Jesus.defender

That is not slander. He CLEARLY is. Yes He did and i showed you the references. But you say those references have been corrupted or added, but you cant PROVE that excuse. Check out my other postings, Of course Jesus WHILST ON EARTH had a God. Would you expect Him to be an ATHEIST?! LOL. Of course Jesus was Gods' son. That doesn't mean He was not also God the son. If you are not willing to discuss them one at a time or reject them or ignore them, i will no longer bother with you. You are deceitful, devious, brainwashed and ignorant.

No, TELL me these scriptures.

Psalm 110:1 ‘The Lord (YHWH3068) said to my Lord (Adonai136) sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Watchtower teaching: JWs say that since Jehovah is speaking in this verse and since the ‘Lord’ is a distinct person from Jehovah, then Jesus must not be Jehovah God Almighty. In Matthew 22:41-45 Jesus claims that He Himself is the ‘Lord’ referred to by David in this Psalm. They therefore conclude that Jesus is not Jehovah, but the one Jehovah speaks to. Bible Teaching: This verse proves the deity of Christ. Question 1: Christ asks the Pharisees, ‘Whose Son is he (Christ)?’ regarding the deity of the Messiah. (Matthew 22:42) Answer: The Pharisees reply, ‘The son of David’. Their answer was correct but incomplete. II Samuel 7:12-16 shows the Messiah to be the human son of David. Psalm 110:1 shows the human Messiah also to be God (Adonai), a fact that Christ wanted the Pharisees to acknowledge. Christ anticipated the Pharisees’ half-answer. That’s why Christ then asks a question regarding Psalm 110:1. Question 2: ‘The LORD (YHWH 3068) said unto my Lord (Adonai 136), sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. If David then call him (Messiah, Christ, Son of David) Lord (Adonai 136), how is he (Adonai=God) his (David’s) son?’(Matt 22:44,45) Answer: Here the first person of the Trinity (God the Father) invites the second person of the Trinity (God the Son) to sit at His right hand. It seems odd that David would call his own son ‘My Lord’ (Adonai, a title used exclusively of God). The Messiah would be David’s son, but He would also be David’s God. He would be both God and man. Question 3: Jesus drove the point home to the Pharisees by asking, ‘If David then call him Lord (Adonai, Deity), how is he his son?’ (Matthew 22:45) Answer: The Pharisees should have replied that ‘David called his son Lord because He is God as well as man.’ But they would then be trapped into allowing Christ to be the Messiah, being both man and God. The Pharisees realised their dilemma, so they refused to answer. Key: Psalm 110:1 proves the undiminished deity of Jesus Christ, because the same word used for ‘Lord’ (Adonai) in Psalm 110:1 of Jesus Christ (Adonai the Son) is also used of the Father (Adonai the Father) many times in Scripture, such as: 1) ‘Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord (Adonai) God (YHWH 3068)’. (Exodus 23:17). 2) ‘For the Lord (YHWH 3068) your God (Elohim 430) is God (Elohim) of gods, and Lord (Adonai 136) of lords, a great God (El 410), a mighty, and a terrible’(Deuteronomy 10:17) 3) ‘Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord (Adonai 136) of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan’. (Joshua 3:11) 4) ‘And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord (Adonai) God (YHWH)...’ (Joshua 7:7) 5) ‘I prayed therefore unto the Lord (YHWH 3068), and said, O Lord (Adonai) God (YHWH 3069), destroy not thy people . . .’ (Deuteronomy 9:26) Other references to Lord (Adonai136) God (YHWH) are: Deuteronomy 3:24; Exodus 34:23; 15:17; 4:10,11; 5:22; Judges 6:22; 13:8; 16:28; II Samuel 7:18,28,29; I Kings 2:26; 8:53; Psalm 68:20; 69:6; 71:5,16; 73:28; 109:21; 141:8; Isaiah 3:15; 28:16; 22:5,12,14,15; 25:8; 40:10; 48:16; 49:22; 50:4; 52:4; 56:8 etc. Ask: Did you know that ‘Adonai’ (Lord) used of Jesus Christ in Psalm 110:1 is also used of the Father in Exodus 23:17; Deuteronomy 10:17; Joshua 3:11? Ask: Can you see that Jesus’ statement to the Pharisees in Matthew 22:42-45 was that the Messiah (Christ) would be David’s son as well as David’s God (Adonai)? Question: Does ‘Adonai’ mean Jehovah God? Answer: Yes, for these reasons: 1) It is linked together with ‘YHWH’ (Exodus 23:17). 2) Jehovah calls himself ‘Adonai’ in Isaiah 8:7, ‘The LORD (YHWH) spake also unto me again saying:. . . Now therefore behold the Lord (Adonai) bringeth up ...’ 3) WE Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of OT and NT Words, p.140 states that ‘Adonai’ applies to God: The JW claim that Jesus cannot be God because Jehovah spoke to Him, is faulty because we who are from the finite earthly realm cannot assume that God who is of infinite heavenly realms must fit into our earthly logic patterns with which we are familiar. God’s ways aregreatly above our ways. For example, in Genesis 18:1-3 Abraham addressed the three visitors as ‘Jehovah’. The two who left to visit Sodom, Lot called them ‘Jehovah’ (19:18), yet the one who remained, Abraham continued to address Him as ‘Jehovah’ (18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33). Note: JWs often mockingly ask the question when Jesus prays to Father: ‘Does God talk to Himself?’ Yes He does, as in Genesis 18:17-19 where God asks Himself a question: ‘And Jehovah said, Am I keeping covered from Abraham what I am doing?’ Later in v. 22 Jehovah separates. Hence the Father can talk to the Son, with the Son still being 100% God. Ask: If you reject the Trinity because you can’t understand it, then how do you explain how a brown cow by eating green grass gives white milk?

I Corinthians 11:3 - Is God superior to Christ? ‘But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God’. Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, because Jehovah is the head of Christ, then Christ cannot be God. They say that since I Corinthians 11:3 was written in 55 AD when Jesus was ascended and glorified, then this superior rank of Jehovah over Jesus applies to their present relationship in heaven. They claim that ‘Jesus is always presented as a lesser, separate, humble servant of God’. Should you Believe in the Trinity? p.20. The Bible teaching: I Corinthians 11:3 has to do with patterns of authority, not to do with inferiority or superiority of one person over the other. Paul says that the man is the head of the woman, even though men and women are 100% equal in their essential being. Biblically men and women and equal in nature. They are both 100% human, created in God’s image, and one in Christ (I Peter 3:7 ‘Heirs together’) Key: Hence, even though men and women are equal in nature, they function within a hierarchy. In the same way, Christ and the Father are 100% equal in their divine being and nature. ‘I and the Father are one’. (John 10:30), even though Jesus functions under the Father’s headship authority. There is no contradiction to say that among the three persons in the Godhead, there is an equality of divine being and nature as well as two members functioning under the Father’s authority. Christ is 100% God and fully equal to the Father in being and nature, yet Christ is subordinate or submissive to the Father, especially in becoming a man. Therefore I Corinthians 11:3 does not teach that Jesus is less than God. Within the Godhead, the Father acts as Head without diminishing the full deity of the Son. Question: Are women inferior in nature to men because men exercise headship over women? Question: If ‘no’, then why does the WT teach that the Father’s headship over Christ means that Christ is inferior in nature to the Father?

I Corinthians 8:6 - ‘One God the Father . . .’ ‘But to us there is but one God, the Father . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .’ Watchtower teaching: JWs argue that, since there is ‘one God’ (Jehovah) who is distinct from ‘one Lord’ (Jesus Christ), then Jesus cannot be God. Biblical reasoning: If this WT reasoning is correct, then the same logic leads us to conclude that the Father is not Lord. Note: If the reference to the Father being the ‘one God’ proves that Jesus is not God, then by the same logic we must conclude that the reference to Jesus Christ as the ‘one Lord’ means that the Father is not Lord. No JW will concede that the Father is not Lord. You cannot interpret the first part of the verse one way, and the second part of the verse another way. The faulty logic of JWs here is their assumption that the use of a title for one person (the Father) in one context, automatically rules out its application to another person (Jesus Christ) in another context. JWs should consult what all Scripture says about the Father and about Jesus Christ. 1. The Father is called Lord in Matthew 11:25: ‘I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth’. 2. Jesus Christ is called God in John 20:28: ‘My Lord and my God’, and in Hebrews 1:8: ‘Unto the Son he saith: Thy throne O God . . .’ etc. Hence ‘God’ and ‘Lord’ are used interchangeably of the Father and the Son. Question: ‘Can you see that, since Jesus as one Lord does not mean that the Father is not Lord, then by the same logic, the Father as ‘one God’ does not mean that Jesus is not God?’

John 20:17 - ‘My God and Your God’ ‘I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.’ Watchtower teaching: The JW book Reasoning from the Scriptures,$p.212, says, ‘To the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene’. JWs argue that because Jesus referred to ‘My father’ and ‘my God’, Jesus cannot be Almighty God Himself. The Bible teaching: Why did Jesus call the Father ‘my God’? Does this imply that Jesus is not God? No, not at all. Christ had only a divine nature before the incarnation. After His birth as a man, He took on a human nature. Therefore, it is in Christ’s humanity that He acknowledged the Father as ‘my God’. Key verse: ‘Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God.’ Heb 2:17 Since Christ came as a man and since some of man’s proper duties are to worship God, pray to God and address God as ‘My Father’ and ‘My God’, then it was perfectly correct for Jesus (speaking as a man) to address the Father in prayer and to call Him ‘My God’. Question: Why didn’t Jesus just say, ‘I am ascending to our Father and our God?’ Answer: Jesus always carefully distinguished His relationship with the Father from humans’ relationship with the Father. Key: Jesus was God’s Son by nature, but Christians are God’s sons by adoption. Jesus never spoke of the Father as ‘Our Father’ but as ‘the Father’ or ‘My Father’ (The Lord’s Prayer is how Christians (Our) should pray.) Question: ‘Why did Jesus always say ‘the Father’ or ‘my Father’ but never ‘our Father’? Conclusion: Because Jesus is God’s Son by nature, He is truly God. Because Jesus is also truly a man by nature, He can call the Father ‘my God’.

