Jump to content

Jack Ryan

1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

Jack Ryan -
Srecko Sostar -
224
9594

Top Posters


Recommended Posts


Yes Jay that is what we stated back then. Did you have a specific question about that year in particular?

In the meantime here is the information from the wiki:

1975 C.E. Watchtower Publications
Yeartext: “I will say to Jehovah: ‘You are my refuge and my stronghold.’”—Ps. 91:2.
"Divine Sovereignty" District Assemblies held in the United States, Canada, British Isles, Chile, Greece, El Salvador, and Portugal. [1,880,713 publishers with 207 countries reporting in 1974, 13.5% increase over the 1973 service year, 34,576 congregations.] see w75 vol., pgs. 24-27.

Yearbook

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

gc * Is There a God Who Cares?
ml * There Is Much More to Life!
og * One World, One Government, Under God’s Sovereignty
    Hello guest!

Kingdom News #20 - Would You Welcome Some Good News?
Kingdom News #21 - Your Future - Shaky or Secure?

February 1975 - Time in Which We Are Now Interested - Talk by Frederick W. Franz

Talks from 1975

"Hope" does not equal "prediction" of 1975 as some opposers try to claim.

Frederick W. Franz and September 5, 1975

A perfect answer for ridiculers

A 1968 BBC Interview of a Bethel representative about 1975

"Hope vs. Prediction"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's recap... 

"Does God's rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the "time of the end"." Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20 

"It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!" .. Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah's witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that." Watchtower 1966 Oct 15 pp.629,631 

"Well now, as Jehovah's Witnesses, as runners, even though some of us have become a little weary, it almost seems as though Jehovah has provided meat in due season. Because he's held up before all of us, a new goal. A new year. Something to reach out for and it just seems it has given all of us so much more energy and power in this final burst of speed to the finish line. And that's the year 1975. Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then. As one brother put it, "Stay alive to Seventy-Five"" - 1967 District Convention, Wisconsin Sheboygan District Overseer Brother Charles Sunutko

"The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end.Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfillment." Watchtower 1968 May 1 p.272

"With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man's existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. ... Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility ." Watchtower 1980 Mar 15 p.17

aVM7FeFdq6P5UgCWSTvws0-hZcrJSj1_xG0jdXfu-Ps.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and for the pièce de ré·sis·tance:

"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world,' even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?...Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is always a reason, why some things are happening, even when we do not understand that. 

 


even there is a reason why this FORUM keeps "running" even though we do not understand why or why so many languages in this forum.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   An anniversary or a birth date is not a prophecy unless someone makes it into one. And we can certainly see why someone may come to the conclusion that the doctor was right about the "due date" but the baby may still be "delayed" after that date. There is nothing wrong with being prepared for its birth on the due date. You don't stop waiting after that date do you as if the baby is no longer coming? 1975 was a time marker marking 6,000 years from Adam's creation. That due date was known. Eve's creation was obviously long after that since Adam said when she arrived "this is AT LAST bone of my bones". So a long time had elapsed from Adam' viewpoint. Interestingly Eve's date was also KNOWN - therefore the "day and hour that is unknown is not dependent on these time markers since the angels were all present for both events. Since the Great Tribulation is not a moment in time but a period of time could the day and hour that the angels do not know be the "BEGINNING of the great tribulation" {the attack on religion} rather than the end of it which would be Armageddon? This is my "opinion". {Whether Eve's creation was or was not the end of that creative day is not the point as the angels would know when that was since they were present either way}. {In case no one has noticed MOST of the time the Watchtower Society has mentioned the day and hour it has referenced the "Beginning" of the GT not just Armageddon since our understanding now is a period of time to elapse as in a "first phase and second phase" to the GT}. :D

   As for brothers selling things to simplify your life for greater service to God is very commendable as my family did in 1975 and before likewise and we benefited from that decision with increased spirituality and awareness of our place in the stream of time {sense of urgency}. Of course everyone is different and some will inevitably take things to far. Again that is their "opinion" or "choice". No one forced my family or others to simplify their lives. But the Bible clearly shows that is a proper thing to do in this system no matter how long we have to wait for the final end. Live as tho the end is coming tomorrow but plan as if it is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

"Beware, my brothers. In the last days there will be false apostates among you."

Oh it's just vomit dog being bored. And like a naughty bored child he's looking for attention through engaging in outrageous behaviour. This of course will get him the wrong kind of attention because as soon as @The Librarianreturns from sipping Margaritas by the pool, he will find himself out on his rear, I mean ear. For now, he is just collecting more negative points....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Anna said:

This of course will get him the wrong kind of attention because as soon as @The Librarianreturns from sipping Margaritas by the pool, he will find himself out on his rear, I mean ear.

I have never known her to return from sipping Margaritas by the pool. Somebody will have to fetch her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides, everyone gets a free 'end of the world' card per lifetime. It is like a 'Get out of Jail Free' card. You don't whine when your opponent draws one. It's how the game is played.

Once a lifetime is within acceptable limits for tolerance if you truly are doing what Jesus said to 'keep on the watch.'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A quote from the past.

Did the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses Ever Say That Armageddon Was Definitely Going to Come In 1975?

1975.jpg

It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975. Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying:

"The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635

You will notice that this appeared in the Watchtower at the end of 1974 and it was referring to what all Witnesses heard at their conventions that summer. So the facts are that anyone who was saying that Armageddon was definitely going to come by 1975 just was not listening carefully. They were doing what critics still do; rip statements out of context and selectively choose only what they want out of the literature.

I was baptized in 1966 so I was there in 1975 and it had absolutely no effect on me nor anyone in my very large family. The reason that it had no effect on 99.9% of Witnesses is because most were listening to what was really being said and not speculating. They were NOT saying that the end would come in 1975.

The truth is that from the start of discussions on 1975, JWs were told not to speculate on what may or may not happen. For some, it was a real test as to why they were JWs. Was it because of a date to save their necks or were they JWs because they loved and appreciated the Truth and Jehovah?


The year 1975 can be calculated from the prophecies in Daniel and confirmed by the events foretold by Christ. This interpretation is in complete agreement with standard rules of exegesis. So the Witnesses’ teaching on 1975 and our being in the “end times” of wicked human society is completely scriptural.

What was said by Witnesses in the ‘60's and ‘70's is still true: the end is still near and we should live our lives performing “holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah” (2Pet.3:11,12).

From 1914 onward, ALL the facets of the "sign" denoting the “end times” have escalated to an unprecedented degree worldwide (Mt.24:3ff). No other time in history has seen all these things come on one generation in such overwhelming measure. Combining this with the Bible chronology’s pointing to 1975 being about 6,000 years since man’s creation proves beyond any doubt that the world has entered its time of the end!

 There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

JWs didn't get the 1975 theory out of thin air

Sorry mate! I do believe they did! Or do you think that those who take the lead in shepherding the flock are not JWs?

We are 42 years down the line here.

It's equivalent to brothers in 1967 still harping on about the "princes" not coming back in 1925! Oh sorry, there are still people harping on about that now and that was 92 years ago!

I was there in 1975 and I knew then a lot of people who were there in 1925. We had 11 anointed in the congregation, 5 of them dedicated prior to 1914.

I never heard one of them gripe over dates or disappointment, but all of them expected the great tribulation "tomorrow". They have all gone now, but they were faifhful to their end.

I just fail to see an issue with excitement over the slightest possibility, imagined or otherwise, that the end of this system could be upon us. In fact, surely in harmony with the topic, that is one of the things a person has to do to survive Armageddon?

Speaking of the impending time of judgement in Habbakuk's time, Jehovah clearly stated: "Keep in expectation of it!" Hab 2:3

"Shepherding the flock" ? Huh! More like "herding cats"!

