24 YEAR OLD BETHELITE WOMAN RECENTLY DISFELLOWSHIPPED FOR APOSTASY COMMITS SUICIDE!

Jack Ryan · June 25, 2016

A 24 old Bethelite woman who was in the last two weeks caught in Brooklyn, NY. Bethel and interrogated for two days for gathering critical, secretive information on the Watchtower Organization and sharing it with a working network of renegade brother Bethelites inside the world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses.

The young JW sister was disfellowshipped and sent home. It was reported that when she arrived home she was treated terribly by her Jehovah's Witness family and relatives. Shunned and disgracefully mentally abused emotionally took it's toll on her and she committed suicide this week.

A major "WITCH HUNT" is now underway inside Bethel for this elusive, rapidly growing group of doubting brother Bethelites who are now sharing covert information with Six Screens and other critical websites of the Watchtower.

The news of the suicide according to Johnny is very painful to those who were close to her. Johnny was emotionally upset when he reported the suicide this morning.

JW Insider · July 28, 2017

@Jay Witness

Didn't notice this until now. What a terrible tragedy. I didn't listen to the report, because I started a couple of others first and realized that they are a little too negative for my taste. I still have a few long-time friends at Bethel, and a couple of them will talk to me about anything. Some of what I get from them is a bit too gossipy but they are firm believers in the idea that 'what you hear in the darkness you should shout from the rooftops.'

I don't know if they knew this sister but there was a definite lack of communication and lack of openness since the middle of last year with one of my friends. I wondered if there was something going on similar to what happened in late 1979 and early 1980. If they are back to talking openly about anything, maybe they will tell me more about what this sister was doing.

From a Biblical perspective, I don't think an organization like ours has any right to secrecy. I think everything we do, we should be proud to preach about, and humble enough to let others evaluate it, too. And if we do things we are not proud of, these should be shouted from the rooftops so that all of us, even the world, can evaluate it. I'm angry that such a thing could happen. Reminds me of how Scaramucci went flailing and embarrassing himself yesterday because he thought his loyalty to the US president gave him a mandate to just wildly accuse people and it obviously clouded his judgment. I saw the same kind of flailing back in 1979-1982 and I saw good friends lied to back in 1980 as a way to get them to try to turn in their friends, and I saw political scheming behind the scenes that would have even scared off a lot of good Bethelites if they had been able to see what was going on in closed doors right around them.

The open court system of Jewish towns and cities mentioned in the Mosaic Law is a much better precedent for Society and congregation decisions than the secrecy we encounter (and are expected to adhere to) today. The only problem I see is privacy concerns for certain types of cases, yet justice would always have a better chance of prevailing if everyone could be aware of the decision making processes. They say that sausage and apple-cider taste great, but you just don't want to go behind the scenes to see how they are made. I would add religion to the list, until we can learn to be humble enough to expose our processes to scrutiny and proud enough to allow the world to see why we are proud to be Jehovah's Witnesses.

TrueTomHarley · July 28, 2017

On 6/25/2016 at 5:47 PM, Jay Witness said:

The news of the suicide according to Johnny is very painful to those who were close to her.

Is this ever not the case?

Any report of suicide evokes sympathy. People are left to wonder of inner turmoil and so forth. Still, any mental health professional will say that the inability to move on after a perceived negative experience puts one at increased risk for self-harm. People who can't 'move on' in life suffer more often than those who can and do. What we have here, assuming matters are objectively reported - which I do not assume because I have seen Jay's other posts and he has made his intent clear - is a correlation augmented by a possible trigger, but hardly cause and effect.

On 6/25/2016 at 5:47 PM, Jay Witness said:

It was reported that when she arrived home she was treated terribly by her Jehovah's Witness family and relatives.

Does anyone think when Kathy Griffin held aloft the severed head of the President, it caused no ripples in her Republican (if they were that) family? She is trying to destroy what they hold of paramount importance.

Of course, I knew neither the young woman, nor the circumstances, nor what 'mission' she was on when she was thwarted. (I suspected the latter is exaggerated by Jay becasue he exaggerates anything he deems harmful to the visible organization) Therefore, I can only speak in the abstract.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

From a Biblical perspective, I don't think an organization like ours has any right to secrecy. I think everything we do, we should be proud to preach about, and humble enough to let others evaluate it, too.

To a degree that may be true, but 2 Timothy 3:1-5 also must be factored in - how persons in the last days would be not open to any agreement, impossible to satisfy, fierce, disloyal, betrayers, headstrong, and so forth. Many today have no interest in reform but seek only to destroy. Divorce it from the field of religion for a moment, for it is clearly seen anywhere - the urge to tear down with no corresponding interest in building. Obama suffered it. Trump suffers it

It hardly follows that a group that merely wants to protect confidential information is villainous because someone takes her own life when she is stymied trying to extract it.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 28, 2017

I remember many years ago, author Truman Capote ( "In Cold Blood", and "Breakfast at Tiffanys", etc.) was being interviewed on the Tonite Show by Johnny Carson. Capote was a short fat man with glasses and a nasal twang to his voice. Hold your nose and talk slowly, and you will get the idea...

Capote had contemplated suicide, and even checked himself into a mental institution where he had a "revelation", which was in the news, and Johnny asked him about his thoughts on killing himself.

Capote replied (paraphrased) "Well, Johnny ... I got a bedddder idea ... if someone is bugging me so mucccch .... I am thinking of killing myself ....... I'M GONNA KILL THEeeeeM."

I was stunned by the clarity of that thought.

He may have been insane ... but apparently he was not stupid.

JayDubya · July 29, 2017

What a tragedy all the way around. Atleast now she has paid for her sins...

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 29, 2017

The best way to not have any SPIES ...

... is not do anything that needs to be SECRET !

b4ucuhear · July 29, 2017

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

and I saw good friends lied to back in 1980 as a way to get them to try to turn in their friends, and I saw political scheming behind the scenes that would have even scared off a lot of good Bethelites if they had been able to see what was going on in closed doors right around them.

Unfortunately, that wasn't just true back in the '80's. I have seen the same thing and so have others - and it's not just true of NY Bethel. The trick for those of us who have lived through and seen these lying machinations is not only to stay faithful to our dedication and respect for the authority of our organization (while being more than aware of things that might destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters), but to help them to stay grounded despite the faith-testing/destroying machinations of men who have something to hide, and who will lie, plot and scheme to protect themselves. To try to help our friends have faith that overall, we are a spiritual organization, not just the political entity proud ambitious men would turn it into.We expect this behaviour in the world, but when men in authority ("angels in Jesus' right hand") act as if they are in Satan's right hand, then most would have a hard time to rationalize what they may see or even experience within the context of their faith - it's just too "out there." But prophetic warnings in Gods Word make clear that this type of stuff will happen - (not just could happen).. It's just that people think it's "negative talk" or something that "allegedly" happens to someone else until it happens to them.

I have a lot of respect for mature, battle-hardened/wisened Christians who in a spiritual sense, are like the valiant mighty men of old who faced dangers from outside and within in defence of pure worship. Although I love also my "weaker" in faith brothers and sisters who would rather act as if these things can't/don't exist or even acknowledge it, I wouldn't want to be like that - in "pretend world." I have always wanted to know the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" - even when it is uncomfortable - at least it's real and I know who/what I am dealing with. We can easily accept there will be wickedness from Satans system. Not so easy when it's from within "Jehovah's organization." But those who have this "tested quality of our faith" are a living testimony that these things are survivable, doable, and they can even maintain their joy in serving Jehovah stronger and wiser than before.

TrueTomHarley · July 29, 2017

This system of things has failed its young people in countless ways, with the predictable result that they are committing suicide in record numbers. Suicide rate of that age group has tripled since the 1950's. One Millennial site puts it: "Every generation uses the ceiling of the generation before them to become their floor to build off of. Instead, it feels like our generation is dodging the crumbling remains of the ceiling exploding above us." (allgroanup.com) Exactly.

That being the case, it is misguided to try to impede the one organization proclaiming the solution from the Bible. If they ceased doing it, there is no one else to take over. So plain does this seem to me that I have sometimes crossed a line and asserted it is done for exactly that reason: to prevent the proclaiming of God's kingdom - remarks that have not gone down well in all quarters. But it seems either that or a cutting off of one's nose to spite one's face. it seems either that or the 'unreasoning animals' of Peter's description who act contrary to their own interests.

I used to love giving the talk: 'Acquiring a Heart of Wisdom.' I led off with the by-now-trite illustration I've heard of how treasure-seekers dig through the dirt to find the tiniest bit of diamond, and how foolish it would be to reverse it - dig through the diamonds to find the tiniest bit of dirt. I then stated that, nonetheless, we would be doing exactly that for the next 45 minutes, since, with any time in the faith, you are going to come across some dirt,, and if you are not prepared, you will be floored, for it is the one place you do not expect to find any.

