1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

All these "problems" would not exist if we had the humility to re-discuss the "start date" of this "incomprehensible generation".

Yes. I've seen some of your proposed math. But I am a strong believer in Paul's words that we need nothing to be written to us about the times and seasons (1Th 5:1). This must mean that there is nothing left to calculate. The very last prophecy that hung on a time calculation was the destruction of Jerusalem, when Jesus said it would happen that armies would encamp around Jerusalem in that same generation, before the people who heard him had died out. And it happened about 34 years after Jesus predicted it to come upon that generation. After that destruction the sign had occurred and the stage was set for Jesus' parousia to appear at any time, but that it would be a bright and shining parousia like lightning, Jesus says. He also says that the parousia will come as a surprise, as unpredictable and unannounced as a thief in the night. People would be going about their business, marrying and being given in marriage, and yet that day of the parousia would come upon them as surprising as the day when the flood came in Noah's time, or when the fire came in Lot's time. Right up until the time when the parousia appears, people will be saying "where is this promised parousia of his?" while most people are still going about their business much the same way as they have since the beginning of time. 

[Anna]

2 hours ago, tromboneck said:

The brothers have instructed us to keep up with fast moving updates when they occur and study to understand the reasons for the changes!

It’s not difficult to understand the reasons at all, as reasons for change, especially with regard to dates or time, are always because the previous understanding was proved to be the wrong understanding. Obviously. For example with the overlapping generation, it was evident that the brothers felt they had to come up with a new understanding for the generation, (what is called the the first group now), since practically all of the first group are dead!  

But you may have not meant that type of reason, since you referred to study. You might have meant the technicality of Bible based explanation that is presented. In this case the “overlapping generation” of Joseph. But that is still conjecture, because we cannot say categorically that this is what Jesus had in mind. And we are back to square one, conjecture, just as it was with the 1975 date.  

[Anna]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I gave him my number and told him I'd be happy to talk to him on May 22.

Maybe you should have asked him for his number, and called him!  But no, I don't believe you would be so mean.

I assume he didn't call you. Perhaps he lost your number, but more likely it was this "ego" that has been mentioned on here. Everyone wants to save face, and they do it in all kinds of ways, whether it's selective amnesia, cognitive dissonance...whatever. I wonder what he would have said had you spoken later....

[Anna]

6 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

and 'this generation' includes the first group AND the second group.

Still conjecture I'm afraid....

6 minutes ago, tromboneck said:

There is more to it than the explanation based on Joseph.

Yes, I am aware, I was only being brief. I understand the reasoning behind it. But still, we cannot say that this is what Jesus had in mind....

[Anna]

Just going back to the 1967 Charles Sinutko talk, it is eerily similar to what we would hear now, except minus the gore and gloating over the death of billions. Thankfully we have toned down on the descriptive part of the vengeance of Jehovah, including the "see, we told you!" attitude. Also our talks are much more refined in other ways too. But as regards the end, terminology such as "so very near" "on the brink" and whatever other ways of describing the imminent end, that is still the same. Even him mentioning that "many of us have been waiting for the end for many years, and we are getting tired and weary now". I am not criticizing the pep talks to keep us on our toes at all. It was just very strange, listening to a talk given 50 years ago, and it sounding the same as some talks do now. I just thought of that after I read @JW Insider comment regarding Br. Russell imagining people looking back 100 years. Of course we really can look back 100 years now. That is the point JWI was making no doubt.

I wonder if Charles Sinutko is still alive. It would be interesting to talk to him. (There is a story about him in the 2004/8/22 Awake... Interestingly, reading his story, he never mentions 1975).

P.S. "Jehovah has given us a new year.....1975 "meat in due season".......Jehovah has given us.........where have I heard that before? That might explain why I get a little skeptical when I hear this kind of reasoning now....Is it always Jehovah? Or can it be imperfect humans sometimes?

 

 

 

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Sì. Ho visto un po 'della vostra matematica proposto. Ma io sono un forte sostenitore parole di Paolo che abbiamo bisogno nulla da scrivere a noi circa i tempi e le stagioni (1Ts 5: 1). Questo deve significare che non c'è più niente da calcolare. L'ultima profezia che appeso a un calcolo del tempo era la distruzione di Gerusalemme, quando Gesù ha detto che sarebbe successo che gli eserciti sarebbero accampati intorno a Gerusalemme in quella stessa generazione, davanti al popolo che l'udivano era morto fuori. Ed è successo circa 34 anni dopo che Gesù ha predetto a venire su quella generazione. Dopo che la distruzione il segno era avvenuto e la scena era pronta per parusia di Gesù a comparire in qualsiasi momento, ma che sarebbe una parusia luminosa e splendente come un fulmine, dice Gesù. Dice anche che la parusia verrà come una sorpresa, come imprevedibile e imprevisto come un ladro nella notte. Le persone sarebbero andati i loro affari, sposando e erano date in matrimonio, e tuttavia quel giorno della parusia sarebbe venuto su di loro tanto sorprendente quanto il giorno in cui venne il diluvio ai tempi di Noè, o quando il fuoco è arrivato il tempo di Lot. A destra fino al momento in cui appare la parusia, la gente dirà "dove è presente parusia promesso di suo?" mentre la maggior parte delle persone sono ancora in corso circa il loro commercio più o meno allo stesso modo in cui hanno fin dall'inizio del tempo. 

"Re-discussing the departure date" does not need to understand the day and time. You rightly mentioned 1 Thessalonians 5 and I agree.
That there is "nothing more to calculate", however, it is a mistake.

If there is nothing more to calculate then what is it used to write, for example, that the two witnesses dressed in sack will preach for 1260 days?
1260 days from when?

If there is nothing more to compute because the angel says to Daniel "happy who is waiting and arrives at 1335 days"?

If we do not have to calculate why Revelation and Daniel talk about specific days and also say when to start?
According to your reasoning both the angel who speaks to Daniel and also the vision of John have made a mistake.

You who are a reflective person, you will not believe that the 1260 days or 1290 or 1335 days concern assemblies, books, resolutions, is not it?

Why, when Daniele asks "What will be the end of these things?" the angel does not tell him "You do not have to calculate, no one has to calculate, you can not know"?

The people of the world do not "see anything" but Christians have the Word of God.
The scripture you quoted continues: "But you brothers, you are not in darkness, so that day comes upon you as upon thieves, because you are all children of light and children of the day We belong neither to the night nor to the darkness "- 1 Thessalonians 5: 4, 5

The Bible clearly explains (not me) the order of events and even periods.
This does not mean knowing precisely "the day and the hour" but the order of events, yes.

The people of God, today, are watching this "superimposed geberation" which is non-scriptural nonsense.

Instead, the suppression of the continuous sacrifice is scriptural (whether it happened on April 20, 2017 or a future one) and from this event we begin to count clear and specific days.
I have not yet found any "superimposed generation" in the Bible (did you find it?)

instead, read what the Bible says about the suppression of continual sacrifice: "And I heard a certain saint speak, and another saint said to him that he was speaking:" Until the vision of the [constant] sacrifice and of the transgression that causes desolation , to make both [the] holy place and [the] army something to trample on? "14Thus said to me:" Up to two thousand three hundred [and] mornings, and [the] holy place will certainly be brought to the right condition. "- Daniel 8:13, 14 (see Revelation 11:7)

We must honestly ask ourselves whether we have gone from making absurd and ridiculous calculations (like those of the seventh millennium) to failing to see what is written in the Bible.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

23 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We must honestly ask ourselves whether we have gone from making absurd and ridiculous calculations (like those of the seventh millennium) to failing to see what is written in the Bible.

Since no matter WHAT the case is... it does not affect any person in any way whatsoever ..... in that .... whatever the case is, there is NOTHING you can do about it .... nothing whatsoever ... why worry about it at all ?

Like the Eagles said in their song about "Takin' it Easy" on a corner in Winslow Arizona ( What a fine sight to see...) " Don't let the sounds of your own wheels ... make you craaaaa-zeeee."

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Yeah ... I shoulda put some ellipses in there .  Know whaddi mean, Vern?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

If there is nothing more to calculate then what is it used to write, for example, that the two witnesses dressed in sack will preach for 1260 days?
1260 days from when?

I believe it's already been calculated, and refers to a time that the Bible has already clarified. And if I'm wrong, which is both possible and likely -- me being human and all -- then it can refer to a time period that will be recognized when it happens. Nothing to calculate from it, and no chronology necessary.

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

If there is nothing more to compute because the angel says to Daniel "happy who is waiting and arrives at 1335 days"?

If we do not have to calculate why Revelation and Daniel talk about specific days and also say when to start?
According to your reasoning both the angel who speaks to Daniel and also the vision of John have made a mistake.

Nowhere does the Bible say we have to calculate any of this. There was no mistake. In fact, if we read both Daniel and Revelation carefully we can see why there is nothing for us to calculate. But this, at this point, is just an interpretation which is not necessary to defend here. What I'm stating is just an opinion. I can try to defend it elsewhere under a topic about Daniel and Revelation.

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

You who are a reflective person, you will not believe that the 1260 days or 1290 or 1335 days concern assemblies, books, resolutions, is not it?

I doubt that any JWs really wholeheartedly believe what is currently taught about these time periods, otherwise we would be interested in what exactly was said in those books and assemblies. As it is, we are typically ashamed of the actual contents of those books and assembly speeches, and are forced to only pick and choose sentences out of context. If we really believed that Jesus Christ saw something in the content of those particular assemblies, we would be clamoring to look at whatever Jesus looked at to see if we could better understand the "mind of Christ." Instead, we are satisfied with the idea that, even if most of what was said in the key speeches of those assemblies was false doctrine, or even false prophecies, Jesus still saw their heart condition and was able to ignore the specific things they were saying and focus on the fact that we had been promoting a fairly unique set of core doctrines that were important and true. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the core doctrines that had been true both before and after these assemblies and publications of the time. But our core doctrines were not relevant to the reasons we identify these specific periods in history.

4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

We must honestly ask ourselves whether we have gone from making absurd and ridiculous calculations (like those of the seventh millennium) to failing to see what is written in the Bible.

Sorry to skip much of your own presentation about the need to calculate other points of reference. I don't see the need to calculate any of these time periods in advance, or be overly concerned over what they might have meant in the past. I keep commenting on my own view of these periods and then erasing it. I'll be happy to do this under another topic, however.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

The same is true if the tensions with North Korea start a thermonuclear World War III.

 

There is NOTHING we can do about it.

 

If EITHER ONE happens, I am going to put a lawn chair in the middle of the street, with a cooler full of beer, and watch the show !

 

[JW Insider]

I thought it would be a good idea to look into the ways in which we defend ourselves against the claims about 1975, and the way in which we answer questions about it. As a good example I will start with the way in which a person answered a 1975 challenge on YAHOO ANSWERS. The person signed their name as BAR-ANERGES. I'll assume the person is male. He is evidently not a member of this forum, and may no longer be alive, for all I know. But if anyone knows him, or his whereabouts, I hope he gets a chance to respond himself.

I'll just make some short comments to state my own opinion of what he said. I'll mark his words in a different color, like red.

• It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975.

He's right that it is incorrect to claim that "the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975." For a couple of reasons.

1. The most important reason is that this supposed claim is a kind of "straw man" that is worded in such a way that it diverts attention from the main point. It's true that no Witnesses should have been saying that Armageddon would come in 1975, in the sense that it must definitely come in 1975. The real question should be whether the claim is true that Jehovah's Witnesses promoted the idea that the Bible had marked the year 1975 in such a way that we could confidently claim that Armageddon should be expected within just a few years, or even just a few months, from the year 1975. Did Jehovah's Witnesses make use of this particular time period that focused on the year 1975 to justify the claim that people should decide quickly to convert and join the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses for safety from imminent destruction at Armageddon?
2. Also, the term "the Witnesses" can refer to a wide range of people and opinions. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented in Watchtower publications, then we also have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented by the Watchtower's traveling representatives (circuit overseers, district overseers, branch representatives, Watch Tower Society directors, Governing Body, etc.) then again we have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. Anna has already pointed out that Charles Sinutko's infamous talk is not even consistent within itself.

•  Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying:

This statement should raise a red flag immediately. We already know that not everything that was said or written was consistent. So we should be immediately wary of making use of one specific statement to generalize what "mature Witnesses knew and were saying." Also, if we look carefully at all the statements in the Watchtower publications from 1966 to 1975 we can see that by October 1974 the trend of the statements about 1975 had already begun to be more cautious. The most direct statements were made from 1968 to 1973. This is a typical pattern with predictions. It happens in corporations, political and economic analysis, and religion:

1. The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution.
2. Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it.
3. Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful.
4. Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins.
5. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing.

Statements about the time period dating back to 1956 were in stage #1. Statements in 1966 were already in stage #2. Dozens of district overseers and circuit overseers along with statements by the service department until 1973 were in stage #3. F.W.Franz himself appeared to remain in stage #3 until 1975, but he also had vacillated into stage #4 at times during the 1974-1975 period. The 1974 summer assemblies, and the 1974 Watchtower quoted here, were in stage #4. Stage #5 had already begun at Bethel as early as late 1975 and early 1976, even though the initial definition of the time period was not about what would happen in 1975, but what would happen in the short number of years or months following 1975.

• "The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635

"It appears" that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's." Note the backtracking (stage #4). Note even some "finger-pointing" (stage#5) in blaming considerable "individual speculation." The 1966 book (see first post in this topic) said "Six thousand years since man's creation will end in 1975." It did not say "it appears." Now, the new Watchtower didn't even want to use the term "1975" but changed it to "mid-1970's." Previously the question had been "What will the 1970's bring?" But this brings up an important caveat about stage#3 and stage#4 above. As Witnesses, we had an internal policy and external policy. So even while we could expect the more "reckless" stage#3 statements in our own special meetings from traveling overseers, circuit assemblies, and service meetings -- we could expect more careful stage#4 statements when we addressed the public in Sunday public addresses at the same assemblies or district conventions. In preaching, we were careful in such a way that we could even use language that meant stage#4 to the public while we were simultaneously able to treat it as less careful stage#3 speech. Here's a subtle example from a 1970 Watchtower:

*** w70 4/15 p. 256 Announcements ***

• WHAT WILL THE 1970’S BRING? Many believe that the 1970’s will see drastic changes in man’s affairs, some hoping for the better, others fearing the worst. What is your view? Whether good or bad, no man knows for sure unless Jehovah God himself reveals it. Will he do so? His own Word says, Yes! Through his prophet Amos, Jehovah has promised: “For the Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Do not guess! And do not be unprepared! Whatever the future holds, it can work to your good if you read the Bible regularly, assisted by The Watchtower. Send today. One year, $1. Write now and receive free three timely booklets on Bible subjects.

While we were not stating it for sure to the public, internally we all knew what it means that Jehovah is revealing his confidential matter to his servants the prophets. We don't have to guess. We don't have to be unprepared. This is the same idea in Sinutko's talk, saying that "we don't have to guess." ( He said: "Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then.")

Compare the 1970 announcement to the same type of announcement just 2 years earlier:

*** w68 4/15 p. 256 Announcements ***

• WHAT DOES YOUR FUTURE HOLD? What will the future bring you? Will it bring you peace of mind and security? Will it bring you faith and favor with God? It can! Regular reading of the Bible and following its teachings closely will bring you this and more. To ensure your full appreciation and understanding of what you read you need The Watchtower also. Study it with your Bible and receive the greatest benefit from what lies ahead. Send at once and receive three timely booklets on Bible subjects. One year, $1.

This type of ramping up of the rhetoric was common. There are several more examples.

I'll stop here for now, so this doesn't become impossibly long.

[JW Insider]

1 minute ago, AllenSmith said:

From opinion to opinion, what makes you think yours is better.

I don't say mine is better.