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JW Insider

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  1. Yes, but surely you have heard of the "MAN in the MOON." Or we could compromise with "MON" Anyway, these are very nice pictures of the moon. Also I saw it for that last couple of evenings, and it's very beautiful.
  2. For some reason the images are lying on top of one another and are covering up the "Edit" button. But here are a few more, in case the idea wasn't clear. Â Â Â Â Â
  3. Yikes! I just recalled that same phenomenon myself. I also knew a pioneer and a special pioneer who carried around that same Awake! magazine for years -- as late as 1973 and 1974 while I was pioneering with them. While in the Art Department at Brooklyn Bethel, I learned that the artist who drew this cover had died a few years before but that he was remembered for his ability to create these special headline fonts with no help from stat cameras or photographic effects. He also had done the famous piece of graphic art for the Truth book completely by hand. I saw the drawer over at the Photoplate building in the 8th floor of Factory 1 where this brother ended up doing the same chart in 30 languages, also by hand. No one else could execute the fonts as he could. An early copy of his Awake! cover was there, too. The Awake! cover "Is It Later Than You Think?" had been called the Hitchcock cover. I remember this because it was a Sister Hickock, I think, (the married couple Randy and Maureen both worked in Photoplate) who mentioned it. The hypnotic, hallucinogenic style was probably supposed to conjure up the idea of a spiritist trying to look into the future. The Hitchcock reference must have come from the color scheme and ideas from posters like: Â Â Â
  4. Thanks for the setup . . . The Moon orbits Earth at a speed of 2,288 miles per hour (3,683 kilometers per hour). During this time it travels a distance of 1,423,000 miles (2,290,000 kilometers).  Some guns shoot bullets at only 800 miles per hour. So the moon is also "faster than a speeding bullet" and of course it's more powerful than a locomotive. It's odd to think that when NASA sent men to the moon, they were landing on a very fast "bullet."
  5. I think I understand the sentiment of this first idea, that there was something appealing about being able to know the Bible's "historical sweep" of 6,000 years, and even the fact that the Bible had left enough internal evidence to count large unbroken portions of this chronology without any required references to secular support. (From Adam to Zedekiah, as it were.) With a little help from interpretation and some secular "tent-pins" we could even reach from Adam to Jesus and fit all this into a chronological framework that included the Creation, the Flood, the Exodus, the Davidic kingdom, the coming of the Messiah, the destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple, The Return/Rebuilding, second destruction in 70 C.E., the probable timing of Paul's missionary journeys, etc. I was not the type of person back in 1966 to think that any of us were supposed to speculate. I heard the talk about 1975 at the 1966 summer district convention, probably twice. I thought that maturity meant that we studied the publications, reasoned on them, and then made solid decisions based on accurate knowledge. My brother was 11 and I was 9 and we both were assigned in 1966 to read the book "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God." and "Things in which it is Impossible for God to Lie." If we read these books and studied all the baptism questions in the book "Your Word is a Lamp to My Foot" then we would both be ready for baptism in the spring 1967 circuit assembly, although we both waited until the summer convention. I don't remember personally thinking much about 1975 back in 1966 even when I read the "Life Everlasting" book that covered the topic. I read it as saying that we should be ready for Armageddon because it could happen sooner than we think. The goal, I thought, was to remind those who weren't taking Armageddon seriously, to remember that even the chronology shows that it might be "later than you think." I really didn't think that anyone was supposed to read the book and begin saying that Armageddon was going to happen in 1975. I don't recall any "hysteria" either. There were those who took it more seriously than others, but prior to 1975, I don't really remember anyone trying to point out exactly why they were taking it more seriously based on specific wording in the publications that they had caught and other people had missed. My mother was of the opinion that Armageddon would more likely take place in 1974 or 1976 because if it happened in 1975 that's when everyone would be expecting it, and it has to come when we are NOT expecting it. Once I told her that if she could just convince everyone that this was true, then it couldn't happen in 1974 or 1976 either, could it? This is probably correct. And I'm sure it happened that some were trying to show how the Watchtower was not being specific about Armageddon in 1975, even though we had heard about 4 District Overseers be as specific as Brother Sinutko. (My father would take us to two district assemblies per year because his work on the Sound systems kept him from paying close attention to the content. So we'd take one assembly in the Midwest and then we'd go back to California for two weeks to visit relatives and take in an assembly while we were out there. My California grandparents or circuit-overeer uncle were always sending us copies of the special talks and I think I heard about three other Sinutko-styled talks: similar content, but without his dramatic delivery. Then I remember the circuit overseers would give at least one talk per visit from about 1968 to 1971 that emphasized that there could have been very little time between Adam's and Eve's creation, just months or even weeks. I believe it was 1969 when the circuit assembly talk on 'the time left is reduced' included a big chart of the the number of months left between 1969 and October 1975. That same idea was used at another assembly. My father had a talk at an assembly in 1970 where he let slip a reminder that none of us should get so excited that we stop taking care of our teeth, for example, because "no one knows the day or the hour." He added the scripture from Matthew 24:36. The District Overseer was angry and met with my father and the circuit overseer telling my father that this was not the spirit of the talk, which was to encourage excitement. The District Overseer read him the Watchtower from two years prior: *** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 par. 35 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? *** One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of manÂ’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. My father got counseled for "toying" with the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:36 by adding them to an assembly talk. And he was not assigned another circuit assembly part for 3 years. I also saw my father counsel another elder who worked for him, and who had seemingly gone overboard and had begun embarrassing him (and all other Witnesses for that matter) by starting to preach to others who came into my father's office and one of the labs my father ran at the University of Missouri. He was preaching 1975 explicitly. This brother and his wife had been Gilead missionaries back home from Ecuador when they were expecting their first baby. My father gave him a part time job in the afternoons, and I also came back after a day of pioneering at 3:00 to work (aka "play") in the electronics labs for a couple hours. I remember this was the first work day in January 1975 and he was announcing to people that this was the year for Armageddon. This was the first time I heard a brother (fellow elder) talk to my father using argumentation from the actual wording of Watchtower publications that he was convinced were saying something more than conjecture. It was just that the Watchtower, for some reason, didn't want to word it so explicitly that it would sound like a prophecy. It was left for us to notice the clues, he thought. I can't remember any of the exact examples this elder had used. But it was clear that his general position was that it was the more astute brothers who were seeing it, and it was a serious thing to take notice, and that only the weaker, less spiritually mature Witnesses were downplaying the idea. I disagreed and took my father's side on this. I remember only shrugging, having nothing to say when the brother looked over to me for some agreement. It was as if he was sure his argument was winning, and he was saying to me "I'm right! Right? You can see it. Right?" I don't remember my father even looking at me, or talking about it with him. Now I wonder if he thought he had been counseled for actually missing something, but he held his ground through the rest of the year. I remember my brother and my mother would also discuss it because my brother had started a business in 1974 which was doing very well, and I went to work for him for a year before going to Bethel. My father would always encourage the business, and my mother was afraid that starting a business, especially a successful one, was a scary thing that would make him forget about 1975. My brother sold his business 3 years later and got to Bethel after me, even though 2 years older. But my mother was not caught up in any hysteria either. As I said, I don't remember any "Armageddon Ernie" types. I don't even think anyone was really speculating in any negative sense. It's just that there were two ways to read the statements in the Watchtower from about 1966 to 1973. By 1974, the Watchtower was clearly downplaying the earlier rhetoric, so looking back I'd say the highest level of "speculation" was the idea that this "downplaying" was only for the outside public, but that we, on the inside, were supposed to continue "knowing" secretly that the earlier statements were still in effect. Of course, none of this means that the Watchtower ever predicted 1975 for Armageddon. The prediction, except for a few circuit and district overseer statements, were not about 1975, per se, but about the fact that the system could not go on more than a few months or years beyond 1975. It wasn't about what 1975 would bring, but: What will the 1970's bring?: Â
  6. I fixed it twice, and each time I checked it, it had stayed the same -- my fix didn't take. I just finally fixed it and it looks like it will stay this time. The twist on your picture is, of course, from the Superman series, which always included the words: Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. The infant of Krypton is now the Man of Steel: Superman!  -- Superman (1941) - Quotes - IMDb
  7. I thought it would be a good idea to look into the ways in which we defend ourselves against the claims about 1975, and the way in which we answer questions about it. As a good example I will start with the way in which a person answered a 1975 challenge on YAHOO ANSWERS. The person signed their name as BAR-ANERGES. I'll assume the person is male. He is evidently not a member of this forum, and may no longer be alive, for all I know. But if anyone knows him, or his whereabouts, I hope he gets a chance to respond himself. I'll just make some short comments to state my own opinion of what he said. I'll mark his words in a different color, like red. It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975. He's right that it is incorrect to claim that "the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975." For a couple of reasons. The most important reason is that this supposed claim is a kind of "straw man" that is worded in such a way that it diverts attention from the main point. It's true that no Witnesses should have been saying that Armageddon would come in 1975, in the sense that it must definitely come in 1975. The real question should be whether the claim is true that Jehovah's Witnesses promoted the idea that the Bible had marked the year 1975 in such a way that we could confidently claim that Armageddon should be expected within just a few years, or even just a few months, from the year 1975. Did Jehovah's Witnesses make use of this particular time period that focused on the year 1975 to justify the claim that people should decide quickly to convert and join the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses for safety from imminent destruction at Armageddon? Also, the term "the Witnesses" can refer to a wide range of people and opinions. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented in Watchtower publications, then we also have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented by the Watchtower's traveling representatives (circuit overseers, district overseers, branch representatives, Watch Tower Society directors, Governing Body, etc.) then again we have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. Anna has already pointed out that Charles Sinutko's infamous talk is not even consistent within itself. Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying: This statement should raise a red flag immediately. We already know that not everything that was said or written was consistent. So we should be immediately wary of making use of one specific statement to generalize what "mature Witnesses knew and were saying." Also, if we look carefully at all the statements in the Watchtower publications from 1966 to 1975 we can see that by October 1974 the trend of the statements about 1975 had already begun to be more cautious. The most direct statements were made from 1968 to 1973. This is a typical pattern with predictions. It happens in corporations, political and economic analysis, and religion: The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution. Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it. Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful. Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing. Statements about the time period dating back to 1956 were in stage #1. Statements in 1966 were already in stage #2. Dozens of district overseers and circuit overseers along with statements by the service department until 1973 were in stage #3. F.W.Franz himself appeared to remain in stage #3 until 1975, but he also had vacillated into stage #4 at times during the 1974-1975 period. The 1974 summer assemblies, and the 1974 Watchtower quoted here, were in stage #4. Stage #5 had already begun at Bethel as early as late 1975 and early 1976, even though the initial definition of the time period was not about what would happen in 1975, but what would happen in the short number of years or months following 1975. "The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635 "It appears" that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's." Note the backtracking (stage #4). Note even some "finger-pointing" (stage#5) in blaming considerable "individual speculation." The 1966 book (see first post in this topic) said "Six thousand years since man's creation will end in 1975." It did not say "it appears." Now, the new Watchtower didn't even want to use the term "1975" but changed it to "mid-1970's." Previously the question had been "What will the 1970's bring?" But this brings up an important caveat about stage#3 and stage#4 above. As Witnesses, we had an internal policy and external policy. So even while we could expect the more "reckless" stage#3 statements in our own special meetings from traveling overseers, circuit assemblies, and service meetings -- we could expect more careful stage#4 statements when we addressed the public in Sunday public addresses at the same assemblies or district conventions. In preaching, we were careful in such a way that we could even use language that meant stage#4 to the public while we were simultaneously able to treat it as less careful stage#3 speech. Here's a subtle example from a 1970 Watchtower: *** w70 4/15 p. 256 Announcements *** WHAT WILL THE 1970’S BRING? Many believe that the 1970’s will see drastic changes in man’s affairs, some hoping for the better, others fearing the worst. What is your view? Whether good or bad, no man knows for sure unless Jehovah God himself reveals it. Will he do so? His own Word says, Yes! Through his prophet Amos, Jehovah has promised: “For the Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Do not guess! And do not be unprepared! Whatever the future holds, it can work to your good if you read the Bible regularly, assisted by The Watchtower. Send today. One year, $1. Write now and receive free three timely booklets on Bible subjects. While we were not stating it for sure to the public, internally we all knew what it means that Jehovah is revealing his confidential matter to his servants the prophets. We don't have to guess. We don't have to be unprepared. This is the same idea in Sinutko's talk, saying that "we don't have to guess." ( He said: "Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then.") Compare the 1970 announcement to the same type of announcement just 2 years earlier: *** w68 4/15 p. 256 Announcements *** WHAT DOES YOUR FUTURE HOLD? What will the future bring you? Will it bring you peace of mind and security? Will it bring you faith and favor with God? It can! Regular reading of the Bible and following its teachings closely will bring you this and more. To ensure your full appreciation and understanding of what you read you need The Watchtower also. Study it with your Bible and receive the greatest benefit from what lies ahead. Send at once and receive three timely booklets on Bible subjects. One year, $1. This type of ramping up of the rhetoric was common. There are several more examples. I'll stop here for now, so this doesn't become impossibly long.
  8. I believe it's already been calculated, and refers to a time that the Bible has already clarified. And if I'm wrong, which is both possible and likely -- me being human and all -- then it can refer to a time period that will be recognized when it happens. Nothing to calculate from it, and no chronology necessary. Nowhere does the Bible say we have to calculate any of this. There was no mistake. In fact, if we read both Daniel and Revelation carefully we can see why there is nothing for us to calculate. But this, at this point, is just an interpretation which is not necessary to defend here. What I'm stating is just an opinion. I can try to defend it elsewhere under a topic about Daniel and Revelation. I doubt that any JWs really wholeheartedly believe what is currently taught about these time periods, otherwise we would be interested in what exactly was said in those books and assemblies. As it is, we are typically ashamed of the actual contents of those books and assembly speeches, and are forced to only pick and choose sentences out of context. If we really believed that Jesus Christ saw something in the content of those particular assemblies, we would be clamoring to look at whatever Jesus looked at to see if we could better understand the "mind of Christ." Instead, we are satisfied with the idea that, even if most of what was said in the key speeches of those assemblies was false doctrine, or even false prophecies, Jesus still saw their heart condition and was able to ignore the specific things they were saying and focus on the fact that we had been promoting a fairly unique set of core doctrines that were important and true. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the core doctrines that had been true both before and after these assemblies and publications of the time. But our core doctrines were not relevant to the reasons we identify these specific periods in history. Sorry to skip much of your own presentation about the need to calculate other points of reference. I don't see the need to calculate any of these time periods in advance, or be overly concerned over what they might have meant in the past. I keep commenting on my own view of these periods and then erasing it. I'll be happy to do this under another topic, however.
