moggy

It is difficult to be simplistic when answering your question because the word, especially in the hands of Paul's epistolary injunctions, has been invested with a nobility that is not seen among other words that connect with biblical salvation. Indeed, were we to remove this word from the NT, there would be no Christianity. We need not indulge in a detailed word study of this term, since the Watchtower itself has seen no need to do so, but suffice it to say that: 1The original Greek word is χαρις - charis - and it occurs 155 times in the New Testament 2. Because of its recurrent usage in various contexts, there is no single way in which we can translate the term 3. Indeed the RNWT translates it 15 different ways [among them: Favour- Lu 1:30, Gracious - Lu 4:22, Undeserved Favour - 1 Peter 3:7 etc] 4. Every translation is compelled to do the same thing. My own Bible of choice - The NASV - translates the word twelve separate ways. The reason for this multiplicity of translations is because the original word - χαρις - meant, from the fifth century BC, anything that affords "joy, pleasure, delight" from whence various meanings developed, including grace [as in poise] favour, gratitude, thankfulness, and kindness, among others. While it is true that many of these meanings in non-biblical literature are found in the NT, it is only when we are confronted with the way Paul wields this majestic word, that we enter into a world endowed with utterly indescribable gravitas and splendour. He uses it no less that 107 times [69% of the time] very often to define in human terms that which is indefinable. When you confront this word as powered by the Holy Spirit, which was in Paul, you realize that you are gazing into the very chasm of infinity, because Paul uses this word for our very God, and the Saviour, Himself. Now to answer your question: What did John mean when he used the word twice at Jo 1:16:: "We all received from his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness" Apart from an unfortunate woodenness of expression, is the RNWT, the best way to translate this verse? Although it it is certainly not wrong, I believe it is not. First of ll, it can give a misleading impression, that the word, in Christian terminology, has something to do with being "undeserved". Reading Paul, we can't help but believe that it is not that we are undeserving of God's kindness, but that we simply do not merit it in the first place. We can never earn God's χαρις, because if we could, χαρις would no longer be χαρις.[Ro 11:6] Thus it is through this enduring quality of Divine favour that that which is unmerited is conveyed to believers. I feel "unmerited favour", if one is to "open" the word "Grace", is better. I would prefer, however, to dignify "Grace" with a Christian immortality, as others have done. It is the single best way to have a word-for-word alternative for the Greek and English. Whether the RNWT translation is better than this, "From His abundance we have received more and more grace" [Modern Language Bible] I leave to the reader.

I was taking into account a possible Watchtower explanation which reduces "standing before the throne" to a metaphor, and which sees this Great Crowd actually being on earth even now, and after the GT, as survivors. My submission acknowledged the possibility of a Watchtower interpretation without actually commenting on the veracity or otherwise of such a view. I leave the Watchtower followers to do that. The text at Rev 7 does not actually specify whether this Great Crowd are survivors or martyrs. A certain element of interpretation is required, as long as this interpretation keeps the integrity of the text in balance. I then explained my own preferred view which showed, unambiguously, I hope, that "coming out" of the GT, clearly meant being martyred for the cause of Christ on earth during the Great Tribulation, and a translating to heaven, to be before the throne in a very real sense The actual survivors, are those of humanity who are alive at this time and who are blessed with entry into a post apocalyptic earth, to renew and repopulate it. I believe that True Christians will be "caught up" to be with the Lord before the outbreak of the Great Tribulation - 1 Thess 4:17 I had to restrict my allusions to what I considered points that did not detract from the subject of the post and which was explaining the identity of the Great Crowd. I hope that clarifies any ambiguity on my part.

