1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses

[JW Insider]

On 12/3/2017 at 11:17 AM, AllenSmith25 said:

Not a problem, I get bored myself. I don't think spiritual gems include ex-witness analogy, or at least, I haven't heard it from the platform. But you could be correct if the GB is *reflecting* on past issues that seem to continue since 1874 for many. I'm sure, they need to remind people that have a concern from information gathered through the internet. Ex-Witnesses enjoy slicing and splicing videos, and taking Watchtower literature, omitting certain things, and adding their own words to it, and calling it, all Watchtower. I've even heard voice records of Fred Franz speeches manipulated about 1975 on the internet.

Very good points. Just like the early Trinitarians made additions and adjustments to the meaning of 1 John 5:7-9, because their own ideal meaning of Trinity wasn't there in any parts of the REAL Bible. Similarly, ex-JWs have actually gone to the trouble of splicing and editing a talk by Fred Franz, in which they remove his cautionary statements and make it look like he was promoting 1975 as the time for Armageddon, not just the end of 6,000 years on man's existence. I think many ex-JWs like to pride themselves on being able to take exact words and exact photocopies of older doctrinal material and using our own words against us. In this case, partly because  I think the full 1975 issue is not even understood, some have resorted to dishonesty because the actual point made in those days is not so damning as they wish it was. They wish it had been something very bad, so some (at least one case I saw) dishonestly changed the words of the original.

I was concerned when the GB brought up the topic of 1975 again earlier this year, and think that it was a great error to try to dismiss it by implying that it came from the unauthorized speculation of individuals in the "rank and file" as the GB sometimes have called us. A good part of this really was from speculation, of course Although I think this was the very goal of the person behind it. He was hoping for speculation. None of this foundational material about 1975 could have come from anyone but Fred Franz, because at the time he was the only one allowed to speculate about prophetic matters. He was called the Oracle at Bethel sincerely by peers who loved him, and sarcastically by those who were jealous (like Bert Schroeder). But Fred Franz was now giving us permission to speculate. It was even more than that. He put information out there and pretty much told us that it was time we should start speculating on what it means. He gave us a few guidelines about what we say to the public regarding this speculation, but he simultaneously guided the parameters of the speculation. He reminded us of all the things that we might see happening around this time period. If we listen to his ideas combined from several of his talks on the topic we can see why so many understood that he was hoping and implying that we get the following meaning (in loose paraphrase):

• Are we saying that the fall of Babylon, the attack on God's people, the Great Tribulation and Armageddon would start by 1975? No ..... but it could! (wink, wink, nod, nod) Just don't be telling the public that it will. [This is our own little secret bit of knowledge, because we know that God doesn't do a single thing unless he first tells his servants, the prophets.] So, if you know who it is the constitutes Jehovah's prophet today, it should be clear to you privileged few: what you can expect -- not necessarily in 1975 specifically, but definitely in the months to shortly follow. Let him who has ears listen!

I think there is plenty of evidence that we were being ASKED to speculate, at least up until 1974.  By 1974 we were being told to stop speculating. Don't know if it's true but R.Franz says that F.Franz had lost some credibility at this point from N.Knorr, because F.Franz had told Knorr that he needed to adjust the end of 6,000 years of human existence to 1974 instead of 1975. Knorr thought this finally asking too much, and asked Fred Franz to just leave it alone.

In fact, it was speculation that caused some to understand the partly ambiguous material as NOT applying specifically to 1975, or even necessarily to the short months following 1975. Some were speculating that it might still take years before the generation died out. They were speculating about how to combine the material about 1975 with the fact that the generation that saw and understood 1914 would have to have been born around 1900 and would begin dying out after 70 or 80 years. That could reach until 1980. Others were already talking about the end of the twentieth century. And rarely, someone would mention that someone in Siberia was known to live to be 120. That could take us all the way to the year 2020. So how should we speculate that this new information about 1975 meshes with the generation that could take us all the way until the year 2020, if necessary.

Fred Franz also promoted and wrote most of the Ezekiel book material to go along with this 1975 idea. The idea of promoting Ezekiel in was so that we could be reminded that "The nations will know that there had been a prophet among them."

• (Ezekiel 2:3-5) 3 He went on to say to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the people of Israel, to rebellious nations that have rebelled against me.. . .  and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says.Â’ 5 As for them, whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will certainly know that a prophet was among them.
• (Ezekiel 33:32, 33) . . .They will hear your words, but no one will act on them. 33 And when it comes true—and it will come true—they will have to know that a prophet has been among them.”

Ezekiel had been mentioned 5 to 15 times a year in most Watchtower, but suddenly it about 50 times in 1969, 306 times in 1972, 116 times in 1973, dropping back to only 6 times in 1975. Some have speculated that all this talk about Jehovah's Witnesses acting as God's prophet was only because of the teaching of God's word. But notice the time period and the references to the time period when the point was made. Note the years on the following articles, which of course coincided with the Ezekiel book which we were studying in 1972 and 1973:

*** w73 3/1 p. 150 Heeding Divine Warning Is Wisdom ***

• Better it is to know now, rather than too late, that there is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us, and to accept and act upon the Bible message, “not as the word of men, but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God.” (1 Thess. 2:13) Those who wait undecided until what JehovahÂ’s Christian witnesses have been proclaiming ‘comes trueÂ’ “will also have to know that a prophet himself had proved to be in the midst of them.” (Ezek. 33:33) But such belated knowledge will not mean salvation for them, for it will find their hearts and their ways to be unchanged.
• What is to be gained by hesitating and doubting to the end that Jehovah can raise up and has raised up a genuine “prophet” within our generation? Certainly it will gain for no one the divine favor and protection needed during the speedily approaching “great tribulation.” If our course is to be that of wisdom and of faith, then, with Bible in hand, we will heed the warning of JehovahÂ’s true watchman and will take refuge where Jehovah indicates in his Word. Then, when JehovahÂ’s prophetic watchman gets the report that Christendom has been struck down, we, together with the faithful watchman, will continue to live.

*** w72 4/1 pp. 197-200 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’ ***

• So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? IDENTIFYING THE “PROPHET” These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?. . . This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as JehovahÂ’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief. Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?
• . . .  EzekielÂ’s name meant “God Strengthens,” and . . .  At the time, they might not view or appreciate him as a prophet of Jehovah. Nevertheless, whether they paid attention to him or refrained, the occasion was to come when these rebellious people would “know also that a prophet himself happened to be in the midst of them.” Jehovah would confirm him as a prophet then by causing what Ezekiel prophesied to come true. (Ezek. 2:3-5) Ezekiel was further told: . . .Since the year 1919 C.E. JehovahÂ’s witnesses have found circumstances to be just like that . . . . To Ezekiel, in his vision, and, symbolically to the modern-day “prophet,” the spirit-begotten, anointed ones who are the nucleus of JehovahÂ’s witnesses today, . . . The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that JehovahÂ’s witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support. (Rev. 14:6, 7; Matt. 25:31, 32) And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven.  Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a “prophet” of Jehovah was among them. Actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite “prophet” in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the Bible with the “prophet” group and its companions.

It was no coincidence, and definitely intended to help fuel speculation during this time period of 1975-era predictions, when these predictions were then accompanied by a claim that there was a prophet among Jehovah's Witnesses, directed from heaven to deliver a message that would be fulfilled. "Yes. the time must come shortly." 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

when these predictions were then accompanied a claim that there was a prophet among Jehovah's Witnesses,

 

37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Others were already talking about the end of the twentieth century. And rarely, someone would mention that someone in Siberia was known to live to be 120. That could take us all the way to the year 2020.

How old is @The Librarian?

[Srecko Sostar]

20 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

JW parents aren't even supposed to pick up the phone when their daughter calls? Imagine if that daughter was terminally ill or had suffered a personal tragedy. Or maybe she just needed some support at a dark time?

Many "illustrations" as in this fictive (or real?) drama or video movies that WT producing for giving "spiritual lessons and guidance" to members, are made in a way to mask or not to show some other circumstances, elements, factors, possibilities that exist in human nature and in responding to such issue in different situations. 

Some mothers, as one in video, would not pick up the phone and talk to dfd child. But some would. This lesson in video was made for those who not obey the rule, and for those who have to learn what to do in some future fictive or not fictive circumstances.

But you put very very good questions. Thanks.      

[Srecko Sostar]

21 hours ago, Anna said:

P.S. I think if the daughter would be terminally ill, that would be an entirely different kettle of fish

You want to.....

 introduce "precedence" :)))?  exceptions from The Rule?

 

[Srecko Sostar]

21 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

why would we treat them like they don't exist at our meetings?

I have read somewhere in publications how dfd family member can come to meeting in the same car with rest of the family, but he/she can not seat with them in KH, but separate in some other corner of hall, not in the same seats as rest of family. Then when meeting is over he/she can seat in the same car to go back to home.

Imagine how this sound and look so bizarre and unnatural and crazy rule to obey :))))

[Anna]

3 hours ago, tromboneck said:

So what? Don't you warn people not to make the same mistakes that you have made if you have found them to be dangerous?

When you put conjecture in print, and then distribute it to thousands of people, who are eagerly looking for a "sign" and then expect them not to get excited, and not talk about it....it is too late!

Plus, it is very likely that those who put this conjecture in print in the first place, believed it was true.

[JW Insider]

On 12/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, Gone Fishing said:

Now this raises an interesting angle. Why is that some ex-witnesses can live with their choices and those who remain as witnesses, and others go all nasty and vindictive? Probably for a separate discussion? I might just post it if any think it is worth a look?

That's a good question. I suspect that Anna is right with the general idea that it is those who feel they suffered an injustice. This seems to be true of all persons who are vindictive. They are looking for a kind of "justice" usually believing they are acting against injustice. Of course the word "vindictive" itself is related to the word "vindicate" which can happen through winning a vanquishing vengeful victory -- or in some cases it can be accomplished with a kind word. When we pray for Jehovah's name to be vindicated, we are in effect asking for his name to be avenged in that it is either set free from false claims (or impending punishment) or set free by punishing those who spoke against it or made claims against it. I'll try to brainstorm a few scenarios:

• In some cases, of course, it's an ego so big that it can't let go of being told they were wrong.
• In some cases, the persons thought they were fooled and lost a part of their life when they would have otherwise tried their hand at a business, a career, a philanthropic charity, or whatever.
• In some cases, I suppose, that as Witnesses they learned that the right and moral thing to do when one learns the truth is to go out and convince others in spite of persecution or being made fun of or argued against. Thinking they now have the truth and it's the Witnesses who need to hear it, they focus on the very ones who taught them to preach about such things.
• In some cases, the person has become unconvinced of so many of the doctrines that they believe it is not worth joining or rejoining after earlier association with their believing family members. When those family members shun them, they believe that they have lost their family to a cult, because they think those with the crazy beliefs are shunning those with reasonable beliefs. And they will probably also think that the rule against association is just because their "cult leaders" don't want them to spending enough time with non-believers to see that the non-believers' beliefs are reasonable
• In some cases, persons begin to focus on (obsess over?) issues with things like child abuse, deaths from not accepting blood transfusion, control over a person's educational opportunities, control over their associations, etc., and they feel like some kind of justice warrior who must make the world right -- but decide that this must start with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Maybe it's just the loud 10% who are the only ones we hear about. Based on the Pew numbers, I have a feeling that most of us probably never hear much again from 90% of former JWs, and they just go quietly about their business and almost forget they were ever JWs. (Actually, that seems impossible, so I'm going to revisit that one.) I've met a few in service like this. So the ones we hear from must feel they have a good reason to speak up. If they seem vindictive, they probably want vindication. If they are nasty, then we can just be glad they are no longer with us.

It occurred to me that there is probably something about becoming a JW that is polarizing. I don't think anyone can easily forget their dedication vow. If they leave they probably think it's important to justify it to those who they once loved. I also think there is emotional trauma and even a level of PTSD in thinking someone loves you and then having your world turned upside-down on seeing their hatred (through shunning). This must be jarring. Of course, it's true that shunning is not a good way of showing that we love our enemies, but I see it as more of an immaturity on our part than a hatred.

[Noble Berean]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I have read somewhere in publications how dfd family member can come to meeting in the same car with rest of the family, but he/she can not seat with them in KH, but separate in some other corner of hall, not in the same seats as rest of family. Then when meeting is over he/she can seat in the same car to go back to home.

Imagine how this sound and look so bizarre and unnatural and crazy rule to obey :))))

Got a reference for that?

[TrueTomHarley]

On 12/2/2017 at 11:51 PM, JW Insider said:

I thought it would be a good idea to look into the ways in which we defend ourselves against the claims about 1975, and the way in which we answer questions about it.

We say Witnesses got all excited over something that turned out to be a big nothingburger. Give them the short answer - ‘Everyone is allowed one failed end-of-world date per lifetime. It is in the rules’ - and be done with it.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, it's true that shunning is not a good way of showing that we love our enemies, but I see it as more of an immaturity on our part than a hatred.

I wonder if your post could go under a new topic? I'm not quite finished flogging the 1975 horse, lol. But I don't want this topic to get lost, I definitely think that shunning and disfellowshipping should be revisited.

I personally am not against disfellowshipping, what I am against is being told who and how I must shun, especially when it's a family member. Maybe we all could explore the  VIDEO a little....?

[Anna]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, "Is time running out for this generation?" would have been quite an appropriate question for what was thought was THE GENERATION (what is now called the first group)....

I will have to dig this Awake up and look at its contents...

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We say Witnesses got all excited over something that turned out to be a big nothingburger. Give them the short answer - ‘Everyone is allowed one failed end-of-world date per lifetime. It is in the rules’ - and be done with it.

Yes. You've said this before, but of course the Watch Tower has now broken the Biblical rules about date-setting regarding several different time periods: 1881, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1970's, 1999/2000.

The last one, listed as 1999/2000, might sound confusing. Here's how it was worded in the Ezekiel book, back in 1971:

*** kj chap. 12 p. 216 par. 9 “Until He Comes Who Has the Legal Right” ***

• Shortly, within our twentieth century, the “battle in the day of Jehovah” will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom.