questions that came up from reading the NWT Appendixes:
    Point A. Did the Tetragrammaton appear in all the Hebrew manuscripts of the OT in the first century? Point B. What was the general history of the appearance and use of the Divine Name and at what point did it begin to fall out of general use among Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek-speaking Jews? Point C. Did some (many? most?) of the LXX texts available to the first-century Christians already contain replacements for the Divine Name? Point D. [Based on the new claim in the NWT Appendix 2013-2017, not the old claim from 1984] Primary Question: Is there any evidence showing that it was sometime during the second or early third century C.E., when a practice had developed where those copying the manuscripts among those copying the manuscripts to replace the Tetragrammaton with a title such as Lord or God? Secondary Question: Is there any evidence showing that those same copyists just mentioned (in the 2nd and early 3rd century) may have copied from manuscripts where this had already been done? More questions have come up since, but these are still basic questions I'm interested in. So far I have either skimmed or read the following articles, papers, and other research that make points relative to these questions. If anyone is really interested in some of these I can summarize them and make fair-use quotes from them, but my access to them does not give me the right to quote long portions without permission. Some or several of them might be publicly accessible.
    The Divine Name Yahweh Author(s): Raymond Abba Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 80, No. 4 (Dec., 1961), pp. 320-328 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature YHWH, THE INEFFABLE NAME: AVOIDANCE, ALTERNATIONS AND CIRCUMVENTIONS IN THE NON-BIBLICAL MANUSCRIPTS AT QUMRAN by JOËLLE ALHADEF-LAKE. https://www8.twu.ca/library/theses/330418_pdf_331138_23B9F692-8718-11E4-B9A0-5421EF8616FA_lake_j.pdf [187 pg pdf, very detailed and useful, imo] Concerning Exod 34:6 Author(s): Norman Walker Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 79, No. 3 (Sep., 1960), p. 277 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature The God Yahweh-Elohim Author(s): Raphael Patai Source: American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 75, No. 4 (Aug., 1973), pp. 1181-1184 Published by: Wiley on behalf of the American Anthropological Association Reviewed Work(s): Yahweh: The Divine Name in the Bible by G. H. Parke-Taylor Review by: Herbert B. Huffmon Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, No. 4 (Dec., 1977), pp. 580-581 [This work is often quoted in the most relevant research by others scholars, I haven't obtained the original work yet, but intend to obtain it, even if I have to pay for it.] Reviewed Work(s): De Septuaginta, Studies in Honour of John William Wevers on His Sixty-Fifth Birthday by A. Pietersma and C. Cox Review by: G. D. Kilpatrick Source: Novum Testamentum, Vol. 27, Fasc. 4 (Oct., 1985), pp. 380-382 [The Review of Pietersma's contribution covers the major points on the topic "Kyrios or Tetragram" {in the LXX and NT mss} is long enough and very relevant to this topic]  Septuagint Research: A Plea for a Return to Basic Issues Author(s): Albert Pietersma Source: Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 35, Fasc. 3 (Jul., 1985), pp. 296-311 Published by: Brill [not as relevant as his work on "Kyrios or Tetragram" in the LXX, but gives a detailed background to what we know about the LXX variations.] The Origin of the Nomina Sacra: A Proposal Author(s): L. W. Hurtado Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 117, No. 4 (Winter, 1998), pp. 655-673 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature [very relevant] The Gnostics Speak Again: The "Gospel of Truth" Author(s): Virginia Corwin Source: The Massachusetts Review, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Winter, 1960), pp. 218-228 Published by: The Massachusetts Review, Inc. [Gnostic studies are surprisingly helpful due to the number of references to the Divine Name(s)] “The god Iao and his connection with the Biblical God with special emphasis on the manuscript 4QpapLXXLevb” («Ο θεός Ιαώ και η σχέση του με τον Βιβλικό Θεό, με ιδιαίτερη εστίαση στο χειρόγραφο 4QpapLXXLevb»), Vetus Testamentum et Hellas, Vol. 4 (2017), pp. xx. https://www.academia.edu/30967321/_The_god_Iao_and_his_connection_with_the_Biblical_God_with_special_emphasis_on_the_manuscript_4QpapLXXLevb_Ο_θεός_Ιαώ_και_η_σχέση_του_με_τον_Βιβλικό_Θεό_με_ιδιαίτερη_εστίαση_στο_χειρόγραφο_4QpapLXXLevb_Vetus_Testamentum_et_Hellas_Vol._4_2017_pp._xx Pavlos D. Vasileiadis Aspects of rendering the sacred Tetragrammaton in Greek Open Theology 2014; Volume 1: 56–88 THE NAME OF GOD, A STUDY IN RABBINIC THEOLOGY Author(s): SAMUEL S. COHON
    Source: Hebrew Union College Annual, Vol. 23, No. 1, Hebrew Union College Seventy-fifthAnniversary Publication 1875-1950 (1950-1951), pp. 579-604 The "Horned Hunter" on a Lost Gnostic Gem Author(s): Roy Kotansky and Jeffrey Spier
    Source: The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 88, No. 3 (Jul., 1995), pp. 315-337
    Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the Harvard Divinity School [relevant to pronunciation of YHWH] Gaulish Tau and Gnostic Names on the Lamella from Baudecet Author(s): Bernard Mees
    Source: Latomus, T. 66, Fasc. 4 (OCTOBRE-DÉCEMBRE 2007), pp. 919-928
    Published by: Société d'Études Latines de Bruxelles [Again, a surprising find related to spelling and pronunciation of YHWH] Gnosticism and the New Testament Author(s): G. Quispel
    Source: Vigiliae Christianae, Vol. 19, No. 2 (Jun., 1965), pp. 65-85 Published by: Brill A HYMN AGAINST HERETICS IN THE NEWLY DISCOVERED SCROLLS Author(s): ISAIAH SONNE
    Source: Hebrew Union College Annual, Vol. 23, No. 1, Hebrew Union College Seventy-fifthAnniversary Publication 1875-1950 (1950-1951), pp. 275-313 Published by: Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion Jewish Gnosticism? Author(s): Joseph Dan
    Source: Jewish Studies Quarterly, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1995), pp. 309-328 Published by: Mohr Siebeck GmbH & Co. KG Once Again: The Minim Author(s): Harris Hirschberg
    Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 67, No. 4 (Dec., 1948), pp. 305-318 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature [References to the Minim in Jewish Talmud, etc, sometimes considered to be Christians] Philo and the Names of God Author(s): A. Marmorstein
    Source: The Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Jan., 1932), pp. 295-306 Published by: University of Pennsylvania Press NOTES ON A PHOENICIAN DRACHM BEARING THE NAME IAHVE Author(s): A. W. Hands
    Source: The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society, FourthSeries, Vol. 9 (1909), pp. 121-131
    Published by: Royal Numismatic Society Speaking with Angels: Jewish and Greco-Egyptian Revelatory Adjurations Author(s): Rebecca Lesses
    Source: The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 89, No. 1 (Jan., 1996), pp. 41-60
    Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the Harvard Divinity School  [More on IAO and YHWH] The Origin and Interpretation of the Tetragrammaton Author(s): Hans H. Spoer
    Source: The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Oct.,1901), pp. 9-35
    Published by: The University of Chicago Press [Includes info on whether IAO was a transliteration of YHWH]  
    These are in no particular order, and of course there are many more to list. In case some appear unrelated or completely worthless, well, it's true. Some are nearly worthless, anyway. But some points might still be useful to compare or reference. For example, take this little "gem," mentioned above: The "Horned Hunter" on a Lost Gnostic Gem. Here is a quote from it attached as an image (so I don't have to reproduce the Hebrew/Greek/phonetics). Note that it discusses an early pronunciation of "Jehovah" close to the first century:
     