 

Herding cats.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1975 was and is a forcing, as it was a forcing in 1925 and it is a forcing even another date that I can not mention otherwise someone will shout "Blaspheme!".
1975 should not be calculated by Daniel or even by other biblical books.
However, the very important event to keep an eye was (and is) the suppression of the constant sacrifice by the king of the north (Russia).

Obviously we can not know if what happened on April 20, 2017 is really the event described in the Bible (there have been other "suppression" in Russia) but it is clear that we must pay attention.

From the suppression of the continuous sacrifice up to Armageddon, it is at most a certain number of years but be careful: I am not saying that you will know the exact day and hour - Matthew 24:36

If the beginning of the suppression is what happened in Russia on 20 April 2017, we will only understand if the preaching work will be banned in all the colonies of the former Soviet Union (before) and then in the rest of the world.
And of course, the war between the southern king and the king of the north must also burst.
And he must win the king of the north.

Be careful not to be terrified because these things have to happen but it is not yet the end.

However, from the suppression of the constant sacrifice to the Armageddon War, they go no more than 13 years (maybe less, but not more).

How do you know this without colliding with Matthew 24:36?
Pay attention to prophecy

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

One work in progress at that time was Herbert W Armstrong. One of his works from 1956 accumulated to his booklet of 1975 prophecy. His magazine, “good news” spoke about Armageddon in our lifetime. That magazine was published in July 1975.

So, this idea that 1975 only came from the Watchtower, lacks facts and vision….

[I'm repeating here a post which is a response I just made to this claim about Armstrong, as it was moved to a new topic:]

And, don't forget that, in 1956, Herbert W Armstrong supposedly stole the idea from the February 1, 1955 Watchtower, which put the end of 6,000 years within one year of 1976:

*** w55 2/1 p. 95 Questions From Readers ***

  • In 1953 in preparing the chart that appears in the book “New Heavens and a New Earth” a one-year error was brought to light. By the aid of the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the difference between the two numbers appearing at Genesis 7:6 and Genesis 7:11 became apparent, especially since there are two different Hebrew words here maintaining a distinct difference. At Genesis 7:6 the number 600 referring to Noah’s age means 600 full years, being what is generally termed a cardinal number. Whereas at Genesis 7:11 the number “600th,” an ordinal number, means 599 full years plus a portion of another year. . . .  Inasmuch as previously our chronology considered Noah as 600 full years old when he entered the ark, instead of the actual 599 years and some months, as we now see, this has meant that the preflood dates must be shrunk by one year, this bringing Adam’s creation for the fall of 4025 B.C. Incidentally, Jesus, who became the second or “last Adam,” was born in the fall of the year around the first of October.—1 Cor. 15:45, NW.
  • It is well to understand that all Bible chronology dates for events prior to 539 B.C. must be figured backward from the Absolute date of 539 B.C. In the sure date of 607 B.C. for the fall of Jerusalem we have an anchor for the chronology establishment of the important year of 1914. By an overwhelming number of physical facts occurring since 1914, this great turning-point year in man’s history, 1914, has been abundantly confirmed.
  • According to Genesis 1:24-31 Adam was created during the last part of the sixth creative-day period of 7,000 years. Almost all independent chronologists assume incorrectly that, as soon as Adam was created, then began Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period of the creative week. Such then figure that from Adam’s creation, now thought to be the fall of 4025 B.C., why, six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began. . . .
  • The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date.

Of course, just a decade or so later, the Watchtower began minimizing the amount of time it would have taken for a perfect man to name all the animals if Jehovah brought them to him in a steady stream. The flaw in this reasoning was that angels would surely know that amount of time that Jehovah had kept a secret, so they would be aware of the day and the hour "when 6,000 years of Jehovah's present rest day come to an end."

There is also evidence that Fred W. Franz, who wrote the article above, in 1955, began recalculating in the early 1970's and wanted to begin publishing October 1974 as the date for the end of the 6,000 years of human history. F.W.Franz, I am told, thought this would have strengthened the 1975 argument. But this was supposedly one of the few times when N.Knorr put his foot down and told him he had caused enough trouble with 1975, and that Knorr thought that this vacillation would actually weaken the faith that people put in the Watchtower.

You probably already know this, but to your point, many Witnesses had to be counseled not to listen to Armstrong's radio program, especially in the late 1960's and early 1970's when many Witnesses claimed that he sounded exactly like the Watchtower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@DefenderOTT

I know that you have already said (elsewhere) that you were not the originator of much of the post you offered above. Just to help clarify what you are saying, I noticed that the first four paragraphs are exactly what can be seen from a person who wrote this on YAHOO ANSWERS about 6 years ago.

    Hello guest!
Those are the 4 paragraphs that start and then end as follows:

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975.

. . . . They were NOT saying that the end would come in 1975.

Then you apparently added your own words in the fifth paragraph above:

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

The truth is that from the start of discussions on 1975, JWs were told not to speculate on what may or may not happen. For some, it was a real test as to why they were JWs. Was it because of a date to save their necks or were they JWs because they loved and appreciated the Truth and Jehovah?

Then it appears that you went back to quoting YAHOO ANSWERS, quoting the next three paragraphs, which started and ended, thus:

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

The year 1975 can be calculated from the prophecies in Daniel and confirmed by the events foretold by Christ. . . . .  Combining this with the Bible chronology’s pointing to 1975 being about 6,000 years since man’s creation proves beyond any doubt that the world has entered its time of the end!

Then apparently you added your own words again to finish up the discussion.

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world....

I only went to the trouble of mentioning all this because I would like to respond at some point to those claims from YAHOO ANSWERS.

For reference, here is the remaining part of the quote that was found on YAHOO ANSWERS. Although it's mostly wrong, it's also partly correct, and it's well written, and I expect that the points will come up from time to time:

Quote

Those who question this fact are like a woman in her ninth month questioning whether she is pregnant!!

True Christians continue to “put spiritual things first” and place material things as less important. And when Christians make a decision to give up some material things they don’t later complain and blame others because they may not have some benefits that others have.

The accusation that Jehovah's Witnesses have claimed to be inspired prophets or have tried to foretell the future is absolutely false and a misrepresentation.

The flat-out truth is that the Watchtower Society has NEVER claimed to give prophesies, to be inspired or to be infallible. These accusations are deceptive because they blatantly rip the Watchtower's words out of context.

Notice this sentence in the "Purpose" statement that appeared in EVERY issue of the Watchtower up to the mid- 70's: ***"No, The Watchtower is no inspired prophet, but it follows and explains a Book of prophecy..."***

"Since today we have the complete inspired Scriptures, God is not giving any more inspired visions or dreams. However, Jehovah's people today are seeing the fulfillment of many of the inspired visions and dreams that God's servants had in ancient times...Not that these prophesy in the sense of foretelling events under inspiration, but rather in that they are making public proclamation of the inspired dreams and visions long ago recorded."--Watchtower, 1 January 1971,

There are scores of similar Watchtower quotes that go back to the 1800's.

Neither Russell, the Watchtower nor any JW's has EVER claimed to give prophecies nor to be inspired. They never claimed infallibility in their teachings.

The early Witnesses did not "predict" anything, they simply delved into the Bible trying to see how prophecies already recorded in the Bible were going to be fulfilled. Sometimes their understandings were a little off and they willingly corrected them.

Sincerely,

BAR-ANERGES

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I know that you have already said (elsewhere) that you were not the originator of much of the post you offered above. Just to help clarify what you are saying, I noticed that the first four paragraphs are exactly what can be seen from a person who wrote this on YAHOO ANSWERS about 6 years ago.

    Hello guest!
Those are the 4 paragraphs that start and then end as follows:

Sorry Mate!

Your way off with your declaration. I didn't get the *quote* from there or alter the quote in any way, shape or form. I will not engage in personal theories that continue to gain support by the lack of facts by modern speculation, Sorry!!!

