JW Insider

18 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

*** w14 10/1 p. 13 " When Did God’s Kingdom Begin Ruling?—Part 1 ***
In his prophecy concerning the last days, Jesus said: “Jerusalem [which represented God’s rulership] will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) So the interruption of God’s rulership was still in effect in Jesus’ time and would continue until the last days."

The reason this doesn't make sense to all readers of Luke 21:24 is that Jesus clearly says Jerusalem WILL BE TRAMPLED on. Therefore it was future, and not even in effect yet during Jesus' time on earth. Also Luke 21:24 is referenced in Revelation 11:2,3 and it says nothing there about 7 times, only 3.5 times.

22 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

"(Daniel 12:9) Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end."

This goes to the same question that Anna just asked about the "last days." Daniel's words were sealed up until the time of the end. Revelation quotes quite a bit from Daniel, but says it's now time that the words of the scroll are opened. As you have shown before, much of Revelation is parallel to Daniel, but this is a consistent exception: It is now time to open and unseal the sealed scrolls.

(Revelation 5:1-5) . . .And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or underneath the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. 4 I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. 5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

Could it be said that the last days started in 33 C.E?

Yes. Easily. Note these instances of the expression in the NWT:

(Acts 2:14-17) 14 But Peter stood up with the Eleven and spoke to them in a loud voice: “Men of Ju·deʹa and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to you and listen carefully to my words. 15 These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,

Now that 33 had arrived, this expression is first used there in Acts. Then Paul tells Timothy that the reason he is seeing such problems in the congregation is because they are in the "last days."

(2 Timothy 3:1-14) . . .But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, . . . 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. 9 Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, . . .13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, . . .

Also, Peter explains why people in that time period are ridiculing the delay of the parousia:

(2 Peter 3:3-8) 3 First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.” 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. 8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

Jude says the same thing using the term "last times" to explain why people are ridiculing during the time Jude is writing. The idea, in fact, covers both the points made in 2 Peter and the point of 2 Timothy:

(Jude 17-21) 17 As for you, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 how they used to say to you: “In the last time there will be ridiculers, following their own desires for ungodly things.” 19 These are the ones who cause divisions, animalistic men, not having spirituality. 20 But you, beloved ones, build yourselves up on your most holy faith, and pray with holy spirit, 21 in order to keep yourselves in God’s love, while you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view.

The expression "last days" is also used here, in Hebrews, but the NWT chose in this place not to translate it the same way:

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

The NIV is more accurate here:

• In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, ² but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

In the previous post I mentioned the big rush that Russell got behind to finance Barbour's "Three Worlds." It might be confusing to some that they thought the end of the time of trouble would occur in 1914. (Later, in 1904 this was changed to the start of a time of trouble, lasting until about 1915, or the end of 1915.)

If they thought that the end would be in 1914, how could they think of the rapture in 1878? It's because they thought that there was a higher heavenly calling in 1878 for people like Russell and Barbour and other "wise virgins" who recognized that Barbour was the one whom Jesus had used to call out the "midnight cry" beginning right around 1859 -- halfway between Miller's 1844 and the "dawn" or the "morning" in 1874. Russell later recognized that the word for "midnight" in Greek was not an exact time but a range of time, and pretty much removed Barbour from the equation as God's mouthpiece.

Those of the higher calling would go to heaven, called to the marriage of the Lamb for the 144,000, while other Christians would stay on earth for as long as they lived, at least up to 1914, and be changed when they died. This is how the "great crowd" would get to heaven. After all the Christians were in heaven, the millennium activity would be mostly about Christians working from heaven to transform the non-Christians who would inherit the earth.

Another interesting piece of information is that the chart that folds out at the beginning of "Three Worlds" uses 606 BCE, when Nebuchadnezzar received universal domination. This is actually much closer to the Bible's timetable, because it does not depend on when Babylon finally destroyed Jerusalem, 20 years into that domination, after several deportations of Jews. Note the image which can also be found here:

https://archive.org/stream/N.H.BarbourThreeWorldsAndHarvestOfThisWorld.ABriefReviewOfThe/Barbour_threeWorlds_harvestOfThisWorld_1877#page/n3/mode/2up

33 minutes ago, Anna said:

So I wonder, could we say Jesus became an uncrowned king in 33 CE and a crowned king in 1914? The definition of “uncrowned”  being :“having royal rank or power without occupying the royal office”. Wouldn't this be scripturally compatible?

You could say it, but why? What's the reason we don't want to say Jesus was ruling as king in 33? We don't think he was occupying the royal office? Then why does Paul call him "King of Kings"? A crown is just another way of describing that he is king. One can also say he is ruling at God's right hand. There may be no such thing as a physical crown in heaven, or probably even our human concepts of "left" and "right." The Bible doesn't make a distinction about a crowned and an uncrowned king, so why should we?

Also, when the Watch Tower publications first spoke about Jesus not having the royal office until 1878 (which later become 1914) it was because he had not shown his power in any physical way yet. But now, since he had been physically present since 1874 he was going to make a physical mark on the world by removing humans in 1878 and taking them to heaven, a "harvest" if you will. Russell was sure enough of this to sell his belongings so as to distribute as many of Barbour's pamphlets as possible in time for the 1878 "rapture." ("Three Worlds, Harvest of This World"). The same idea became true of 1881, then 1910, then 1914, then 1918, then 1920, then 1925. Jesus was about to prove that he was MORE than just a king of his congregation.

Now, of course, nothing happened with any of these expectations except disappointment. The Watchtower's later claim in 1914 that the "world had ended" (but only those with spiritual discernment could see it) was based on all those prior expectations that nearly all earthly institutions would physically collapse within months of 1914. But the nations were not smashed with an iron rod. No major institutions collapsed. If anything many of them became more powerful than they were prior to 1914. It's as if all the talk about an invisible kingship became the new replacement for the expectations of a visible parousia in 1874 that Barbour had spoken about. It was only after the failure that Barbour and some of his contributors scrambled to make it an invisible parousia. Similarly, it was only after the failure of all the expectations of 1914 that Russell and some of his contributors made it an invisible end of the nations. Prior to that it was a physical end of the nations. (End of the times of the Gentile nations.)

To me, it's a little bit like we are participating in a cover-up.

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

There is probably a better way to answer this question. Jesus is called "King" about 500 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Each time Jesus was referred to as "Christ, he was being called "The Messiah." The Messiah was a King. This is why Psalm 110:1 was so important to Christians, because the question to ask was, why would a King [David] call this person "Lord." It was because that particular "Lord" was to be seated on a throne at God's right hand. If David was a king then surely this particular "Lord" would be an even higher king.

What did Messiah (Christ) mean to the early Christians? We know by looking at the Bible verses that were considered Messianic:

(Isaiah 9:6, 7) . . .For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.  7 To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

This is exactly what Peter is saying when he refers to the relationship between David and Jesus Christ at Pentecost.

(Acts 2:29-36) 29 “Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

Note that when David in the role of prophet said that his Lord would be seated at God's right hand until all enemies were defeated, he was referring to the resurrection of Christ to David's throne. The logic of this passage should not escape anyone. It says that when David spoke of "the lord of a king" being seated on David's throne, he was prophesying about the resurrection of the Messiah. Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God has made Jesus this Lord and Messiah. Messiah is the final Davidic King, and he has now been made that King. The word King is already bound up in the word "Messiah."

This was probably more obvious to the original Jewish Christians as the Bible writers of the gospels indicate:

• (Matthew 2:2-6) . . . saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.” 3 At hearing this, King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 They said to him: “In Bethʹle·hem of Ju·deʹa, . . .  for out of you will come a governing one, who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
• (Mark 15:32) 32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, so that we may see and believe.” . . .
• (Luke 1:31-33) . . .. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”
• (Luke 1:67-71) . . .: 68 “Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he has spoken through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us;
• (Luke 2:11) 11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
• (Luke 19:36-38) 36 As he moved along, they were spreading their outer garments on the road. 37 As soon as he got near the road down the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and to praise God with a loud voice because of all the powerful works they had seen, 38 saying: “Blessed is the one coming as the King in Jehovah’s name!. . .
• (Luke 23:35) . . .“Others he saved; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One.. . .
• (John 1:41-49) 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him: “We have found the Mes·siʹah” (which means, when translated, “Christ”), . . . 45 Philip found Na·thanʹa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote: Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazʹa·reth.” . . . 49 Na·thanʹa·el responded: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”
• (John 19:21, 22) . . .However, the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate: “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that he said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered: “What I have written, I have written.”
• (Acts 13:16-47) 16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand, he said: “Men, Israelites and you others who fear God, listen. 17 The God of this people Israel chose our forefathers, . . . 21 But afterward they demanded a king, and God gave them Saul . . . After removing him, he raised up for them David as king, . . . 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus. . . . 27 For the inhabitants of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize this one, but . . .  they demanded of Pilate to have him executed. . . . 30 But God raised him up from the dead, . . .  32 “So we are declaring to you the good news about the promise made to the forefathers. 33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’

And although it should not have been necessary, because it is already implied, notice the fuller context of what was written in the second psalm:

• (Psalm 2:6, 7)  6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.

(In fact it was an expression about kingship, also used of David and Solomon.)

The point is that the Bible does not make a big difference about whether we technically call Jesus only a "crown-prince" while he is "king-designate." Those details are not important even if technically true. In effect, he was "born" King of the Jews. He could be declared King by anyone who recognized him as King, even if this was before the complete fulfillment. It was for that purpose that he came into the world. Because Jehovah's purpose is as good as accomplished from the founding of the world, it doesn't matter that Jesus is called King prior to his being raised up and put at the right hand of the throne of Majesty. Technically he was not the Messiah either until his anointing in 29 C.E. yet Simeon says this:

(Luke 2:25, 26) . . .a man in Jerusalem named Simʹe·on, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for Israel’s consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26 Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ of Jehovah.

The connection between the word Messiah (Christ) and a King was also quite strong in the Jewish literature that was written between the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures. I won't quote them here, but it adds to the background of the word as understood by the writers and readers of the Greek Scriptures.

1 hour ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

And that’s why there is a BIG difference when one speculates between Jesus as King in 33ce, think literally as the people wanted, spiritual kingdom, as a work in progress, 1914 enthronement as a literal spiritual king in a heavenly (spiritual) kingdom

For 33 CE we don't have to speculate. For 1914 we do have to speculate.

The way you have explained it would mean that Jesus was not a literal king to Paul, but only a spiritual king, a work in progress. Yet, you say he was a literal king to Charles T Russell, and Joseph F Rutherford. Yet, every explanation in the Watchtower publications you quoted shows that Jesus' primary activity since 1914 has been the building up of a congregation since about 1919. But isn't that what Jesus was doing in 33 CE? The same Watchtower admits that Jesus began ruling as king over the congregation in 33 CE. Of course, everyone should agree that he was ruler over the congregation, too, but that doesn't account for why Paul would also say he had just been given a position of power and authority over every king on the earth, and even every power and authority in heaven.

You will also notice that no one will even touch the fact that Jesus is called King of Kings by Paul in Timothy.

This is the real problem with all this speculation that Jesus didn't become king until 1914. It requires that we ignore clear scriptures.

Just to give an example of what I mean, watch what will happen if I ask the following questions:

• Why did Paul call Jesus "the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords" in 1 Timothy 6:15?
• Why did John call Jesus “the Ruler of the kings of the earth” in Revelation 1:5?
• Why did Luke not make a correction about a supposed false allegation when Jews had Christians dragged in front of rulers to say: "All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus." in Acts 17:7?

44 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

On 6/28/2017 at 7:22 AM, JW Insider said:

Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected.

I have a couple of questions related to this if you don't mind.

1. Are you saying that the war between Michael and Satan and the casting out of Satan and his angels preceded the event referred to at Rev.12:10,  and by this reckoning took place earlier than "the year when Jesus died and was resurrected"?

2. What do you think  "the short period of time" mentioned at Rev 12:12 refers to?

For the answer to #1, just compare the scripture with all other scriptures that touch on this same subject:

(Revelation 12:7-12) 7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Satan is cast out in verse 9 and "now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom" is said to have happened in verse 10. So that would be the natural order if they are separated by time. But if there is set of events that covers both at once, then that is quite possible, too. In that case we don't have to worry too much about the time. (And we wouldn't have to defend the idea that the Watchtower appears to get it backwards, here, saying that Jesus is crowned as king, and then the first order of business is to battle with Satan.)

I think a good answer is found here:

(John 12:29-33) . . .” 30 Jesus answered: “This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.” 33 This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.

Jesus' rise is Satan's fall, here. The ruler of the world, the Devil, was battled and finally conquered and defeated through the ministry and death of Jesus, who was "made to be sin for us" and who opened the way for sons of light to overpower the darkness. And Satan's anger is evident by the fact that we must endure difficulties as Christian ministers, and we must conquer.

(John 12:35, 36) . . .“The light will be among you a little while longer. Walk while you still have the light, so that darkness does not overpower you; whoever walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, exercise faith in the light, so that you may become sons of light.”. . .

(2 Corinthians 5:21-7:1) 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. . . . 2 For he says: “In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.” Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation. . . .4 but in every way we recommend ourselves as God’s ministers, by the endurance of much, by tribulations, by times of need, by difficulties, 5 by beatings, by imprisonments, by riots, by hard work, by sleepless nights, by times without food; . . . as dying and yet look! we live, as punished and yet not handed over to death, . . . For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? . . . 7 Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The idea of Satan being cast out of heaven is an expression meaning he is cast down, loses his power over those he wishes to ensnare. And this is why Revelation relates it to the announcement of salvation. It's the same topic Hebrews speaks about here:

(Hebrews 2:14, 15) . . .that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

Satan is still the "ruler" of the world, and is therefore still, in effect, in the "heavenly places." That has been just as true since 1914 as it was since 33. But he has been brought to nothing for those who conquer, those who find salvation in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 5:8-10) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world. 10 But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training.. . .

This was just as true in the first century as in the twentieth and today. Nothing notable in this regard changed in 1914.

(1 John 3:8) 8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

Notice that it had already happened, and when the first glimpse of the Devil's works being broken up were seen, Jesus could say:

(Luke 10:18-20) . . .“I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are made subject to you, but rejoice because your names have been written in the heavens.”

As far as the short period of time goes. This has been true for all of us ever since the last days began. (Hebrews 1:1,2) We have a relatively short lifespan, and it is reserved for all men to die. And in the overall scheme of Satan's lifetime, who may have lived for billions of years, he must know his fate is sealed and his time is short. None of us (since the warning in 33 C.E.) have known just when the entire system would be cut short for the "second time that he [Christ] appears." But in either case whether death or through his appearance, it is a short time before each of us receives a judgment.

(Hebrews 9:26-28) . . .But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.

Obviously, this is not the ONLY way to look at these things. But you asked what I thought.

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown?

That's how I understand it too. Jesus had not yet been crowned because he had not suffered death and been seated at the right hand of God.

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

(Hebrews 2:9) . . .But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

So it would be some time after suffering death, and his resurrection. When he sits at God's right hand he is at the right hand of the "throne of Majesty." He is therefore "ruling as king" with Jehovah.

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

We also know this because Paul changes the word "sit at my right hand" to "rule as king." So Paul thinks of them as equivalent.

(1 Corinthians 15:25-27) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.”. . .

Also, in Hebrews it is a given that Jesus, from Judah, would be a king, after the manner of Melchizedek:

(Hebrews 7:1, 2) 7 For this Mel·chizʹe·dek, king of Saʹlem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”

So now that Jesus is part of the enthronement setup at God's right hand, he is also, therefore, ruling as king.

Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians, above, that Jesus would go on conquering in the midst of his enemies up until the last enemy is conquered, we also have an image in Revelation like this:

(Revelation 6:1, 2) 6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.

This mention of his crown in Revelation 6 is given a lead-up in the entire 5th chapter, which is a bit long to quote completely, but notice the highlighted verses:

5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” . . .  5 But one of the elders said to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne . . . a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, . . . . . . . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne . . . 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power . . . .”
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

If the elders fell down and worshipped the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing in the midst of the throne, then Jesus, at this point must have a position of kingship granted by Jehovah. We can find out what that time was by going back to Paul.

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet . . .

(Philippians 2:8-11) . . .to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Note that Philippians, here, reads like a commentary of Revelation 5. It explains why (his sacrificial death) even those in heaven now openly "bend the knee" to Jesus to the glory of God.

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Then, the dispensation of time prophecy is erred by marking Jesus king in 33CE. That would nullify all the efforts Jesus made NOT to be made king by the mass crowd as suggested in John 6:15 and would misalign, what Jesus meant in John 18:36. Once again a none sustainable argument, until the fulfillment in 1914.

We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E. John 6:15 does not contradict the rest of the Bible at all.  As you know, John 6:15 says the following, along with a bit of context:

(John 6:12-17) 12 But when they had eaten their fill, he said to his disciples: “Gather together the fragments left over, so that nothing is wasted.” 13 So they gathered them together and filled 12 baskets with fragments left over by those who had eaten from the five barley loaves. 14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.” 15 Then Jesus, knowing that they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again to the mountain all alone. 16 When evening fell, his disciples went down to the sea, 17 and boarding a boat, they set out across the sea for Ca·perʹna·um. By now it had grown dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them.

This particular crowd may have wanted to make him king based on the fact that he could provide earthly things, such as food, and as you already pointed out, we know that Jesus would later say, in John 18:

(John 18:36, 37) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, . . .

Also, notice that Jesus did not condemn a different crowd who would also declare him king, and Jesus even helped set up the scenario:

(Matthew 21:1-9) 21 When they got close to Jerusalem and arrived at Bethʹpha·ge on the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them: “Go into the village that is within sight, and you will at once find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If someone says anything to you, you must say, ‘The Lord needs them.’ At that he will immediately send them.” 4 This actually took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet, who said: 5 “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you, mild-tempered and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’” 6 So the disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them. 7 They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road, while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9 Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: “Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!”

This is a low-cost version of what the people of that time period termed a "PAROUSIA." As the New World Translation Appendix stated:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

This type of royal visitation (parousia) often took the form of a parade with joyous crowds and fanfare. Of course, to a disobedient province, such a visitation (parousia) could also include a display of judgment against enemies of the state.

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Some of Russell’s followers leaned toward Adventism, while Russell himself didn’t. An early problem of a nondenominational church that voted their Elders in, and was independent of Russell’s primary church the people's pulpit. The same can be said about publications like the Bible Examiner.

This is mostly true. Russell used the name Watch Tower for the primary corporation for nearly 40 years, incorporated officially for more than 30 of those years. The People's Pulpit, of course, was just an alternative name for the purpose of owning property in New York that the Pennsylvania corporation hadn't been set up for. (It could have been expanded for that purpose, but Russell had personal reasons to move all money out of Pennsylvania during his divorce.) But Russell only used that alternative name for 7 years before he died. Later it was changed from People's Pulpit [of New York] to "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society [of New York]"

On 6/28/2017 at 2:58 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

While Storrs and others continued a path inconsistent with that of Russell, Russell relied only on what Scripture showed. So, once again, 1914 is scripturally sound through Russell’s reasoning,

Russell continued to rely on a chronological system that promoted each of the following dates as specially marked in prophecy or predicted in prophecy. Almost all of them were still distinctly considered Biblically significant, and still being published "in print" in the publications until at least a decade after Russell died.

• 1776
• 1780
• 1798
• 1799
• 1800
• 1829
• 1833
• 1840
• 1844
• 1846
• c.1859
• 1872
• 1873
• 1874
• 1875
• 1876
• 1878
• 1879
• 1881
• 1910
• c.1911
• 1912
• 1914
• 1915
• 1918 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death)
• 1920 (date predicted in 1917, based on Russell's writings, 8.5 months after his death)

So, tell me again, how Russell relied only on what the Scripture showed that made the 1914 date "scripturally sound."

After about 1995, I have had no first-hand knowledge about their travel arrangements. Up until then, there was a lot of first-class travel in the 1970s through the mid-1990s, but it was always said to be "gifted" and did not come through the general donations to the worldwide work. Also, it depended completely on where they were going, and if a congregation or wealthy brother sponsored the travel. There were some supposed scandals in the mid 1990's too of GB taking expensive "luxury" vacations, but these were "gifted."

I traveled with Brother Schroeder to Europe and he flew first-class while I took Freddy Laker to London for $99. But I also took first-class trains and hovercraft between many destinations: London-Paris-Madrid-Barcelona-Rome-Corfu-Athens-Milan-Innsbruck-Berne-Wiesbaden-Hamburg and Brother Schroeder almost always had a small plane flight or even a car arranged between some of these same locations. Not a private plane, although this happens in Australia and Alaska and parts of Africa in places where private planes (not private jets) are more practical than cars.

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Lot's of info to go through but I couldn't overlook this one. What would you say the particular "horn" making war with the "holy ones" represents?

This could get really fun, and cover a lot of different topics, and you know that I probably couldn't stop myself from joining in.  But another "thread" would be better. I'm really not anxious to share too many ideas on Daniel and Revelation, even though I think there are several places where simpler and clearer understandings are possible. But I'm not trying to give the impression that I "know" anything more than you or anyone else on all these matters. And I think I've probably caused enough confusion or commotion in the way I brought up 1914 this time.

29 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

It coincides with Daniel 7:13,14,

As an aside, take note of which kingdom this fourth beast must refer to.

(Daniel 7:14-22) 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed. 15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me because the visions of my head frightened me. 16 I went near to one of those who were standing there to ask him about the true meaning of this. So he replied and made known to me the interpretation of these things. 17 “‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’ 19 “Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet; 20 and about the ten horns on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly and whose appearance was bigger than that of the others. 21 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. 23 "This is what he said: 'As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth...'"

Our current understanding is that this fourth beast must be Rome, and yet, during the time of this beast was also the time when Jesus was given the kingdom.

3 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

But the Revelation was given by God to Jesus then to John in the last decade of the first century after Jesus' ascension and He said the things were to take place shortly (2Pet 3:8); not about things that were already in effect like Jesus sitting at God's right hand which occurred in 33CE. 

But Revelation also includes revelations about things that have already occurred.

Note that the expressions about Jesus' power and salvation and authority and kingdom are part of the introduction to Revelation, before any vision has been recorded:

(Revelation 1:5, 6) May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

This is also about past events which had already made those who conquered to be a kingdom. Jesus had already set them free from sins (salvation) by his own blood. He was already the firstborn from the dead, the King of Kings, the Faithful Witness. He is called the Lamb as a reference to this past event. Jesus was already called King of Kings in this introduction.

Much of what John sees is not just things to come in the future, but also "things that are" -- things already true.

(Revelation 1:19) 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these.

This is a feature of "revelation" in the Bible, where sometimes what is revealed is what has already happened or is currently happening. Note that this is true when the "curtain" is peeled back at the start of the book of Job. It's even part of the revelation explained by Micaiah mentioned earlier. Granted that the overall goal of Revelation is all about how these things that are true will culminate in the future for a final fulfillment, but this does not discount all the verses that show that salvation, kingdom, power and authority were already given to Jesus at his resurrection and his sitting at God's right hand. The idea that Revelation is really about Jehovah's control of the entire "sweeping history of Christianity" past, present and future, is also implied in names like "the first and the last" and above, "the One who is, and who was, and who is coming."

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Is there no one here who can state succinctly why they feel that the announcement of Rev.12:10 did not take place in 1914CE? 

Just in case anyone might not have been familiar with some of the verses mentioned in the bullet point list at the beginning of this discussion, we could spell out a few and add some more:

AUTHORITY

(Matthew 28:18) 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

(Ephesians 1:19-21) 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

(Colossians 1:11-16) 11 and may you be strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may endure fully with patience and joy, 12 as you thank the Father, who made you qualify to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light. 13 He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . . .

POWER

(Matthew 26:64) . . .“You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

(Mark 9:1-7) . . .“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; 3 his outer garments began to glisten, becoming far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth could whiten them. 4 Also, E·liʹjah with Moses appeared to them, and they were conversing with Jesus. 5 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Rabbi, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” 6 In fact, he did not know how to react, for they were quite fearful. 7 And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: “This is my Son, the beloved. Listen to him.”

(Romans 1:3, 4) 3 concerning his Son, who came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh, 4 but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord.

(Romans 1:16) 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(1 Corinthians 1:24) 24 However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

(Ephesians 1:19-21) [already listed under authority]  It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

(Colossians 1:11-16) [already listed under authority] 11 and may you be strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may endure fully with patience and joy, . . .13 He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. . . .

(Hebrews 1:3) 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(2 Peter 1:16-18) . . .we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard coming from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain.

KINGDOM

The topic of Kingdom was already included in another topic a few months ago, listing at least a dozen scriptures. But I will include a couple here:

(Matthew 27:11) 11 Jesus now stood before the governor, and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say it.”

(1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He [Jesus] is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5) . . .Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

(1 Corinthians 15:24, 25) 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Is there no one here who can state succinctly why they feel that the announcement of Rev.12:10 did not take place in 1914CE? 

I cannot state anything succinctly. But I can start out with a shorter answer and then expand on it later with a longer one.

I feel the announcement in Revelation 12:10 did not take place in 1914 because the Bible is VERY clear that this was not the year that the salvation and the power and kingdom of our God the authority of his Christ came to pass.

What was the occasion and event through which salvation came to pass? Clearly, at the latest, it was the year when Jesus died and was resurrected. So this chapter of Revelation is apparently referring to the time when the announcement about salvation came to pass. When was it? One might claim that it was when Jesus' birth was announced and it could therefore be announced that Jesus (meaning Jehovah is Salvation) would be bringing salvation to Israel and to the world. Was Satan angry at Jesus' birth? [Yes] Did Jesus come through the nation of Israel as God's woman [Yes], whose symbols were the moon and stars? [Yes]

Whether it was at his birth, the announcement through John, his ministry or through his death, there is Biblical evidence that the time period belongs here. Remember that the book of Revelation is the most malleable of all books and has been made to mean almost anything anyone would like to make from it. (Even our most recent book on Revelation is already out of date, and you could probably be disfellowshipped if you insisted on teaching obsolete portions of the 1963 Babylon Book, and you could scarcely find even one full page that's still considered to be true in the Revelation commentary (The Finished Mystery) that was considered to be truth back in 1917.)

So the best places to start understanding Revelation are going to be in the parts of the Bible that are outside of Revelation. So we start with the topic of salvation, because the announcement said that salvation came to pass at the same time as the authority and power and kingdom.

SALVATION

(Luke 19:9-11) 9 At this Jesus said to him: “Today salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.” 11 While they were listening to these things, he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly.

(Luke 3:4-6) . . .“A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight. 5 Every valley must be filled up, and every mountain and hill leveled; the crooked ways must become straight, and the rough ways smooth; 6 and all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

(Luke 2:30-34) 30 because my eyes have seen your means of salvation 31 that you have prepared in the sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.” 33 And the child’s father and mother continued wondering at the things being spoken about him. 34 Also, Simʹe·on blessed them and said to Mary, the child’s mother: “Look! This child is appointed for the falling and the rising again of many in Israel . . .

(Luke 1:68-80) . . .“Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he has spoken through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us; . . . 79 to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.” 80 And the young child grew up and became strong in spirit, and he continued in the desert until the day he showed himself openly to Israel.

(Acts 4:12) 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

(Acts 28:27, 28) . . .’ 28 So let it be known to you that this salvation from God has been sent out to the nations; . . .

(Romans 1:16) 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

(2 Corinthians 6:2) 2 For he says: “In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.” Look! Now is the especially acceptable time. Look! Now is the day of salvation.

(2 Timothy 2:10-12) 10 For this reason I go on enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is through Christ Jesus, along with everlasting glory. 11 This saying is trustworthy: Certainly if we died together, we will also live together; 12 if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings;. . .

(1 Peter 1:10, 11) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow.

For the most part the announcement of salvation was the announcement of the "good news" (the "good announcement"). We know that by the time Paul wrote 2 Corinthians, he could announce that "Now is the day of salvation."

It would be superfluous to say that another time would come up prior to the judgment and resurrection that somehow superseded this good news about salvation through Christ from the first century. In fact, it could even be said to contradict what Paul and others were saying. So I see no reason to claim that the announcement of Paul and Jesus had only a limited scope, or wasn't really true when they said it, but had to wait until some future date. Also, it would seem very presumptuous and haughty to negate the direct words of the Bible just so that it could be applied to a time when no one even noticed that Jesus had begun a presence, or had begun reigning.

POWER, AUTHORITY AND KINGDOM

And then we have all the Bible evidence that Jesus began reigning at the time when he began ruling as king -- which Paul says was when he sat down at the right hand of God.

And then we also have all the Bible evidence that Jesus was given all power and authority in the same year he died after his resurrection and his being seated at the right hand of God.

All this gives the impression that, in order to support 1914, we have been willing to contradict all the scriptures outside of Revelation just so that we can make a claim that fits a theory about a verse inside of Revelation.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

so if 607 BCE is such a clunker, how did it get to be a foundation in the first place?

That's just it. It wasn't a foundation in the first place. The "foundation in the first place" was something called "Israel's Double" based on a now debunked idea that Israel would get a "double" amount of time, resulting in a parallel dispensation between Israel and Christianity, the Old and the New. Many Second Adventists scrambled quickly for new explanations after William Miller's spectacular failure. Miller had predicted Christ's Return in 1844, based mostly on the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14, coupled with the idea that the 7th Millennium had just dawned (6,000 years from Adam).

One of several popular updates to Miller's chronology, was to fix the start of the Millennium to 1872. Then "Israel's Double" counting from the death of Jacob (a.k.a. "Israel") to the death of Jesus in 33 C.E. gave the length of Israel's first dispensation (era/age). That was calculated to be 1,845 years. Adding 1,845 years to the year 33 C.E. showed that the second dispensation would end in 1878. 1845+33=1878.

But that was when Jesus had become King in 33 C.E. and therefore King again in 1878. Jesus became "present" as the Christ back in 29/30 C.E. and therefore also in 1874. But the preaching to Israel could last until 70 C.E. which was a full 40 years from the time Jesus started preaching after his baptism. Therefore, this was one of the reasons to believe in a 40 year "harvest" that would last from 1874 to 1914 (as it did from 30 to 70).

Therefore the October 1889 Watch Tower, and Volume II of Millennial Dawn (also in 1889), and several other issues of Zion's Watch Tower repeatedly spoke of "Israel's Double" especially since that time.

With this all in mind, recall our statements and the Scripture testimonies on the subject of Israel's double;--that the first part, from the beginning of the nation at the death of Jacob to the rejection of the nation at the death of Christ, was a period of 1845 years of waiting for the promised kingdom, during which they had divine favor and supervision (discipline, etc.); and that when they then rejected and crucified the Redeemer, they were sentenced to a "double" or repetition of their already long period of waiting --during which God would show them no favor, manifest no interest in them. Every Jew of intelligence and piety is able to recognize the fulfilment of these predictions of the prophets.--Zech. 9:12;Jer. 16:18; Isa. 40:2.

And note the fact so pointedly marked --that where their double of waiting for the Kingdom expired, the kingdom did come in 1878; which we think MILLENNIAL DAWN, Vol. II., clearly proves from the Scriptures.

And this must have been pretty convincing because the February 1890 Watch Tower prints approving letters about how persons have been responding to these latest publications. (Dawn content was also included as a replacement for the content of some recent Watch Tower issues in 1889.)  One person responded by trying to sell off everything and giving what was left over that he could offer to the Watch Tower:

DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:--After reading Dawn, Vol. II., the chapters on "The Times of the Gentiles," "The Jubilee Cycles," Israel's Double and the Time Chronology, I became convinced that we are indeed in the time of the harvest, while the chapter on the manner of our Lord's second coming and the harmony of present indications leaves no room for even a doubt. Then in place of marrying and settling down, as I undoubtedly would have done, I sold off my personal property, paid all my indebtedness except a mortgage on some land, to engage in this harvest work. As I have not as yet been able to sell the land, and it being mostly unimproved will not rent for enough to pay the interest on the mortgage and the taxes, I thought to spend about a week in the spring putting in enough of a crop to pay the expenses of the place till I can sell it. If I can sell it for even a good deal less than I thought it was worth two years ago, I would have a few hundred dollars left to use as an offering to the Lord. My neighbors thought me very foolish at the course I have taken, and when I began to hold up the truth I met with opposition, but our blessed Lord and Saviour suffered without the gates and we may go to him without the camp bearing his reproach. I esteem the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. I will not be afraid of them, neither of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks. Yours in the Lord, W. B__________.

All this is confirmed in the Proclaimers book:

*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus’ baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King. They also thought they would be given their heavenly reward at that time. When that did not occur, they concluded that since Jesus’ anointed followers were to share with him in the Kingdom, the resurrection to spirit life of those already sleeping in death began then. It was also reasoned that the end of God’s special favor to natural Israel down to 36 C.E. might point to 1881 as the time when the special opportunity to become part of spiritual Israel would close. . . . That 1878 was a year of significance seemed to be fortified by reference to Jeremiah 16:18 (‘Jacob’s double,’ KJ) along with calculations indicating that 1,845 years had apparently elapsed from Jacob’s death down till 33 C.E., when natural Israel was cast off, and that the double, or duplicate, of this would extend from 33 C.E. down to 1878.
Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. (37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 1878) for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end. This date appeared in reprints of Studies in the Scriptures. (See Volume II, pages 99-101, 171, 221, 232, 246-7; compare reprint of 1914 with earlier printings, such as the 1902 printing of Millennial Dawn.) It seemed to them that this fitted well with what had been published regarding the year 1914 as marking the end of the Gentile Times.

By the time of  "Dawn" (Volume II) it was beginning to be a more important part of the 1914 explanation. But even in the chapter on the Gentile Times, from page 73 up to page 90 of that chapter, Daniel 4 is not mentioned, yet, except as a reference to show that sometimes the word "times" can also refer to literal years. This is contrasted at first with the more important use of "seven times" in Leviticus that is a better match to Jesus' use of "times" in Luke 21:24. The real focus on the seven Gentile times was in Leviticus:

Now bear in mind the date already found for the beginning of these Gentile Times--viz., B.C. 606--while we proceed to examine the evidence proving their length to be 2520 years, ending A.D. 1914. . . .  

Turning to Leviticus we find recorded blessings and cursings of an earthly and temporal character. If Israel would obey God faithfully, they would be blessed above other nations; if not, certain evils would befall them. The conclusion is stated thus: "And I will walk among you and be your God, and ye shall be my people;...but if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments, ...I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies; they that hate you shall reign over you." "And ye shall sow your seed in vain; for your enemies shall eat it." "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, THEN I WILL PUNISH YOU SEVEN TIMES more [further] for your sins." Lev. 26:17,18,24,28

This threat of "seven times" of punishment is mentioned three times. . . .  But these chastisements having failed, he applied the threatened seven times: the crown was permanently removed, and Israel, as well as the whole world, was subject to the beastly powers for seven times. Thus it befell them according to God's warning--"If ye will not yet for all this [previous chastisements] hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times."

. . .  These seven times therefore refer to the length of time during which the Gentiles should rule over them. And to this period of "seven times" our Lord undoubtedly referred when speaking of "the Times of the Gentiles."

The tree dream is finally mentioned, however, at some length, from page 90 to 97. Russell uses it under the heading "Another Line of Testimony." But he admits that it is only through a type-antitype method because in Nebuchadnezzar's case this had referred to literal years:

  . . . the Hebrew word translated "seven times" in Leviticus 26:18,21,24,28, is the same word so translated in Daniel 4:16,23,25,32, except that in Daniel the word iddan is added, whereas in Leviticus it is left to be understood. . . . In Nebuchadnezzar's case they were literal years, but, as we shall yet see, both Nebuchadnezzar and his "seven times" were typical. . . .  True to Daniel's interpretation, we are told that "All this came upon the king, Nebuchadnezzar," and that in this insane, degraded, beastly condition he wandered among the beasts until seven times (seven literal years in his case) passed over him. Daniel's interpretation of the dream relates only to its fulfilment upon Nebuchadnezzar; but the fact that the dream, the interpretation and the fulfilment are all so carefully related here is evidence of an object in its narration. And its remarkable fitness as an illustration of the divine purpose in subjecting the whole race to the dominion of evil for its punishment and correction, that in due time God might restore and establish it in righteousness and everlasting life, warrants us in accepting it as an intended type. . . .  The exact date of Nebuchadnezzar's degradation is not stated, and is of no consequence, because the period of his degradation typified the entire period of Gentile dominion . . . .

I didn't have space to include all the statements that are ironic in their confusion about what Nebuchadnezzar represents. He represented the dominion of all nations, the whole race and dominion of evil. Yet only this Gentile's 7 years of degradation represented Gentile dominion, not his years of actual Gentile domination. His restoration to Gentile dominion therefore would represent the end of Gentile dominion when Jesus (a non-Gentile) is restored to the throne of Israel. 

1914 had already been established more clearly through other methods (which we no longer accept). However, by 1890 Russell was here treating Daniel 4 at least on par with all other evidence. It was a bit better than the treatment in that first article about the seven Gentile times he had published in the Bible Examiner back in October 1876. At best, initially, one could say that the seven times was not "dependent" on Daniel 4 alone, but that Daniel 4 provided supplementary evidence to Leviticus. In fact, Russell spoke of the "seven times" as a less clear method of showing that 1914 would see the end of the great time of trouble Gentile nations had caused. In Bible Examiner, after using mostly Leviticus, but also combined with Daniel 4, he had concluded:

We will ask, but not now answer, another question: If the Gentile Times end in 1914, (and there are many other and clearer evidences pointing to the same time) . . . 

Note, that it was the many other evidences that were clearer than either Leviticus or Daniel 4. These clearer evidences had already been based on 1874 and 1878 which Russell had shown were more sure because they had been indicated through so many different "independent" proofs.

1 hour ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

If people cannot grasp what the understanding was from 1874, 1878, 1881 to 1914, and what the Bible students under the direction of Pastor Russell figured out in 1915, about how the generations before 1914 would not experience?

Before I read your name, Gnosis Pithos, I read your first sentence and still didn't have a clue who you were. The second sentence was an immediate give-away, however, based purely on the style. I even knew exactly what city would come up if I looked up the IP address, which I won't publish here, because not everyone has access to this information. I glanced over at the name, and also recognized it as a name you used a couple years ago on jw-archive, where you also made it clear that it was only one of several alternate names you were using. When I did finally look up the IP, I was a bit surprised that "Gnosis Pithos" used the EXACT same IP address as Allen Smith, AllenSmith and JWTheologian etc, etc. Since your previous explanation was that JWTheologian might be another person in the same household as you, all I can say is that you must have a crowded house.

Anyway, I don't really care about that, I just thought it was a funny experience. But, no matter what, I'm wondering if you might be able to explain some of what you meant. For example, can you explain what the understanding was (from 1874, 1878, 1881 to 1914) that people cannot grasp? What had these Bible students under the direction of Russell figured out in 1915, about how the generations before 1914 would not experience?

53 minutes ago, bruceq said:

The first instance in the Biblical record when rain is specifically mentioned as falling is in the account of the Flood.

True. But what we were avoiding was the explicit statement that "Noah had never seen rain before" which was once considered an article of his faith.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

but I just don't understand how a central doctrine of the jw faith cannot cause serious concern when it is inconsistent with the Bible.

Most Witnesses still think it is consistent with the Bible. Those who find that it isn't consistent, probably no longer see it as a central doctrine and therefore are able to dismiss it without causing a serious concern. I think it's because there is still so much more to the core teachings, and they might even seem enhanced in value when one critiques the overall set of remaining doctrines.

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

Our attitude towards God’s judgements is what is important as you stated above, if I understand you correctly.  

Absolutely. And I appreciated the comments you added from 1 Peter, 2 Peter, Ezekiel, and Psalms. "Offering ourselves willingly" gets right to the heart, our motivation.

1 hour ago, Melinda Mills said:

In your well researched dissertation, I think you can go a little further to explain these. You usually have much resources.

1.       If you care to, kindly explain this some more for me. I thought it referred to the fact that it didn’t rain, and that the water canopy was suspended above the earth.

“Just as in Noah's day, when the world was apart from the water, then suddenly in the midst of water:

“(2 Peter 3:5, 6) 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with waters.”

I believe you have been a Witness long enough to remember when we often made the point that it had never rained prior to the Flood. It used to be in one of the talk outlines, which was updated to remove it. It's not a point that any publications have repeated for 60 years. (Since the February 15, 1956 QFR.) I mention this because I do not know what the current view is on the physics of the water canopy as described. When I was doing some research on another topic, a member of the Governing Body told me that we had "dropped" the idea that each of the creative days were 7,000 years long, so that the 6 creative days had taken 42,000 years and we were already 6,000+ more years into the 7th rest day: in effect in year 48,004 Anno Mundi* at the time this came up. It was important in the 2/1/1973 Watchtower as a support for 1975 (p.83). But then, even though I was told for sure that this had been dropped and would never be mentioned again, it was mentioned again anyway. (In a January 1, 1987 QFR.)

So my comment wasn't trying to reference the canopy teaching nor to dismiss it. I notice now that it looks like I was paraphrasing verse 5 alone, but I was paraphrasing both 5 and 6 together.

35 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

You must have put a great deal of time into this research. Very much appreciated.

Glad you appreciated it, but it was more like a 'stream of consciousness' dissertation, where I just kept adding comments as I went along, hoping they'd stay fairly close to a central theme. I can't really say I spent any time at all preparing it.

39 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Though you make your points very well in this dissertation, I still believe, that the previous understanding can go alongside this without doing much harm because as you well pointed out:

“the person is not going to leave Jehovah just because of a perceived delay, but also he is not longing for the day of disaster. Perhaps it refers to the right attitude toward God's judgments.”

If you are referring to the previous set of cross-references, I had no problem with it, but it was easy to misunderstand, for me at least, without more context. I like some of the additional cross-references added in the rNWT. To me they often show a greater depth of thought.

If you are referring specifically to the 1914 doctrine, I can't quite figure out what you mean by "previous" since it is still very much "official" doctrine. Perhaps you meant from my perspective, in which case, I agree that even if the 1914 doctrine, is wrong, or unnecessary, it need not cause "much harm," assuming that we continue to highlight several of the counterbalancing ideas.

I wouldn't even bring it up, however, if I didn't think it had the potential for doing some harm. That's because I believe that Jesus was completely serious when he repeated all those ideas about not knowing the time of his parousia. I believe we feel we have found a loophole by claiming that Jesus really meant to say the time of judgement at the END of the parousia, so that it is somehow OK for us to know the time of the parousia. The problem is that knowing the time would have such an effect on our motivations that any specific types of conduct could be hypocritical. We might easily find ourselves motivated by the closeness of judgment, not purely out of willingness and love. Imagine, therefore, if we had translated the original word genealogies in the following passage with "chronology" which is, in fact, one of the primary uses of genealogies in the Bible.

(1 Timothy 1:3-5) . . .command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, 4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to chronology [literally, genealogies]. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith. 5 Really, the objective of this instruction is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy.

Verse 5 summarizes pure Christianity, and Jesus made clear that the "moral" of verse 5 was the same "moral" of not knowing the times or seasons of the parousia.

On 11/15/2016 at 5:17 PM, The Librarian said:

It is better to leave the information up so as to squash the false rumor for the next 1000 people.

I think that most people see a collection of eight photos/articles at the bottom of the screen. (I mean the "Powered by Google" grid of articles and/or ads to click on.) We probably don't all see the same selection of 8 items, but in my case it is always heavily slanted to the fake news about JWs, or JW celebrity news, or both (Trump warns Russia over JWs, Jackie Chan is one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and this current one, etc.)

It is the one topic I am least interested in, rarely click on, and it always embarrasses me that these types of articles are readily believed by Witnesses, and sometimes even SOURCED by Witnesses.

I understand that there is a certain use to keep such rumors "up" to drive traffic, but is it only gullible traffic that is desired? I have found some of these fake topics to be easily proven untrue in a matter of seconds, but sometimes these things stay up, even after I have shown the poster the proof. (The last one was to @Bible Speaks and there was not even a response.) I've seen this happen with other people also, just as it happened in this thread.

I prefer to not have such articles demeaning the site, but I know that it's at least possible to change the title of this topic, even slightly, to indicate that we all know better. I'm surprised it wasn't changed months ago, or within a couple hours of the initial post.

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

prepping us in the meetings for the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT next year or so which everyone can see coming

I hate to be left out when "everyone" else can see it coming. What "big announcement"?

@Nicole You can be counted as a Witness if you are a publisher, even an unbaptized publisher. Others might say they are Witnesses even if they only agree with Witnesses, and plan [someday] to become one. Some might have some reservations about baptism for their own reasons, perhaps good reasons, perhaps not good.

There was a time when a person was not asked to get rebaptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses if they felt that their previous baptism by members of another religion was still a valid dedication to do Jehovah's will. A person would have to be very old to have come into the organization under those particular circumstances.

I can also think of one person who told me they believed that if a Witness was spirit-anointed, they no longer needed water baptism, because the spirit supersedes the water. (I don't see their evidence for this.)