Then I reveled in tearing things apart for 45 minutes, both in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I hit my stride with Revelation 2 and 3, considering absolute basket cases of congregations, guilty of every horrible thing, and yet they were still congregations. The idea was to encourage the audience to have a realistic outlook on what they will always eventually encounter anywhere there are people.

Arguably, mature ones here who sometimes veer into discussing organizational flaws are not impeding anything, but by 'shining the bright light of journalistic truth' are encouraging everyone to shape up. Though that sometimes works, as often it is as when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches. They don't stop being cockroaches when you do that. They just go somewhere else.

Arguably, everyone is doing just fine here, and it may even benefit some opposers to hear frank admissions of faults by persons of good motive. However, it is another thing entirely to 'smuggle' confidential stuff, whatever that may be, so that Jay can put it on his website. He has pretty well demonstrated where his interests lie.

JTR, the strangest of all birds to me, regales us tirelessly with war scenarios about the boldness and courage and glory of men who SACRIFICED THEIR ALL in the greatest theater of existence. He would be shot in a heartbeat as a traitor if he carried on there as he does here. Does he think the military generals that sent thousands into battle were above the petty miscues that he lambastes others for here?

All this is not to be unkind to the young woman in question, who I did not know. She is caught up in the spirit of the age, most likely, that holds that revealing faults is somehow a sacred quest - that only good can come of it. Even Jay's breathless banner conveys his enthusiasm for tearing down: it is a SPECIAL REPORT! Just like the banning of the entire religion merited a SPECIAL REPORT on the broadcast site. It is not hard to see whose interests he serves.

It's regrettable, of course, but hardly a special report, as though she was a freedom fighter lost in the most noble of causes. Otherwise, every downed soldier would also merit a special report, every millennial suicide would also merit a special report, and whoever they last engaged with would merit special attention as the villain of our age.

Can they get insular at Bethel? Can there be intrigues? Of course. It is the common bane of people. But I am loath to offer counsel because A.) I'm not qualified, B.) I don't have 5% of the information they do, C.) it's not my place, D.) Even when I identify a problem, that does not mean I have any idea how to fix it. The world's obsession with firing people for miscues results only in inexperienced clods running show - Jesus fired only Judas, E.) I don't think such matters are fixed though the democratic means of public journalism. It hasn't worked that way in the general world; drawbacks are as numerous as successes, and on balance, it is no better than hoping you get a nice king and not a mean one. F.) I tend to think these matters are self-correcting. If it truly is something from God, as I conclude it is based upon the proclamation of truth that they alone spearhead, then entities other than me will take care of troubles.

b4ucuhear · July 29, 2017

It is one thing to speak frankly and honestly (rather than live in "pretend world") while also contributing to the spiritual welfare of our brothers and sisters. Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad. On the other hand, it's another thing to have an agenda. An agenda to only tear down and direct people away from Jehovah's organization. That paints with too wide a brush and denies all the good that is done and can yet be done.

One conspicuous omission I see from all these cowardly nay-sayers, sniping from behind the safety of a computer screen, is: What are you offering that is better? What religion are you in that is so much better? Let's examine your beliefs publicly and see if it stands the same level of scrutiny you hold us to. While we are obedient to Christ's command to preach the good news world wide, what are you offering? Let me guess: Bingo, bake sales and bazaars...?

Bible Speaks · July 29, 2017

My XFriend, an Elder, Pioneer and well liked in the Congregation showed this attitude to me. As a Health Counselor and Bible Student for over 60 years I tried my best to see his wrong attitudes. I saved his life once unknowingly. Yet, as you see many will manifest more so in this time of the end. Sadly, he left Jehovah was expelled. Knew the Truth over 24 years yet his attitude towards those in authority was very wrong for he said he "knew to much." Who is perfect? Yet, Jehovah is using imperfect men to fulfill his will and purpose. We live for Jehovah or we die for Jehovah. Many will come and go especially now so close to the end. Hear news? Disregard it if not Up building as we KNOW this may get worse. Let Jehovah expose those wicked as he did this man. As Christ is the Head of the Congregation we need not worry but let go, have patience and matters will be discovered and dealt with. Trust in Jehovah the God of Tender Mercies and Christ the Exemplar of our faith. Times will get worse, take your stand now! Yes, it was very hard for me with this ExFriend and ExElder.

Jehovah rewards the faithful. If they repent and turn back Jehovah will wait. If not read the rest of 2 Peter 2. My favorite Moto is; "Have no fear, Jehovah is near." May you have Peace and Blessings from Jehovah!

The Second of Peter 2:1-3, 8-22.

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However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you.These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

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Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.

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Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping."

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for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them.

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So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment,

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especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority. Daring and self-willed, they are not afraid to speak abusively of glorious ones,

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whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, out of respect for

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Jehovah.

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But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed, speak abusively about things of which they are ignorant. They will suffer destruction brought on by their own destructive course,

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suffering harm as their reward for their own harmful course. They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living, even in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you.

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Their eyes are full of adultery and are unable to desist from sin, and they entice unstable ones.They have a heart trained in greed. They are accursed children.

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Abandoning the straight path, they have been led astray. They have followed the path of Baʹlaam

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the son of Beʹor, who loved the reward of wrongdoing,

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but was reproved for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden speaking with a human voice hindered the prophet’s mad course.

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These are waterless springs and mists driven by a violent storm, and the blackest darkness has been reserved for them.

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They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error.

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While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for if anyone is overcome by someone, he is his slave.

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Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first.

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It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received.

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What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

How the Voice of Strangers Is Heard Today

Deceptive reasonings. The apostle Paul states: “Do not be carried away with various and strange teachings.” (

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) What sort of teachings? Since they can ‘carry us away,’ it is clear that Paul refers to teachings that undermine our spiritual balance. Who are voicing such strange teachings? Paul told a group of Christian elders: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (

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) Indeed, today as in Paul’s day, some individuals who were once part of the Christian congregation now attempt to mislead the sheep by speaking “twistedthings”—half-truths and outright lies. As the apostle Peter puts it, they use “counterfeit words”—words that resemble truth but that are actually as worthless as counterfeit money.—

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.

Peter further exposes the methods of apostates by stating that they “will quietly bring in destructive sects.” (

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) Just as the thief in Jesus’ illustration of the sheepfold does not enter “through the door but climbs up some other place,” so apostates approach us in stealthy ways. (

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) What is their aim? Peter adds: “They will exploit you.” Indeed, no matter what apostates may say to the contrary, the real aim of intruders is “to steal and slay and destroy.” (

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) Beware of such strangers!

JW Insider · July 29, 2017

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

We expect this behaviour in the world, but when men in authority ("angels in Jesus' right hand") act as if they are in Satan's right hand, then most would have a hard time to rationalize what they may see or even experience within the context of their faith - it's just too "out there."

So true. It's hard to imagine what kind of "spirituality" can live alongside certain kinds of sin and certain kinds of personalities.

Most people go into the various Bethel branches, at about age 19 and 20, rather naively, and usually just a few short years after their baptism and with an average of more than a year of pioneering. The statistics favored those who were 'raised in the truth' rather than recent converts. One of the first things we were told, jokingly by Brother Couch and Brother Sydlik in the "welcome speech' is that Bethelites were divided into two groups, "Newbies" and "BAs" (those with a "Bad Attitude). Then we were reminded that this wasn't a joke by Bethelites who had already been there a year or two. The direct implication was that it didn't take long before we would all become jaded.

I went in on the cusp of a changeover from a 4-year commitment to just a 1-year commitment. Those who were serving out the last year or so of a 4-year commitment were supposed to be the worst BAs (although with the changeover, there was no stigma to a 2 or 3 year Bethelite leaving early, as there had been previously). If you went home early prior to that, it was considered the same as a dishonorable discharge from the army. And worse than that, there had just been a dismissal of 50 or more (all at one time) who had been accused of homosexuality. It was right after that that the 1-year commitment was offered, but no one wanted to leave early in the midst of that, for fear of what the congregation back home might think.

On the first day I got to Bethel, my temporary roommate stole a couple hundred dollars from me, as he was just going back home after 4 years. On my last day of Bethel, I discovered that my storage locker, unused for several years, had been broken into and my valuables had been stolen. I never thought to check my storage locker even though Brother Knorr made at least a weekly announcement of Bethelites dismissed for theft over a period of several months.

But all this was very easy to ignore, by just putting your nose to the grindstone and staying busy. As TTH reminds us, it's dirt among diamonds. I found diamonds by the dozen, and would have never focused on the dirt. And of course every diamond itself has imperfections, too. I could not have asked for better assignments at Bethel. I didn't deserve any of them, and I loved it every single day. Even those dark days of 1980 that seemed surreal, didn't change my resolve to continue to just try to be the kind of person who was like those whom I liked to be around.

