HollyW

Doesn't the WTS teach using appropriate terms depending on your audience? Obviously the girl whose story Jay Witness posted was not talking to JWs so she used terms her audience would understand. Christians and others outside the WTS don't realize JWs believe they all are going to hell (Sheol, Hades) (except the 144,000) and saying she was afraid she wouldn't be resurrected wouldn't have meant much to non-JWs. How can you and Anna strain at this gnat and overlook the child who was doubly abused, first by the rapist and then by her parents!

Were any of these points mentioned at all when you discussed the letter from the GB when you started your study of the book,"God's Kingdom Rules" ?

None of your previous posts answer what I've asked. You only think you answered the question, you didn't. A response is not an answer, it's merely a response, and while I thank you for your responses, for our discussion to continue, I'd rather you just answered the question.

The official response has been suggested as: "We aren't false prophets because we never said any of those false prophesies in Jehovah's name." Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’

The scriptures Christians base their belief in the rapture on are the following: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.” 1 Cor. 15:51-52, “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” Does the WTS still say this event is an ongoing one since 1918 involving just a small segment of Jehovah's Witnesses as "the dead in Christ" ?

I'm all for you having your own opinions, Anna, but what I posted is from your own religious leaders and I'm not sure they want you quibbling and mouthing objections to what they've said, do you? You seem to be coming up with all sorts of excuses not to accept what they've said. Does JW Insider share the view of the men on the WTS Governing Body, the viewpoint I posted from the Revelation Climax commentary or is he voicing his own opinion?

Ben, Anna, no compassion for a sixteen year old forced to marry her rapist and have his child? Shouldn't he have been disfellowshipped for what he had done to her? You're reflecting the attitudes of her parents who sound they were only concerned about the father's standing in the congregation and not the well-being of their daughter.

First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45. (Watchtower, August 1, 2001, p.14) To survive the great tribulation and Armageddon, the WTS says the great crowd must be JWs in good standing----You don't agree with that? Has the Revelation Climax commentary has been adjusted to say different.

WTS says No. Their viewpoint from Revelation Climax p. 126: How do individuals of the great crowd qualify for survival? The elder tells John that they have “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” In other words, they have exercised faith in Jesus as their Ransomer, have made a dedication to Jehovah, have symbolized their dedication by water baptism, and “hold a good conscience” by their upright conduct. (1 Peter 3:16, 21; Matthew 20:28) Thus, they are clean and righteous in Jehovah’s eyes. And they keep themselves “without spot from the world.”—James 1:27. 25 Further, they have become zealous Witnesses of Jehovah—“rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple.”

Melinda, you had indicated that Jesus would have had in mind both believers and unbelievers in "this generation". In view of what you're studying this week in the book, "God's Kingdom Rules", would you care to revise your answer to now exclude unbelievers? 16. "This generation." Did Jesus have in mind unbelievers? No. Consider his audience. Jesus related this prophecy to a few apostles who had "approached him privately." (Matt. 243) The apostles would soon be anointed with holy spirit. Note also the context. Before he spoke about "this generation," Jesus said: "Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors." Jesus' anointed followers-not unbelievers-would see the things he foretold and would discern their significance, namely, that Jesus "is near at the doors." Therefore, when Jesus spoke of "this generation," he had in mind his anointed followers.

I have already answered... You responded, you didn't answer.

Martha having been a JW before her 40 year period of being inactive as a JW from 1974 to 2014 (or pick any 40 year period prior to January 2015), Martha would have still believed the truth was that organ transplants were cannibalism and were prone to causing personality changes. This ‘truth’ didn’t change until 1980, and by 1989 organ transplants were being commended as having helped people. Blood transfusions-----even of the component parts of blood----were a disfellowshipping offense back when Martha became inactive. She’ll find that now the truth has changed again and blood transfusions are acceptable as long as the whole blood is broken down into fractions. Also that violating the WTS ban on blood does not bring disfellowshipping but disassociation (a distinction without a difference since the punishment is the same for both: shunning.)

This is from the brochure: Page 10: “My new job improved our family’s standard of living, but it also led me into all sorts of questionable activities. I began to celebrate holidays, to participate in political events, and even to attend church. I was inactive as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 40 years. The more time that went by, the more I thought I was beyond Jehovah’s forgiveness. I felt that I couldn’t forgive myself. After all, I knew the truth before I headed down the wrong path.”—Martha. Page 11: That is what happened to Martha. She relates: “My son kept sending me the Watchtower and Awake! magazines. Little by little, I became reacquainted with Jehovah. The hardest part of coming back was asking forgiveness for all the sins I had committed. But finally, I approached God in prayer and asked him to forgive me. It’s hard to believe that 40 years went by before I returned to Jehovah. I am living proof that even after many years, someone can be given another chance to serve God and be back in his love.” Do you believe it is authentic or made up?

Martha’s story is in the Return to Jehovah brochure which came out in January of 2015. Martha claims to have been inactive for 40 years before she returned to the WTS. If that return was in 2014, the year before the brochure came out, she would have been inactive from about 1974. Returning to the WTS is also called returning to Jehovah by JWs, but it is also called returning to the truth…..a word that becomes rather fluid among JWs since it doesn’t ever refer to the truth of their teachings. One has only to look at what WTS teachings were 40 years ago when Martha became inactive, to what those teachings are today. The world was going to end in 1975……obviously not the truth. There were no more spirit-anointing going on to fill the ranks of the 144,000….not true any more. The 144,000 were the faithful and discreet slave…….not true any more. The faithful and discreet slave was appointed over all the Master’s belongings…….not true any more. The other sheep were the belongings of the parable at Matthew 24:45-47…….they’ve been elevated to domestics now. The generation of Matthew 24:34 would be remembered by Martha as being, beyond question, worldly people, as described in the wt: "The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a generation in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period. So it was on this generation that the accumulated judgments were to fall. (Matt. 23:36) This therefore means that from 1914 a generation shall not pass till all is fulfilled, and amidst a great time of trouble." Watchtower 1951 Jul 1 p.404 This teaching has gone thru three changes since Martha became inactive. I wonder if she would recognize the current “overlapping” scenario as being “the truth.”

Did you read this brochure in Greek?! Martha has admitted what she did during those 40 years of being an inactive JW. How else did the WTS get her story. The implication in the brochure is that she was welcomed back with open arms. Again, Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

LOL. It wasn't a very bright day for a lot of folks. You've probably always looked forward to being on earth, not in heaven with Jesus, so I don't know if you can imagine what it must have been like to look forward to being in heaven and then have the door shut in your face. That's what happened to a great multitude of folks that day. Right out of the mouth of Rutherford.

Thank you, Alexa.

I had to repost because of the formatting. Sorry about that. Anyway, the article you linked to does mention this incident: At a Washington, D.C. convention in 1935, Rutherford rejected Russell's teaching that the "great company" of Revelation 7:9 was a "secondary spiritual class" composed of millions of Christians who would be resurrected to heaven apart from the 144,000 "elect", and instead argued that the "great multitude", the "sheep" of Matthew 25 and the "Jonadabs" of 2 Kings chapter 10 all picture the people who could potentially survive Armageddon and receive everlasting human life on earth if they became Jehovah's Witnesses before it began. The Proclaimer's book describes how the Jonadabs came about and what led to them coming to the 1935 convention: *** jv 83-4 7 Advertise the King and the Kingdom! (1919-1941) *** What About the Jonadabs? In 1932 it was explained that Jehonadab (Jonadab), King Jehu’s associate, prefigured a class of persons who would enjoy everlasting life on earth. (2 Ki. 10:15-28) The Jonadabs, as they came to be known, counted it a privilege to be associated with Jehovah’s anointed servants and to have some share with them in advertising the Kingdom. But at that time, there was no special effort to gather and organize these individuals with an earthly hope. However, real encouragement was given to the Jonadabs in The Watchtower of August 15, 1934. The article “His Kindness” stated: “Should a Jonadab consecrate himself to the Lord and be baptized? Answer: Most assuredly it is proper for a Jonadab to consecrate himself to do the will of God. No one will ever get life without doing that. Water immersion is merely a symbol of having made a consecration [or, as we would now say, dedication] to do God’s will, and that would not be out of order.” The Jonadabs were thrilled! Yet, even greater joy was near for them. The following spring, several issues of The Watchtower, beginning with the April 1, 1935, issue, carried this announcement: “Again The Watchtower reminds its readers that a convention of Jehovah’s witnesses and Jonadabs will be held at Washington, D.C., beginning May 30 and ending June 3, 1935.” The Jonadabs eagerly awaited the convention. And the 1988 wt describes what happened at the convention: *** w88 3/1 12 My Life in Jehovah's Spirit-Directed Organization *** Early in 1935, some six months after my release from prison and return to Bethel, I recall a number of discussions at the Bethel table regarding the identity of the “great multitude.” (Revelation 7:9, 13, King James Version) Some expressed support for the view that this was a secondary heavenly class, even as the first president of the Watch Tower Society, Brother Russell, had taught. Others, however, argued that the “great multitude” consisted of those with an earthly hope. During these discussions, Brother Rutherford did not commit himself. All of us at Bethel were excited as we traveled by special train to Washington, D.C., for the convention to be held from May 30 to June 3, 1935. On the second day of the convention, Brother Rutherford presented the thrilling news that the “great multitude” are indeed an earthly class. At the climactic moment, he asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” About half of the 20,000 in attendance stood. Then Brother Rutherford proclaimed: “Behold! The great multitude!” There was a brief hush. Then we all shared in a gladsome cry, and the cheering was loud and long. The next day 840 were baptized, mostly of the earthly class. Those designated up to this time as the great crowd would not have stood up because their hope was a heavenly one, so they sat there and listened as that heavenly hope was dashed for them by Rutherford giving their designation to the Jonadabs, a group who weren't even called Jehovah's Witnesses at the time.

Ahem you two......he closed the door of heaven in their faces: “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13 And the way he did it was not to even address it to THEM. No, he had invented a class of earthly hopers a few years before whom he called the Jonadabs and at the convention he had them stand up and then pointing them he pronounced that THEY were the great crowd. Is it any wonder everyone was speechless?! He had just ripped a heavenly hope away from a great crowd who had remained seated when he asked those with an earthly hope to stand up.

Was that maybe the answer you were looking for then, that Yes, only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved.

That's quite the broad brush you're painting with there.

From what Melinda quoted, JWs don't want the Kingdom of God to be in their hearts, they just want it to be close to their hearts, as the Kingdom Rules book points out, the Kingdom is close to Jesus' heart and Jehovah's heart so JWs are told, "Each of us does well to ask, 'Is God's Kingdom close to my heart?'" [pages 6,7] Good points, Shiwiii about the coming of the kingdom.

I hope it's AllenSmith you are admonishing about his use of "drivel".

For the example of Martha in the brochure, I wouldn't recommend any disciple for her at all. She felt sorry for what she believed were sins and she confessed them to God and believed she was forgiven. Do you believe the elders would not meet with her to find out why she had been away so long and what she had been doing during that time?

What seems to me to be missing from the brochure is any mention of those returning being disciplined. Why is that? Martha's story stood out because of the length of time she was an inactive JW, and because her sins were of the gross kind to the WTS: politics, birthdays, churches. But no mention of the elders sitting down and talking to her to determine what her sins were for those 40 years, how many times she had committed those sins, and which ones, if any,she was still practicing. The brochure's recounting of Martha's experience gives the impression that after having confessed her sins to Jehovah and evidently been forgiven by him, she returned to the meetings and was welcomed back with open arms. Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey? We both know "return to Jehovah" means "return to the WTS", don't we.