  9. Yes. I've seen some of your proposed math. But I am a strong believer in Paul's words that we need nothing to be written to us about the times and seasons (1Th 5:1). This must mean that there is nothing left to calculate. The very last prophecy that hung on a time calculation was the destruction of Jerusalem, when Jesus said it would happen that armies would encamp around Jerusalem in that same generation, before the people who heard him had died out. And it happened about 34 years after Jesus predicted it to come upon that generation. After that destruction the sign had occurred and the stage was set for Jesus' parousia to appear at any time, but that it would be a bright and shining parousia like lightning, Jesus says. He also says that the parousia will come as a surprise, as unpredictable and unannounced as a thief in the night. People would be going about their business, marrying and being given in marriage, and yet that day of the parousia would come upon them as surprising as the day when the flood came in Noah's time, or when the fire came in Lot's time. Right up until the time when the parousia appears, people will be saying "where is this promised parousia of his?" while most people are still going about their business much the same way as they have since the beginning of time.
  10. Hey AnonymousBrother. Great to see you back!!! And hopefully coming back to the States will be a good move, too. I've heard you tell of your retirement planning talk in the past. Although you are right about the math supporting it, there are congregations where such talk will not be so welcome, of course. I imagine you raised a few eyebrows when you first talked about "100 years" more in this old system of things. That's going to be seen as "apostate" talk in some circles. But even this idea that the math can support "100 years" potentially produces exactly the problem we had in 1975. We all acknowledge that the end can come at any time, that's a given. But the "overlapping generation" math, even when using maximum ages of 120, and an "anointing" acknowledged as early as age 15, doesn't extend forever. (Could stretch to 2124.) But what happens if you were asked to give that same talk 50 years from now? The math would only support a maximum that's closer to 50 years. And what happens 90 years from now? The math would only support a number closer to 10 more years. That's the same thing that started in 1966, when the system was expected to go on for only 10 to 15 more years. Brother Splane once laughed about persons who might be sitting at the JW Broadcasting desk years down the road after he's gone, so I know he's thought of the possibility. According to the "Watchtower," as I'm sure you already know, Brother Russell started to lose faith in 1914 near the end of 1913 and early in the year 1914, and he also began speculating about how people might look back and laugh "100 years from now" on what he had been predicting. On the Long Island Rail Road a few years ago, I spoke to a "Harold Camping" guy who, along with his wife, had quit their jobs because it was May 20, and only ONE day before their BIG day. I told him about our religion and 1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, and 1925 and 1975, and how you have to consider what you will do if the end doesn't come as expected. I asked if he had thought about the kind of counseling members of his faith might need on May 22 if it doesn't happen. He spoke to me about how this new date was not wrong, and it would show a grave lack of faith to be considering the possibility that it wouldn't happen. I told him about Mt 24:36; Acts 1:7, and 1Th 5:1, and that Harold Camping was wrong about his "end date" on a previous occasion, and this man was completely prepared to handle those objections. He had a whole CD of information he was giving out that explained May 21, 2011 and had a good explanation for what went wrong on a previous prediction. I gave him my number and told him I'd be happy to talk to him on May 22. At least Russell had been able to imagine people laughing at him 100 years down the road (2014). And many brothers that I knew were not taking 1975 very seriously either. This included my father, who even got in trouble for kind of letting that slip in a circuit assembly talk. Although my mother was a great believer in 1975, my father had a serious talk with me about 1975, confiding some of his objections about the fact that I was quitting school early to begin regular pioneering. He was of the opinion that we can believe it and be excited about it, but that it could be an embarrassment and reflect badly on Jehovah and his organization if we didn't count the cost, and consider all the possibilities before making a decision that we might "kick ourselves" for, looking back.
  11. Do you have something specific in mind, perhaps to do with the overlapping generation, or something more general? Yes, the primary, specific driver of the problem is the fact that Brother Splane has already pointed out the fact that "GROUP 2" are getting "up there" in years, and he pointed to specific people as examples, showing how many of the prime examples from "GROUP 2" have already died. But while this is the driver there are, yes, I think there are a few more general items that combine and catalyze to provide the fuel for the transmission of this vehicle. One of those general items is a subtle attempt to "herd the cats" back into a more well-defined pen again. The idea of obeying what we might not understand has now been implicitly repeated at least three times recently in various contexts. In 1966, when the first problem started, we were as a group, even more united in thinking than we were in 1925 when some brothers sold their property and created financial issues for themselves. Not everyone, of course, but thousands were just as united in thought as in 1914 when people were pretty much counting down to the very month and day on their countdown cards to October 1, 1914. Many at that time sold property and even bought life insurance policies to provide for their "non-Russellite" relatives when they would be taken. The difference was that, around 1975, we weren't looking to specific day this time, but to a short time period of just months, not years, after 1975 when the 6th creative day would run out. (Of course, brothers were only willing to wait until about December 1975 before forgetting ) The 2018 Circuit Assembly talk on using social media is another example of "herding the cats."