1975 article.jpg

1975 article2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

Your way off with your declaration. I didn't get the *quote* from there or alter the quote in any way, shape or form. I will not engage in personal theories that continue to gain support by the lack of facts by modern speculation, Sorry!!!

LOL! Thanks for the information. Google returned this same general content that you posted in about 11 places, but after checking several of them, the ones I checked were missing the fifth paragraph and the last paragraph found on your post, which is why I assumed that you might have added both these paragraphs yourself. My apologies for the assumption that you had provided both of the extra paragraphs as your own comment. It looks to me now as if you only added the final sentence/paragraph: "There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world.... " The versions I found on YAHOO ANSWERS didn't have the missing paragraphs, but some had versions of the 10 extra paragraphs that I quoted from the longer version in the last post. These versions are each a bit different, but repeat many of the key paragraphs. Examples:

    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!
    • Hello guest!

My goal was to make sure that if I responded, I was going to be able to separate the part you wrote from the part you quoted. So thanks for helping me out on that point. Apparently, as you have now pointed out, you got your version from a place that perfectly matches

    Hello guest!

I had already glanced at that sight, but didn't inspect it because it was so quickly obvious that it was about 10 paragraphs too short to be the original answer. Anyway, the "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" blog also agrees that it came originally from YAHOO ANSWERS and from BAR-ANERGES.

Not that these differences mattered much to the point being discussed, but I thought the author (BAR-ANERGES) wrote a very good thesis to discuss under this topic, because it is a fairly complete general answer that matches much of what I myself have said to people, in defense of 1975, and what my parents and many others typically say. So I thought it would be good to address all of it. (Along with anything you might have said in defense of it.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have not made it a secret that I think we are currently hurtling toward the same problem we created for ourselves in the 1970's. Therefore, I think it's very important that we don't forget this part of our history, as we can learn from it. I think we learn just as much from the defensive attempts, like the one on "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" linked above. In fact, I think the mistakes made back in the 1960's and early 1970's with respect to 1975 were very trivial compared to the lessons we can learn about our own egos, our pride and our honesty. Honesty is a form of faithfulness, and that's the only reason that this discussion might still be important to some of us today.

Are you in anyway suggesting that BAR-ANERGES was not telling the truth? if so, were you there, I was, and I agree with his conclusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear AB

Couldn’t agree with you more. Those, that speculated in 1975 thought it was a fact which worked against their ego by hysteria. The organization didn’t fuel it, ego did. There's no reason to rehash assumptions with speculation. Otherwise, we start new with the same old thing. Putting the trust on those that believe speculation is an honest assessment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have not made it a secret that I think we are currently hurtling toward the same problem we created for ourselves in the 1970's. Therefore, I think it's very important that we don't forget this part of our history, as we can learn from it. I think we learn just as much from the defensive attempts, like the one on "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" linked above. In fact, I think the mistakes made back in the 1960's and early 1970's with respect to 1975 were very trivial compared to the lessons we can learn about our own egos, our pride and our honesty. Honesty is a form of faithfulness, and that's the only reason that this discussion might still be important to some of us today.

 

Dear JW Insider,
reading your comments I understand that you are a reflective and intellectually honest person.
If the people of God had "learned something" from past mistakes, it would be normal to debate the doctrines and prophecies in the light of the Scriptures.

If the people of God had learned anything, it would be normal for public conversations now to be done and also questioning the one who is not yet "faithful and discreet slave" (as admit Watchtower of 2013).

If we had learned something we would understand that we should study the Bible personally and this includes the possibility of finding something that goes against the official intent.

Obviously, if we had learned something.

Instead, if you try to get something back, anything, you're an apostate.
You do not get into the merit.
It does not matter if the arguments support the Bible; you are an apostate and just because you are going to rediscover the intent of the "NOT faithful and discreet slave".

Do you believe, honestly, that past history is served to something?

The people of God, exactly like in the past, are destined to repeat the same mistakes because the words of GB are more important than the words of the Bible.
Pay attention to prophecies.

If you can not understand the Word of God, it means the Bible lie - Proverbs 2: 1-5
I urge you personally to be certain of these things - 2 Corinthians 13: 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Outsider said:

Excellent. I have always told my friends this cult is driven by the devil. You ex-witnesses have it right. I'm letting all my friends know to visit this excellent website, to learn to defend themselves when they come knocking at the door. They should use their literature against them like you guys use it here, with scripture an all. I have, and they stopped coming, thanks guys for the excellent use of scripture to expose this cult. Keep it up, keep spreading the word.

Irony sharpens irony.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

Putting the trust on those that believe speculation is an honest assessment

I think it's quite obvious that those of the FDS who speculated on this, and originated the idea of 1975,  believed their speculation was an honest assessment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 I think we are currently hurtling toward the same problem we created for ourselves in the 1970's.

Do you have something specific in mind, perhaps to do with the overlapping generation, or something more general?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 it's very important that we don't forget this part of our history, as we can learn from it

Was this perhaps the reason for the convention video?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Anna said:
19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 I think we are currently hurtling toward the same problem we created for ourselves in the 1970's.

Do you have something specific in mind, perhaps to do with the overlapping generation, or something more general?

Yes, the primary, specific driver of the problem is the fact that Brother Splane has already pointed out the fact that "GROUP 2" are getting "up there" in years, and he pointed to specific people as examples, showing how many of the prime examples from "GROUP 2" have already died. But while this is the driver there are, yes, I think there are a few more general items that combine and catalyze to provide the fuel for the transmission of this vehicle.

One of those general items is a subtle attempt to "herd the cats" back into a more well-defined pen again. The idea of obeying what we might not understand has now been implicitly repeated at least three times recently in various contexts. In 1966, when the first problem started, we were as a group, even more united in thinking than we were in 1925 when some brothers sold their property and created financial issues for themselves. Not everyone, of course, but thousands were just as united in thought as in 1914 when people were pretty much counting down to the very month and day on their countdown cards to October 1, 1914. Many at that time sold property and even bought life insurance policies to provide for their "non-Russellite" relatives when they would be taken. The difference was that, around 1975, we weren't looking to specific day this time, but to a short time period of just months, not years, after 1975 when the 6th creative day would run out. (Of course, brothers were only willing to wait until about December 1975 before forgetting )

65077_912404468789598_569447813907144553

The 2018 Circuit Assembly talk on using social media is another example of "herding the cats."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anna said:

I think it's quite obvious that those of the FDS who speculated on this, and originated the idea of 1975,  believed their speculation was an honest assessment.

The honest assessment was to *understand* and not allow your mind to go wild with speculation, which the FDS warned against. If you were around that time, then you would understand. I'm not willing to take the word of someone that cant, speak with clarity and truth if they experienced that moment in time.

It appears the same speculation continues with some that might have been there, but speak of it in a biased way. The good thing is, the Watchtower literature is there for everyone to comprehend and view it correctly without butting a spin in speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DefenderOTT said:

The honest assessment was to *understand* and not allow your mind to go wild with speculation, which the FDS warned against.

Their mistake was to publish their speculation in their quest for understanding, if that is what you think it was. You do not publish something like that to an audience who has been eagerly waiting, for the end, tongues hanging out, since 1914. You only publish it if you are convinced of it yourself. Otherwise you would be a foolish, not discreet slave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Anna said:

Also, there is no doubt in my mind that those of the FDS, at least Fred Franz, really believed the end would come in 1975

Don't really know first hand what F Franz believed, but I remember the talk he gave about it post '75 because I was sitting in the front row. (No notes I remember...long talk). I am sure he, like a lot of others, certainly hoped for a 1975 event.