BOTH the FATHER and the SON HAVE the SAME 119 ATTRIBUTES, CLAIMS and MAJESTY. ‘I am Jehovah - that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another.’ (Isaiah 62:8). The glory of these 119 attributes are jointly owned by the Father and the Son, and nobody else. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, equally with the Father, because both the Father and Son alone have the following attributes: 1. both are to be honoured equally (John 5:23) 2. both are the I AM (Exodus 3:14-15; John 8:24,58) 3. both are the Mighty God (Isaiah 10:20,21; Jer 32:18; Psalm 50:1; Isaiah 9:6; Gen 49:24) 4. both own the same throne (Psalm 45:6,7; Hebrews 1:8; Revelation 22:1,3) 5. both accept worship (Exodus 34:14; I Chronicles 16:29; Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 28:9) 6. both laid the foundation of the earth (Psalm 102:24-27; Isaiah 48:13; Hebrews 1:10-12) 7. One God has created mankind (Mal. 2:10; Prov. 16:4; Isaiah 44:24; Col 1:16; John 1:3) 8. both are the Shepherd (Psalm 80;1; Gen 49:24; John 10:11; Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4) 9. both are from Everlasting (Psalm 90:2; Habakkuk 1:12; Micah 5:2; Hebrews 7:3). 10. both are the First and Last (Isaiah 44:6; Revelation 1:17,18; Rev. 2:8; See p.54).) 11. both are the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 21:5-7; 22:13-16; See p.54) 12. both come and Reward (Isaiah 40:10; 62:11; Revelation 22:12) 13. both are unchangeable (Malachi 3:6: Hebrews 13:8) 14. both have unsearchable riches (Romans 11:33; Ephesians 3:8) 15. both are the Holy One (Isaiah 43:15; Acts 3:14) 16. both are omnipresent and fill all things (Psalm 139:7; Jer. 23:24; Eph. 4:10; John 3:13) 17. both are omniscient (Psalm 147:5; Prov. 14:3; John 21:17; John 16:30; Colossians 2:3) 18. both are omnipotent (Genesis 17:1; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:3) 19. both are eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Hebrews 7:3; Micah 5:2) 20. both own the everlasting Kingdom (Psalm 145:13; Daniel 7:14; II Peter 1:11) 21. both are Lord of all (Psalm 103:19; Matthew 11:25; Acts 10:36) 22. both are the only Saviour (Isaiah 43:11; Titus 1:3,4; Philippians 3:20; II Peter 1:1; 3:18; Luke 2:11; Hebrews 5:9; Acts 4:12) 23. both are the Truth (Deuteronomy 32:4; John 14:6) 24. both are sinless (Deuteronomy 32:4; Hebrews 4:15) 25. both are in the beginning (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1) 26. both God and the Son are the Judge (Psalm 82:8; John 5:22), but the Father is not the Judge (John 5:22 ‘The Father judgeth no man’). 27. both are our Hope (Psalm 39:7; I Timothy 1:1) 28. both shelter believers under their wings (Psalm 91:2,4; Matthew 23:37) 29. both are our Redeemer (Psalm 130:7,8; Isaiah 44:6; Galatians 3:13; Titus 2:14) 30. the glory of both was seen by Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3,5; John 12:41) 31. both are the Rock (Deuteronomy 32:3,4,18; Psalm 18:31; I Corinthians 10:4) 32. both are to be looked to for salvation (Isaiah 45:22; John 1:29; John 6:40) 33. to both shall every knee bow and every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:10,11) 34. the enemies of both shall perish (Psalm 92:9; Philippians 3:18,19) 35. both send the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28; John 16:7) 36. to both shall all men come (Psalm 65:2; Isaiah 45:24; John 12:32) 37. both forgive sins (Exodus 34:7; Mark 2:5,7; Colossians 3:13) 38. both blot out sin (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 1:3; I John 1:7) 39. both still storms (Psalm 107:29; Matthew 8:26) 40. both own the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:20; Romans 8:9) 41. both seek the lost (Ezekiel 34:16; Luke 19:10) 42. to both are applied 10 aspects of the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13; see page 954) 43. both receive believers to glory (Psalm 73:24; John 14:3) 44. both are our One Master (Malachi 1:6; Matthew 23:8,10) 45. both are served by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; Colossians 3:24) 46. both lead believers to living waters (Psalm 23:2; Revelation 7:17) 47. both correct believers (Proverbs 3:12; Revelation 3:19) 48. both prepare a place for believers in heaven (Hebrews 11:16; John 14:2) 49. both are all in all (I Corinthians 15:28; Colossians 3:11) 50. both are known by believers (Galatians 4:9; Philippians 3:10; John 17:3) 51. both are cleaved to by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; John 15:4) 52. both are the light of the world (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12) 53. both are the Light of the New Jerusalem (Isaiah 60:19,20; Revelation 21:23) 54. both give eternal life (Psalm 36:9; John 10:28) 55. both are called ‘My Lord and my God’ (Psalm 35:22,23; John 20:28) 56. both are our Righteousness (Isaiah 45:24; I Corinthians 1:30; Jeremiah 23:5,6) 57. both have the same voice as of many waters (Ezekiel 43:2; Revelation 1:15) 58. both are witnessed to by believers (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 1:8) 59. both own the peace given to believers (Philippians 4:7; John 14:27) 60. both own the gospel (I Thessalonians 2:2; Romans 1:16) 61. both give saving grace (Titus 2:11; Acts 15:11) 62. both are our peace (Judges 6:24; Ephesians 2:14) 63. both are pierced and looked upon (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37) 64. both sanctify believers (Exodus 31:13; I Corinthians 6:11) 65. both give victory to believers (Psalm 98:1; I Corinthians 15:57) 66. both heal people (Exodus 15:26; Matthew 9:35) 67. both equally own the churches (I Corinthians 15:9; Romans 16:16; I and II Thess. 1:1) 68. both own the Kingdom (Matthew 6:33; Rev. 11:15). 69. both are glorified by the Gentiles (Isaiah 24:15; II Thessalonians 1:12; Matthew 12:21) 70. both own the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13:6; Philippians 1:6; II Thessalonians 2:2) 71. both give grace to believers (Romans 5:15; Colossians 1:6; II Cor. 8:9; Galatians 6:18) 72. both own the same glory (Romans 5:2; II Corinthians 8:23) 73. both own the same love (John 5:42; II Corinthians 5:14) 74. both own the same Word (Psalm 119:11; I Thessalonians 2:13; Colossians 3:16) 75. both own salvation (Luke 3:6; Jonah 2:9; Acts 4:12; II Timothy 2:10) 76. both were served equally by Paul (Titus 1:1; Romans 1:1);and by James (James 1:1) 77. both own the commandments (I John 5:3; John 14:15) 78. both had their way prepared by John the Baptist (Isaiah 40;3; Mark 1:1-3) 79. both search all hearts (Psalm 139:1; Revelation 2:23) 80. both own the same flock (I Peter 5:2; John 21:15,16) 81. both ascend on high, lead captivity captive, and give gifts to men (Psalm 68:17,18; Ephesians 4:7-10) 82. both are like a Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Mark 2:19,20) 83. both receive the glory of God alone forever and ever (Isaiah 42:8; Galatians 1:4,5; I Peter 5:10,11; II Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:21; I Peter 4:11; Revelation 1:5,6) 84. both are the source of fruit (Hosea 14:8; John 15:5) 85. both are our source of strength (Psalm 119:28; Philippians 4:13) 86. both give rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16; Matthew 11:29) 87. both shall appear at Christ’s return (Psalm 102:16; Zechariah 14:3,4,5; Titus 2:13) 88. both will come to earth (Isaiah 40:10; Revelation 22:7,12,20) 89. both are to be trusted in (Jeremiah 17:7; Ephesians 1:12; John 14:1) 90. both are our King (Isaiah 6:5; 33:22; Revelation 17:14; 19:16; I Timothy 6:14,15) 91. both will wound their enemies’ heads (Psalm 68:21; 110:6) 92. both take vengeance (Romans 12:19; II Thessalonians 1:7,8) 93. both will be opposed by the Antichrist’s armies (Isaiah 34:22; Revelation 19:19) 94. both will fight against the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Zechariah 14:3; Revelation 19:11,13,21) 95. both will destroy death (Isaiah 25:8; II Timothy 1:10). 96. both receive the faith of believers (I Thessalonians 1:8; Galatians 3:26) 97. both are our life (Deuteronomy 30:20; Colossians 3:4) 98. both are to be prayed to (Matthew 6:9; Acts 7:59) 99. both raised up Christ (Acts 2:32; John 2:19,21) 100.both own all of the other (John 16:15) 101.both enter the east gate of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 44:1,2; Luke 19:37-45) 102.the man on the throne in Ezekiel 1:26 is identified as the God of Israel in Ezek 10:20 103.both names are placed on the same level in the baptism formula (Matthew 28:19) 104.both fellowship equally with believers (I John 1:3). 105.both comfort believers (Isaiah 66:13; Philippians 2:1). 106.both receive doxologies of worship in heaven (Revelation 5:8-10; 5:11,12; 5:13,14). 107.both jointly send grace and peace to the churches (Romans 1:7). 108.both the love of the Father and love of the Son are an equal privilege given to us.(John 14:21) 109.both jointly declare themselves to be Jehovah, “I am the first,& I am the last”(Isaiah 44:6) 110.both come to his temple, ‘the Lord shall suddenly come to his temple.’(Malachi 3:1; Mat 21:13) 111.both are the King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6; John 1:49). 112. both can be blasphemed (God-Rom.2:24; HS-Luke 12:10; Christ-Luke 22:65; Acts 13:45; 18:5,6; 26:9,11) 113.both are always with all believers (Matthew 28:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14). 114.both are the one lawgiver (God-Rom.7:22; Christ-Gal.6:2; HS-Rom.8:2; James 4:12). 115.both have the same face (Revelation 22:3,4) 116.both have the same Name (Revelation 22:3,4) 117.both own the same servants (Revelation 22:3) 118.both are the Temple of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22) 119.Heavens are the work of thy hands (Psalm 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:10-12) Since both Jesus and the Father have these same attributes, both are Jehovah God. There are not 2 Gods, but One God in 3 persons. One who has these attributes must be God. The Lord’s Prayer is devoted to worshipping the Father. Jesus conceals His personal glory in this prayer as seen by other Scriptures which are just as true of Christ as the Lord’s Prayer is of the Father.

Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because: i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead. ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel.. iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans. iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote: ‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90) - About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity? - 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica. - 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians. - The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority. - The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context. v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt. vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’. This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10). vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point. Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk * ‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’ [*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:] ‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction: ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.

I am going to start more precise threads on the main passages that JW's use to imply that Jesus is not God. Again, lets stick to one or two Scripture passages per thread.

Hang on, one thing at a time. slander? Please be more specific. WHO have i slandered? Please quote. Like i said to your buddy, you can chant your mantra about the trinity as much as you want. Does not make it true. Go to my new thread and address the 4 passages i mentioned. But, you won't. I know. wiccan? LOL. You don't know what you are talking about. Yes, those who recognize they are sinners and are born again have their sins blotted out. They are STILL sinners and still sin, though. Ah, the shema. Yes, i believe the shema too. Remember too, BTW: that Jesus is called "Everlasting Father". It sure does fit the bill. Moses asked God what His name was. Jesus said it was ego eimi. Jesus used the SAME name. please DONT tell me to go to another thread. keep everything in this one please. That's NOT what the text says. It says Jesus created ALL things. It does NOT say Jesus created ALL things in the Genesis Act of Creation. Yes, and Jesus is the Word. Amen, we may know the Word is God. Jesus is the Word. Again, DONT direct me to another thread or link, please. So, you are saying that Thomas merely believed what Jesus taught. So Jesus taught that He was God. Yes, to see Jesus IS to see the Father because Jesus is God and the Father is God. Thomas addresses Jesus as ‘My Lord and my God’, thus recognizing Jesus as Jehovah God the Son. Jesus commended Thomas on his belated acknowledgement of Jesus as God. Now, what is the Jewish penalty for blasphemy? Stoning to death. So, If Jesus is not God, this statement should of resulted in a stoning. So, did Jesus pick up stones? No, Jesus commended Thomas for believing that Jesus was both Lord and God. Thomas addresses Jesus as ‘My Lord and my God’, thus recognizing Jesus as Jehovah God the Son. Jesus commended Thomas on his belated acknowledgement of Jesus as God. Thomas wasn’t calling Jesus ‘a god’; he was calling Jesus his Lord and his God. If Jesus was not Almighty God, He would have corrected Thomas by saying something like, ‘No, I am just a god, a lesser god. Jehovah is the only true God. You must not put me in Jehovah’s place. Only Jehovah may be called my Lord and my God.’ But Jesus said no such nonsense. He commended Thomas for recognizing Him as the true God. If Thomas said ‘My Lord and my God’ as an emotional exclamation of astonishment, as it is such a shame you refuse to read my PDFs.