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

The trick for those of us who have lived through and seen these lying machinations is not only to stay faithful to our dedication and respect for the authority of our organization (while being more than aware of things that might destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters), but to help them to stay grounded despite the faith-testing/destroying machinations of men who have something to hide, and who will lie, plot and scheme to protect themselves. To try to help our friends have faith that overall, we are a spiritual organization, not just the political entity proud ambitious men would turn it into.

As I got a little older I realized that part of helping others stay grounded is to stop keeping everything to myself, and just admit the faults we've lived through. And I think that we can help others even by admitting the specifics (up to a point). The reason is that others who have gone through something unexpected might never guess that others have gone through something similar. It might give them a bit of relief that they are not going crazy or being singled out for mistreatment or just to know that others really can sympathize.

There is always an element of concern over the fact that some are stumbled by dirty laundry, but that's why I've mentioned before that a semi-anonymous discussion forum (for me) is a much better choice than trying to sympathize in the congregation setting. Many of those who are hurt by mistreatment from those they trusted have clearly turned to discussion forums like this one. (Actually, I saw several of that sort on a bigger discussion forum and was terrified for them that they were being eaten alive by a a lot of unruly ex-JWs, proud to call themselves "apostates.")

Rather than fight the noise on that larger forum, I ran across this one, and think, so far, that it has a fair balance, and that even ex-JW and non-JW "opposing" voices are fairly good at self-moderating here. Someday, this forum will probably no longer meet the same standards it meets now and I'll either go back to silence, or go looking around for another outlet. Many won't agree, but I think that sharing openly and honestly is a loving thing to do for those who might be looking for a sympathetic or empathetic ear. That goes for those concerned about issues of justice and issues of doctrine and healthful teaching. I think this is why the Bible reveals the flaws, even of people at the highest levels of responsibility. (Noah, Moses, Jephthah, Saul, David, Solomon, . . . Paul, Peter, James, and John).

I'm sure some are annoyed that not everyone here spends 100% of their time encouraging loyalty to all the long-standing traditions, and bureaucratic processes. Some apparently only want to encourage complete obedience to any and all suggestions from the Governing Body and apparently think anything less is some kind of apostasy. We have congregations for that kind of encouragement. We have meetings where we specifically study the current thinking of the Governing Body and support it through prepared questions and answers and reading of published material. The congregation is no place for open questioning of current doctrines and procedures.

4 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or at least a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad

Well put!

b4ucuhear · July 29, 2017

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

others who have gone through something unexpected might never guess that others have gone through something similar. It might give them a bit of relief that they are not going crazy or being singled out for mistreatment or just to know that others really can sympathize.

I was trying to say similar, but I think you have expressed it better. 2 Corinthians 1:4 applies here. But those who need comfort won't get it if everyone pretends it doesn't exist - and it really doesn't for most people. Who in the congregation would even believe you, or even want to? The answer is: nobody - unless they have seen and been through it themselves. Fortunately for me, I knew very strong and zealous brothers of many years who shared their experiences with me which was of great encouragement because as you correctly stated it provided "relief I wasn't going crazy." But they wouldn't go talking about these things just to anybody in the congregation. It's too outside the realm of experience for most. We are encouraged to overlook the "imperfections" of others, which is scripturally loving and appropriate. But what we are alluding to is much more than some garden variety imperfection. These are often disfellowshipping offences and other forms of badness.

I wouldn't think everyone reading this would believe/agree with this thread. But for those of us who have had to come to terms with some pretty hairy stuff, your expressions above ring true - spot on in fact.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 30, 2017

2 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

My question would be, when did Jehovah Witnesses start relying on “apostate” NEWS by Johnny the Bethelite, and anything this EX-MEMBER has to say about the Watchtower in his blog,

Well, AllenSmith ... and I assume you ARE Allen Smith, just trying a little deception ... (If I am wrong, please correct me...):

People rely on news where they can find it. Truth is where you find it .... especially when starving for truth!

The WTB&TS ONLY reports news that make them appear noble, and pure, and innocent and rightous ... and they are human beings just like all others, except that they NEVER report anything that might reflect on their IMPLIED claim of absolute competence ... and they NEVER apologize for any harm they cause by pretending to be experts on everything, misquoting references ( often with ellipsis ... to deliberately obscure the real context of a quote..).

Like the old Soviet newspaper PRAVDA, and the last story in today's Watchtower ... they gloss over general disasters with an obscure reference, because ONE couple was able to adapt, AND ALL NEWS ABOUT THEMSELVES .. IS GOOD NEWS!

Fine if you are a Soviet Commissar, that is to be expected but .... everybody in Russia knew AND KNOWS the glorious worker's paradise was AND IS anything but .... except the IGNORANT, the delusional, and the stupid.

Like Charles Taze Russell said in the very first copy of the Watchtower ... IF Satan himself told you something that was the truth ... it would STILL be the truth, irregardless of the source.

Over the years, with their HIDING of relevant information, OBSCURING relevant information, and making up prophesies and types/antitypes that had absolutely NO basis in reality, generating artificial fear and anxiety over "end-times" predictions ... and then weasel-wording around the facts that such things were ever said .... and the list goes on, and on, and on, and on .. ad nauseum ... to directly answer your specific question ....

"My question would be, when did Jehovah Witnesses start relying on “apostate” NEWS by Johnny the Bethelite, and anything this EX-MEMBER has to say about the Watchtower in his blog"

THIS IS WHEN.

NOW.

Oh .... and thank you for monitoring the many apostate websites to verify the source of YOUR research.

TrueTomHarley · July 30, 2017

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Well, AllenSmith ... and I assume you ARE Allen Smith, just trying a little deception ... (If I am wrong, please correct me...):

Nope. Just me again, big boy, in yet another guise. So is Allen. So is O'Maly. "Was I not having fun?"

Actually, every one of them is me, except @The Librarian. And I once dated her. You should have seen her when she would don her big round horn-rimmed librarian glasses. What a woman she once was! But when I proposed marriage, she turned me down, saying she wanted to pursue a life of knowledge and books.

It would have served her well to admit she was human, for a change. Just look at what has become of her, the old hen.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"Newbies" and "BAs"

What becomes of the BAs post service, to your knowledge? Do they remain or leave the faith? Does their BA intensify or mitigate?

b4ucuhear · July 30, 2017

23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Arguably, mature ones here who sometimes veer into discussing organizational flaws are not impeding anything, but by 'shining the bright light of journalistic truth' are encouraging everyone to shape up. Though that sometimes works, as often it is as when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches. They don't stop being cockroaches when you do that. They just go somewhere else.

I'm hoping that the purpose of posting isn't just to expose organizational flaws - it isn't in my case anyway. It's not fair for members of a family just to air dirty laundry. It seems apparent that Jay Witness has a bad agenda and as one poster mentioned in effect, we shouldn't believe everything opposers say. It is more to get us thinking about our own attitudes toward wrongdoing we may face from within the organization. Some seem to have a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" as if considering anything "negative" from within is somehow being disloyal or disobedient. "Only draw attention to good things; ignore anything bad/negative so as not to be discouraging." Question: Is that the example Jehovah set for us? Do you get the impression from reading his Word that in his organization (both heavenly and earthly) nothing bad ever happened? What about Jesus? Did he pretend badness/flaws didn't exist both in Jehovah's organization at the time (the Jews) or even among his followers? Or what about later when the Christian congregation was established...? Or what about the information published by the F&DS today? (i.e. chapter 28 of the Proclaimers Book: Testing and Sifting from Within). Can this all be just "airing dirty laundry?" But yet, some feel if we consider these realities, it's somehow bad. To be clear: No one is suggesting a steady diet of negative experiences, so why consider them at all? To use your illustration: "...when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches...they don't stop being cockroaches...they just go somewhere else." When is that true? Whenever you look the other way and pretend they don't exist. Usually, when people go to the trouble of shining a light on something it is to do something about it. Otherwise, they just continue to exist - as you have correctly mentioned - and even proliferate. So, of course, we have a scriptural system in place whereby we don't just look the other way when we encounter wrongdoing. We report it and even when justice may take years, decades or even lifetimes, we leave matters in Jehovah's hands since we have fulfilled our personal obligation and not take matters into our own hands.I don't see anyone suggesting a mutiny for the organization to change here. Is that the end of the story though? What about in the meantime when we see people being stumbled or deeply troubled by something, THEN what is our obligation? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or apply God's counsel to us at 2 Corinthians 1:3, 4: "Praised by the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all out trials so that WE MAY BE ABLE TO COMFORT OTHERS IN ANY SORT OF TRIAL WITH THE COMFORT THAT WE RECEIVE FROM GOD." Some of us have seen and experienced things that would assuredly stumble others (I don't even tell elders or Circuit Overseers because the problem is not whether they would even believe me anyway ((they wouldn't)), but rather, what if they DID believe me? (I wouldn't go around blabbing about this stuff anyway). They would possibly be stumbled - even though they may THINK they have "seen everything." Some of these things are WAY outside the box. Things people wouldn't even think would exist or call to mind as a possibility. That is why those specifics are not being mentioned here. The fact is, none of these things as bad as they may be should stumble anyone - they haven't stumbled us and we have survived. But often what makes these things (although rare) survivable is the kindness, understanding, validation, acceptance and love of those who really have been there. Who can understand and help one make sense of things they thought could never happen because "angels would cull out whatever would stumble anyone." (they misunderstand the import of that verse in Matthew and so have unrealistic expectations of what should happen.) One of Jehovah's provisions to help us, is the support we get from our brotherhood. They can be a personal lifesaver and comfort that you wouldn't normally get from a magazine or public talk

July 30, 2017

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Nope. Just me again, big boy, in yet another guise. So is Allen. So is O'Maly. "Was I not having fun?"