The funny thing is there are those who were swayed about 1975 and there are those who were not. Yet both camps seem to have a problem accepting the other now. Those who were swayed seem to be a bit "once bitten, twice shy" and accuse the others of "cognitive dissonance". Those who were not swayed get a bit self-righteous and say "well I didn't fall for it, can't see how anyone else did! But then, you know what these Americans can be like....". And then there's those that weren't even there......................You know what?  "there's now't so queer as folk".

I had a shepherding call in 1973 from a couple of elders, one of whom proudly told me he had cancelled his insurances (life or endowment or something) because he was so sure the imminent end made them not worth paying for. I actually could just about afford my fare to work at the time, so his "exhortation" to simplicity rather fell on deaf ears as I actually had nothing at all left at the end of my working week as my wage at the time only covered my living expenses.

Soon after, a prominent elder from Bethel (who took my book study group) said that he was not a member of the "1975 Armageddon school of thought" because it was actually not a scriptural teaching. I had great respect for that brother at the time and was very glad to hear him say this as I was not comfortable with the view that some, (and it was only some), had over this matter. They were usually a particular type of brother (in my opinion), greeting each other at the kingdom hall, always slightly over-excitedly saying embarrassing things like "it won't be long now" as they shook my hand vigorously, often holding it with two of theirs. 

Another characteristic of some of these ones I remember was their obsessive recording of assembly talks on those little cassette recorders that many had in those days. They were always out of their seats at assemblies, fiddling with safety pins,  as they spiked the speaker wires, fighting for the plum, accessible spots on the stadium ledges, so they could get in and out in time to change tapes that often did not last long enough to get a whole talk on one side. (60 minute tapes used to get wound round the mechanism some how). Then there was the batteries running out, mid-talk! One brother, in haste, actually dropped his recorder down the side of the stadium into a narrow void where the seating structure was. He was so upset over this that it was like his Armageddon had come there and then! These brothers also indulged in swapping these recordings, often getting prized tapes of American COs giving talks at assemblies, and really stirring up the pot in a much more direct and vigorous manner than we were used to. (I think those Americans probably were responsible for the hysteria you know, apart from "Armageddon Ernie" of course).

Ah well, those were the days..."Things ain't what they used to be, and never were". (Will Rogers?)
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

I think those Americans probably were responsible for the hysteria you know, apart from "Armageddon Ernie" of course

I think you might be right! Enjoyed your post by the way :)

P.S. I think everyone heard about Armageddon Ernie in the UK, I did too!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anna said:

Their mistake was to publish their speculation in their quest for understanding, if that is what you think it was. You do not publish something like that to an audience who has been eagerly waiting, for the end, tongues hanging out, since 1914. You only publish it if you are convinced of it yourself. Otherwise you would be a foolish, not discreet slave.

Under your logic. If people were told NOT TO SPECULATE, then who are the foolish, that didn't LISTEN to the slave?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Anna said:

Once the cat is out of the bag, you can't put it back in, no matter how hard you try.

No.

But, you do not have to try, either.

People should have better things to do than chase cats.

I gave a talk about the "overlapping generations" when it was "new".

Pointed out not to ignore things like retirement plans, etc., because this overlapping stuff could easily drag on another 100 years--likely longer as medical tech advances.

Jehovah has his own time frame.

We were told to be ready at any time for the fan to be hit. We weren't told to jump the gun. As many seemed want to do.

Of course, not having been a witness back then, I cannot say about general moods and such. But I have seen many nowadays starting down the "before next decade" path. I tell them not to plan their lives around a date, and just be ready to run for the hills at any time, because the fan could be hit *tomorrow* or *one hundred years* from now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

4 minutes ago, AnonymousBrother said:

likely longer as medical tech advances.

Lol!

I've always liked what one father said to his daughter (quoted in one WT): "plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

I apologise to those who have heard me say this numerous times before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, AnonymousBrother said:

Pointed out not to ignore things like retirement plans, etc., because this overlapping stuff could easily drag on another 100 years-

Hey! Was that in the outline?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Anna said:

Hey! Was that in the outline?

It wasn't. It was an assignment to show biblical references for proper planning.

Supposed to last 6 minutes. Took about 10 (my wife is not native speaker). No one complained and the elders just said "I never thought of it that way."

Amazing what you can do with Scriptures and a little math . . .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AnonymousBrother said:

It wasn't. It was an assignment to show biblical references for proper planning.

Supposed to last 6 minutes. Took about 10 (my wife is not native speaker). No one complained and the elders just said "I never thought of it that way."

Amazing what you can do with Scriptures and a little math . . .

I don't know about you, but I have not noticed any discussions about the overlapping generation among the friends. And in my very close circle of friends, most have admitted they have not payed much attention to it, and some even say they do not believe it. Have you found anything similar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Anna said:

I don't know about you, but I have not noticed any discussions about the overlapping generation among the friends. And in my very close circle of friends, most have admitted they have not payed much attention to it, and some even say they do not believe it. Have you found anything similar?

Not here. In Asia things are more dedicated. How the "next phase" is calculated is not that important. They can mostly talk about it, but pay less attention to the details than the result: "Wait. Not time yet."

I'm moving back to the US in a couple of weeks (been in Asia 24 years). But even then, the congregation I will be attending aren't that fixated on "how" just "when" (sorta speak).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Anna said:

Once the cat is out of the bag, you can't put it back in, no matter how hard you try.

Undoubtedly, but you seem to forget *who* actually *rang* that bell when they were told not to. Before 1914, the message was that they would not see Gods day. After 1914, the message was to fulfill prophecy by preaching and teaching. By 1921, the message of *millions now living will never die* was meant for those that could apply their loyalty to Jehovah even unto death, their mortal souls would rest, until the resurrection, and judgment. All these things, have been misunderstood by many witnesses. So, the only provision in scripture is to have faith in the one he sent. Scripture is clear, while man’s thoughts aren’t.  follow in Jesus footsteps, not your own.

(Isaiah 22:12-14) In that day the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, Will call for weeping and mourning, for shaved heads and the wearing of sackcloth. 13 But instead, there is celebration and rejoicing, the killing of cattle and the slaughtering of sheep, the eating of meat and the drinking of wine. ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die.’” 14 Then Jehovah of armies revealed himself in my ears: “‘This error will not be atoned in your behalf until you people die,’ says the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies.”

(Ecclesiastes 8:14-17) There is something futile that takes place on the earth: There are righteous people who are treated as if they had acted wickedly, and there are wicked people who are treated as if they had acted righteously. I say that this too is futility. 15 So I recommended rejoicing, because there is nothing better for man under the sun than to eat and drink and rejoice; this should accompany him as he works hard during the days of his life, which the true God gives him under the sun. 16 I applied my heart to acquire wisdom and to see all the activity happening on the earth, even going without sleep day and night. 17 Then I considered all the work of the true God, and I realized that mankind cannot comprehend what happens under the sun. No matter how hard men try, they cannot comprehend it. Even if they claim that they are wise enough to know, they cannot really comprehend it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't see why. Unless all those things were spoken in riddles.

Those are the many mysteries of life. Why people do things out of impulse, rather than see things for what they really, are. God makes the rules, not man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Anna said:

"plan ahead as if

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow.

Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow. 

Smile like you’ve never cried, fight like you’ve never lost, love like you’ve never been hurt, and live like you’ll die tomorrow.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Sì, il primario, driver specifico del problema è il fatto che il fratello Splane ha già sottolineato il fatto che "gruppo 2" sono sempre "lassù" negli anni, e indicò persone specifiche come esempi, mostra come molte delle i primi esempi di "gruppo 2" sono già morti. Ma mentre questo è il driver ci sono, sì, penso che ci sono un paio di elementi generali che uniscono e catalizzano per fornire il combustibile per la trasmissione di questo veicolo.

