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bruceq

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bruceq last won the day on June 18 2017

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  1. I just came from HQ as well we went in beginning of November. I took pictures of everything on display as well. Here is 4Q120 - I also have the Psalms Scroll, Ten Commandments and Septuagint all on papyrus and many more including Facsimiles and Originals of much of what is at Bethel on ebay. {Lisa.joeywit}
  2. Agree but perhaps why Pella is mentioned is because that is where most of the Christians went or perhaps that is where the "Apostles" went - again it is all conjecture. My only point is that the caves may have been used by more than just Jews and therefore Jewish Christians. Most if not all the mss left there were from Jews but why couldn't other religious groups such as Jewish Christians {Apostles} been there. {Likely the Apostles were in Jerusalem in 66 C.E. as just a few years prior the issue in Acts 15 came up they went to the Apostles and elders in "Jerusalem".
  3. Agree - however Jesus said to those in "Judea" not just Jerusalem to "flee to the mountains" obviously if they took the words exactly they would not have fled to the mountains around Jerusalem but would have left the province of Judea of which Pella or any of the mountains on the other side of the Jordan would have sufficed. Sorry about my "wording" it is all conjecture of course i was not an A student in English class. lol..
  4. Sorry i am not a college professor or anything like that. I just have an interest in the subject and have about 250 books dealing with it and thought i would give my 2 cents as i do enjoy discussing this subject. I have read and studied Shaws book about a year ago and i was just giving a theory as an interesting possibility for discussion. As for more proof of 4Q120 possibly being of Christian origin please read pgs. 45 - 51 of the following ; "The use of a form of the Tetragrammaton within the 4Q120 manuscript was admittedly the major reason for classi-fying it as of Jewish origin. In the light of the available in-formation today (such as lowering the date of the common use of the Tetragrammaton and the evidenced longstanding use of Ιαω among Christians], might a Jewish Christian ori-gin of the manuscript, penned sometime during the first cen-tury CE be considered possible? Some positive factors for such a hypothesis are the following"
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  5. {When the Christians left Jerusalem in 66 C.E. they traveled right past the Qumran cave where this scroll came from "Cave 4" on there way to the mountains of Pella north along the Jordan River}!!!? [Looking at a map of Jerusalem to Pella (see attached picture below) Cave 4 would be many miles out of the way. Jesus indicated that the Christians in Jerusalem should take the quickest route.] The reason I came up with this theory of the path was according to terrain maps they would not have taken the "as a bird flies" route because of terrain but would have taken the already existing roads of which the main one went directly east from Jerusalem to the northern tip of the Dead Sea where cave 4 is located then would have traveled up the Jordan river to Pella. People other than Jews used the caves over the Centuries for shelter - why coudn't the Christians have done so as well? Not that any of this really matters but I was just offering a possibility that this MSS may have been written by Christians since the early Church Fathers mentioned IAO as coming from the "Scriptures" and many other indications as presented above such as by Chrysostom and Origen. I realize none in academic circles of Christendom agrees but that does not mean they are correct just because they are a majority view. {As for dates used by scholars obviously nothing is exact and dates can be off by a couple centuries certainly 50 BC to 50 CE is within possiblity for the margin of error}. However much evidence for a Christian origin can be found here :Â
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  6.  Here is an interesting theory: Here is a museum quality reproduction of the Septuagint fragment of  "4Q120 or  pap4QLXXLevb  "of Leviticus 4:27 frame included.     There is evidence that this fragment may have been written by a CHRISTIAN and not by Jews. Although most scholars say that this fragment was written by a Jew because it is from Leviticus and from the Qumran caves. But did only Jews use the Qumran caves? {When the Christians left Jerusalem in 66 C.E. they traveled right past the Qumran cave where this scroll came from "Cave 4" on there way to the mountains of Pella north along the Jordan River}!!! The Christians also made copies of the Hebrew Scriptures which they would have translated into Greek the main language of the First Century. The main reason why this was probably written by a Christian is because the Divine Name in this fragment "IAW" {Iao} is a PRONOUNCEABLE rendering of the Tetragrammaton. A Jew following the custom at the time of not pronouncing the Divine Name would never have written a PRONOUNCEABLE RENDERING as that would go against their traditions. However Christians did not follow Jewish traditions as Jesus denounced such very strongly. Jews who wrote the earliest pre-Christian LXX wrote the Tetragrammaton in HEBREW within a GREEK TEXT in most cases making it stand out in order not to pronounce it. However this manuscript 4Q120 is in ALL Greek including the rendering of the Tetragrammaton!!! Thus Origen {184 - 253 C.E.