True! It’s like “Peter” (owner) dismissing, the majority of accounts here are “fake accounts”?

Even This “Virginian” has generated many sub accounts.

(A) Jay Witness

(B) James Thomas Rook

(C) Shiwii

(D) JWinsider

(E) Witness

(F) Etc.

I mean, when one gets disfellowshipped and kicked out of Bethel about 30-40 years ago? It’s time to let it go! This agenda will NEVER have a negative impact in the Watchtower, no matter how apostasy is morphed. Fake news is fake news, what’s so wrong with exposing it!

It’s just like “Lindy” trying to hide one’s true identity. It’s the internet; it will never happen.

July 30, 2017

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

Some seem to have a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" as if considering anything "negative" from within is somehow being disloyal or disobedient. "Only draw attention to good things; ignore anything bad/negative so as not to be discouraging."

So, basically, what you're saying is, reject everything Jesus taught. I guess he also told the Apostles not to listen to him. Good to know how people think about scripture. Are you going to reject the Watchtower doctrine about 607BC, and go instead with 587BC?

JW Insider · July 30, 2017

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What becomes of the BAs post service, to your knowledge? Do they remain or leave the faith? Does their BA intensify or mitigate?

I wouldn't have more than some anecdotal evidence for just a few.

But there was an expression I heard a couple of times at Bethel, that people should just suffer through their last couple of years to get their four years in, because after that you can "write your own ticket" back home. Even my first roommate who stole the $200 from me used that expression, 'you can write your own ticket.' After sending him a few letters requesting my money back, I sent a letter to the body of elders in his congregation, who wrote back and said they would talk to him, and I'd get the money back. I got it back through them -- and I have always hoped it didn't just come out of their own pocket. So there's a chance that this particular brother lost his ticket.

But I'm guessing that most probably they just became elders in their local congregations back home, and the "adulation" given to them after what they considered 4 years of humiliation helped them get over their old attitudes and put on a new personality.

(Not necessarily related, but there was an expression I heard a later roommate say: "He gave some as bindery workers, some as janitors, some as laundrymen, some as dishwashers . . . .' There were variations of course, but they always focused on the menial, factory work, housekeeping work, etc.

TrueTomHarley · July 30, 2017

4 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Even This “Virginian” has generated many sub accounts.

(A)   Jay Witness

(B)   James Thomas Rook

(C)   Shiwii

(D) JWinsider

(E)   Witness

(F)    Etc.

You are obviously a FALSE PROPHET!!!

THERE IS ONLY ONE JAMES THOMAS ROOK!!! His is a PERSONALITY IMPOSSIBLE TO INVENT!!!!

July 30, 2017

40 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You are obviously a FALSE PROPHET!!!

THERE IS ONLY ONE JAMES THOMAS ROOK!!! His is a PERSONALITY IMPOSSIBLE TO INVENT!!!!

No more than anyone here.

However, personalities are invented constantly to agree with each other. One setup the question, the same one by sub accounts answers it. It's not that hard. And then comes the same likes!!!!!!

Anna · July 30, 2017

58 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

No more than anyone here.

However, personalities are invented constantly to agree with each other. One setup the question, the same one by sub accounts answers it. It's not that hard. And then comes the same likes!!!!!!

You must be Allen Smith then

JW Insider · July 30, 2017

1 hour ago, J.R. Ewing said:

However, personalities are invented constantly to agree with each other. One setup the question, the same one by sub accounts answers it. It's not that hard. And then comes the same likes!!!!!!

I agree.

Signed,

Allen Smith

[Edited to add: Wow! That was the first time I ever "liked" one of my own posts, and it seems to have accepted it! So it turns out I never had to create all those separate accounts after all (with names I could hardly spell anyway, like Gnosis Pithos, etc.)]

Anna · July 30, 2017

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I agree.

Signed,

Allen Smith

That's the first time I've seen you up voting your own comment

JW Insider · July 30, 2017

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

That's the first time I've seen you up voting your own comment

Yeah! I just noticed that I could, and I added a comment to that effect on the post. I know that others had that ability like Bible Speaks and Arch-rival (sp?), but figured that might have been through some special moderator permissions.

Still, it's kind of sad to find out that I might have been talking to myself all this time.

TrueTomHarley · July 30, 2017

And now for the ultimate mia culpa: I am - gasp! - @The Librarian!!!!

I got tossed out of Bethel decades ago for trying to sneak a red-hot bikini photograph, clad only in horn-rimmed glasses, of myself in the Watchtower centerfold. It almost made it out the door, but then some narrow-minded brothers spotted it.

I'll bet it still hangs upon their dorm walls - the sickos!!

I could have been famous - FAMOUS, I tell you. But now I send photos of myself to apostate rags and even they return it unopened!!

JW Insider · July 30, 2017

On 7/28/2017 at 5:36 PM, AllenSmith said:

if it isn't "FAKE"

I'm certainly hoping now that it is, considering the current mood on this thread.

Anna · July 30, 2017

I can up vote my own comments too!! Look!! Maybe I will post a bikini shot of myself next!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 30, 2017

I thought of posting a picture of myself in my designer Jabba-The-Hut

Chain Mail Link Bikini, but I didn'a want to stumble anyone.

People are NO FUN when they fall right over, ripping out their eyes.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 30, 2017

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I got tossed out of Bethel decades ago for trying to sneak a red-hot bikini photograph, clad only in horn-rimmed glasses, of myself in the Watchtower centerfold. It almost made it out the door, but then some narrow-minded brothers spotted it.

In February of 1974 it was reported that Phyllis Diller had been a Centerfold in the Watchtower magazine, and she commented, if memory serves. "That was the only Centerfold I could make!"

It disturbed me so much that even today I have five naked five females and two naked males running around my home, and lying about in repose on cushions about the house ... if you don't count their collars and rabies tags.

The paws that refresh!

July 31, 2017

If I am, then “Pete” I must be JWinsider, Anna, James Thomas Rook, b4uchear, and anything else you want to call yourself, Ha! Ha!

But, please, no bikini shots, my eyes couldn't stand for it!!!!!

SuziQ1513 · July 31, 2017

I find it so sad that a young sister took her own life (if it's true). At 24 yo her life was just starting. I can't help but think of a time when I worked for State government at the Capitol (actually the building behind it). A woman was so distraught about trying to get some legislation passed (it had something to do with a victim being warned when the perpetrator was released from prison). Her attempt to find some justice resulted in her going to the top floor in the Capitol bldg and jumping. She had to splatter herself in the rotunda to get attention to her plight. I wonder if this young sister felt the same way. Coupled with the shunning, life must have seemed overwhelming. I left the Mormon church because I didn't like the organizational style (really their teachings, doctrines drove me out first) which is so similar to the Watchtowers, the only difference is that I know the Truth from the Bible which anchors me and gives me hope that Jesus will clean house if there is "something stinking in Denmark". John Bradshaw (author) stated, "you're as sick as your secrets". I believe that. If DF'g is used to protect secrets and not the congregation, many will stumble and some will become active haters. Df'g seems to be our Achilles Heel. BBC just ran a story the other day about 2 DF'd JWs. It was outrageously untrue (i.e.: we DF for not attending the Memorial, leaving an abusive mate, etc) and I noticed it's now posted to Youtube. Could something designed to protect us be the very thing that persecutes us?

TrueTomHarley · July 31, 2017

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm certainly hoping now that it is, considering the current mood on this thread.

If the tone has turned comedic, it is because this is at root a farce with a decidedly tragic outcome.

@Jay Witness's friends try to recruit Tom Cruise on their mission to take out the Watchtower. Tom Cruise turns them down, not because the mission is impossible, but because it is ridiculous. He knows they are mostly hacks trying to settle old scores and work off grudges - who should have moved on in life ages ago. So they recruit a young woman, who they knew or should have known, had some instability to her personality, and they manage to secure her cooperation. 'Don't worry. If you or any of your friends are caught or killed,' they tell her, 'if that happens, we will issue a SPECIAL REPORT!' Did they try to set up their poster at her funeral?