Uno di questi elementi generali è un sottile tentativo di "radunare i gatti" di nuovo in una penna più ben definito di nuovo. L'idea di obbedire ciò che potremmo non capire ora è stato implicitamente ripetuto almeno tre volte di recente in vari contesti. Nel 1966, quando il primo problema è iniziato, eravamo come un gruppo, ancora più uniti nel pensiero di quanto lo fossimo nel 1925, quando alcuni fratelli venduto la loro proprietà e questioni finanziarie create per se stessi. Non tutti, la vita, naturalmente, ma migliaia sono stati altrettanto uniti nel pensiero, come nel 1914, quando le persone erano più o meno conto alla rovescia per il mese e il giorno molto sulle loro carte di conto alla rovescia al 1 ° ottobre, 1914. Molti in quel momento di proprietà venduti e persino comprato polizze assicurative per fornire per i loro parenti "non russellite", quando sarebbero stati presi. La differenza era che, intorno al 1975, non eravamo' t cercando di giorno specifico questa volta, ma per un breve periodo di tempo di pochi mesi, non anni, dopo il 1975, quando il 6 ° giorno creativo sarebbe esaurito. (Naturalmente, fratelli erano solo disposti ad aspettare fino a circa dicembre 1975 prima di dimenticare)

    Hello guest!

Il 2018 Assemblea Circuito discorso sull'uso dei social media è un altro esempio di "herding i gatti."

There is a story that runs on the Internet, including Facebook channels of Jehovah's Witnesses, which mentions an overseer's speech.

Obviously I can not know if it is reality or if the speech has been "inflated".
However, there is certainly something true.

He basically says something like this: "I would like to let you know how the Governing Body feels.We work close to the Governing Body and we know it.The Governing Body feels we are very close to the time of the end.

Do you know what Matthew 24:14 says? Do you know how many countries are missing to reach all the inhabited earth? Only 3 countries "

Obviously I paraphrased: these are not the exact words but this is the meaning.

It is obvious that "stretching the broth", sooner or later will come the end, is not it?

So, sooner or later, "do downtown."

The problem, however, is more serious than guess or a wrong date.

The problem is to understand if "the calculations" we make are in harmony with the scriptures or are personal, human visions.

I invite you to read Jeremiah 23: 1, 16
it is too easy and superficial to say "Those who abandoned the Truth in 1975 did not really love Jehovah."
Everyone will carry his weight and this is valid for those who have left the truth but also for those who have taught falsehood.
Indeed the Scripture says that "the masters" will receive a more severe judgment.

If all that has been written in the past was written to "our instruction," we should find similarities or at least guidelines to understand if our concept of "short time left" or "generation" is correct.
When Jesus spoke of the end of the system of things said "this generation will not pass at all" - Mark 13:30
For a moment, we forget everything that has been said about this writing (and the word "generation") and focus on the Jewish system.
There is no doubt that the Lord spake also this fact, and this is one of the reasons why certain opponents dispute the "sign of the end times."
By mentioning the armies camped and pointed stakes and many other things related to the first century (things that came true) it is clear that at least part of the sign concerned the destruction of the Jewish system, including the Temple - Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20
So we must start from the principle that the generation that would not pass, at least in the first fulfillment of this prophecy, was the generation that would see the war and the armies camped on Jerusalem or the present generation at the time of the Lord (which on balance is always the same generation).
Saying "this generation," Jesus could mean "this present day."
In any case, the times do not change, because in the words of the Lord until the destruction of Jerusalem passed less than forty years, and therefore comes in that generation - see Luke 23: 28-31
In the second case, from the time when Christians saw "the armies camped" spent three and a half years.
We can assume, honestly, that the Christians of the first century did much debate on the concept of "generation" which could be their or someone else's, or maybe the Lord would mean "generations"?
It is not reasonable to believe.
Christ's disciples understood the Lord's words exactly what they were.
Even if they could not know exactly "day and time" knew that their generation was.
All these "problems" would not exist if we had the humility to re-discuss the "start date" of this "incomprehensible generation".
A single error always leads to other errors.
The problem is not "a date wrong" but the attitude of subjection that is created towards a certain guide.
And this will lead to an adverse judgment.
What is the use of knowing "when the end comes" if our expectations are wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

I gave a talk about the "overlapping generations" when it was "new".

Pointed out not to ignore things like retirement plans, etc., because this overlapping stuff could easily drag on another 100 years--likely longer as medical tech advances.

Jehovah has his own time frame.

We were told to be ready at any time for the fan to be hit. We weren't told to jump the gun. As many seemed want to do.

Hey AnonymousBrother. Great to see you back!!! And hopefully coming back to the States will be a good move, too. I've heard you tell of your retirement planning talk in the past. Although you are right about the math supporting it, there are congregations where such talk will not be so welcome, of course. I imagine you raised a few eyebrows when you first talked about "100 years" more in this old system of things. That's going to be seen as "apostate" talk in some circles.

But even this idea that the math can support "100 years" potentially produces exactly the problem we had in 1975. We all acknowledge that the end can come at any time, that's a given. But the "overlapping generation" math, even when using maximum ages of 120, and an "anointing" acknowledged as early as age 15, doesn't extend forever. (Could stretch to 2124.) But what happens if you were asked to give that same talk 50 years from now? The math would only support a maximum that's closer to 50 years. And what happens 90 years from now? The math would only support a number closer to 10 more years. That's the same thing that started in 1966, when the system was expected to go on for only 10 to 15 more years.

Brother Splane once laughed about persons who might be sitting at the JW Broadcasting desk years down the road after he's gone, so I know he's thought of the possibility. According to the "Watchtower," as I'm sure you already know, Brother Russell started to lose faith in 1914 near the end of 1913 and early in the year 1914, and he also began speculating about how people might look back and laugh "100 years from now" on what he had been predicting. 

On the Long Island Rail Road a few years ago, I spoke to a "Harold Camping" guy who, along with his wife, had quit their jobs because it was May 20, and only ONE day before their BIG day. I told him about our religion and 1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, and 1925 and 1975, and how you have to consider what you will do if the end doesn't come as expected. I asked if he had thought about the kind of counseling members of his faith might need on May 22 if it doesn't happen. He spoke to me about how this new date was not wrong, and it would show a grave lack of faith to be considering the possibility that it wouldn't happen. I told him about Mt 24:36; Acts 1:7, and 1Th 5:1, and that Harold Camping was wrong about his "end date" on a previous occasion, and this man was completely prepared to handle those objections. He had a whole CD of information he was giving out that explained May 21, 2011 and had a good explanation for what went wrong on a previous prediction. I gave him my number and told him I'd be happy to talk to him on May 22.

At least Russell had been able to imagine people laughing at him 100 years down the road (2014). And many brothers that I knew were not taking 1975 very seriously either. This included my father, who even got in trouble for kind of letting that slip in a circuit assembly talk. Although my mother was a great believer in 1975, my father had a serious talk with me about 1975, confiding some of his objections about the fact that I was quitting school early to begin regular pioneering. He was of the opinion that we can believe it and be excited about it, but that it could be an embarrassment and reflect badly on Jehovah and his organization if we didn't count the cost, and consider all the possibilities before making a decision that we might "kick ourselves" for, looking back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

All these "problems" would not exist if we had the humility to re-discuss the "start date" of this "incomprehensible generation".

Yes. I've seen some of your proposed math. But I am a strong believer in Paul's words that we need nothing to be written to us about the times and seasons (1Th 5:1). This must mean that there is nothing left to calculate. The very last prophecy that hung on a time calculation was the destruction of Jerusalem, when Jesus said it would happen that armies would encamp around Jerusalem in that same generation, before the people who heard him had died out. And it happened about 34 years after Jesus predicted it to come upon that generation. After that destruction the sign had occurred and the stage was set for Jesus' parousia to appear at any time, but that it would be a bright and shining parousia like lightning, Jesus says. He also says that the parousia will come as a surprise, as unpredictable and unannounced as a thief in the night. People would be going about their business, marrying and being given in marriage, and yet that day of the parousia would come upon them as surprising as the day when the flood came in Noah's time, or when the fire came in Lot's time. Right up until the time when the parousia appears, people will be saying "where is this promised parousia of his?" while most people are still going about their business much the same way as they have since the beginning of time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tromboneck said:

The brothers have instructed us to keep up with fast moving updates when they occur and study to understand the reasons for the changes!

It’s not difficult to understand the reasons at all, as reasons for change, especially with regard to dates or time, are always because the previous understanding was proved to be the wrong understanding. Obviously. For example with the overlapping generation, it was evident that the brothers felt they had to come up with a new understanding for the generation, (what is called the the first group now), since practically all of the first group are dead!  

But you may have not meant that type of reason, since you referred to study. You might have meant the technicality of Bible based explanation that is presented. In this case the “overlapping generation” of Joseph. But that is still conjecture, because we cannot say categorically that this is what Jesus had in mind. And we are back to square one, conjecture, just as it was with the 1975 date.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I gave him my number and told him I'd be happy to talk to him on May 22.

Maybe you should have asked him for his number, and called him!  But no, I don't believe you would be so mean.

I assume he didn't call you. Perhaps he lost your number, but more likely it was this "ego" that has been mentioned on here. Everyone wants to save face, and they do it in all kinds of ways, whether it's selective amnesia, cognitive dissonance...whatever. I wonder what he would have said had you spoken later....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

and 'this generation' includes the first group AND the second group.

Still conjecture I'm afraid....

6 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

There is more to it than the explanation based on Joseph.

Yes, I am aware, I was only being brief. I understand the reasoning behind it. But still, we cannot say that this is what Jesus had in mind....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just going back to the 1967 Charles Sinutko talk, it is eerily similar to what we would hear now, except minus the gore and gloating over the death of billions. Thankfully we have toned down on the descriptive part of the vengeance of Jehovah, including the "see, we told you!" attitude. Also our talks are much more refined in other ways too. But as regards the end, terminology such as "so very near" "on the brink" and whatever other ways of describing the imminent end, that is still the same. Even him mentioning that "many of us have been waiting for the end for many years, and we are getting tired and weary now". I am not criticizing the pep talks to keep us on our toes at all. It was just very strange, listening to a talk given 50 years ago, and it sounding the same as some talks do now. I just thought of that after I read @JW Insider comment regarding Br. Russell imagining people looking back 100 years. Of course we really can look back 100 years now. That is the point JWI was making no doubt.

I wonder if Charles Sinutko is still alive. It would be interesting to talk to him. (There is a story about him in the 2004/8/22 Awake... Interestingly, reading his story, he never mentions 1975).

P.S. "Jehovah has given us a new year.....1975 "meat in due season".......Jehovah has given us.........where have I heard that before? That might explain why I get a little skeptical when I hear this kind of reasoning now....Is it always Jehovah? Or can it be imperfect humans sometimes?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Sì. Ho visto un po 'della vostra matematica proposto. Ma io sono un forte sostenitore parole di Paolo che abbiamo bisogno nulla da scrivere a noi circa i tempi e le stagioni (1Ts 5: 1). Questo deve significare che non c'è più niente da calcolare. L'ultima profezia che appeso a un calcolo del tempo era la distruzione di Gerusalemme, quando Gesù ha detto che sarebbe successo che gli eserciti sarebbero accampati intorno a Gerusalemme in quella stessa generazione, davanti al popolo che l'udivano era morto fuori. Ed è successo circa 34 anni dopo che Gesù ha predetto a venire su quella generazione. Dopo che la distruzione il segno era avvenuto e la scena era pronta per parusia di Gesù a comparire in qualsiasi momento, ma che sarebbe una parusia luminosa e splendente come un fulmine, dice Gesù. Dice anche che la parusia verrà come una sorpresa, come imprevedibile e imprevisto come un ladro nella notte. Le persone sarebbero andati i loro affari, sposando e erano date in matrimonio, e tuttavia quel giorno della parusia sarebbe venuto su di loro tanto sorprendente quanto il giorno in cui venne il diluvio ai tempi di Noè, o quando il fuoco è arrivato il tempo di Lot. A destra fino al momento in cui appare la parusia, la gente dirà "dove è presente parusia promesso di suo?" mentre la maggior parte delle persone sono ancora in corso circa il loro commercio più o meno allo stesso modo in cui hanno fin dall'inizio del tempo. 

"Re-discussing the departure date" does not need to understand the day and time. You rightly mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5 and I agree.
That there is "nothing more to calculate", however, it is a mistake.

If there is nothing more to calculate then what is it used to write, for example, that the two witnesses dressed in sack will preach for 1260 days?
1260 days from when?

If there is nothing more to compute because the angel says to Daniel "happy who is waiting and arrives at 1335 days"?

If we do not have to calculate why Revelation and Daniel talk about specific days and also say when to start?
According to your reasoning both the angel who speaks to Daniel and also the vision of John have made a mistake.

You who are a reflective person, you will not believe that the 1260 days or 1290 or 1335 days concern assemblies, books, resolutions, is not it?

Why, when Daniele asks "What will be the end of these things?" the angel does not tell him "You do not have to calculate, no one has to calculate, you can not know"?

The people of the world do not "see anything" but Christians have the Word of God.
The scripture you quoted continues: "But you brothers, you are not in darkness, so that day comes upon you as upon thieves, because you are all children of light and children of the day We belong neither to the night nor to the darkness "- 1 Thessalonians 5: 4, 5

The Bible clearly explains (not me) the order of events and even periods.
This does not mean knowing precisely "the day and the hour" but the order of events, yes.

The people of God, today, are watching this "superimposed geberation" which is non-scriptural nonsense.

Instead, the suppression of the continuous sacrifice is scriptural (whether it happened on April 20, 2017 or a future one) and from this event we begin to count clear and specific days.
I have not yet found any "superimposed generation" in the Bible (did you find it?)

instead, read what the Bible says about the suppression of continual sacrifice: "And I heard a certain saint speak, and another saint said to him that he was speaking:" Until the vision of the [constant] sacrifice and of the transgression that causes desolation , to make both [the] holy place and [the] army something to trample on? "14Thus said to me:" Up to two thousand three hundred [and] mornings, and [the] holy place will certainly be brought to the right condition. "- Daniel 8:13, 14 (see Revelation 11:7)

We must honestly ask ourselves whether we have gone from making absurd and ridiculous calculations (like those of the seventh millennium) to failing to see what is written in the Bible.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We must honestly ask ourselves whether we have gone from making absurd and ridiculous calculations (like those of the seventh millennium) to failing to see what is written in the Bible.

Since no matter WHAT the case is... it does not affect any person in any way whatsoever ..... in that .... whatever the case is, there is NOTHING you can do about it .... nothing whatsoever ... why worry about it at all ?

Like the Eagles said in their song about "Takin' it Easy" on a corner in Winslow Arizona ( What a fine sight to see...) " Don't let the sounds of your own wheels ... make you craaaaa-zeeee."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

If there is nothing more to calculate then what is it used to write, for example, that the two witnesses dressed in sack will preach for 1260 days?
1260 days from when?

I believe it's already been calculated, and refers to a time that the Bible has already clarified. And if I'm wrong, which is both possible and likely -- me being human and all -- then it can refer to a time period that will be recognized when it happens. Nothing to calculate from it, and no chronology necessary.

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

If there is nothing more to compute because the angel says to Daniel "happy who is waiting and arrives at 1335 days"?

If we do not have to calculate why Revelation and Daniel talk about specific days and also say when to start?
According to your reasoning both the angel who speaks to Daniel and also the vision of John have made a mistake.

Nowhere does the Bible say we have to calculate any of this. There was no mistake. In fact, if we read both Daniel and Revelation carefully we can see why there is nothing for us to calculate. But this, at this point, is just an interpretation which is not necessary to defend here. What I'm stating is just an opinion. I can try to defend it elsewhere under a topic about Daniel and Revelation.

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

You who are a reflective person, you will not believe that the 1260 days or 1290 or 1335 days concern assemblies, books, resolutions, is not it?

I doubt that any JWs really wholeheartedly believe what is currently taught about these time periods, otherwise we would be interested in what exactly was said in those books and assemblies. As it is, we are typically ashamed of the actual contents of those books and assembly speeches, and are forced to only pick and choose sentences out of context. If we really believed that Jesus Christ saw something in the content of those particular assemblies, we would be clamoring to look at whatever Jesus looked at to see if we could better understand the "mind of Christ." Instead, we are satisfied with the idea that, even if most of what was said in the key speeches of those assemblies was false doctrine, or even false prophecies, Jesus still saw their heart condition and was able to ignore the specific things they were saying and focus on the fact that we had been promoting a fairly unique set of core doctrines that were important and true. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the core doctrines that had been true both before and after these assemblies and publications of the time. But our core doctrines were not relevant to the reasons we identify these specific periods in history.

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We must honestly ask ourselves whether we have gone from making absurd and ridiculous calculations (like those of the seventh millennium) to failing to see what is written in the Bible.

Sorry to skip much of your own presentation about the need to calculate other points of reference. I don't see the need to calculate any of these time periods in advance, or be overly concerned over what they might have meant in the past. I keep commenting on my own view of these periods and then erasing it. I'll be happy to do this under another topic, however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought it would be a good idea to look into the ways in which we defend ourselves against the claims about 1975, and the way in which we answer questions about it. As a good example I will start with the way in which a person answered a 1975 challenge on YAHOO ANSWERS. The person signed their name as BAR-ANERGES. I'll assume the person is male. He is evidently not a member of this forum, and may no longer be alive, for all I know. But if anyone knows him, or his whereabouts, I hope he gets a chance to respond himself.

I'll just make some short comments to state my own opinion of what he said. I'll mark his words in a different color, like red.

  • It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975.

He's right that it is incorrect to claim that "the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975." For a couple of reasons.

  1. The most important reason is that this supposed claim is a kind of "straw man" that is worded in such a way that it diverts attention from the main point. It's true that no Witnesses should have been saying that Armageddon would come in 1975, in the sense that it must definitely come in 1975. The real question should be whether the claim is true that Jehovah's Witnesses promoted the idea that the Bible had marked the year 1975 in such a way that we could confidently claim that Armageddon should be expected within just a few years, or even just a few months, from the year 1975. Did Jehovah's Witnesses make use of this particular time period that focused on the year 1975 to justify the claim that people should decide quickly to convert and join the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses for safety from imminent destruction at Armageddon?
  2. Also, the term "the Witnesses" can refer to a wide range of people and opinions. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented in Watchtower publications, then we also have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented by the Watchtower's traveling representatives (circuit overseers, district overseers, branch representatives, Watch Tower Society directors, Governing Body, etc.) then again we have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. Anna has already pointed out that Charles Sinutko's infamous talk is not even consistent within itself.
  •  Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying:

This statement should raise a red flag immediately. We already know that not everything that was said or written was consistent. So we should be immediately wary of making use of one specific statement to generalize what "mature Witnesses knew and were saying." Also, if we look carefully at all the statements in the Watchtower publications from 1966 to 1975 we can see that by October 1974 the trend of the statements about 1975 had already begun to be more cautious. The most direct statements were made from 1968 to 1973. This is a typical pattern with predictions. It happens in corporations, political and economic analysis, and religion:

  1. The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution.
  2. Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it.
  3. Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful.
  4. Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins.
  5. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing.

Statements about the time period dating back to 1956 were in stage #1. Statements in 1966 were already in stage #2. Dozens of district overseers and circuit overseers along with statements by the service department until 1973 were in stage #3. F.W.Franz himself appeared to remain in stage #3 until 1975, but he also had vacillated into stage #4 at times during the 1974-1975 period. The 1974 summer assemblies, and the 1974 Watchtower quoted here, were in stage #4. Stage #5 had already begun at Bethel as early as late 1975 and early 1976, even though the initial definition of the time period was not about what would happen in 1975, but what would happen in the short number of years or months following 1975.

  • "The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635

"It appears" that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's." Note the backtracking (stage #4). Note even some "finger-pointing" (stage#5) in blaming considerable "individual speculation." The 1966 book (see first post in this topic) said "Six thousand years since man's creation will end in 1975." It did not say "it appears." Now, the new Watchtower didn't even want to use the term "1975" but changed it to "mid-1970's." Previously the question had been "What will the 1970's bring?" But this brings up an important caveat about stage#3 and stage#4 above. As Witnesses, we had an internal policy and external policy. So even while we could expect the more "reckless" stage#3 statements in our own special meetings from traveling overseers, circuit assemblies, and service meetings -- we could expect more careful stage#4 statements when we addressed the public in Sunday public addresses at the same assemblies or district conventions. In preaching, we were careful in such a way that we could even use language that meant stage#4 to the public while we were simultaneously able to treat it as less careful stage#3 speech. Here's a subtle example from a 1970 Watchtower:

*** w70 4/15 p. 256 Announcements ***

  • WHAT WILL THE 1970’S BRING? Many believe that the 1970’s will see drastic changes in man’s affairs, some hoping for the better, others fearing the worst. What is your view? Whether good or bad, no man knows for sure unless Jehovah God himself reveals it. Will he do so? His own Word says, Yes! Through his prophet Amos, Jehovah has promised: “For the Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Do not guess! And do not be unprepared! Whatever the future holds, it can work to your good if you read the Bible regularly, assisted by The Watchtower. Send today. One year, $1. Write now and receive free three timely booklets on Bible subjects.

While we were not stating it for sure to the public, internally we all knew what it means that Jehovah is revealing his confidential matter to his servants the prophets. We don't have to guess. We don't have to be unprepared. This is the same idea in Sinutko's talk, saying that "we don't have to guess." ( He said: "Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then.")

Compare the 1970 announcement to the same type of announcement just 2 years earlier:

*** w68 4/15 p. 256 Announcements ***

  • WHAT DOES YOUR FUTURE HOLD? What will the future bring you? Will it bring you peace of mind and security? Will it bring you faith and favor with God? It can! Regular reading of the Bible and following its teachings closely will bring you this and more. To ensure your full appreciation and understanding of what you read you need The Watchtower also. Study it with your Bible and receive the greatest benefit from what lies ahead. Send at once and receive three timely booklets on Bible subjects. One year, $1.

This type of ramping up of the rhetoric was common. There are several more examples.

I'll stop here for now, so this doesn't become impossibly long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AllenSmith:

I followed your link.

If I had not actually been there and seen what happened from Virginia to California, it would ALMOST be believable. The Frenzy was EVERYWHERE. It was consistent on both coasts, at Kingdom Halls and Assemblies, and I made many cartoons making fun of the ludicrousness of the 1975 frenzy. 

Unfortunately, year after year it wore me down and I began to reason "How could I be right, and everybody I know in the Truth be wrong?", and I quit a terrific job in the African Congo to be home in Virginia with my family when the end was to come.

This proves that youth is wasted on the young ... and the fact that I "caved" is an everlasting embarrassment that I have tried never to duplicate, even if it means telling some Brother much more theoretically inclined than I am to "go to hell".