Great, ONE verse that we can discuss. I keep saying i give up on you, yet i still come back to you. Strange how much i love you despite your rudeness and obnoxiousness. 1 John 4:1. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." To that verse, i say AMEN. I am not a prophet. I have never CLAIMED to be a prophet. But, the anti-Christian cult you love to defend DO claim to be a prophet and HAVE presented false prophecies. But all you can say is "these have been refuted before". Well, anyone can SAY that, but to PROVE it is another thing. I am not american so i have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Our enemy is satan. And unfortunatly, he is very good at his job.

Do you want those particular words "Jesus is God" ? You won't find them. Nor will you find "computer" or "Jehovahs Witnesses". I have shown time and time again that Jesus claimed to be God, but you are so brainwashed by your cult you cannot refute those passages and instead simply quote other passages that you think support your theory. I have started another thread, but i see you have not bothered to go there. I have NEVER changed my stance that Jesus is Jehovah God. Oh, my ignorant, idiotic friend. I never said those passages state that Jesus is God, you fool. "true colors" ? blah blah blah. But you JW's dont believe in a fiery furnace! LOL. Thanks for condemning me to a place you think does not exist! You can keep repeating your mantra "Jesus is not God" as much as you like. It does not make it true. Like i have said, i have started another thread with 4 verses that support my position, so lets discuss those 4 passages. You have never met an honest trinitarian? Well, i have never met an honest JW. The watchotwer has proven themselves to be dishonest, liars and as a leading Greek scholar says "diabolical deceivers", so lets not play the honesty claim. I have told you why i dont address ALL your points. If you want to pick ONE verse that you think supports your position, present it and lets discuss it. ONE verse. I know the standard, robotic ones JW's use and i can address each and every one. But, ONE verses per comment. If you dare.

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important. God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite, omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods. The Bible says that God the father is God. The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference Revelation 1:17 ) The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11 The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15, NEHEMIAH 9:6, PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ), PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5. Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God. We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us that's the way it is.

I can post links showing the trinity to be true. We can post links to eachother and get nowhere.  Your problem is you have been brainwashed by the watchtower and are not allowed to think for yourself. ( "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22), "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 ) )  Just because, for example you cannot find the word "trinity" ( which in itself is not important ) in the Bible does not mean it does not exist. The words "theocracy" or "theocratic kingdom" are not there either, so if you want to go down that route...  If anyone would like to discuss things, i am happy to go through verses that you think disprove the "trinity", but let us do it ONE verse per message.  In fact, i will start a new thread with just a few passages that support the "trinity" so the messages do not get out-of-hand or too long. Believe it or not, i am not a bad person. I am fully capable of a polite, friendly dialog. Do not confuse passion for arrogance or rudeness. Of course, i am human and it is not always easy to turn the other cheek and i succumb to emotions sometimes and give abuse back.  If i do not address something that someone wants, there IS a good reason and is not because i don't HAVE rebuttal or reply. maybe the person is generally too rude, maybe the message is too long, maybe it is a red herring, maybe it is off-topic.  In the experiences i have had with JW's locally and on social media, a great many of them ( with all due respect ) do not know what Christians believe and your printed material i have found contains many falsehoods, misquotes and outright lies. I have a magazine by my computer desk that talks, for example about spiritists and how we ought to have nothing to do with them. What the article fails to mention is that the watchtower used the words of KNOWN spiritist and mediam johannes greber in the translation of the nwt and "Aid to Bible Understanding".  The booklet "Should you believe in the trinity" is at best, laughable and contains many lies and misquotes. I have a whole list of rebuttels for that booklet alone WITH SOURCES.  I think the average JW puts the average Christian to shame. They dress appropriately, lead seemingly good lives and go door to door. We Christians ought to be ashamed of ourselves.  However, when they blacklist a house because the owner knows the Bible, that's another thing.  Sorry for going off-topic a bit. I am just typing what i feel is needed. BTW: I hate those symbols people use to express the "trinity". Some of them ARE occultic symbols. Just because someone used that symbol to describe the "trinity" does not make the concept occultic.  I mean, you guys used the pyramid and calculated the end of the world ( THAT didn't work out, did it?! ) using the measurements of the pyramid as well as astrology was used in some of your publications so lets not start casting stones at eachother.  You ASSUME that people using those symbols are Christian, BTW

Funny, isn't it that the majority of manuscripts read ‘the Lord’. Question: Isn’t it coincidental that all modern versions, based on the corrupt Egyptian readings, have one major fact in common: that they omit many Deity of Christ verses? The KJV ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ is a clear proof of Christ being God, as there is only one Lord from Heaven, and He is ‘Jehovah’. What manuscript support is there for ‘the Lord’ in I Corinthians 15:47? See UBS Greek NT: Thirteen early writers known as Church Fathers quote it: a) Hippolytus 170-236 AD, Vol. 5, p 167 b) Tertullian 200-250 AD against Marcion, Vol. 3, page 451 Vol.3, page 529 c) Victorinus, Vol 7, page 342 d) Basil 379 AD e) Chrysostom 407 AD f) Maximinus 428 AD g) Cyril 444 AD h) Euthalius 450 AD i) Theodoret 466 AD j) Ps-Athanasius 550 AD k) Cosmas 550 AD l) John Damascus 749 AD m) Origen 254 AD (2) Six Uncial Greek Manuscripts contain ‘the Lord’: a) Codex Sinaiticus corrected (Aleph) b) Codex Alexandrinus (A) c) Codices D, K, P, ?. (3) Nineteen Minuscule Greek Manuscripts numbered 81, 104, 181, 326, 330 436, 451, 614, 629, 1241, 1739, 1877, 1881, 1962, 1984, 1985, 2127,2492, 2495. (4) Byzantine lectionaries contain the words ‘the Lord’. (5) Ancient versions containing ‘the Lord’ are: a) Syriac Peshitta d) Gothic b) Syrian Harclean e) Armenian c) Syriac Palestinian Conclusion: 44 ancient witnesses from all over the ancient world testify to Jesus Christ as being ‘the Lord from heaven’. NWT is wrong here because no man originated from heaven. Don't believe the false anti-Christian booklet "Should you believe in the Trinity" by the devious and deceitful watchtower which invented quotes of Church fathers on p7. Here is what they actually said AND THE SOURCE: Ignatius (30-107 AD) taught by John, believed in the Deity of Christ and Trinity: “Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies (p 56) continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God (p. 68)… loving Polycarp even as I do you (p. 58),… For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father (p. 74). Those things have been fulfilled in the Gospel, (our Lord saying), Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Matt 28:19) (Ante-Nicene Fathers VI, p.85). Tertullian (160-225 AD) was a juriconsult (law authority) familiar with the Roman archives which influenced his acceptance of Divine truth. He would not have boldly appealed to the archive records before the Roman Emperor, his colleagues and the Senate, had he not known that the evidence was irrefutable. He writes as follows: Tertullian (first half of the third century AD), Apol. XXI: “The Jews were so exasperated by His teaching, by which their rulers and chiefs were convicted of the truth, chiefly because so many turned aside to Him, that at last they brought Him before Pontius Pilate, at that time Roman governor of Syria; and, by the violence of their outcries against Him, extorted a sentence giving Him up to them to be crucified. He Himself had predicted this, which, however, would have signified little had not the prophets of old done it as well. And yet, nailed upon the cross, He exhibited many notable signs, by which His death was distinguished from all others. At His own free-will, He with a word dismissed from Him His spirit, anticipating the executioners work. In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world portent still in your archives. (XXI.19:Et tamen suffixus multa mortis illius propria astendit insignia.. nam spiritum cum verbo sponte dimisit, praevento carnificis officio. Eodem momento dies medium orbem signante sole subducta est. Deliquium utique putaveruni qui id quoque super Christo praedicatum no sierunt. Et tamen eum mundi casum relatum in arcanis vestries habetis.) Then, when His body was taken down from the cross and placed in a sepulcher, the Jews in their eager watchfulness surrounded it with a large military guard, lest, as He had predicted His resurrection from the dead on the third day, His disciples might remove by stealth His body, and deceive even the incredulous. But, lo, on the third day there was a sudden shock of earthquake, and the stone which sealed the sepulcher was rolled away, and the guard fled off in terror: without a single disciple near, the grave was found empty of all but the clothes of the buried One. But nevertheless, the leaders of the Jews, whom it nearly concerned both to spread abroad a lie, and keep back a people tributary and submissive to them from the faith, gave it out that the body of Christ had been stolen by His followers. For the Lord, you see, did not go forth into the public gaze, lest the wicked should be delivered from their error; that faith also, destined to a great reward, might hold its ground in difficulty. But He spent forty days with some of His disciples down in Galilee, a region of Judea, instructing them in the doctrines they were to teach to others. Thereafter, having given them commission to preach the gospel through the world, He was encompassed with a cloud and taken up to heaven, a fact more certain far than the assertions of your Proculi concerning Romulus. All these things Pilate did to Christ; and now in fact a Christian in his own convictions, he sent word of Him to the reigning Caesar, who was at that time Tiberius.’ (Apologies, XXI, 19). 1252 1) Ignatius (30-107 AD) taught by John, believed in the Deity of Christ and Trinity: “Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies (p 56) continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God (p. 68)… loving Polycarp even as I do you (p. 58),… For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father (p. 74). Those things have been fulfilled in the Gospel, (our Lord saying), Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Matt 28:19) (Ante-Nicene Fathers VI, p.85). 2) Pliny the Younger (61-112 AD) was the Governor of Bithynia in 112 Ad and a Roman Senator. He wrote to the Emperor Trajan asking for the guidance on how he should treat the Christians in his province. He stated that Christians were ‘meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do wicked deeds, never commit fraud, theft, adultery, not to lie, nor to deny a trust…’ (Epistles X.96). This reveals that early Christians: i) Worshipped Jesus Christ as God. ii) Met on a fixed day of the week. iii) Were committed to holy, truthful, honest behavior. Pliny described the Christians as people who loved the truth at any cost, and were willing to die as martyrs rather than deny their faith in Jesus as the Son of God. 3) Cornelius Tacitus Governor of Asia Minor (Turkey) in 112 AD. Tacitus (55-120 AD) has been called the greatest historian of Ancient Rome, as well as being Governor of Asia Minor (Turkey) in 112 AD. He wrote two major works: Annals and Histories. Being a Roman Governor and historian, he had access to the Roman Government archives. He confirmed many historical details in the Gospels, Acts and Romans. In his Annals, written after 64 AD, he referred to Emperor Nero’s persecution of the Christians for allegedly burning the city of Rome, which Nero himself had done: “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of the Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a mighty illumination, when daylight was expired” (Annals 15,44). This reference shows that: i) Christ lived during the reign of Tiberius Caesar (AD 13-37). ii) Pontius Pilate put him to death. iii) The word ‘superstition’ suggests a religion. iv) Christ had followers who were named Christians. v) The Christians suffered under the Roman emperor Nero and were hated by others.

LOL. what a load of nonsense. I can post links to MANY videos proving the trinity. Doing it that way will get us nowhere, my friend. Many people forget that Jesus existed LONG before He came to earth. Funny, i was looking at a rainbow yesterday. I was thinking, wow, people can see that light can be parted into different colors, but they refuse to believe that God is capable of splitting Himself into three personages ( for lack of a better phrase ). Also, ask any chemist about the "triple point of water" where simple H2O can exist as liquid, solid and gas AT THE SAME TIME. What a shame you people limit God. re: the Greek or Hebrew characters in the video thumbnail? Big deal! WHICH manuscripts are they from? Many people FOOLISHLY think that the Bible came from one manuscript line.

great 117 JEHOVAHS WITNESSES the TRINITY.pdf

How about 120 VERSES? Oh, thats right, all those verses were added! LOL! 120 Bible passages referring to Jehovah that in the New Testament are quoted and applied to Christ..rtf

LOL. You, sir are an idiot. forged? added? Right, WHEN and by WHOM? DONT copy and paste, i know you hate that, and dont refer people to a website. Come on, WHEN and WHO? funny how not even a dozen verses in the Bible can convince you. Your response? Oh, those passages are forged or added. And you are stupid to think that the EARLIER a document is, that automatically makes it TRUE. you are a ridiculous and sad person.

God bless you.

Ok, thank you for that. You are right. I AM a wicked, dirty, rotten, filthy sinner just like you. God bless you.

BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages. Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity. Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity: 1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it. Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead. This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say: i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings. iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person. What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’. Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name. He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the article (tou): Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are: i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27. The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God. ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22) ‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead. iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7). iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5). Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead. 2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah. JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that: i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT); ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33). iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT) iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24) Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth. This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’). Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one. 3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT). JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God. II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’ How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead. 4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses) Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’ Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript. Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806). 5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’? ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14) ‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19

 God bless you.

I have told you YES, i do copy and paste. In this instance, FROM THE WATCHTOWER ORGANISATION as it is much easier than typing it all out. May you repent of your sin and be born again.

Exactly. A "impersonal force" does NOT identify itself as an individual! "Separate Saul and Barnabas to ME" . When i showed that passage and "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." which identifies the Holy Ghost as God the JW elder stopped visiting me! I hope he got born again.