} an early Church Father testifies that "When Iao is laid in the text it is pronounced as by Greeks NOT HEBREWS". Also John Chrysostom {349 - 407 C.E.} stated :"Regarding IAO - a name of God Hebrews left UNTRANSLATED". So a Hebrew or Jew would not have written "IAO" for God's Name as that was a Greek TRANSLATION OF YHWH. The following early CHRISTIAN Fathers also made reference to "IAO as being in the Scriptures during their time {130 to 538 C.E.} Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, John Chrysostom, Jerome, Theodoret and Severus.   The date for this fragment 4Q120 or pap4QLXXLevb   is from the late 1st Century BCE - early 1st Century C.E. and thus known by Jesus and the First Century Bible writers! Therefore one of Jesus Apostles may have written this fragment early in the Christian Congregations existence as they were commissioned to preach to ALL the earth in the Great Commission then they would naturally have translated the Hebrew Scriptures into GREEK as well as the writings of the New Testament. {See also Vat 2125 Codex Marchalianus {6th Century C.E.} which has a greek tetragrammaton in the margins of a CHRISTIAN manuscript as well as IAO and the Nomina Sacra all together for YHWH!!! {Which we offer a page facsimile here on ebay as well}. That means that the First Century New Testament Bible writers may have Translated the Divine Name as "IAO" {Which is JEHOVAH in English} in the Bible since the early Church Fathers stated that ""IAO" comes from the SCRIPTURES" !!! And many Christian writings after the First Century had "IAO" as a Greek transliteration for YHWH. Gnostic Christians began to misuse God's Name in magical practices in later Centuries however the evidence clearly shows that "IAO" was God's name in Greek when the New Testament was originally written!     So this fragment 4Q120 may have been written by a Christian translator not governed by Jewish traditions who wanted to witness to gentiles or hellenized Jews {Who only understood Greek} in the First Century sometime after 30 C.E. The evidence indicates from manuscripts and early Church Fathers is that New Testament Bible writers writing in Greek Scripture used the Divine Name in Greek as "IAO" in the New Testament for YHWH !!! {Josephus mentioned that God's Name was four VOWELS rather than consonants so he may have been referring to the Greek transliteration since is was all vowels IAO which became in Latin "Iehova" then in English as JehOvAh = JAH "I" became "J" in English - examples: Jehovah, Jesus, Jehoshophat, Jehoram and many more}.       Reasons that this manuscript may have been written by a Christian scribe:  1. Christians were not governed by Jewish traditions of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton 2. Christians made many translations to spread the Bible message over "all" in earth in every language, especially Greek in the First Century 3. Christians were well renowned for copying expertise and 4Q120 was an exemplar as one of the best and was uncorrupted. 4. Christians used the Tetragrammaton in various forms especially "IAW" as noted by Origen and other early Church Fathers 5. Many Qumran Scrolls came from outside the community and stored there. 6. Some Greek speaking Jewish Christians may have deposited scrolls there such as when they left Jerusalem in 66 C.E. they passed right next to Cave 4 and 7 where 4Q120 was in cave 4 and Christians used papyrus extensively as well. {See P. Comfort}. 7. For centuries Christians incessantly read and reproduced Greek, Hebrew and Latin forms of the Tetragrammaton in Hexapla and Biblical onomastica {Lexicons with IAO} and Patristic literature. 8. Compelling evidence that some Greek Bible copies like the ones read by Christians such as Ireaneus, Origen, Eusebius, Tertullian, Jerome and others were ALL using "IAW" for the Tetragrammaton !!! {See writings by Pavlos D. Vasileiadis from Thessalonika University Greece}. Thus Greek Translations of the New Testament may have contained the Greek Tetragrammaton transliteration "IAW" just as 4Q120 of Leviticus also does.   Thus the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures in restoring the Divine Name to the Bible have much evidence that the Tetragrammaton was in the First Century original autographs of the New Testament Scriptures weather they wrote it in Hebrew or Greek. And both the Greek transliteration of IAO and the Hebrew YHWH was well known to those in the First Century!!!  {We have also acquired much of the other evidence from the early Church Fathers that used "IAO" in their writings thus proving that the early Christians did indeed use the Tetragrammaton in their writings as well as testimony from then that the original autographs of the New Testament contained the Tetragrammaton. We sell all of these here on ebay - look up each Church Father by name or "IAO" in search.}  This is from the following ebay link :Â
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  7. only available hardcopy is U.S. edition, International is digital only.
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  8. I realize that I am not an elder or former elder such as some of you are but I know what Loyalty to Jehovah is. And since a forum such as this one it is impossible to determine who is or is not an apostate, disfellowshipped or pretending to be a brother while dispensing divisions and we are obviously associating together here it is my decision to now leave as I wish to cherish true Loyalty to my Creator. Loyalty is important to me personally probably because my two previous marriages ended with my wife committing adultery although we were married for 7 and 10 years. So I can see how Jehovah must feel when someone who says they love you are disloyal to your face. I am currently married to my wife of 8 years and I believe we both must continue to develop loyalty to GOD FIRST then to each other. "Do ALL things for God's glory" 1 Cor. 10:31. And I no longer feel it is for me "God's glory" to be here. Goodbye.
  9. "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of ANY sort." Titus 1:16. All the upvoters of apostates just continue to prove the point. Keep it up.Â
  10. We know. Satan can say things that are true also. But Titus 1:16 - he is not approved by God anymore than a blogger is who upvotes apostates and agrees with their haughty attitudes or "special interpretations". Â
  11. Makes one ponder when so-called "brothers" upvote an apostate. Puts into question and their motivation and everything they have ever tried to teach on any subject. I had a cousin back in the late 70's who was an elder who became apostate and ridiculed the teaching of 1914 and became a leader of a group of them picketing District Conventions in the early 80"s that is until his name showed up in the newspaper for being a john for a prostitute then for some reason the picketing stopped and they disappeared.  "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of ANY sort." Titus 1:16. You just proved my point. Thanks Â
  12. Makes one ponder when so-called "brothers" upvote an apostate. Puts into question and their motivation and everything they have ever tried to teach on any subject. I had a cousin back in the late 70's who was an elder who became apostate and ridiculed the teaching of 1914 and became a leader of a group of them picketing District Conventions in the early 80"s that is until his name showed up in the newspaper for being a john for a prostitute then for some reason the picketing stopped and they disappeared. Â "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of ANY sort." Titus 1:16.Â
  13. And since Jesus said "I am the way..." then the true faith would be Christian yet not believe in the Trinity. Very good point - we are the one. JW.ORG.
  14. So you believe it is proper to question Jehovah and His Organization. I can see it now...you approach Jehovah and say: I have the authority to question what the Governing Body is teaching us even though YOU appointed them with the authority to interpret things to us because I spent a few years at Bethel. Once again here is insiders path of interpretation away from Jehovah's Organization. With your teachings you may attract some undesirables {even opposers}  as they see disunity by not following the teachings of Jehovah's Organization. 1 Cor. 1:10, Mt. 24:45.  -  And now I see it has happened!!!
  15. So you DO believe in the authority of the Governing Body to interpret "Presence, Sign, Gentile Times..." Or in YOUR authority to interpret these things to us?
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