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  1. Church ‘shuns‘ 15-year-old, then father – ends up in court Posted by SDD Contributor on November 9, 2019 at 4:20 am The Supreme Court of Canada heard arguments Thursday in a lawsuit against a religious congregation’s “shunning” practice, but the congregation and several other groups contend the justices had no right to even take part in the case. Randy Wall, a real estate agent, filed the suit against the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary, Alberta. Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued an appeals process through the Jehovah’s Witnesses then went to court because he said the Witnesses’ “shunning” — the practice of not associating with him in any way — hurt his business. He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.” A lower court opinion said: “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.” The “distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said. Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.” During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to rule that religious congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system. The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining whether or not such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party. The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction. A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that Canada’s courts should not be involved. The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing: “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.” Previous case law has confirmed the right of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member. But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question centers on property or civil rights. The Association for Reformed Political Action described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.” It contends the court should keep its hands off the argument. “Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.” John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said: “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.” He continued: “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.” The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the case was about more than ecclesiastical rules. “Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.” The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.” The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged. “Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”
  2. OK, I've sort of shot myself in the foot by saying I'm now going to take this forum as a joke and have a laugh. In most ways i will continue to do so BUT. This evening I was given some information that 1.maybe I shouldn't have been given. 2. Maybe i wish i hadn't been given. Some of you may say I'm telling lies. Some of you may say I'm just after attention. Some may say I'm just trying to put down the JW Org. However i have to think on something i say a lot. DUTY OF CARE. Care of everyone, in or out of that JW Org. I have been given this information :- Somewhere between 18 months to 2 years ago, a young man that is a member of Honiton Congregation (my ex congregation) committed a sexual offence against a young girl that would have been around 7 or 8 years old at that time.. The young man was visiting the home of this child and he went up to the girl's bedroom and asked the girl to have sex with him. I do not think that sexual intercourse took place but from the information that I've been given, he laid her on the bed and got on top of her and 'humped' her as if he were having sexual intercourse with her. The incident was reported to the Elders and the police were not informed. I have no idea what action the Elders took but the congregation were not informed. The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, but his mental age is lower. He is a bit slow in learning things and possibly has mental disorders. That is not meant as an insult, but i do know this young man personally and he does act a bit strange sometimes and frightens people. The young man's father was a single dad of three children ( i knew this man quite well ), but he invited a foreign lady (a sister in the JW Org) over to the UK, and they married. The marriage did not go well as the woman wanted to 'be the boss'. They split up and she went back to her country of origin. But then she came back to have a 'second try' at the marriage. I do not know the marriage situation at this time. However the whole issue would have been totally upsetting for the three children, especially for this young man that found it difficult to cope with some situations. The person that gave me this information, in my opinion, is completely trustworthy, and once again in my opinion, would not have any reason for making up a 'story'. As I was given the young man's name, and i know the young man and his father, it all seems quite genuine to me. Now i come back to the duty of care. For, in my opinion, it is the duty of anyone that has any information concerning child abuse to report it to the police. This could be just a one off incident, but it could be the start of a young man becoming a pedophile. I honestly don't know where my duty is here. The young girl that was the victim of this assault may need help getting over the situation. The information was also that the father of the victim does not want 'any trouble'. Hence he did not want the police involved. That helped the Elders to keep it secret, well almost. Now this young man may commit sexual assault again, within the JW congregation or outside of it. And that young lady will be in fear of him and yet still have to attend that Kingdom hall where she will see him every week. So should i report what i have been told to the police or not ? Of course I would have to tell the police it is only third hand information. BUT, if the police could get hold of the 'records' / paperwork from the Kingdom hall regarding the incident, then it would be proved as true. I do not expect that the Elders would willingly hand over paperwork, so I've no idea how it would work out in the end. But it's my actions that I'm concerned about here , my responsabilites. What should i do ?
  3. some quotes from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009288 (my emphasis and enumeration) If, then, the clergy-laity distinction is not based on the model set by Jesus’ apostles and other early Christians, does that make it wrong? According to the Bible, yes. All you are brothers.”—Matthew 23:8. 1. God’s Word tells us that all Christians serve as God’s ministers and that none is above or beneath the other. (2 Corinthians 3:5, 6) 2. Spiritually older men did, of course, serve as overseers, which included being shepherds and teachers. (Acts 20:28) However, these men were not paid clerics. 3. For the most part, they were ordinary working men—husbands and fathers. Moreover, they qualified to serve as overseers, not by attending religious seminaries, but by being diligent students of God’s Word and by cultivating the spiritual qualities required by God. 4. As for ministering within the congregation, Christian men in general are encouraged to reach out for that privilege, which is the custom among Jehovah’s Witnesses.—1 Timothy 3:1. 5. The clergy-laity distinction exalts the clergy class, an evidence being adulatory religious titles. Yet, Jesus said: “He that conducts himself as a lesser one among all of you is the one that is great.” (Luke 9:48) In harmony with that spirit of humility, he told his followers not to adopt religious titles.—Matthew 23:8-12. 2.-1. A paid clergy class can impose a heavy financial burden on the laity, especially when the former have lavish lifestyles. Christian overseers, on the other hand, care for their financial needs by doing normal secular work, thus setting a good example for others.*—Acts 18:1-3; 20:33, 34; 2 Thessalonians 3:7-10. 2.-2. Because a clergyman may depend on others for financial support, he might be tempted to dilute the Bible’s message in order to please parishioners. Indeed, the Scriptures foretold that this very thing would occur. 6. The clergy-laity distinction tends to cause lay people to relegate religion to the clergy, while the laity just turn up for weekly services. Yet, all Christians must be conscious of their spiritual need and be good students of the Bible.—Matthew 4:4; 5:3. 7. When the laity are Biblically uninformed, they can easily be misled by clerics, even exploited by them. Indeed, history contains many examples of such abuses.*—Acts 20:29, 30. In order to adhere closely to the pattern set down in the Bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses have, not a clergy class, but unpaid spiritual shepherds and teachers who willingly minister to God’s flock. What is wrong here? How with intentions and practice inside WT JWorg? Intentions are looking good, theoretically. But, in practice, phrase 1. none is above or beneath the other is not fully correct, or it is not correct at all. Because, 2. Spiritually older men did, of course, serve as overseers, which included being shepherds and teachers. By this explanation, this men are in, are putted in position to be above other people who are not enough "spiritually older", what ever that could mean to be "older". In fact this phrase "spiritually older" means that such men, male (not any female, god save you from female spiritually older person :))))), are ordained and appointed by Management Structure (In past WT Headquarter made approval, today CO doing this, formally, but Who are involved, in fact, in this process is "heavenly secret", i guess, haha) Move ahead with 2. these men were not paid clerics. 2.-1. A paid clergy class can impose a heavy financial burden on the laity 2.-2. Because a clergyman may depend on others for financial support, he might be tempted to dilute the Bible’s. What's wrong with these statements? This is Half truth. Major elder class worldwide who are in congregations are not paid for ministry. They are half ammeters and half professionals, it depends on their experience and how deep and honest they personally are as Christians and as Persons. Other "appointed" servants are depends on other people money. They get financial support in many various forms. In money or in kind. So, yes they get paid for work they doing. And they depend on others for financial support. They receives some money, and they have sort of free Medical care and guess some Insurance and Pension fund. Many JW people working in Betel's are not "clergy" but have status of Elders, Ministerial Servants, Full Time Servants, CO-s, etc, they gave Oath to Poverty, and other similar stuffs unknown to Public. By Donation money JW members supporting, not only publishing magazines and publications and books, but Works aka Life of all others JW people who are involved in many and various Organizational Programs (Missioner activity, Building KH that belongs to Society not to congregants, Lawyers and Lawyers Firms that are Witnesses or non-Witnesses, for Court cases of all kind etc.) By that JW have paid classes of people who working In The Company. 3. serve as overseers, not by attending religious seminaries, Here we have another incorrect claim. Elders are invited and participated in "religious seminaries" prepared, arranged and guided by WT Society. They get instructions, advice's, new information's, etc. on how to run The Program inside Congregations. 4. Christian men in general are encouraged to reach out for that privilege, which is the custom among Jehovah’s Witnesses Here is one interesting thing i put just for emphasis question of Customs, Traditions and Folklore. All people, no matter of who they are, have this things. So, JW people are also under this influences. Good or bad, that is another question to discus. 5. not to adopt religious titles. WT Corporation has many Titles for people who are inside: Rank and File, Brother. Sister, Publisher, Unbaptized Publisher, Regular Pioneer, Auxiliary Pioneer, Special Pioneer, Missioner, Ministerial Servant, Elder, Overseer, Circuit Overseer, Secretary, Treasurer, Betel Member, International Servant or Volunteer, Construction Servant, Helper, Governing Body member, Anointed, etc. So, WT JWorg are not so different with titles for those who are inside Organization. 6. The clergy-laity distinction tends to cause lay people to relegate religion to the clergy, while the laity just turn up for weekly services. Because those "In Charge" aka elders are only one who are delegate by WT to give shepherding and teaching to the "flock" aka laity, that can cause relegate syndrome for laity aka rank and file members in JW congregation to be submissive to elders class in/to such measure to visit Sunday Church Meetings as all other religious people who come to meetings for Social Reasons. 7. When the laity are Biblically uninformed, they can easily be misled by clerics, even exploited by them. This is what take place in many issues in JW life and service. Take for example publication as "Shepherd book" or some other Internal memos coming from WT Headquarter to elders. If spiritual food in this documents are something based on Bible and are released to improve Congregation and Christian life and ministry, What can be reason for secrecy? Why only elders can see what was written there? That is clear evidence how exists Clergy-Laity distinction inside JWorg. What can be reason to not provide to members information's about content of such "only for Elders eye book"? Examples from Bible show how elders and all other members must follow "Bible principles". One of significant bible principles is that "Judicial things" must be free and open to all who want to know, who are involved, and those who are not involved in "case". "Investigation and Judging" must be in public place, beside city gates "Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace". Why in public? Think about reasons for that. Existence of "secret books and memos only for elders eyes" contribute to Elders-Laity class distinction" among JWorg. Is there something in this book that rank and file member will understand wrongly, or will be unable to understand rightly ?? :))) Beside these what was said, think about why Elders call for "clergy privilege" when Judge on Court ask them to reveal things about something what took place inside JW members. And based on this Elders refuse to answer questions on Court. How that can be, JW elders are not nominally "Clergy" but acting as normal "Clergy" in full measure. Well, some of clergy inside JWorg are not paid for service, and some are paid for service. Distinction existing.

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