So she rifles through the confidential files and is caught. Jay appears flabbergasted that headquarters is not cool with this. They 'interrogate her' for two days - it's all he can do to refrain from saying they waterboarded her. The 'interrogation' was so grueling that she reported for a second day. On the second day, it was discovered that her pilfering was not for some innocuous cause or due to some misunderstanding, but to spirit whatever she found to Jay's friends who have dedicated their lives to working against kingdom interests. Bethel showed her the door.

"It was reported that when she arrived home, her Jehovah's Witness family and friends treated her terribly," Jay's SPECIAL REPORT tells us, as though they should have been cool with it or even commended her. "Treated her terribly' is a bit vague, isn't it? Look, they probably were not happy with her, but the point is, Jay can't even be bothered to check on that, so eager is he to besmirch his enemies. "It is reported" they "treated her terribly" is enough.

If Jay's friends must assign blame for the young woman's death - beyond the young woman herself - surely it is they themselves they should point to. Recruiting someone once a fine servant of Jehovah, perhaps someone dismayed upon finding all was not Santa and the elves - that they were real people there at Bethel, instead - and using her for their own ends. I'm tired of their hate. And now it has cost the life of a young woman.

Many of these ones have turned to atheism, so they are beyond all question "fighters against God." Some higher up here once told me I should use honey talking to these people, not vinegar. I am not able to do it. "Can't we all get along?" he apparently felt. No. We can't.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 31, 2017

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Some higher up here once told me I should use honey talking to these people, not vinegar. I am not able to do it. "Can't we all get along?" he apparently felt. No. We can't.

Remember what happened when Jack Nicholson as the President of the United States, in the movie "Mars Attacks" entreated the Martians "Why can't we all just ....... get along?"

ack ack ack ack ack ack ack ack ....

TrueTomHarley · July 31, 2017

On 7/30/2017 at 9:20 AM, J.R. Ewing said:

Even This “Virginian” has generated many sub accounts. (A) Jay Witness (B) James Thomas Rook (C) Shiwii (D) JWinsider (E) Witness (F) Etc.

The reason it is not important to know specific identities is that they are but actors in a play (and one of them does not belong on the list at all, IMO). Take one of them out and they are immediately replaced by another.

It is the play we are watching. You don't have to know the names of the actors to follow the play. It can even be a distraction if you do. The roles were laid out long ago in the Book and various actors audition for those roles. It doesn't matter specifically their names.

As much as I like to kick these guys in the teeth (verbally) whenever they rear their filthy heads on a site that purports to be a gathering spot for Witnesses - because if Scripture means anything, it is that fighters against God will not fare well at play's end - that does not mean that I know who is who. I am like a doctor who can only address the symptoms. Even when you take the one off the list who I think should be off, the remaining four are not the same.

What anyone must be alert to is Hebrews 6:4-6: "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

I don't presume that I can tell who this verse fits and who it doesn't - especially online. Is a given opposer in this category or has he merely been influenced by someone in this category? Impossible to tell. All I can do is address symptoms. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be addressed.

Some of them say that they were once hurt. Who am I to try to deny or minimize that? I don't. All I can note is that Revelation 2 and 3 makes clear that congregations of the first century experienced blemishes at least as bad as is claimed by some happens today, yet continued to be congregations. It is Paul saying that in any house there are vessels for uses both honorable and dishonorable. There comes a time when one must suck it up and move on - either stay or leave, but move on.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 31, 2017

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is a test, it is ONLY a test ... had this been a real Nuclear attack, you should have bent over and kissed your butts goodbye!

TTH:

In the context of your excellent essay above, can you please give some specific examples of EXACTLY how a person would " ... nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

The only example I can think of is in Catholic Hospitals where they have an emaciated statue of "Jesus" nailed to a cross you have to look at from your hospital bed. I spent a lot of time in Catholic Hospitals in my youth, and the only comfort I got is that the emaciated "Jesus" on the wall looked sicker than I was.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What anyone must be alert to is Hebrews 6:4-6: "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

What does that really mean ... with some REAL LIFE CONTEMPORARY EXAMPLES of EXACTLY how it is stated?

For those in Rio Linda, that means it is DIRECTLY related to the thread of the discussion, and not just a "grabbed-out-of-the-air" scripture used as a bludgeoning tool.

Thanks,

JTR

Anna · July 31, 2017

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If the tone has turned comedic, it is because this is at root a farce with a decidedly tragic outcome

I find that once we have covered all there is to cover about a certain subject some of us (me included) resort to silliness as a way of concluding and signalling that anything else added will probably just be blah blah. But on that note, and contrary to what I have just said (lol) I would like to add a couple of things which no one explicitly mentioned although it was alluded to by True Tom, and that is the amateur awfulness of the actual website that this information came from. I have seen many an apostate website, but this must be one of the craziest.

I watched one of the videos on there; a demonstration outside a KH on memorial night, and one of the demonstrators holding up a banner with Jesus’ words at John 6:52 ““Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves” was being interviewed and asked why this was her favourite scripture. With a passionate voice, barely choking back the tears, she replied “because Jehovah’s Witnesses are meeting all over the world...and there’s very, very few people who will be partaking.... because they have been told not to. They are kept out of heaven! I want them to see that it’s ok, that Jesus said we should do it. Please do it”. Is that one of the “truths” that is being revealed*? Oh please! (Of course there were other banners including "child abuse" but all the comments were just as uninformed).

Of course people are entitled to their opinion. But that website is the most awful, uninformed and boring thing I’ve ever seen. Not worth looking or listening to as there is very little that’s even relevant. It’s just filled with opinionated nonsense, and for someone to take their life over it, THAT is the real tragedy!

To top it all, the caption on their front page says:

“Our mission is to expose the real truth* behind the destructive cult known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. Active Witnesses are discovering the real "truth" and are now realizing that there is life after The Watchtower”.

What does that even mean? (rhetorical question that doesn’t need answering) But isn't that ironic? For that young woman there was evidently no life after the Watchtower......

TrueTomHarley · July 31, 2017

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Of course people are entitled to their opinion. But that website is the most awful, uninformed and boring thing I’ve ever seen. Not worth looking or listening to as there is very little that’s even relevant. It’s just filled with opinionated nonsense, and for someone to take their life over it, THAT is the real tragedy!

Back when I first began blogging, there was a fellow with initials DH who was a legend - albeit a somewhat embarrassing one - among apostates. Mention Jehovah's Witnesses anywhere and he was there with vitriolic, usually irrelevant comments. One I went to his own page. Prominently he offered his services for expert testimony in any anti-Witness lawsuit AND expert witness against the anti-depression pharmaceutical industry, apparently not realizing that each offer undercut his credibility for the other.

TrueTomHarley · July 31, 2017

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In the context of your excellent essay above, can you please give some specific examples of EXACTLY how a person would " ... nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

Give me some specific examples of EXACTLY how it was done back then.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · July 31, 2017

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Give me some specific examples of EXACTLY how it was done back then.

I have no idea.... YOU used that scripture to support YOUR thesis.

You need to tell me why THAT scripture applies to the subject YOU were discussing ... If you can't ... it doesn't ... and you condemn yourself of being a "theocratic bully".

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

For those in Rio Linda, that means it is DIRECTLY related to the thread of the discussion, and not just a "grabbed-out-of-the-air" scripture used as a bludgeoning tool.

JTR

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

Woe to those who pride themselves upon modern techniques of REASON and CRITICAL ANALYSIS. Jesus showed disdain for all of them!!!!!.

He declined to be questioned by those who he thought simply wanted to justify themselves. Or who had ill intent. Or who were deliberately obtuse. Did he ever allow himself to be subjected to cross-examination such ones?

He evaded questions. He raised instead counter-questions. He told parables and illustrations, which he rarely explained. He employed ad hominem attacks. He raised strawmen galore. (because God wants men or all sorts to be saved, including straw men)

I can think of only one time he answered directly: when he was asked point blank, under oath, whether he was the Son of God or not. (I assume you are not going to go that way)

I am doing my best to imitate Jesus, that's all. Of course, Jesus can read hearts and people can't. But when someone assaults the internet with 7000 BELLICOSE COMMENTS you can come pretty close!!!!!!!!!!!!

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

Imitating Jesus, here is a counter - question.

Paul called the corrupt religious leader a whitewashed wall. When he learned who he was, however, he apologized, citing 'you must not speak injuriously of a leader of your people.

WITH FAR LESS EVIDENCE OF CORRUPTION, I CAN THINK OF SOMEONE WHO SPEAKS FAR MORE ABUSIVELY OF MODERN DAY LEADERS!!!!! CAN YOU???!!!!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

TTH:

I see that once again you have given a Mel Brooks "History of the World - Part 1" to scatter the field with irrelevant to the discussion you yourself pontificated upon, debris ... but guess what?

DESPITE the whiny obfuscation, you still did not give a single, EXAMPLE of how these words you bludgeon people with ... and in this case a fine BUT IRRELEVANT TO ANY POINTS YOU WERE TRYING TO JUSTIFY WITH THAT SCRIPTURE.

not one!

For those in Rio Linda that means ZERO, ZIP, NADA, GOOSE EGGS.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You need to tell me why THAT scripture applies to the subject YOU were discussing ... If you can't ... it doesn't ... and you condemn yourself of being a "theocratic bully".

You know what a "theocratic bully" is?

I can give you an example ...

PONTIFF.

Or anyone who bullies other people with irrelevant scriptures to support their fantasy agenda. The fact that you have to delude yourself FIRST does not make it better ... it makes it worse.

And your "but Jesus did THIS... and uh... Jesus did THAT" (paraphrased) is a pathetic attempt to hide naked behind a transparent plastic shower curtain.

OK... sigh ... ONE MORE CHANCE .... listen up ye of multiple personalities .....

...here it comes!

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

..... can you please give some specific examples of EXACTLY how a person would " ... nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

.JTR

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

For now, I will imitate Jesus in this regard.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

TTH:

You are not imitating Jesus ... you are trying to justify your actions by hiding behind his robes, while bludgeoning others.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

Could be worse ... could be me modeling my Jabba-The-Hut thong ....

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

And your "but Jesus did THIS... and uh... Jesus did THAT" (paraphrased) is a pathetic attempt to hide naked behind a transparent plastic shower curtain.

tromboneck:

Oh! ... I thought you were talking about the visual of TTH hiding behind Jesus' Robes, naked, wrapped in a transparent shower curtain, while beating up the brotherhood with a specific scripture he could not, or would not give a SINGLE real life example of what it meant.

August 1, 2017

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The reason it is not important to know specific identities is that they are but actors in a play (and one of them does not belong on the list at all, IMO). Take one of them out and they are immediately replaced by another.

Then it seems that Anna, JWinsider, and James Thomas Rook have a different agenda when it comes to wanting to know who Allen Smith is. They openly consort to believe, any new comer to this site is this person.

James Thomas Rook Jr. Well, AllenSmith ... and I assume you ARE Allen Smith, just trying a little deception ... (If I am wrong, please correct me...):

Anna. You must be Allen Smith then

JW Insider. I agree. Signed, Allen Smith

So, your comment on the latter is lacking.

On your other comments. Whether there are ex-witnesses, opposers here, it shouldn’t be critical to expose these people for what their true intent is.

As for active witnesses using this forum to voice derogatory, and slanderous claims just to have a negative impact on the Watchtower, mind you, with their PERSONAL OPINIONS, because of some negative experience they might have had within the Watchtower, then we must first use JESUS words.

But, first, think about the word “HURT” that you outlined. Assuming someone has been hurt within the church, and they wish to voice their concerns here. What then of being “HURT” by others at “work” “out on public” “family” “neighbors”, “friends” “husbands” “wives” “children” I have NOT SEEN any negative, or manipulative responses to the above if it's solely to be

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and concerned. Are you stipulating that a church can be more hurtful, than your average life?

John 8:7King James Version (KJV)

⁷So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The website owner seems not to give equal opportunity for someone who is willing to expose those types of comments that become, a misleading message for the Watchtower. Then, that should have relevance to such opposition since as you stated “Some of them say that they were once hurt” on how these people are not expressing a personal opinion of being hurt, but, instead use this forum to denigrate a society that gives them the freedom to leave anytime they want, but instead misrepresent themselves to sway others with their agenda to have a negative impact not on the society, but scripture.

Ask then, why shouldn’t these people be exposed for having a manipulative agenda?

Witnesses, at one time or another, have been hurt for whatever reason, and usually, as you stated “There comes a time when one must suck it up and move on - either stay or leave, but move on.”, then couldn’t the same be said for the people here? I don’t see the difference unless the exposure is not equal to allow certain people to vent in an unethical way. Remember, scripture is being used. When one manipulates scripture to advance a personal cause, then how does that do any good for someone that visits this site and knows nothing about scripture but instead read disparities by a group of people toward others and their society. Any way you wish to look at this website, it would appear deceptive, then.

Galatians 1:6-12New International Version (NIV)

No Other Gospel

⁶I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— ⁷which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. ⁸But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! ⁹As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

¹⁰Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Where is Jesus words on all of this, “hurtfulness”. Where is GOD in all of this? Once again, why shouldn’t people be exposed for what their true intents are, and what they want to achieve by furthering their negative champagne to ridicule others in the name of scripture? Their “hurtfulness” is generating, “division” and “strife”. To advance their “own” personal agenda, not that of God’s.

Where do you see anything but “bad” in this? There, needs to be a voice of REASON. And people willing to spend their time, exposing these ungodly actions shouldn’t have a “negative” impact on the owner unless this is “exactly” why he is promoting this website. To be controversial just like the media that believe negative news sells just to generate income.

1 Corinthians 1:10-18New International Version (NIV)

A Church Divided Over Leaders

¹⁰I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,^[

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] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. ¹¹My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. ¹²What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas^{[ Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

]}”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

¹³Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? ¹⁴I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, ¹⁵so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. ¹⁶(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) ¹⁷For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

¹⁸For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Timothy 2:24New International Version (NIV)

²⁴And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

Doesn’t Timothy include those that get “hurt”? I appreciate your attempt to defend the indefensible, but the question still stands,

WHERE IS GOD IN ALL OF THIS?

1 Corinthians 3:3-5New International Version (NIV)

³You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? ⁴For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

⁵What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Corinthians 11:17-18New International Version (NIV)

Correcting an Abuse of the Lord’s Supper

¹⁷In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. ¹⁸In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.

For those of you that wish to leave a “DISLIKE”, I’m honored not to be part of the world.

John 15:19English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁹If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

When someone posts an insidious claim, VERIFICATION is the best way to go!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

9 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Then it seems that Anna, JWinsider, and James Thomas Rook have a different agenda when it comes to wanting to know who Allen Smith is. They openly consort to believe, any new comer to this site is this person.

"Openly consort to believe"?

Hahahahaahaaaaaa.

Gimmee a break!

What does that even mean?

It's gobbledegook ... and has no meaning whatsoever.

And there is a difference between a working assumption, curiosity, and belief ...

Anna · August 1, 2017

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Hebrews 10:26-29 explains further: "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth,

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there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left

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but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.

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Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant

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by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"

And 2 Peter 2: 20-22: "Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

Self explanatory I would say

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

Okay, big boy, @James Thomas Rook Jr.have it your way.

Your question was more ridiculous than usual because it completely misses the thrust of Paul's statement. 'If you've been enlightened and have tasted, then have fallen away, it is impossible to move to repentance' is his statement. Was he wrong?

He then goes on to illustrate his point, using the words you quoted as though it was his main idea.

Ask HIM what he meant. It's a side point, anyway.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

Context?

We have about six discussions bouncing around now.

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

, .... because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

In case you have lost track wandering around Booger's Woods ... THIS was what I was asking about ... merely asking for some real life, contemporary examples.

It's like pulling teeth with a screwdriver!

Anna · August 1, 2017

12 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"Openly consort to believe"?

Hahahahaahaaaaaa.

Gimmee a break!

What does that even mean?

It's Allen Smith speak

August 1, 2017

25 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What does that even mean?

It's gobbledegook ... and has no meaning whatsoever.

I'm just following your example

27 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

And there is a difference between a working assumption, curiosity, and belief

I see you accepted the quest to learn!

August 1, 2017

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

It's Allen Smith speak

Perhaps I'm you and you are me!

August 1, 2017

47 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"Openly consort to believe"?

47 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What does that even mean?

It's gobbledegook ... and has no meaning whatsoever.

If English is not your first language? And have difficulty understanding? Please reference an English dictionary or search on the internet.

Openly: without concealment, deception, or prevarication, especially where these might be expected; frankly or honestly.

Consort: 1. habitually associate with (someone), typically with the disapproval of others.

To: expressing motion in the direction of (a particular location).

Believe: 1. accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.

2. hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

10 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

I like this, even if I perceive I am among those being reproved.

The internet is inherently a farce for anything other than dull subjects that evoke no passion. A truly thoughtful remark can be given, followed by the tirade of a complete moron who nonetheless has equal weight. Many branches are represented here, and each branch has sub-branches. Not everyone is 'able to teach' (counsel that was not given to newbies, but to Timothy and by extension those of his spiritual stature and those who would aspire to be but are far from there yet) but all one has to do to claim that right (to teach) here is to show up. Within each branch, some persons are thoughtful and considerate, and some are dogmatic and disrespectful. Adding to the confusion is that people do not necessarily represent themselves honestly, and you never actually know who's who.

One hasn't a clue as to who anyone is other than by scrutinizing their comments, and how many will take the time to do that? Some are here for precisely that reason. Some are here for diversion. Some for a lark. Some to pontificate. Some to build up. Some to tear down. Some to console. Some to provide reason one must be consoled. Some to mix metaphors and references. (Some to offer a time for peace - I swear it's not too late).One person deliberately chooses such a confusing muddle so that he may bare his soul without triggering the response he might get in a more undiluted setting.

The sum total is that this is a comedy. That does not mean that some weighty insights cannot be gleaned here, but the overall tone is not something of a wholesome spiritual diet. There is no spiritual food here. Everyone has their own reason for being here and nobody thinks that they are adding to the Bible canon (well - I suspect some do). Sometimes I like to make serious commentary. Sometimes I like to brawl. Sometimes I like to make jokes. At all times, I am a unpaid slave to @The Librarian, who makes me stack boring books at her stupid library (and I always hated to read). It is a slice of life here and life is often erratic. If you want serious spiritual instruction, hit the books of someone upon whom you can rely. Here is a discussion forum with a riotous mix of participants. It may occasionally take the form of a serious commentary on spiritual matters, but it will not consistently do so.

Christianity is one of the greatest discussion themes of all time, and battling apostates one of the greatest sub-themes of all time. First century Bible writers were obsessed with it, even Jesus in John 10 and elsewhere. Therefore, whoever would assume the mantle of first-century Christianity must also have quality apostates, and none are better than ours. Ours are the most prolific. Ours are the most vitriolic. I am proud of them. The Presbyterians represent true Christianity today? Are you joking? With those namby-pamby 'apostates' of theirs? We've got the best apostates, and paradoxically, I take them as an indication that Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth, for the early Christian community was similarly infested with apostates - and largely for the same reason: people refused to take instruction and submit to discipline. They resisted any efforts to 'impose morality.' They were contemptuous of authority.

A faith too bland to produce quality apostates is too bland to be given the time of day.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

You know of course, that both Dwight David Eisenhower, and Fozzie Bear were Presbyterians?

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

10 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

The website owner seems not to give equal opportunity for someone who is willing to expose those types of comments that become, a misleading message for the Watchtower.

The website owner also looms as a mysterious figure who may be spiritually minded or may not know spirit from a whorehouse. For the most part, I think he sits back and shakes his head at his good luck in attracting such a vociferous rabble to his website.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

That's TWICE you have mentioned "whorehouse" in your posts, that I am aware of, TTH .... aiming your comment at nebulous "others".

..and added to your penchant for vulgarity when describing excrement, and worrying about my toilet functioning correctly, makes me wonder about you, TTH.

You may want to check your belly-button for impacted lint.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

Here in the South (North Carolina, etc.) , you can excoriate someone with no insult intended, if you close the blistering sentence with "... bless his pea-pickin' heart!"

....and speaking of my being a Jabba-The-Hut "10" (..apologies to Blake Edwards..) I like to think I cannot be insulted, but my person is covered with semi-circular marks about the size of a quarter, where people keep "touching" me with eleven-foot poles.

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.and added to your penchant for vulgarity

Though I am not a vulgar man, I am sorely tempted to post a bit of it simply to enjoy the spectacle of JTR screaming over a naughty word while he posts the vicious stuff he does against theocratic direction.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 1, 2017

TTH:

Being vulgar is like being pregnant ... either you ARE ... or you ARE NOT.

When I slice my arm open on a piece of barbed wire, I get angry and exclaim "" OH RANDOM FLUCTUATIONS IN THE SPACETIME CONTINUUM !!! " (*coff*).

.... and OH!, by the way ... *coff* ... facts fall where they are let go ... I have challenged you several times to show ANYTHING I have EVER written about the Brotherhood, GB, etc., that is NOT TRUE ... ( remember the option to choose among my 7,000 or so posts over the past five or so years, Hmmmmm?) and so far .... you folded, when challenged.

Care to "give it a go"?

If I have been wrong I will beg your humble pardon here.

TRUTH ... is not vicious.

TrueTomHarley · August 1, 2017

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and OH!, by the way ... *coff* ... facts fall where they are let go ... I have challenged you several times to show ANYTHING I have EVER written about the Brotherhood, GB, etc., that is NOT TRUE ... ( remember the option to choose among my 7,000 or so posts over the past five or so years, Hmmmmm?) and so far .... you folded, when challenged.

How about mentioning how you were never thrown out when you took advantage of 3-day Regional Conventions, put on at significant expense by the GB and countless volunteers - so as to trash in 7000 comments everything dear to them?

It's rather like when we were invited to dinner at an elder's house. We went, dined, ate all courses, visited with the other guests - and then for the next 12 months bellyached to everyone what rotten chefs they were, how they were trying to poison everyone, how they were truly despicable people - before accepting their invitation for the next year to do the same thing again.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

You are making stuff up out of thin air, TTH ..... puleeeese .. if you want to castigate me for something I have said... MAKE SURE IT IS SOMETHING I HAVE ACTUALLY SAID. you have about 7,000 selections to choose from.

CHOOSE ONE!

For those in Rio Linda, and TTH, that means QUOTE something I have actually written.

August 2, 2017

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The website owner also looms as a mysterious figure who may be spiritually minded or may not know spirit from a whorehouse. For the most part, I think he sits back and shakes his head at his good luck in attracting such a vociferous rabble to his website.

Then, there is no separation between micromanagement and sympathetic management. There should be, so as not to be conflicted when someone criticizes those that criticize the society.

My previous post still stands. So, it shouldn’t be an issue for “Pete” and “Anna” to find equal ground without the “greener concept” having to play favorites just because they have long standing commentators that find themselves misleading the public about the Watchtower with their personal opinion.

Now back to point. Let’s talk about this fake news!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

What fake news? And whatever it is... HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S FAKE NEWS?

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

if you want to castigate me for something I have said... MAKE SURE IT IS SOMETHING I HAVE ACTUALLY SAID. you have about 7,000 selections to choose from.

Hey, big fella! I note again that I have made 692 posts here to your 671.

What's wrong - cat got your tongue?

Yes, I know, I know - 7000 posts total. But they are all on apostate websites where you are merely preaching to the choir.

August 2, 2017

48 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

What fake news? And whatever it is... HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S FAKE NEWS?

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT ISN’T? WHERE’S YOUR SOLID PROOF IT IS. TRY RESEARCH AND INVESTIGATION BEFORE CLAIMING IT IS. IT ALSO HELPS TO KNOW THE UNSCRUPULOUS TACTICS OF JOHNNY O AN EX-MEMBER.

BUT IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN UFO’S, I'LL SELL YOU THE LONDON BRIDGE CHEAP!

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

4 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT ISN’T? WHERE’S YOUR SOLID PROOF IT IS. TRY RESEARCH AND INVESTIGATION BEFORE CLAIMING IT IS. IT ALSO HELPS TO KNOW THE UNSCRUPULOUS TACTICS OF JOHNNY O AN EX-MEMBER.

Far better not to answer the big guy directly, insofar as answering his questions - IMO. They are merely designed to give himself a soapbox to preach from, which he will do in any case. 7000 TIMES!!!!!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

You have never been right about ANYTHING so far, TTH ... the JW-Archive .org has shifted platforms and locations several times ... and once AGAIN you have demonstrated your predilection for irrelevancy when challenged to "walk the walk".

692 times folding you have more pleats than an accordian!

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

And what is this 'Rio Lindo,' already? You say it all the time. Where does that come from?

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

14 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT ISN’T? Â WHEREÂ’S YOUR SOLID PROOF IT IS. TRY RESEARCH AND INVESTIGATION BEFORE CLAIMING IT IS. IT ALSO HELPS TO KNOW THE UNSCRUPULOUS TACTICS OF JOHNNY O AN EX-MEMBER.

BUT IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN UFOÂ’S, I'LL SELL YOU THE LONDON BRIDGE CHEAP!

Ahem...Yoo Hoo! ... I never claimed it was real news ... it was YOU who claimed it was fake news... the burden of proof is on YOU.

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

OOooooHHH ... this is fun .. like shooting

fish in a barrel .... think I will drop in a turtle.

Jehovah's Witness Protection Program .mp3

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

Yes, but what is Rio Lindo? You can even call me dumb for not knowing. What in the world are all those references about?

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

12 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, but what is Rio Lindo? You can even call me dumb for not knowing. What in the world are all those references about?

You even got THAT wrong .... Tommy Tom Tommy Tom Tom ... can you tie your shoelaces without doing a front flip?

Google "For those in Rio Linda".

Try not to misspell it.

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

RIO LINDA IS A RUSH LIMBAUGH REFERENCE!!! it is a poor community of downtrodden people that once was the butt of jokes in Rush's early broadcast days!

THE VERY PEOPLE JESUS INVITED TO COME TO HIM!!! "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you," Jesus invites.

"Come to ME, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will RIDICULE you - WEEK AFTER WEEK AFTER WEEK, IN 6000 OF MY 7000 POSTS!!!" invites JTR!!!

"GIVE ME YOUR TIRED, YOUR POOR, YOUR HUDDLED MASSES YEARNING TO BREATHE FREE, THE WRETCHED REFUSE OF YOUR TEEMING SHORE." What noble sentiments! The very words on the STATUE OF LIBERTY! Could anything possibly spoil them?

YES!!!