This is indeed a fascinating subject to ponder, and it involves, I believe an understanding of three basic elements of exegesis. 1. Who actually are the Great Crowd? Are they synonymous with any other group, such as the "other sheep" that Jesus mentioned at Jo 10:16? Personally, I believe this to be highly unlikely, partly because of the way that Jesus referred to these "other sheep". He said:"I have other sheep..." To me, the use of the present tense indicates, that whatever Jesus meant by this expression, he was indicating that these were in existence in the first century when He and His contemporaries were alive. If Jesus had said, "I will have other sheep..." He would then be anticipating a future appearance of this group. 1.The timing of the Great Crowd. The Great Crowd, however are restricted to an association with something that Rev 7:14 calls The Great Tribulation, which is understood by many to be an eschatological cataclysm of biblical proportions, and which has not occurred yet. So whenever this Great Tribulation occurs in the future, then, and only then, will this Great Crowd emerge as an identifiable group. 3. What does "come out" of the Great tribulation mean? This is probably the most perplexing aspect in our exegesis. Does it mean they "survive" the GT alive, or does it mean that they are "martyred" at this time and are rewarded with heavenly life in the very presence of God as a consequence? Unfortunately there is no pat or even simplistic answer. We all stand before the Word of God as ourselves in pursuit of scriptural certainties, but which may prove to be more elusive than any dogmatism allows. Thus, while we ponder its meanings, we must allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten and clarify. Since the Bible does not make itself absolutely clear, the answer lies in interpreting its allusions. And here again, there are a multiplicity of these, because, after all, we are now seeing in a mirror only hazily. [1 Cor 13:10] I believe that has been done deliberately so that we may learn from each other and tolerate dissent with grace and charity. My own personal view, for what its worth, is one that is held by those who are referred to as "Dispensationalists",and is that the future GT will indeed have survivors, millions and ,millions and even billions of them. These will be the despised, downtrodden, marginalized, exploited, intimidated,and tyrannized, all of whom are believers and who became such during the GT and thus are innocent. They will enter the post Armageddon earth, to begin anew, although not yet given eternal life. They are in contrast to the proud, tyrannical, and oppressive, who will be done away with. The Great Crowd, however are believers in Christ who, during this time, are martyred for their integrity and who, as a consequence are said to have washed their robes in the "blood of the Lamb". They are rewarded with eternal life in God's presence. It is for this reason that an oft-quoted epithet, "Tribulation Saints", is used of them. Just thinking allowed.

As HollyW has pointed out, this has not always been the Watchtower's position. Over the past one hundred and twenty one years of its existence, the Watchtower has argued, sometimes more persuasively than at others, for different identifications for the Man with the Inkhorn. This current identification is probably the most intelligent identification they have made yet. Such can be true only because the Watchtower have pushed this identification into the future rather than having the identification run contemporaneously with the living. When any prophetic identification is made within a present tense existence, the viability of that prophetic conclusion becomes untenable at some point. The Watchtower Leadership have learned their lesson in this regard, and consequently they have revised many of their previously held prophetic ideals into the future. Such as the Sheep and the Goats division, of Matthew 25. For instance, the original identity for this prophetic figure of the man with the inkhorn, was the founder of the Watchtower movement, CT Russell, a man much admired by those who knew him. So it seemed like a good idea at the time. By 1931, however when Russell had been dead for a decade and a half, this identification appeared irrelevant since a new growing generation of converts to the Watchtower Movement were ignorant of who Russell was. Hence a change of identity in that year. This brings us to the case in point. If anyone had in mind a future identification for the Man with the Inkhorn, it would have been Ezekiel himself, and unfortunately for prophecy buffs, he did not say anything along those lines. Ultimately then, I believe that the best position is to be like Ezekiel, and be silent when attempting to make any such identification. Just Thinking Allowed

Thank you for that excellent piece of research, Holly W. The math does not really stack up, objectively at least, no matter how much the Watchtower writers gainsay their approach to this subject. For instance, I presume their use of the expression "Professed Christians" is designed to militate against any imbalance in the numbers when aligned with modern day figures. But what exactly is a "professed" Christian? It is my understanding that the anonymous writers of Watchtower literature often refer to persons of authority within the Movement who professes to be of the anointed. So what then is a "professed anointed Christian" within the fellowship of the Watchtower? Just thinking allowed.