  12. Thanks. But I was referring to the irony of responding to a point about "honesty" by creating additional, false, contradictory accounts -- alter-egos or "personalities," as it were. However, that is almost a perfect lead-in to what many of us saw happening not long after the 1970's came and went without the expectations fulfilled. I haven't studied the psychology of these things, so I can't speak to egos and ids as others might be able to. But I can agree that ego in the more common meaning of the word would help explain why so many people didn't want to admit having been wrong -- and were more than happy to adjust to the belief that this whole thing didn't really happen the way it did, and even if it did, it was only because a few brothers and sisters "ran ahead" of Jehovah's organization. Even people who lived through the time period, as I did my along with own large family, including an extended family of Witnesses, were very quick to dismiss the idea that anything was ever said in the way it was actually said. A Bible study could actually read directly from photocopies of 10 to 20 year old publications to my mother and father, and they would deny that these were actual photocopies. My grandmother, who collected almost every special talk from every traveling visitor and Society (branch) representative, had all the old talks from the period, and even a circuit assembly from 1970, I think, that was just full of amazingly unscriptural talks about what the 1970's were sure to bring. My father was usually the "Sound Servant" (speakers, mics, mixers, amps, wires) at any assembly we attended, whether circuit, district, international, special meeting, and we often attended at least 6 assemblies a year due to this fact. He kept a master copy of most of the assemblies and visits to the Norco Assembly Hall (the first one) and I would sometimes hear a talk again when he made copies of some of these talks on request. I heard the talks from this period more times than I care to remember. Still, I found this time period to be exciting and entertaining. And I still think that the expectations--even though they were not fulfilled at the time many of us expected--were sill faith-strengthening rather than devastating, as they were to some. I thought they made us imagine more clearly what our lives could be like in just a few years, and it made us imagine what they might be like if things didn't happen as many expected. I never had a problem with this "exercise" of our faith. It was like a kind of mental "fire drill." I think it helped many to clarify their relationship with Jehovah. I was baptized in 1967, when the 1966 book that started this post was required reading for baptism. and began to auxiliary pioneer with all the magazines and books related to this issue. I was scheduled to graduate in 1975 but quit high school to pioneer full-time in 1973, not even 16 years old. This was recommended and encouraged by elders, circuit overseers and district overseers. My father, an electrical engineer, put some strict conditions on me if I were to leave school, including the amount of money I had to earn and split with the family per month, how soon I had to be able to support myself and leave the house (when I was 18 years old). So my life was defined around 1975 in such a way that I was not as apt to forget what happened and why. But many persons who lived through the same period are now quick to deny that any of what happened actually happened, including things that happened to them personally. This is a disconcerting observation.
  13. I have not made it a secret that I think we are currently hurtling toward the same problem we created for ourselves in the 1970's. Therefore, I think it's very important that we don't forget this part of our history, as we can learn from it. I think we learn just as much from the defensive attempts, like the one on "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" linked above. In fact, I think the mistakes made back in the 1960's and early 1970's with respect to 1975 were very trivial compared to the lessons we can learn about our own egos, our pride and our honesty. Honesty is a form of faithfulness, and that's the only reason that this discussion might still be important to some of us today.
  14. LOL! Thanks for the information. Google returned this same general content that you posted in about 11 places, but after checking several of them, the ones I checked were missing the fifth paragraph and the last paragraph found on your post, which is why I assumed that you might have added both these paragraphs yourself. My apologies for the assumption that you had provided both of the extra paragraphs as your own comment. It looks to me now as if you only added the final sentence/paragraph: "There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world.... " The versions I found on YAHOO ANSWERS didn't have the missing paragraphs, but some had versions of the 10 extra paragraphs that I quoted from the longer version in the last post. These versions are each a bit different, but repeat many of the key paragraphs. Examples: https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111008133433AA7SDXA https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130824022819AAzCbIj https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100108180505AAc6yvr My goal was to make sure that if I responded, I was going to be able to separate the part you wrote from the part you quoted. So thanks for helping me out on that point. Apparently, as you have now pointed out, you got your version from a place that perfectly matches http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/09/did-jehovahs-witnesses-organization.html I had already glanced at that sight, but didn't inspect it because it was so quickly obvious that it was about 10 paragraphs too short to be the original answer. Anyway, the "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" blog also agrees that it came originally from YAHOO ANSWERS and from BAR-ANERGES. Not that these differences mattered much to the point being discussed, but I thought the author (BAR-ANERGES) wrote a very good thesis to discuss under this topic, because it is a fairly complete general answer that matches much of what I myself have said to people, in defense of 1975, and what my parents and many others typically say. So I thought it would be good to address all of it. (Along with anything you might have said in defense of it.)
  15. @DefenderOTT I know that you have already said (elsewhere) that you were not the originator of much of the post you offered above. Just to help clarify what you are saying, I noticed that the first four paragraphs are exactly what can be seen from a person who wrote this on YAHOO ANSWERS about 6 years ago. https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111008133433AA7SDXA Those are the 4 paragraphs that start and then end as follows: Then you apparently added your own words in the fifth paragraph above: Then it appears that you went back to quoting YAHOO ANSWERS, quoting the next three paragraphs, which started and ended, thus: Then apparently you added your own words again to finish up the discussion. I only went to the trouble of mentioning all this because I would like to respond at some point to those claims from YAHOO ANSWERS. For reference, here is the remaining part of the quote that was found on YAHOO ANSWERS. Although it's mostly wrong, it's also partly correct, and it's well written, and I expect that the points will come up from time to time:
  16. [I'm repeating here a post which is a response I just made to this claim about Armstrong, as it was moved to a new topic:] And, don't forget that, in 1956, Herbert W Armstrong supposedly stole the idea from the February 1, 1955 Watchtower, which put the end of 6,000 years within one year of 1976: *** w55 2/1 p. 95 Questions From Readers *** In 1953 in preparing the chart that appears in the book “New Heavens and a New Earth” a one-year error was brought to light. By the aid of the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the difference between the two numbers appearing at Genesis 7:6 and Genesis 7:11 became apparent, especially since there are two different Hebrew words here maintaining a distinct difference. At Genesis 7:6 the number 600 referring to Noah’s age means 600 full years, being what is generally termed a cardinal number. Whereas at Genesis 7:11 the number “600th,” an ordinal number, means 599 full years plus a portion of another year. . . . Inasmuch as previously our chronology considered Noah as 600 full years old when he entered the ark, instead of the actual 599 years and some months, as we now see, this has meant that the preflood dates must be shrunk by one year, this bringing Adam’s creation for the fall of 4025 B.C. Incidentally, Jesus, who became the second or “last Adam,” was born in the fall of the year around the first of October.—1 Cor. 15:45, NW. It is well to understand that all Bible chronology dates for events prior to 539 B.C. must be figured backward from the Absolute date of 539 B.C. In the sure date of 607 B.C. for the fall of Jerusalem we have an anchor for the chronology establishment of the important year of 1914. By an overwhelming number of physical facts occurring since 1914, this great turning-point year in man’s history, 1914, has been abundantly confirmed. According to Genesis 1:24-31 Adam was created during the last part of the sixth creative-day period of 7,000 years. Almost all independent chronologists assume incorrectly that, as soon as Adam was created, then began Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period of the creative week. Such then figure that from Adam’s creation, now thought to be the fall of 4025 B.C., why, six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began. . . . The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date. Of course, just a decade or so later, the Watchtower began minimizing the amount of time it would have taken for a perfect man to name all the animals if Jehovah brought them to him in a steady stream. The flaw in this reasoning was that angels would surely know that amount of time that Jehovah had kept a secret, so they would be aware of the day and the hour "when 6,000 years of Jehovah's present rest day come to an end." There is also evidence that Fred W. Franz, who wrote the article above, in 1955, began recalculating in the early 1970's and wanted to begin publishing October 1974 as the date for the end of the 6,000 years of human history. F.W.Franz, I am told, thought this would have strengthened the 1975 argument. But this was supposedly one of the few times when N.Knorr put his foot down and told him he had caused enough trouble with 1975, and that Knorr thought that this vacillation would actually weaken the faith that people put in the Watchtower. You probably already know this, but to your point, many Witnesses had to be counseled not to listen to Armstrong's radio program, especially in the late 1960's and early 1970's when many Witnesses claimed that he sounded exactly like the Watchtower.
  17. This brings up a topic that often comes up worldwide on the topic of having married or remarried incorrectly based on previous incorrect understanding of divorce and remarriage when the erroneous advice came from a previous religion or culture. The basic idea is to require no changes if the current legal state of a (non-polygamous) marriage is difficult to change. But difficulties in making legal changes after one become a Witness (after an improper divorce and remarriage) will not make the person guilty (or at least reprehensible) of on-going adultery as it would if the person made an improper choice as a Witness, but there are still levels of privilege in their congregational assignments to be considered and various requirements that are suggested for elders to look into. Also: *** w83 3/15 p. 31 Honor Godly Marriage! *** Those who acted on the basis of the knowledge they had at the time are not to be criticized. Nor would this affect the standing of a person who in the past believed that a mate’s perverted sexual conduct within marriage amounted to porneia and, hence, obtained a divorce and is now remarried. This cannot begin to cover, however, several cases of those (sisters, usually) who wanted to divorce a husband whom they discovered to have been homosexual. In the 1950's through part of the 1980's and beyond, marrying a sister was considered to be the best solution for Witnesses who are homosexual but are sure they will never act upon their sexual desires. Elders even recommended it. But then, even after infidelity on the part of the husband, and after the husband was usually disfellowshipped, the innocent sister could still never marry a Christian husband for the rest of her life, potentially. This is the primary type of case I referred to when I mentioned to tromboneck that there are still persons living for whom this injustice, even if later corrected, had affected their lives and is still affecting their lives. The problem actually lasted for decades, not months.
  18. I suspect that while Fred Franz was almost surely both the writer and the "approval checker" of the 1956 article, that he kept his distance from the Aid Book project. This does not mean that the information in the Aid Book , "Divorce" article (written likely at least one year before section A-E was released at an assembly in 1969) came directly from R.Franz. It was obviously copied very closely from the 1956 article. It was also true that R.Franz says that, when working on the Aid Book, he did not think he had the leeway to make changes to the current doctrines, but he also admits to not even having any thought or inclination to discuss changes to doctrines until after such questions were brought to the Governing Body around 1972 and after. And even though he was not a member of the Governing Body, but just a new guy in the Writing Department, I still kind of "blame" him for being given an opportunity to research through these topics again, and not to question them immediately and strongly. All of us are supposed to question everything, and he appears to have been given a wonderful opportunity from at least 1968 to 1971, and yet spent more of his "political capital" on the new elder arrangement. Returning to an elder arrangement like the one that Rutherford had opposed was a good thing, of course. But I think he was in a good position to push for many more changes and he evidently never considered these things closely. Of course, I have the same issue with the other brothers who just let things go along as tradition had said, but most of the others were not given an assignment with the leeway to just let the facts fall where the Scriptures lead. He says that this is what Fred Franz told him he should do, and there are a couple of blatant areas where he fell short in this assignment.
  19. I have never discussed with anyone how far back these errors actually went, but my father tells me that he knew of the problem when he was first a Congregation Servant in the 1960's and an elder since 1971. I have an uncle who would know, but I'm not comfortable asking about the topic with him, even though, as a former circuit overseer, he could speak to things that came up in entire circuits. My father just mentioned an article they used from the 1950's just months before I was born. I found it: *** w56 10/1 p. 588 par. 12, 20 Marriage Obligations and Divorce *** 12 By the laws of states and nations today divorce is granted on a number of grounds. Persons who have lost or killed their love for their marriage mate try to grab hold of whatever legal grounds they can to break the marriage tie, such as mental cruelty, laziness, refusal of conjugal rights, drunkenness, insanity, incurable disease, desertion or abandonment, barrenness, sodomy, bestiality, criminality, incompatibility, change of one’s religion, and so on, besides adultery. But are all these legal grounds Scripturally right, valid for the Christian? Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s Counselor for us. The Jewish Pharisees once tested him with this question: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every kind of grounds?” Jesus did not answer those questioners by referring to the Roman Caesar’s laws concerning divorce. He referred to the superior law of the Most High God and showed there is but one ground for divorce—adultery or moral unfaithfulness. Sodomy (or the unnatural intercourse of one male with another male as with a female), Lesbianism (or the homosexual relations between women), and bestiality (or the unnatural sexual relations by man or woman with an animal) are not Scriptural grounds for divorce. They are filthy, they are unclean, and God’s law to Israel condemned to death those committing such misdeeds, thus drastically putting these out of God’s congregation. But such acts are not adultery with the opposite sex, making the unclean person one flesh with another of the opposite sex. One would think that the term "adultery or moral unfaithfulness" would have covered the "AOS" ground, but notice that the paragraph explicitly mentioned that bestiality and sodomy were legal grounds but not Scriptural grounds. My father says that questions about this went to the Service Department and in the mid-1960's, at least, Harley Miller (Service Department Overseer) would actually get on the phone with the Congregation Servant and give the instructions that sodomy and bestiality were not the same as "adultery." I can't say how consistent this was over the years, but my father says it was already in effect in the mid-1960's. And here we also have one of the Watchtowers used in defense of it going back to the mid-1950's. As an aside, the same article from 1956 allowed for scriptural divorce for a wife's artificial insemination where she does not get permission from the impotent husband. This makes some sense, but the idea of "a virtual committing of adultery" should have provided the slippery slope to resolve these other issues. But even where they both agree, they would both be disfellowshipped. Note that there was a stronger tendency to rely on the Mosaic Law to develop some of these rules: *** w56 10/1 pp. 590-591 par. 18 Marriage Obligations and Divorce *** Where a man is impotent today the married couple in their desire for children might agree for the wife to receive the seed of another man by artificial insemination. Some law courts have already held that artificial insemination is adultery and that children produced by such means are illegitimate. The recent British Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce recommended as a ground for divorce the wife’s acceptance of artificial insemination by a donor of seed without her husband’s consent. Such a divorce would be Scriptural. But where the husband consented it would be grounds for the disfellowshiping of both man and wife. Why? Because it is a virtual committing of adultery, and both man and wife consented to the immoral act. The husband in effect gave her to another man to receive the seed of copulation, and the wife gave herself to a man not her husband to become the mother of a child by that other man with whom she was not one flesh. It is an adulterous course, and the fact that the husband adopts the child does not do away with the fact that he consented to the adulterous use of his wife.—Lev. 15:16-18, 32, 33; 19:20; Num. 5:12, 13, NW. Also, it's odd that even where the congregation would normally disfellowship, he or she can avoid the disfellowshipping if the innocent spouse has forgiven the other spouse: 33 When a congregation withholds an excommunication action because of the innocent mate’s prior forgiveness, this does not mean that the guilty mate may not and should not be deprived of any special responsibilities or service privileges in the congregation. Here, not excommunication, but the qualifications for special service positions in the congregation are involved.
  20. I think this statement needs clarification. Perhaps it's a good idea, after all, to look into some background of this doctrine issue. We could go back much further, but since you brought up the Aid Book --a portion on divorce that was published in 1969-- I think we should go back further into the 1960's to start. The following would have most likely come from Fred Rusk or Fred Franz, approved at the time, I think, by Adams. *** w63 2/1 p. 78 par. 22 Conduct “Worthy of the Good News” *** 22 But what can be done where the marriage is not a happy one, where there are disagreements over religion or over other matters? Are there any grounds upon which such a marriage might be ended by divorce, allowing the man or woman to marry another partner with whom they feel they could get along better? The Bible does not permit divorce just for any reason. While the law of the land may permit a divorce just because a husband and wife do not get along together and want to be free to marry somebody else, the Bible states only one reason allowing for a divorce that really brings the marriage to an end, namely, adultery. Jesus made this clear when he said: “I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication [that is, adultery], and marries another commits adultery.” (Matt. 19:9) By the act of adultery the unfaithful mate really becomes one flesh with someone other than his lawful marriage partner. Of course, the faithful partner may choose to forgive this act and continue to live with his mate, but if he chooses to divorce because of the adultery of his mate, then he will be free to marry some other person, since the marriage contract is thus Scripturally as well as legally broken. In view of the need for understanding and love to make a marriage last, the dedicated Christian heeds the wise counsel of the Scriptures to marry “only in the Lord,” that is, to marry one who is, like him, a dedicated Christian.—1 Cor. 7:39. A couple things to notice here. One point is nuanced but made clearer in other publications: that only the innocent party could choose to get the divorce, otherwise the divorce would not free the innocent mate to remarry. That's another story. Another point is that the "only one reason" allowing for divorce was tied in 1963 to 'becoming one flesh' with the other person -- not just any kind of "porneia" but only "straight" adultery. But notice that it is the type of thing that became bound up in the types of rulings that the Governing Body began to spend more and more of their time on. Per comments referring to the period 1971-1972 here is what R.Franz says, about the early meetings of the GB: At times the entire meeting lasted but a few minutes; one that I recall lasted only seven minutes (including the opening prayer). Then from time to time President Knorr would bring some “problem correspondence” involving questions as to certain conduct by individual Witnesses, and the Body was to decide what policy should be adopted regarding these, whether the particular conduct called for disfellowshiping, some lesser discipline, or no action at all. Those early meetings, he says, sometimes consisted only of reading a list of names of branch appointments from places like Suriname, Sri Lanka, or Zambia that no one usually recognized, and then the GB would vote on the appointments. But now, at least by 1972, the topics were beginning to include the following issues, R.Franz says: As weeks went along discussions were held on such subjects as whether a father qualifies as an elder if he allows a son or daughter to marry when only eighteen years of age; whether one qualifies as an elder if he approves of his son or daughter taking higher education; [Higher education was, and to some extent still is, generally frowned upon as conducive to loss of faith and as providing an atmosphere likely to contribute to immorality.] whether one qualifies as an elder if he does shift work and sometimes (while on night shift) misses congregational meetings; whether elders can accept circumstantial evidence of adultery, or the testimony of a wife that her husband confessed adultery to her, and whether this is sufficient to allow for Scriptural divorce and remarriage; whether a divorce is Scripturally acceptable if, even where adultery has been committed, the one obtaining the divorce is the guilty mate rather than the innocent mate; [At that time the ruling was that only if the innocent mate got the divorce was it Scripturally valid.] what validity a divorce has when obtained on grounds other than adultery if, after the divorce is granted, evidence of pre-divorce adultery comes to light; what the situation is if such a divorce is obtained and there is post-divorce adultery; whether an innocent mate’s having sex relations with an adulterous mate (subsequent to learning of the adultery) cancels out the right to divorce that mate and be free to remarry; whether it is proper for a Witness to pay a fine if that fine is imposed because of an infraction of law resulting from his witnessing activity or because of some stand he had taken in order to adhere to Witness beliefs; whether it is proper to send food or other assistance to persons by means of the Red Cross (the main issue here being that the cross is a religious symbol, and so the Red Cross organization might be quasi-religious . . . ). . . . The effect of our decisions was considerable in its impact on the lives of others. In matters of divorce, for example, the congregation elders serve as a sort of religious court and if they are not satisfied as to the validity of a divorce action, the individual who goes through with such a divorce and then later remarries becomes subject to disfellowshiping. I will break this up into smaller pieces so as to not create multi-page posts.
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