That's where Liberty and Integrity begin.

However noble the goal, or how well intentioned ... It is evil to try and defend Truth ... with lies.

consensus     600   .jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

I also warned people against it,

Hi, 

this job you had done in that period looks like Geoffrey Jackson respond before ARC, how GB expects from all members who read/to read Bible and reject all false, error and wrong instructions, teachings that coming from Organization and to filter all teachings and opinions expressed in publications.

No matter of "side effect". :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Perhaps, in your culture it was different, but in mine, there was no hysteria attached.

Valid observation for me. When first encountering the idea about 1972, I thought it was everyone's understanding as I knew very few Witnesses. But as time went on,  I found it to be a patchy eccentricity rather than hysteria. 

However the fact remains that some of Jehovah's Witnesses DID get seduced by the song of '75 and some of Jehovah's Witnesses DID NOT get seduced by the song of '75.

And yet, we're all still here!  GET OVER IT!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Credo che sia già stato calcolato, e si riferisce ad un tempo che la Bibbia ha già chiarito. E se sbaglio , che è possibile e probabile - me di essere umano e tutti - allora può fare riferimento a un periodo di tempo che sarà riconosciuto quando succede. Niente da calcolare da essa, e non la cronologia necessario.

Da nessuna parte dice la Bibbia dobbiamo calcolare nulla di tutto questo. Non c'era alcun errore. Infatti, se leggiamo sia Daniele e Apocalisse con attenzione possiamo vedere il motivo per cui non v'è nulla per noi da calcolare. Ma questo, a questo punto, è solo un'interpretazione che non è necessario per difendere qui. Quello che sto affermando è solo un parere. Posso cercare di difendere altrove sotto un argomento su Daniele e Apocalisse.

Dubito che qualsiasi TdG davvero con tutto il cuore credere a quello che è attualmente insegnato circa questi periodi di tempo, altrimenti saremmo interessati a ciò che esattamente è stato detto in quei libri e assiemi. Così com'è, siamo in genere vergogna del contenuto effettivo di quei libri e discorsi di montaggio, e sono costretti a scegliere solo e scegli frasi fuori dal contesto. Se davvero creduto che Gesù Cristo ha visto qualcosa nel contenuto di tali assemblee particolari, saremmo chiedono a gran voce di guardare tutto ciò che Gesù lo guardò per vedere se potevamo comprendere meglio il "pensiero di Cristo". Invece, siamo soddisfatti con l'idea che, anche se la maggior parte di quanto è stato detto nei discorsi chiave di queste assemblee era falsa dottrina, o anche false profezie, Gesù vide ancora la loro condizione di cuore ed era in grado di ignorare le cose specifiche che dicevano e mettere a fuoco il fatto che ci si è fatta promotrice di una serie piuttosto unico di dottrine fondamentali che erano importanti e vero. Non fraintendetemi, apprezzo le dottrine fondamentali che fosse stato vero sia prima che dopo queste assemblee e le pubblicazioni del tempo. Ma le nostre dottrine fondamentali non sono stati rilevanti per le ragioni che abbiamo identificare questi specifici periodi della storia.

Siamo spiacenti di saltare gran parte della vostra presentazione circa la necessità di calcolare altri punti di riferimento. Non vedo la necessità di calcolare uno di questi periodi di tempo in anticipo, o essere eccessivamente preoccupata per quello che avrebbe potuto significare in passato. Continuo commentando il mio punto di vista di questi periodi e poi cancellarlo. Sarò felice di fare questo con un altro argomento, tuttavia.

All right, dear JW Insider, I will be happy to have a constructive conversation, in the light of the Scriptures, on these calculations and points of reference.
I would like to point out a contradiction in your words (if I have understood well from the translation).
If you admit that the 1260, 1290 and 1335 were not about assemblies or resolutions, they obviously concern something else, right?

Have you already got an idea of what these days could be?
is it something past or future?
If it were something future, it is obvious that "from a certain point" we need to start calculating, is not it?
If, instead, it is something past, we should be able to understand what the prophecy referred to (you yourself said that "we will understand it later").

However now I am coming out of the original article (which is dedicated to 1975). So I leave you with these questions.
I wish you the best

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AllenSmith25 said:

Yet, the only ones digging the past and bring up *incorrect* information are ex-witnesses.

Sorry if i am bored, but "1975 events", as unpleasant and inseparable part of WT JWorg history, was portion of official convention spiritual food program this year. GB digging their own and yours (members) past. Perhaps GB looking to much apostate channels about 1975 and been provoked to put this same subject as "proper food in proper time" (with late of few decades :)))))))) almost half century.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, AllenSmith25 said:

literature, omitting certain things, and adding

of course, it is possible. But as it was showed in some examples from WT publications in this Forum, WT using such tactics of omitting and skips commas, words, quotation, verses with purpose to misrepresent  other people thoughts and words. Perhaps some bad ex-JW imitate former religion leaders. :))) but we have many ex-JW who are honest and truthful in stating things. If you want you will accept that fact :))    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, AllenSmith25 said:

They knew I was an active witness, and they held no animosity toward me. We got along just fine.̬

hehe, you know what people said: do not talk about religion, politics and sport... and you will drink your coffee with person, of opposite stand, in peace :))))))) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AllenSmith25 said:

Personally, I knew a few [ex-witnesses]  that I worked with. I had no problems with them. They knew I was an active witness, and they held no animosity toward me. We got along just fine.

Now this raises an interesting angle. Why is that some ex-witnesses can live with their choices and those who remain as witnesses, and others go all nasty and vindictive? Probably for a separate discussion? I might just post it if any think it is worth a look?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Now this raises an interesting angle. Why is that some ex-witnesses can live with their choices and those who remain as witnesses, and others go all nasty and vindictive? Probably for a separate discussion? I might just post it if any think it is worth a look?

I think, in my opinion, those who are nasty and vindictive are those who feel they have been wronged (injustice and all that) and are shunned by their families. Remove the shunning, and I think that would take the wind out of their sails.  Then there are others who just have the need to insist on everyone seeing things their way, and get very upset if you don't agree with them, regardless whether they are shunned or not. 

Perhaps it's not a good idea to take a look. It might bring some rather controversial topics to light...

P.S. Unless you mean discussing the psychological aspect of it rather than any specific reasons...

Just looked at your post again...maybe I misunderstood your question, are you talking about vindictive and nasty Witnesses?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Anna said:

I think, in my opinion, those who are nasty and vindictive are those who feel they have been wronged (injustice and all that) and are shunned by their families. Remove the shunning, and I think that would take the wind out of their sails.  Then there are others who just have the need to insist on everyone seeing things their way, and get very upset if you don't agree with them, regardless whether they are shunned or not. 

Perhaps it's not a good idea to take a look. It might bring some rather controversial topics to light...

P.S. Unless you mean discussing the psychological aspect of it rather than any specific reasons...

 

Really good point. Do our extreme shunning policies give exJWs a justification for leaving the religion and staying away?

I think of 1 Corinthians 10:31-33: "Therefore, whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory. Keep from becoming causes for stumbling to Jews as well as Greeks and to the congregation of God, just as I am trying to please all people in all things, not seeking my own advantage, but that of the many, so that they may be saved."

Our org always focuses on stumbling fellow JWs, but the scripture indicates we are not supposed to stumble anyone...Jew, Greek, or Christian. When I reflect on the disfellowshipping video at the convention, doesn't our extreme stance cause great stumbling? JW parents aren't even supposed to pick up the phone when their daughter calls? Imagine if that daughter was terminally ill or had suffered a personal tragedy. Or maybe she just needed some support at a dark time? That would make most bitter. It seems our love extends only to some.

And when the prodigal son returned to his father, he didn't wait around for some committee to approve fellowship. He embraced him immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites