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HollyW

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Everything posted by HollyW

  1. Just curious.....do the two of you teach this to the students you are directing to the WTS Organization?
  2. This is what I mean, Ben. Your immediate reaction is to doubt the victim's story. It's her story, she's the one who told it, not Jay Witness. Jay linked to where the victim's story is. I truly do not understand how someone who was abused as a child could react as you have to Shelley's experience. Wouldn't you have wanted your story to be accepted as being true and wanted compassion and understanding instead of accusations of lying and slander; instead you took judgmental attitude, nitpicking about a word she used, which turns out to be the exact word she should have used taking her audience into consideration.
  3. Don't you think that's why they added "or harbor private ideas" at the end of their statement? He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding.
  4. It is easy to obey when everything is clear and we agree, but we will show that we are truly submissive if we yield even when we do not personally understand the direction provided. Now do you see?
  5. The thing is, the "general" prophetic work has already been done by the prophets in the Bible -- you say the WTS is a prophet in the sense of reiterating what's already been done by Jehovah thru the prophets he actually spoke thru in the Scriptures -- so there's nothing to the WTS's credit for doing what's already been done, just as millions of Christians have been doing for centuries, proclaiming what's already in the Bible. There's no question of Jehovah rejecting what he commissioned his true prophets to do and for the WTS to claim that he's doing this only thru them is entirely wrong. Their 100% failure in their "time-related" prophecies makes them a false prophet, one not to listen to. If they are proclaiming what Ezekiel has already proclaimed, it would be better to listen to Ezekiel, who was actually inspired by God, then to listen to the WTS, regardless of what they have said or not said about the League of Nations.
  6. Have you placed the brochure "Return to Jehovah" with an inactive JW? Please share the experience and any questions that may have come up when you did. Thanks.
  7. Anna is correct on this. JWs are to believe and do whatever the men on the governing body of the WTS tell them to believe and do even if it seems strange and even if they don't agree with it........: Watchtower, November 15, 2013, pg.20 Simplified Edition: At that time, the direction that you receive from Jehovah’s organization may seem strange or unusual. But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not, because obeying these instructions will save our lives. Study Edition: At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. ......and even if it's WRONG! [wt 4/1/07 p.28, par.8-9] 8 We obey the elders not only because we are directed to do so in God’s Word but also because we are persuaded that they have Kingdom interests and our best interests at heart. We will certainly be happy if we willingly accept their leadership. 9 What, though, if we are not convinced that in a certain case the elders’ direction is the best way of doing things? That is where submission comes into play. It is easy to obey when everything is clear and we agree, but we will show that we are truly submissive if we yield even when we do not personally understand the direction provided.
  8. What you would need to find in the Bible as an appropriate comparison for the WTS is a prophet who was wrong on 100% of his prophecies, not just occasionally, and was still a prophet of Jehovah.
  9. Under the circumstances (telling her story to Christians and non-JWs) she chose the appropriate word (hell) that would convey the same consequences as the eternal damnation (annihilation) taught by the WTS. That your first reaction and that of Anna is to accuse the victim of slander and lies is more indicative of a heart the size of an unsoaked pinto bean than that of a religion that claims to help victims of child abuse. Turning a deaf ear doesn't help either. Child abuse IS an emotional and traumatic experience. Most victims can't even talk about it for years. And then to face being called a liar and a slanderer is tantamount to being raped all over again. If your input on this is what JW victims have to face when they go to the elders, the elders need to get out of the picture by immediately turning the matter over to the proper authorities and caring adults.
  10. Doncha hate it when that happens. So, in what way did I read your answer improperly? Please explain.
  11. Believe me, I was not looking for faults when I started my research. If ever asked, I wanted to be able to answer the question prompted by the Greatest Man book. "Who were those faithful followers who observed Christ's return in 1914?" Using only WT publications, I found out there weren't any because in 1914 the WTS was teaching that Christ had already returned, in 1874. What I found myself looking at was a falsehood about WTS history. It wasn't a mistaken belief nor an incorrect expectation. It was a lie, no less than the two I've just shared with you from "God's Kingdom Rules." It happens more often than I'm sure you'd care to know. May our Lord and God bless you in your research and efforts to find the truth.
  12. I have taken what the current book is saying and researching it from the older publications. The letter from the GB said to picture yourself there in 1914 when Charles Russell announced that the Gentile Times had ended. I researched Russell's writings and found out what his announcement meant to his audience. Isn't that the logical place to go to in order to find out why his audience greet this news with such enthusiasm? The current book says, "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence." That couldn't be true because in 1914 they had already discerned the sign of Christ's presence from 1874. Where else would you look except in what they were publishing back then? The current books says, "Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year." I went to what the Bible Students were saying long before 1914, and it was that it would END in 1914, not BEGIN. Please research these things for yourself, and do that with ALL the references throughout this book.
  13. Eoin, you've been shown the truth, so how would you reword this statement to change it from being a lie to being the truth? "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence."
  14. The abusers themselves have been given the out by the WTS itself, Ben. Unless they confess to it or invited two people in to watch it being done, the victim has no protection, is not believed, and is muzzled by the very ones who claim to protect children from being abused. Their rules do NOT protect the victims, they protect the predators. This is common knowledge to anyone who has ever had these kinds of dealings with the WT Organization. No one has to tell lies to damage its reputation, the truth is doing a fine job of exposing them. You didn't answer my question about being taught the use of appropriate terms depending on your audience. Has that been dropped from the Ministry Book now, or did you not read what I posted about it?
  15. Regarding the passage you've referenced there in Revelation 12, please research what the WTS was saying in 1914 about that chapter. In 1917 the WTS published a book called "The Finished Mystery" which is a compilation of the late Russell's teaching on the books of Revelation and Ezekiel. Chapter 12 in TFM is called "The Birth of Antichrist" and the information is from what Russell wrote in 1881 in the December ZWT p.305.
  16. Thank you, Eoin, however what you are not seeing is that this is a false statement on page 20: "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence." And this is a false statement on page 22: "Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year." These statements are not incorrect expectations or mistaken understandings or any of the other terms used to excuse the failed predictions of the WTS. Those two statements are flat out false and your leaders know it because: In 1914 the Bible Students did NOT begin to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence. And long before 1914, the Bible students did NOT say that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year. Their own publications show that they are NOT telling you the truth in the book you're now studying. I hope that clears things up for you.
  17. Copying JW Insider's idea of coming up with a question you might have to wrestle with at someone's door, I thought this might be interesting to see how you would reply to this question: If the men on the WTS Governing Body were to come right out and say they are infallible, would they lay claim to anything different than what they've already claimed? Here's some background research you might be presented with. They are men who claim to be God's sole channel of communication to mankind, they claim what they teach is directly from God (this goes all the way back to Russell who claimed his inaccurate dates were God's dates), they claim you can't understand the Bible without them to teach you, and they claim you have to believe their teachings so thoroughly you aren't to even harbor thoughts that differ from what they are teaching, on pain of excommunication. ZWT July 1, 1894 ::R1677 : page 226: We see no reason for changing the figures-- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the WATCH TOWER of Jan. 15, '92. We advise that it be read again. ZWT - 1894 - R1611 thru R1747 / R1668 (211) WT February 1, 1952, p.79-8: We should eat and digest and assimilate what is set before us, without shying away from parts of the food because it may not suit the fancy of our mental taste. The truths we are to publish are the ones provided through the discreet-slave organization, not some personal opinions contrary to what the slave has provided as timely food. Jehovah and Christ direct and correct the slave as needed, not we as individuals. WT June 15, 1957, p.370: Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. “God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased,” is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision. WT October 1, 1967, p.591: Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect. WT December 1, 1981, p.27-28: Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. WT August 1, 2001, p.14: First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. WT November 15, 2013, p.20: At that time, the direction that you receive from Jehovah’s organization may seem strange or unusual. But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not, because obeying these instructions will save our lives.
  18. Eoin, thank you for the page correction, but your disappointment should be in your own religious leaders who are being dishonest in relating WTS history to you. Please research this for yourself. In 1914 they were saying they had discerned Christ's presence as having started in 1874, not 1914. It is a lie to say otherwise. And they hadn't actually discerned it as having started in 1874 until Barbour convinced Russell of it in 1876. They were wrong about 1874 and they are wrong about 1914. Being dishonest about their history isn't going to change that. You and all JWs should be carefully and diligently researching all of this as you study "God's Kingdom Rules" together, because this is a lie: "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence." The other lie is on page 22 where they say the following in paragraph 29: "Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year." They were not saying it would BEGIN in 1914, they were saying it would END in 1914. ZWT 7/1/1894 p.226: "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." Here's the context, referring to 1914 as God's date: In reference to Armageddon, ZWT of Jan 15, 1892 p.24-25, has the following about “the battle of the great day of God Almighty.” It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874. The date of the close of that “battle” is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914.
  19. JWs interpret the importance of the J Docs by the importance the WTS has put on them, and that is to supposedly correct the inspired text of the Greek NT mss, claiming those Greek mss were tampered with in 127 places where "Jehovah" was removed from them by those they call "apostate Christians". By claiming this, the WTS has called into question the reliability of the NT.
  20. I posted one of them Wednesday in another thread: http://forum.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/16699-gods-kingdom-rules/?page=2#comment-27582
  21. I recently read these two books: "The Pope's Jews" and "The Scarlet & the Black" Both of these books exonerate the Vatican and two Popes, Pius XI and Pius XII, from charges of supporting Hitler during WWII. "The Scarlet & the Black" was made into a movie starring Gregory Peck as the Irish Priest, Hugh O'Flaherty, who was at the Vatican and made it his mission to rescue as many Allied POWs and Jews as he could. He risked his life to do it, right under the nose of the Nazi who had pledged to kill him. The book has a very remarkable ending. "The Pope's Jews" also has O'Flaherty in it, but focuses more on Pius XII and what he did to rescue Jews from the Nazis by providing not only money but fake baptism certificates and visas as well.Well written and very informative.
  22. Regarding rewriting their own history, please be sure to research what's in this book because there are at least two direct falsehoods on pages 21 and 22.
  23. There are various lists of questions on the internet to ask JWs, some lists are even up to 101 questions. The only one that comes up about "Millions now living....." is this one: Is it true that the WTS's prophecy that Armageddon will come before "the end of the generation of 1914" (You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, pg 154), is no longer taught as "the Truth"? If so, then does this mean that this teaching of the WTS, which they have taught as "the Truth" for decades, was really a false teaching? Since the WTS claims that they are the "one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things" (Jehovah's Witnesses-Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, pg 626) and that the governing body is "the sole channel of communication of Jehovah God", does this mean that God changed His mind about this teaching and the definition of "generation"? The WTS has taught that Armageddon was going to occur in: 1914 - The Time Is At Hand, 1888 (1911 ed.), pg 101; Zion 's Watchtower, 1/15/1892, pg..221915 - The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, pg. 991918 - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 62, 4851925 - Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, pg 89-90, Watchtower, 7/15/24, pg 2111931 - Vindication, Book 1, pg. 147WWII - Watchtower, 9/15/41, pg 2881975 - Kingdom Ministry, 6/69, pg 3; AWAKE!, 10/8/68, etc. ”Before the end of the generation of 1914” - You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, pg 154 In addition, the WTS claims that it is “God’s one and only channel of communication to the world”, etc., clearly claiming to speak for God. Since Deut 18:20-22 says that a false prophet is anyone who claims to speak for God and makes a prophecy that does not come true, doesn’t this make the WTS a modern day false prophet according to scripture?
  24. "You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." Dt. 18:21-22
  25. On another thread a question came up about authenticity and this brochure. How many of you believe the experiences related in it are true? This is Martha's experience, from the brochure: Page 10: “My new job improved our family’s standard of living, but it also led me into all sorts of questionable activities. I began to celebrate holidays, to participate in political events, and even to attend church. I was inactive as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 40 years. The more time that went by, the more I thought I was beyond Jehovah’s forgiveness. I felt that I couldn’t forgive myself. After all, I knew the truth before I headed down the wrong path.”—Martha. Page 11: That is what happened to Martha. She relates: “My son kept sending me the Watchtower and Awake! magazines. Little by little, I became reacquainted with Jehovah. The hardest part of coming back was asking forgiveness for all the sins I had committed. But finally, I approached God in prayer and asked him to forgive me. It’s hard to believe that 40 years went by before I returned to Jehovah. I am living proof that even after many years, someone can be given another chance to serve God and be back in his love.” Is it authentic or made up?
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