  2. Like
    Micah Ong reacted to JW Insider in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    I finished the two papers by Vasieiadis. I have previously read what George Howard said and found him convincing at the time. What I'm trying to do now though is start from scratch, with no bias for or against any position, and just see where the evidence takes us.
    His research into "IAO" would be rather devastating to the position that the NWT translators have held, and that the Watch Tower publications promote. It has similarities to a lot of the research that AllenSmith has just presented, which would also be devastating to the Watch Tower's currently accepted research if even half of it were true. Recall that the NWT Appendix said:
    *** nwtsty C1 The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
    The divine name also appeared in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the “Old Testament” that was widely used in the first century C.E. At that time [in the first century C.E.], the divine name was represented in the Septuagint by either the Hebrew characters (YHWH) or the Greek transliteration of those characters (IAO).
    What is striking about Vasileiadis's research, is that he claims that the original Septuagint [LXX] which came from Egypt, might have never contained YHWH, but initially contained the name of an Egyptian "Almighty God" who went by the name Iao. He says this could have been based on Hellenistic syncretism, especially prevalent among Jews who lived outside of Palestine. This is nearly the opposite of what the NWT Appendix claims above:
    On the other side, the god named Iao is found in Greek and Latin works of the Hellenistic period already since the 1st century BCE. It mainly appears in writings displaying marks of religious syncretism, used as one of the names designating either the highest God or one of his emanations. In the following the possibility is examined that the use of the name Iao, instead of another form of the Tetragrammaton, in the manuscript 4QpapLXXLevb (4Q120; Rahlfs 802) may be the result of a Hellenizing rather than a re-Hebraizing tendency, a view that tends to prevail in the Septuagint studies. Evidence coming from Christian writers shows that for few centuries CE Bible manuscripts that contained the theonym Iao were circulating among them and even possibly produced by them.
    He traces the possibility through the large Jewish community at Elephantine since the 6th & 5th century B.C.E.  (famous for the second ancient Jewish Temple). These Jews had long used a 3-letter "Tetragrammaton:" YHW (likely pronounced "Yaho"/"Ya'u"). Scholars have said that this Jewish community was syncretic almost to the point of being polytheistic, similar to the common problem that all the prophets continued to warn the Jews in Jerusalem about. But it wasn't about polytheism so much as the idea that various cultures in Hellenistic society had a pantheon of gods, but identified one of those gods as "the Supreme Being" or the "Highest One." He says this would include usually, Zeus, Helios, Sarapis, and Iao. 
    He doesn't mention it, but this may not be so different from how Zeus becomes Dzeus or Deus, which many languages use to refer to the Almighty God of Christianity and Judaism. (Dios, Deity, Divine)
    Also, his research doesn't mention it, but it seems that it would have been the same as if the LXX had happened 400 years later in a Latin translation and the choice had been to translate YHWH as either "Jupiter" or "Jove," the equivalent of the Supreme, Highest God (Jove=Zeus). Following the logic of his research, they would have likely chosen "Jove" because it was a close compromise to YHW. But, who knows, even Jupiter could have been possible, because its derivation is likely related to changing DZeu-pater or God-the-Father. Easy to rationalize as a good name for any Almighty God.
    He says that many of the Gnostic influences (also widespread in Egypt) popularized IAO as the name of angels or subordinate deities from the 1st century BCE to the first century CE. (Then again, the Gnostics also subordinated Jehovah as a lesser deity.)
    On the point of subordinate deities, I found this particular footnote interesting:
    Sean McDonough, YHWH at Patmos: Rev. 1:4 in Its Hellenistic and
    Early Jewish Setting, Tübingen 1999, 95–97. For instance, in late
    Hellenistic and Roman Egypt, Ιαω [IAO] was a prominent name of the lion-
    headed Sabaoth, the Biblical Creator, who could assume many
    names and be identified with some gods or heroes. He was Mihos
    for the Egyptians, Ialdabaoth for the Ophite Gnostics, Judas, Michael
    or Moses for other Judaizing sects, and also the Greek hero
    Perseus. He was the god of amulets and was invoked in several
    magical spells. Also, he was depicted to use the powerful divine
    snake Chnoubis as his weapon. . . . This is widely observable all over the
    Mediterranean world in inscriptions of that period.
    Of course, YHWH is also called Jehovah-Sabaoth in the Bible [Lord of Hosts/Jehovah of Armies], and the name Sabaoth remained intact through Hebrew, Greek and Latin. The mention of the magic amulets and papyri is interesting, because in the magic of the time, the idea was to pronounce the name of a god properly to gain the power or influence of the god. The papyri might even offer several possible pronunciations, and at least two of the magic sources even give us some hints as to how YHWH was to be pronounced.
    I found another academic source that claims that although "Yahweh" was the more likely Jewish pronunciation of YHWH, it claims that "Yehova/Jehovah" was a pronunciation given in the magical papyri for casting spells, gaining power, etc.
     
     
     
  3. Like
    Micah Ong reacted to JW Insider in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    I understand this and I agree. I gleaned many points from it that were valuable and were not at all devastating to the positions promoted in our publications.
    I was speaking about a specific position he posits that would be devastating if it's true.  It would be devastating because it would take away the entire point we make about YHWH in the LXX. We would probably stop making use of any argument about the LXX and YHWH.
    1. That's because the basic point is that the original LXX may have used IAO instead of YHWH. IAO would have come first because of the pagan and Hellenistic influences that remained in copies of the LXX well into the Christian era, even copied by Christians who made copies of the LXX. Then, he says, it could have been later Hebraist influences that were intended to correct the "pagan" influence, by putting YHWH into the places where IAO had originally been.
    2. But another point is that the use of YHWH in the LXX was to keep it from being pronounced, while the use of IAO made a word like Iao (Ya'o, or Yaho), easy to pronounce. In some cases the term YHWH was put not just in Hebrew/Aramaic characters but in 1,000-year-old style archaic Hebrew letters, which would further assure that it was not pronounced. 
    Both these points are devastating to our argument about IAO because we have said it was so that a form of YHWH would be pronounced.
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    Micah Ong reacted to JW Insider in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    Thanks for pointing this out and making the links easy to get to. It's also up to date on the 2016 Watchtower Library, [v.18 with regular online updates through 2017].
    The resources provided by the Watch Tower Society are excellent, of course, but they are not always clear about which statements are assumptions (and therefore subject to change) and which statements are 'statements of fact.' Sometimes even the word 'proven' is used, when it's only a strongly held assumption or belief.
    I'm working through it now to see which are which:
    *** nwtsty C1 The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
    When Jesus and his apostles were on earth, the divine name, or Tetragrammaton, appeared in the Hebrew manuscripts of the “Old Testament.” (See Appendixes A4 and A5.)
    Undoubtedly, the divine name or Tetragrammaton appeared in the Hebrew mss of the OT. Perhaps not in all of them, but apparently in the vast majority. I'm trying to do a quick, last-minute study to get a sense of what the evidence shows about Hebrew mss of the OT in this time period that did NOT contain the Divine Name. [POINT A, for further research] To get a sense of the evidence for this, I'm also trying to look into the overall time period when the Divine Name began to fall out of general use among Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek-speaking Jews. [POINT B, for further research]
    *** nwtsty C1 The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
    The divine name also appeared in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the “Old Testament” that was widely used in the first century C.E. At that time, the divine name was represented in the Septuagint by either the Hebrew characters (YHWH) or the Greek transliteration of those characters (IAO).
    This first sentence is also undoubtedly true. Almost every quote of the OT in the NT follows the Septuagint [LXX] instead of the Hebrew text that the NWT (and almost everyone else) uses for the OT, wherever the LXX and Hebrew are known to differ.
    The second sentence is true, too, but I don't think we are really saying definitively that, in the first century, the divine name was always represented either by YHWH or IAO in the LXX. We know of various other divine name abbreviations, and it might still be true that some LXX texts, even in the first century C.E., may have already contained replacements for the divine name. [POINT C, for further research]
    *** nwtsty C1 The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
    Some portions of manuscripts of the Septuagint from the first century C.E. and earlier still exist today, and they prove this fact. So when the inspired writers of the “New Testament” quoted from the “Old Testament,” they must have seen the Tetragrammaton, whether they were quoting directly from the Hebrew text of the “Old Testament” or the Greek translation of that text, the Septuagint.
    The first sentence is correct again, and what they "prove" is that at least some of the LXX copies (which we currently date to the first century C.E. and earlier) have YHWH (or a form of this) or IAO, which we consider to be a transliteration of IAO.
    The second sentence states that the inspired writers of the NT when quoting from the OT, must have seen the Tetragrammaton in one of these two forms, at least. This may very well be true, although I'm not sure it was always necessarily true based on "POINT C," which I still need to research further.
    Also, of course, it may very well be true that they saw the Tetragrammaton and purposely, even through inspiration, chose NOT to copy it. This doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus didn't utter the divine name. It's even possible that they knew that Jesus had uttered the divine name when quoting from Isaiah or Psalms for example, and yet the inspired Bible writers produced their initial manuscripts with "kyrios" or "theos" for example. This latter point is not something I expect to research further, or draw a conclusion from, it's only that I don't wish to jump to any conclusions not actually evident from the facts.
    *** nwtsty C1 The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
    Today, however, no manuscripts of the “New Testament” from the first century C.E. are available for us to examine. So no one can check the original Greek manuscripts of the “New Testament” to see whether the Bible writers used the Tetragrammaton. The Greek manuscripts of the “New Testament” that would have a bearing on this issue are copies that were made from about 200 C.E. onward. The more complete manuscripts are from the fourth century C.E., long after the originals were composed.
    Nothing to research further here. These are all statements of proven fact. (Until and unless further evidence or manuscript discoveries are disclosed.) Further disclosed discoveries or evidence would not necessarily help the side of the argument that we are expecting it to help, however.
    *** nwtsty C1 The Restoration of the Divine Name in the “New Testament” ***
    However, sometime during the second or early third century C.E., a practice had developed where those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with a title such as Lord or God or copied from manuscripts where this had already been done.  *
    We might already have enough evidence to test this particular claim. [POINT D, for further research]
    I believe it already shows that the NWT translators have backed off the stronger claim made earlier in 1984 (and quoted by Micah Ong, above):
    *** Rbi8 p. 1564 1D The Divine Name in the Christian Greek Scriptures [1984] ***
    Sometime during the second or third century C.E. the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Kyʹri·os, “Lord” or The·osʹ, “God.”
    Also the footnote  * in the new C1 Appendix, opens up the possibilities much more widely, and removes the need to have mentioned the second or third century scribes in the first place. After all, these scribes, it is admitted, might just be copying from manuscripts where the Tetragrammaton had already been replaced with "Lord" or "God." In the worst case, this comes very close to admitting that it might have already been done up to and (technically) even including the initial manuscript, where an inspired NT writer might have already removed the Tetragrammaton reference from an LXX quotation, for example. That's obviously not the intent of the NWT Appendix writer to state this, but especially with the footnote material in view, it shows just how little is left of the original claim.
    The last point for further research, therefore, might not include the claim from the 1984 NWT about second and third century scribes removing the Tetragrammaton from the LXX. The real important question is just the NT manuscripts here. It was always an odd claim anyway that both Jewish and Christian scribes would have agreed at some point as late as the third century to remove the name from both the NT mss and the LXX mss, as if all the dozens of manuscript copies were under some central control. Recensions of various types would still exist, because there is no way they could have got them all. And if we find evidence of this being done before the second and third centuries, the entire argument loses its meaning.
  7. Like
    Micah Ong reacted to b4ucuhear in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Point taken and as I had mentioned before, we have neither a miraculous ability to read hearts (or predict the future) nor the authority to judge who is or is not a good hearted person (or even the potential to be so.) This is what we feel is part of our ministry: to be "God's fellow workers" in reaching as many good hearted people as God draws to him with the good news of God's kingdom as well as providing a warning of God's impending judgment. Of course, a mere profession/appearance of love of God is not always a true indication of the heart. "If anyone says 'I love God and yet is hating his bother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom her has not seen. And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 Jon 4:20-21.) As you had astutely stated: "When you love others as yourself, you are in effect loving Jesus and God as well."  We might add: "By this all will know that your are my disciples - if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:35) You notice this new commandment to love one another  (that would identify Christ's true followers), isn't full of man-made creeds and formulas. It is a simple observable truth that would be evident to any who love the truth. No need to compare hundreds/thousands of differing/contradictory teachings. There are many religions/religious people that claim to worship God but would you have a scriptural basis for saying that people who pray to the same God to help kill their brothers - (even of the same religion) - on the other side of a political fence in warfare are demonstrating that identifying characteristic? Aren't we commanded to love even our enemies? As you correctly quoted "You must love your neighbour as yourself."  Romans 10:2,3 says: "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."    
     
    I would both agree and disagree. I would agree there are good people in many if not all religions - those are the ones we look for. But looking at the Bible record, how would you answer: Is it a matter of how we want to worship God? Or is it a matter of how God wants/demands to be worshipped? Is it up to us to decide what God will accept as true worship? Or is it up to him to decide what is acceptable to him? Ironically, many of those you suspect of being true Christians would likely not agree with you that it's not important what organization you are with - (forgive me if I misunderstand you on this point). The fact that there are so many different organizations, all claiming to be the true one testifies to that. Again, looking at the Bible record, did it matter what organization/religion you belonged to? The Israelites were given the law that kept the contaminating influence of other religious ideas and forms of worship at bay/separate. In fact, those other forms of worship (including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, worship of false Gods...) was something "detestable" to God and it was a capital offence to participate in it. Later when the early Christian congregation was formed, was it acceptable to remain under law and not accept Christ? No. What about today then? Revelation describes false religion as a harlot for the immoral relationship she has with the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17).  Rev. 18:4 says: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. for her sins have massed together clear up to have, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind..."  See also 2 Cor. 16:17; Isa. 52:11; 2 Tim. 3:5.  Matthew 7:13,14 "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it: whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.""
    So while I tacitly agree with you that true Christians aren't limited to a group of people or organization (for now), there will come a time when decisions will have to be made, based not on how WE want to worship God, but rather how HE wants to be worshipped. 
     
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    Micah Ong reacted to TrueTomHarley in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    “The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction.”
    From ‘Who is Leading God’s People Today?’ Pgr 12, February 2017
    That's not to say they have erred in the matter under discussion. It is a translating decision that they have provided abundant justification for in the attached appendix. 
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    Micah Ong reacted to b4ucuhear in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    I just did a little fact checking on the "facts" you use to support your contention. 
    Foxe as a historian
    The author's credibility was challenged as soon as the book first appeared. Detractors accused Foxe of dealing falsely with the evidence, of misusing documents, and of telling partial truths. In every case that he could clarify, Foxe corrected errors in the second edition and third and fourth, final version (for him). In the early nineteenth century the charges were taken up again by a number of authors, most importantly Samuel Roffey Maitland.[42]Subsequently Foxe was considered a poor historian, in mainstream reference works. The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica accused Foxe of "wilful falsification of evidence"; two years later in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Francis Fortescue Urquhart wrote of the value of the documentary content and eyewitness reports, but claimed that Foxe "sometimes dishonestly mutilates his documents and is quite untrustworthy in his treatment of evidence"...
    Objectivity and advocacy
    Foxe's book is in no sense an impartial account of the period. He did not hold to later centuries' notions of neutrality or objectivity, but made unambiguous side glosses on his text,
    So, not all are convinced with the sources or even "facts" you put forward. In fact, I was surprised when looking to find how little I knew myself and how little agreement there is on the matter. The estimates range from zero deaths (suggesting it was all a hoax) to 500 million deaths. Of course I don't subscribe to either of these extremes, but one thing is for certain, there is no overall agreement as to the actual number, which varies from none to many. Naturally, I see, you selected ("cherry picked?") the one that supports your contention. Foxes' "Acts and Monuments" was written in the mid 15th century and was framed primarily as polemic against the Catholic church much later than the time we were discussing. Foxe in no way was "close to the action" so to speak and as a Protestant put it together because he had an "axe to grind" with the Catholic church at the time, well over a thousand years after the "fact."
    I respect that, and while I disagree with much (most actually) of what you are saying it seems to me you are sincere and have put much effort into being a student of God's Word. We should all be doing that. As a side note and not to get too much off topic, (since I don't plan to sit in front of my computer with Micah Ong for the rest of my life - although I may still challenge you on some of the stuff you have written - if I have time), I have a question:
    Matthew Chapter 24, describes events that would indicate a period of time indicating Christ's return and the end of the conclusion of system of things/final time/end of the world...) That period of time, as you are well aware, would be indicated/accompanied by obvious world events, (false Christians - no cheap shot here please; wars and reports of wars; food shortages; earthquakes in one place after another...true Christians being objects of hatred by all the nations. So my question to you is: Do you think that is happening now? Do you believe we are living in the last days according to the sign Jesus gave his disciples? (Let's keep 1914 out of it to keep things simple please and thank-you).
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    Micah Ong got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    It is what it is! @Anna.  What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?  You can't get away from that.  You can't add or take away from God's word no matter what your intention is.  It's his word!
    Deut 4:2 "You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you."
    Deut 12:32 "Every word that I am commanding you is what you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take away from it."
    Rev 22:18,19 "“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.
    If God wanted YHWH there he would have made sure of it, like he did with the Hebrew Scriptures.  But he has reason for not using it.  Jesus is the saviour!  Acts 4:10-12
    Isaiah 43:11 "I-I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior."
    Titus 2:13-3:6 "manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, However, when the kindness and the love for man on the part of our Savior, God, was manifested, This [spirit] he poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior." (Note the New World Translation inclusion of [the] to change the meaning of this passage.)
    It is misrepresenting God if you add the name when it was not in the Christian Greek Scriptures because the New Testament clearly shows that Jesus is the new name under which people must get saved. 
    The Watchtower is deliberately misleading sincere honest hearted people.
    But we can be sure that God reads the heart and knows those who belong to him in all religions even though he does not have a religion. 
    As you are aware ALL religion will be done away with.
    I know how you feel as I would of defended the Watchtower in the past but the scriptures speak for themselves.  I would rather defend the scriptures than defend an organization.  And then encourage people to build up their faith and love built on truths found in the bible.  God blesses that!  Because then you can have a deeper relationship with him based on spirit and truth.
     
     
     
     
     
  11. Like
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    Yes it does matter @Arauna because God meant his word to be presented as he originally intended it.
    From 1385 A.D. onwards, the New Testament Greek manuscripts started to be translated into certain Hebrew versions with the inclusion of YHWH. It is essential to understand that these have no connection whatsoever with the Hebrew Scriptures or Old Testament manuscripts and were not translated until well over one thousand years after Jesus death.
    Jesus never quoted the Father as being Jehovah.  It was illegal to use the divine name and no one would of listened to him.
    Firstborn(Col 1:15) in the scriptures seems to indicate preeminent one(existing before all creation).  David is said to be the first born of Jesse even though he was the youngest.  And in Genesis Manasseh is said to be firstborn but then in Jer 31:9 Ephraim is called firstborn.  The reason of this is because he was to become Lord or Heir.  So in this sense we See that Jesus can aptly be called Lord of Creation.  This lines up with the rest of the scriptures.
    Rev 1:7,8 Jehovah as Alpha and Omega.  Remember though that earliest transcripts say Lord or kurios.  But this essentially means in the NWT no beginning and no end.  Jehovah has no beginning nor end right? 
    And now Jesus talking in Rev 1:17,18 "And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever..."  Jesus also has no beginning or end.
    Gen 18 talks about Jehovah walking on the earth in human form before he walked as Jesus born from Mary.  Not impossible for him to do so.  Abraham prepared and gave food to him(3 men altogether).  Chapter 19 verse one shows that the other two men were angels and had arrived in Sodom.
    John 8:58 Kingdom interlinear Before Abraham to become, I AM.  That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense.
    Exodus 6:2,3 Then God said to Moses: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them
    You say the Hebrew Scriptures are key to understanding the whole bible and this I do not deny. 
    Isaiah 43:10-13 is key and you know it very well: “You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One.  Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none.  11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”  12 “I am the One who declared and saved and made known
    When there was no foreign god among you.  So you are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “and I am God."
    First point regarding this passage is in Isaiah 62:2 He said they would be called by a new name talking about Zion/Jerusalem.  In Acts 11:19 here they are first called Christians.  Wouldn't you agree as Christs followers this would aptly be the new name.  Acts 1:8 "...and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem."  Witnesses of Jesus not Jehovah
    Secondly Isaiah says concerning Jehovah himslelf Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none.  If Jesus was created as a god as John 1:1 states then how can God form a god, when he said: there has been none but would of created him at the time of Abraham.  He wasn't talking about foreign gods or false gods.  Yes Satan is the god of this system but he is only a false god or counterfeit god.  There is only one true God!  Angels aren't gods like Michael.  Arch angel is just a chief angel.
    But If Jesus is God then John 1:1 now makes sense being only one God. Not two.  Emmanual means God is with us so God existing in a man harmonizes with that name as well.
    Acts 4:10-12 - Jesus name alone is the means of salvation.
    It isn't impossible for God to exist in a hyper-static state being the Father in Heaven and being in a limited form as a human.  Yes Jesus was still God but limited as a human.  He can be rightly called the Son because he was born from himself into human form so in that state he can be called Gods son, remember the Jews wanted to stone him because they thought he was saying he was equal to God. 
    We also exist in three states.  Body, Soul(Mind, Emotions), Spirit (energy life force) but God is more dynamic.  Quantum physics demonstrates the rule of entanglement where one particle is entangled with another particle along way away.  So even though we aren't familiar with all his ways Quantum Physics demonstrates hyper-static states in particles.
    What if, just what if Jesus is God!?  Then how much more amazing is the price he paid for us and the agony he went through for us because he love us.  It is mind blowing and so humbling and awe inspiring and feels me with more love and appreciation for him.  1 Tim 3:16
    I was a Jehovah's Witness and left last month and am astounded at what I am learning from the scriptures now.  I do not regret all the education I received as a JW because it helped me to have good study habits and have a good general knowledge of the scriptures.  But believe please believe me the bible does not belong to the Governing Body.  Jesus promised a helper in the Holy Spirit to help under stand the Holy Scriptures.  The scriptures tell us to get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (not a spirit directed organization).  Please let scripture interpret scripture.
    There are 7 names for God in the bible.  The link below describes them well with scriptural reference.
    https://www.gotquestions.org/names-of-God.html
     
  12. Like
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?   
    @Arauna the point is that the Watchtower Organisation as changed the bible to fit doctrine. Rev 22:18 "I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll"
    Jehovah is not found in the New Testament!
    Evidence it did not Appear
    There is much evidence that YHWH never appeared in the New Testament. Most obvious is the absence of YHWH in any of the 5,000 discovered Greek New Testament manuscripts.
    Important evidence is also contained in the writings of the early Christians. These are referred to as the Apostolic Fathers and Ante Nicene Fathers who wrote from the times of the Apostles to the third century. This includes Polycarp, who studied with the Apostle John and Justin Martyr who lived from 110 to 165 A.D. Their extensive writings are a source of information on the early Church, including the formulation of the Trinity doctrine and the development of the Bible Canon. Yet in their writings there is no discussion about the removal of God's name from the Scriptures. If a global conspiracy existed to remove YHWH from the all New Testament manuscripts debate most certainly would have occurred between these writers.
    Furthermore, their works do not contain YHWH when quoting from New Testament Scriptures. For example, in Against Heresies, Irenaeus quotes Matthew 1:20; 4:10 and Romans 11:34, each time using the word Lord instead of Jehovah. Clement, mentioned at Philippians 4:3, wrote the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians between 75 and 110 A.D. and used Kyrios when quoting from the Old Testament. (See 1 Clement 13:5 which quotes Ezekiel 33:11.)
    Justin Martyr converted to Christianity around 150 A.D., a mere 50 years after the Bible was completed. He had access to early copies of the New Testament yet in The Second Apology, Chapter VI he wrote;
    Justin Martyr shows that Christians referred to the Father by appellations, but not a name such as Jehovah.
    That the Holy Name was not being uttered in Jesus day is attested to by first century historian Josephus:
    As we do not have the actual original copies that the Bible writers penned it is always possible to say that YHWH may have appeared in the original copy. However the weight of evidence shows that YHWH was not in the original copies. If the Watchtower claims God allowed men to edit out his name "YHWH" and that no proof has been found to its existence to this day, how can a person have confidence in any of the New Testament?
    The New Testament is one of the most attested ancient documents. The reason a person places trust in it is their conviction that God ensured the Bible has come down to us accurately. If use of the name Jehovah is so important one must wonder why the word never appears in any existing New Testament documents. If God inspired and protected the Bible, keeping the Bible accurate throughout all history why does his name not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts or in the very first Bible, the 5th century Latin Vulgate?
    Conclusion
    The Watchtower presents the following paradox; Jehovah has not been found in the New Testament because it has been tampered with, but the Bible has been inspired and accurately preserved by Jehovah.
    The divine name appears over nearly 7,000 times in the Old Testament. By Jesus time, it had been removed from most Old Testament translations yet Jesus never mentioned or criticised the removal. As this indicates that Jesus did not feel this was an important omission whether Jehovah appears in modern translations of the Old Testament is up to the discretion of the translation. On the other hand, as Jehovah does not appear in the New Testament it so should not be added to by translations such as the NWT.
    As Jehovah was not used in the New Testament, use of the word Jehovah cannot be a necessary requirement for salvation. Rather, the New Testament shows that Jesus is the name through which salvation comes. Jesus words show that God is to be addressed as Lord or Father.
    By the time of Jesus, YHWH was not in regular use. The divine name does not appear in any known manuscripts of the New Testament, indicating that Jesus kept to the tradition and law on not using the Divine Name. To include Jehovah in the New Testament the Watchtower Society has taken liberties with God's Word. An assumption has been made in order to give weight to Watchtower doctrine. The effect is an inaccurate understanding of what Jesus taught. It affects a Jehovah's Witness ability to reason correctly on subjects such as the Trinity and to understand what the Bible says as to Jesus' role in salvation.
  13. Like
    Micah Ong reacted to Evacuated in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    True. And many of those have grown up in JW families. Or have brought their wealth, education and position with them. This puts the lie to the claim that JW's experience "total control" or are in some way deprived of education and opportunity etc. But...Did you miss the point of Paul's counsel?
    Well I thought you would know better than that too. Why should other's suffering be a source of amusement?
    And the majority (alive in 1968) were likely alive when Armageddon DID NOT break out as some expected....many probably still alive today.
    The important thing is to be alive AFTER Armageddon has been accomplished is it not? And as no man knows the day and hour of that event..then it is no crime to strive to be ready for it surely? Peter advised us to "look forward to the day of God and speed (hasten) its coming." (2Pet.3:12) And therefore to "make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him."(2Pet.3:14). NIV quotes.
    Now certainly, and in harmony with the original post, our correct estimation of and appreciation of the role Jesus Christ plays in our salvation is of paramount importance here. So, in answer to the question raised "Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus?"  A resounding "Yes!"
  14. Like
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Queen Esther in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Yes all in the Hebrew Scriptures with the nation of Israel - they used that name.  The New Testament is the final revelation by God in the Bible and YHWH is not in the New Testament.  You're going against Philippians 2:9 "God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name."
  15. Like
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Queen Esther in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Haha no I wasn't born then!  Surely that is overkill though.  There are plenty of well off JW's who have high qualifications like doctors and laywers and are they falling into snares and hurtful desires?  No!  So you are misapplying the scripture as the Leading Men at that time were. 
    So are you laughing at people that did suffer then because of date speculation?
    And this isn't date speculation?
    1968 "Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of mans existence on earth is completed... The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more." (Kingdom Ministry, March 1968, p. 4 [note: 1968 + 90 months = 1975])
    I pray that your heart softens.
  16. Like
    Micah Ong reacted to Queen Esther in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    In  some  things  I  agree  with  you,   @Micah Ong ...  so,  I  wanted  give  you  a  like !   We  all  made  &  maybe  still  make  mistakes  about  the  Bible....   The  JW  and  also  our  WT  Org. JW  -    bec.  we  are  ALL   imperfect  here  on  Earth    ONLY  our  Creator  Jehovah  as  Almighty  GOD  &  HIS   Son  Jesus,  as  perfect  human,  NEVER  made  mistakes !   I  not  want  to  get  involved  by  so  many  Bible - discussions  here,  bec. first  my  German  language,  my  time - difference  and  bec. not  a  perfect  human...  Greetings  from  Germany  ;-)
  17. Like
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Queen Esther in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    I never said come to me I am not your mediator to God, I'm not saying I have all the answers, no one on earth does!  As I pointed out Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.  I do not ascribe to any religion and agree with the early statements of the Watchtower that "Religion is a Snare and a Racket!"  I do see the Watchtower as a very successful book publishing company that has cleverly grown through free labor.
    It's clear that JW's elevate Jehovah's name over Jesus name when God has elevated Jesus name as the name above every other name - Philippians 2:9; also the person we are saved under - Acts 4:10.  The New Testament is God's final revelation in the Bible not the old Testament so why go back to Isaiah 43:10 and contradict Acts 1:8.  Jesus never said to call on YHWH for salvation and never said to address the Father as YHWH.
    But the Governing Body are meant to be God's channel!  "Mystical manipulation can take on a special quality in these cults because the leaders become mediators for God." "
    "That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel." Watchtower 2013 Jul 15 p.20
          Identifying those used by Jehovah     Bible Times Watchtower Governing Body Miracles Jehovah used miraculous works to identify those chosen to lead others. For example:
    Noah - Gathering of the animals
    Moses - Staff into a snake
    Apostles - Gifts of the spirit, such as faith healing

       None Prophecy When Jehovah used a person to make future predictions, the prophecies were always correct. For example, Daniel's prophecy for the fall of Babylon and the line of world powers 100% of Watchtower predictions have been false, such as that the end of the world would be in 1914, then 1925, then 1975. Furthermore, the generation teaching promoted prior to 1995 is proven to be false, as the last survivors born prior to 1914 die out. Consistency Bible is harmonious, with Bible writers presenting a message without contradiction. Watchtower doctrine has been in constant flux. This cannot be explained as new light, as there have been numerous flip flops and contradictions, such as the generation teaching, organ transplants, and superior authorities.  
    Why would I trust the Watchtower to save me at Armageddon when their track record shows me that even their well meaning assertions were wrong.  I don't think I would take the so-called 'instructions that won't make sense from a human tactical point at Armageddon' when they do not have any reliable track record.  Compare this to Joshua addressing the Israelites - Joshua 23:14 "...not one word has failed."
    All religions have elements of truth in them but no one religion has the absolute truth.  I know the Jehovah's Witnesses have the saying that we are in the "truth."  Well that's not true because it keeps changing.  Come on lets be honest here.
    There a lot's of good things with Jehovah's Witnesses because of the teachings of bible based principles, but I see that with many other christian groups as well.  What I don't see are soup kitchens or other charitable ways of helping the unfortunate unless they happen to be in a disaster area close other Jehovah's Witnesses.
    I believe your own sincere heartfelt personal relationship with God through his word, prayer and encouragement from fellow believers (true Bible believing Christians), and common sense is all that required.  You can share that with others at anytime as well.  I think religion has complicated things and created a lot of fear and a huge sense of obligation.  Life is a precious gift from our creator and the price for our sins has been paid.  Your not going to live a life against God if you sincerely accept that. 
     
  18. Like
    Micah Ong reacted to Queen Esther in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    No  man  can  come  to  me  unless  the  Father,  who  sent  me,  draws  him.  JOHN,  6, 44  ❤
  19. Upvote
    Micah Ong reacted to Micah Ong in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Old Light
    New Light
    "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" Rutherford, 1920.
    "You can survive the end of this system of things" Watchtower 6/15/89, p7
    "Millions Now Dead Will Live Again" Watchtower, May l, 1990
    Never Die
    will DIE & live again!
     
    Examples Old light
    Original prophecy New light
    More specific prophecy
    (Adds to old light) Black light
    Failed prophecy
    (contradicts old light) We will give an answer the answer is yes the answer is now no! It will be a colour It will be blue We were wrong about blue, it will now be red It will rain It will rain today We were wrong about today, it will rain tomorrow Armegaddon is in the Bible Armageddon in 1925 & 1975 We were wrong when we said 1975 & 1925 Will the men of Sodom be resurrected?
    Yes
    Watchtower 7/18/79 p. 8 No
    Watchtower 6/1/52 p. 338 Yes
    Watchtower78/1/65 p. 47g No
    Watchtower7 6/1/88 p. 31 Yes
    Live Forever (old ed. ) p. 179 No
    Live Foreverr (new ed. ) p. 179 Yes
    Insight, vol. 2, p. 985 No
    Revelation. book, p. 273 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.  Wt Feb Study E 2017 Who is Leading God's People? par 12
    Moses, prophets and others were directed by Jehovah personally with direct inspiration.  Jehovah's direction was never wrong through the prophets.  They made mistakes of course because of there imperfections but when God spoke prophecy or direction through them they were fulfilled or took place.  Any flip flops in understanding belongs to man and not to "new light."
    When an organisation claims to be God's only true representatives, it cannot afford to be wrong once, especially in prophecy! 
    I thought Jesus was meant to of been head of the organization since 1919!
    1922 '1914 ended the Gentile Times...The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures...by then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed' (Watchtower Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262)
    1923 '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge' (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106)
    1924 "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)
    1924 "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914. (Watchtower 1924, p. 211)
    So Jesus as head of the congregation was leading in a false manner.  False light to be then adjusted later on to true understanding.
    Human wisdom is fallacious but Jesus and God's Holy spirit are not. (see below)
    1989 They have a modern Governing Body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God's people. these men, like the apostles and older men in Jerusalem in the first century, are anointed members of the faithful and discreet slave class designated by Jesus to care for all of his Kingdom interests here upon earth. History has proved that they can be trusted to follow the direction of the holy spirit and that they do not rely on human wisdom in teaching the flock of God the ways of genuine peace. (The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1989; p. 6)
    Failed prophecy of the generation that will not pass away - Human wisdom and interpretation not directed by God. (see below)
    1992 "Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. 'When you see all these things,' Jesus PROMISED, 'know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that THIS generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' - Matthew 24:33, 34." (Watchtower May 1, 1992 page 3: The Year That Shocked The World)
    Jehovah's Witnesses say they have new light. But the old light is not light, it is failed prophecy and interpretation.  So the "increased light" e.g 'the generation that saw the generation that saw the events of 1914, would not pass away,' has it's basis on faulty light to begin with.  Would Jesus and the Holy Spirit be responsible for that?

    Deuteronomy 18:22  When a prophet speaks in the name of JEHOVAH and the thing does not happen or come true, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
     
    Revelation 22:18  I testify and warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book [its predictions, consolations, and admonitions]: if anyone adds [anything] to them, God will add to him the plagues (afflictions, calamities) which are written in this book;
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
  20. Downvote
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Bible Speaks in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Old Light
    New Light
    "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" Rutherford, 1920.
    "You can survive the end of this system of things" Watchtower 6/15/89, p7
    "Millions Now Dead Will Live Again" Watchtower, May l, 1990
    Never Die
    will DIE & live again!
     
    Examples Old light
    Original prophecy New light
    More specific prophecy
    (Adds to old light) Black light
    Failed prophecy
    (contradicts old light) We will give an answer the answer is yes the answer is now no! It will be a colour It will be blue We were wrong about blue, it will now be red It will rain It will rain today We were wrong about today, it will rain tomorrow Armegaddon is in the Bible Armageddon in 1925 & 1975 We were wrong when we said 1975 & 1925 Will the men of Sodom be resurrected?
    Yes
    Watchtower 7/18/79 p. 8 No
    Watchtower 6/1/52 p. 338 Yes
    Watchtower78/1/65 p. 47g No
    Watchtower7 6/1/88 p. 31 Yes
    Live Forever (old ed. ) p. 179 No
    Live Foreverr (new ed. ) p. 179 Yes
    Insight, vol. 2, p. 985 No
    Revelation. book, p. 273 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.  Wt Feb Study E 2017 Who is Leading God's People? par 12
    Moses, prophets and others were directed by Jehovah personally with direct inspiration.  Jehovah's direction was never wrong through the prophets.  They made mistakes of course because of there imperfections but when God spoke prophecy or direction through them they were fulfilled or took place.  Any flip flops in understanding belongs to man and not to "new light."
    When an organisation claims to be God's only true representatives, it cannot afford to be wrong once, especially in prophecy! 
    I thought Jesus was meant to of been head of the organization since 1919!
    1922 '1914 ended the Gentile Times...The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures...by then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed' (Watchtower Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262)
    1923 '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge' (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106)
    1924 "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)
    1924 "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914. (Watchtower 1924, p. 211)
    So Jesus as head of the congregation was leading in a false manner.  False light to be then adjusted later on to true understanding.
    Human wisdom is fallacious but Jesus and God's Holy spirit are not. (see below)
    1989 They have a modern Governing Body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God's people. these men, like the apostles and older men in Jerusalem in the first century, are anointed members of the faithful and discreet slave class designated by Jesus to care for all of his Kingdom interests here upon earth. History has proved that they can be trusted to follow the direction of the holy spirit and that they do not rely on human wisdom in teaching the flock of God the ways of genuine peace. (The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1989; p. 6)
    Failed prophecy of the generation that will not pass away - Human wisdom and interpretation not directed by God. (see below)
    1992 "Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. 'When you see all these things,' Jesus PROMISED, 'know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that THIS generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' - Matthew 24:33, 34." (Watchtower May 1, 1992 page 3: The Year That Shocked The World)
    Jehovah's Witnesses say they have new light. But the old light is not light, it is failed prophecy and interpretation.  So the "increased light" e.g 'the generation that saw the generation that saw the events of 1914, would not pass away,' has it's basis on faulty light to begin with.  Would Jesus and the Holy Spirit be responsible for that?

    Deuteronomy 18:22  When a prophet speaks in the name of JEHOVAH and the thing does not happen or come true, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
     
    Revelation 22:18  I testify and warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book [its predictions, consolations, and admonitions]: if anyone adds [anything] to them, God will add to him the plagues (afflictions, calamities) which are written in this book;
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
  21. Upvote
    Micah Ong reacted to Micah Ong in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Yes the "Holy Spirit" not a "Spirit Directed Organization."
    The word "Organization" does not appear in the Bible.
    "Organization" and "Governing Body" are corporate titles.
  22. Upvote
    Micah Ong reacted to Micah Ong in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    According to the Jehovah's Witnesses only the "anointed" go to the Father through Jesus, the rest of the "great crowd" go through the anointed then Jesus then the Father so John 14:6 doesn't apply to you.  You pray personally to the Father through Jesus which is good but according to the doctrine you do not have a direct connection to Jesus and his Father.  Only the anointed do which is not based on scripture.
    There are no anointed and non-anointed classes in scripture.  Christ means anointed and Jesus said there would be many Christ's(anointed plural).
    Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
    The Bible has been provided for people to know God's requirements. Has the Watchtower enlightened people beyond the words of Jesus? Is it not more accurate to say that what the Watchtower has said beyond that contained in the Bible has regularly been wrong and later changed? Information such as:
    Failed time prophecies Strange medical information and dangerous decrees such as that vaccinations and transplants are unchristian The changing stance on blood By going beyond the guidelines given in the Scriptures on disfellowshipping, have not the Slave created a practice that has had a destructive effect on the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, dividing families for decades?
    When a group of men claim special guidance from God as his sole representatives, they risk controlling people without justification, leading to disastrous results for the followers. Christians do well to keep in mind Bible warnings about following humans, and remember who their head really is.
     
     
  23. Downvote
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Bible Speaks in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    Yes the "Holy Spirit" not a "Spirit Directed Organization."
    The word "Organization" does not appear in the Bible.
    "Organization" and "Governing Body" are corporate titles.
  24. Downvote
    Micah Ong got a reaction from Bible Speaks in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    According to the Jehovah's Witnesses only the "anointed" go to the Father through Jesus, the rest of the "great crowd" go through the anointed then Jesus then the Father so John 14:6 doesn't apply to you.  You pray personally to the Father through Jesus which is good but according to the doctrine you do not have a direct connection to Jesus and his Father.  Only the anointed do which is not based on scripture.
    There are no anointed and non-anointed classes in scripture.  Christ means anointed and Jesus said there would be many Christ's(anointed plural).
    Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
    The Bible has been provided for people to know God's requirements. Has the Watchtower enlightened people beyond the words of Jesus? Is it not more accurate to say that what the Watchtower has said beyond that contained in the Bible has regularly been wrong and later changed? Information such as:
    Failed time prophecies Strange medical information and dangerous decrees such as that vaccinations and transplants are unchristian The changing stance on blood By going beyond the guidelines given in the Scriptures on disfellowshipping, have not the Slave created a practice that has had a destructive effect on the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, dividing families for decades?
    When a group of men claim special guidance from God as his sole representatives, they risk controlling people without justification, leading to disastrous results for the followers. Christians do well to keep in mind Bible warnings about following humans, and remember who their head really is.
     
     
  25. Downvote
    Micah Ong reacted to Bible Speaks in Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in Jesus? Yes!   
    26 "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you." (John 14:26)
    "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28)

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