"AND I WILL STICK THE LOWLIFES IN RIO LINDA, AND MAKE FUN OF THEM CONSTANTLY!" says JTR!

James Thomas Rook Jr. · August 2, 2017

You are just wrapped too tight, TTH .... and you are going to have a self induced stroke caused by massive irrelevancy.

The people of Rio Linda are NOT offended .. especially since because of the publicity their property values have gone up ... and there is MUCH more to the story than what you superficially gleaned from skimming the low hanging fruit.

You need to get a grip, TTH ... lighten up .... take a break... get drunk ( for medicinal purposes only, you understand...) ... get a grip with BOTHÂ hands!Â

Lay down in the floor and pour a box of puppies on your chest.

..and quit trying to defend the indefensible ... that will give you a HEART ATTACK., or in an anxious fit spend all your days counting your ear lobes!

Lighten up ... you will live a lot longer ... and be a LOT happier!

Â

August 2, 2017

I see, when it gets too hot here, they resort to cyber bullying, good to know this is NOT a witness friendly website as indicated.

You insinuated it was real, now you're backing out? But I can understand the handicap with the proof given in the cartoon. Perhaps aside from an English dictionary, perhaps a ball of yarn can cure that impediment.

Meanwhile, my research differs from the comments posted. But, the burden is on the Poster that finds it necessary to extract information from apostate sites.

Ann O'Maly · August 2, 2017

If 'Johnny the Bethelite' reported this (from ~~his Bethel hidey-hole~~ (more likely) Rick Fearon's closet ) then it must be legit.

Having said that, the mental distress of suddenly being cast out and shunned by family and friends is no laughing matter and, tragically, there have been suicides or suicide attempts by those who have suffered this treatment.

Â

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

7 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

I see, when it gets too hot here, they resort to cyber bullying, good to know this is NOT a witness friendly website as indicated.

NOW you've got it!

Look, it's not as though thoughtful material cannot be found here, but one cannot waltz through as if they were at the assembly hall. Scoundrels lurk everywhere. Having said that, not all threads are created equal, not all are as "hot," and one poster said he thinks the villains keep their heads down to an acceptable degree here.

It probably doesn't help that I call them villains. Gasp! Am I the cyber bully? Some here think so, but no one has shown me the door yet.

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Having said that, the mental distress of suddenly being cast out and shunned by family and friends is no laughing matter and, tragically, there have been suicides or suicide attempts by those who have suffered this treatment.

I don't doubt that and it is a most serious thing. Having said that, suicide is growing in 'popularity' today, especially with the young, and with adolescents it is almost becoming trendy. People are fragile and this system of things appears designed to expose their frailty and exploit it to the fullest degree.

It is last-ditch effort at discipline, to be applied when all else has failed. Aspects of it may be arguable. The general idea is not. The GB is ever conscious of the individual - it is not they who mock the lowlifes of Rio Linda - yet they dare not forget the Jehovah insists upon a clean people of exclusive devotion. It is no mere passing phase with him. The current Bible reading schedule of Ezekiel reveals many examples of this.

Not to equate this with anyone current, but Judas went suicide. No one would say it was the Lord's fault. Stretching the point just a little, one could say his problem was with God's visible organization, not with God himself. Jesus looked pretty human to him, not at all qualified to do what the Messiah was supposed to do. And those yoyos he was attracting! It was just too much. Judas wanted the refined people.

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The people of Rio Linda are NOT offended

Now I am aided greatly knowing the time schedule. Now I know when my arch enemy will post and when he will not.

If right wing radio is on, he will not. He is busy. He must not miss a word.

To be fair to Rush, I would not necessarily classify him as 'right wing.' But if my villain knows the show in such detail so as to pepper each comment with Rio Linda barbs, it is fair to say he listens also to the programs that truly are right wing. His obsession with both the DECLARATIONS of the FOUNDING FATHERS, THE GLORIES OF WAR, and the SACRED RIGHT to bear ARMS is a significant tell.

To do a full disclosure, I also knew about Rio Linda, though not in such detail as to spell it properly. It was a bit of a trap, to see him walk into it with both clown's feet. To be fair, it was not the GLORIOUS VICTORY I had anticipated it might be. Perhaps it merely made me look as petulant as he. But, hey - I'm not writing in the Bible canon.

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

24 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Perhaps a new thread is in order since these topic has been highjacked to debate suicide instead of questionable news from an ex-bethelite

Your move, Allen.

b4ucuhear · August 2, 2017

On 7/29/2017 at 9:13 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

when did Jehovah Witnesses start relying on “apostate” NEWS by Johnny the Bethelite

I had never heard of "Johnny the Bethelite," "Rick Fearon" nor any of the blogs/websites you linked to until I saw your post. That is because I don't go to those places except by accident. But apparently, in direct violation of the clear direction we get from the Faithful and Discreet Slave, you do. Your post is like telling someone: "Hey there is a roaring lion down the path in that cave that wants to kill you. Why don't you go and check it out? In fact, I'll help you along by greasing that slippery slope with a direct link to it." Whose side are you on anyway? It brings to mind a couple of expressions: "A danger to himself and others" and "with friends like that who needs enemies?"

On 7/30/2017 at 9:25 AM, J.R. Ewing said:

So, basically, what you're saying is, reject everything Jesus taught. I guess he also told the Apostles not to listen to him.

Are you kidding me? Someone disagrees with you and you come up with that nonsense? My intention has always been to help people stay active and in the truth, despite the things that have stumbled many. Things that they find hard to rationalize. Things that YOU can't even stand to hear, let alone experience in real life. The fact is, I would have found it very difficult myself had not others patiently and lovingly showed they understood what I was seeing/going through, having experienced it themselves and providing seasoned scriptural advice to make sense of this madness. No one else would have understood and I would have been on my own. I think such ones are a gift from Jehovah. And although some people live in "pretend world," or as most, simply never see this stuff, shouldn't basic common sense tell you that this stuff goes on? When someone is df'd let's say as an apostate/immoral/molester... How long do you think that has been going on for? Just that day? Doesn't reality tell you that at times these (prophesied about) wicked men and imposters were men that were "not whom they appeared to be" for years, decades even? So what (sometimes) happens to the ones who are exposed to such men? Nobody believes them (or wants to believe them) - that's what. Or they are viewed as negative trouble-makers by guys like you. Guys who set themselves up as "keepers of the faith" while ignoring/denying these spiritual "widows and orphans." These little sheep often leave the truth when they are treated like that.

b4ucuhear · August 2, 2017

On 7/30/2017 at 9:34 PM, SuziQ1513 said:

If DF'g is used to protect secrets and not the congregation, many will stumble and some will become active haters.

I won't say anything except that is exactly what would happen.

On 7/31/2017 at 11:07 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

What anyone must be alert to is Hebrews 6:4-6: "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit

This primarily is referring to anointed Christians who have "received the heavenly free gift and become partakers of holy spirit." However, by extension, we also apply it to the great crowd. It would be dangerous however to set ourselves up as being in the judgment seat of God and decide for ourselves that people whom we may disagree with (or are in fact wrong) can't make changes before they die or merit everlasting destruction. It would be pretty dangerous to throw that around lightly in this kind of venue.

On 7/31/2017 at 11:07 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

All I can note is that Revelation 2 and 3 makes clear that congregations of the first century experienced blemishes at least as bad as is claimed by some happens today, yet continued to be congregations.

I don't think anybody is suggesting there won't continue to be congregations, even despite stuff that shouldn't happen. As far as "...experienced blemishes at least as bad as is claimed by some happens today...," I just read those two chapters over and I won't comment on that, just to say I think "blasphemy" would be worse for sure. I couldn't add any further without being too specific.

On 7/31/2017 at 11:37 PM, J.R. Ewing said:

Are you stipulating that a church can be more hurtful, than your average life?

Seriously? Ask a Catholic choir boy...or...

On 7/31/2017 at 11:37 PM, J.R. Ewing said:

Remember, scripture is being used. When one manipulates scripture to advance a personal cause, then how does that do any good for someone that visits this site and knows nothing about scripture

You mean like quoting John 8:7, and from a different translation that you cherry picked to agree with you? The F&DS tell us that the 12 verses at John 7:53-8:11 are spurious and "...have been obviously added to the original text of John's gospel." But having the NWT, you already know that don't you? So to highlight your own agenda you quote a spurious passage from a translation that we don't even use/accept the passage of (except on the side). Another reason some feel that verse is spurious is that it in principle, contradicts God's word - especially when it comes to exposing wrongdoing from within the congregation.

On 7/31/2017 at 11:37 PM, J.R. Ewing said:

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

¹⁸For the message of the cross,,,

What religion did you say you were again? It doesn't read that way in our Bible. (And I won't bother to comment on your omission of verse 19 of 1 Corinthians 11 - as translated in the literal Kingdom Interlinear and pretty well every other Bible.)

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

7 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

However, by extension, we also apply it to the great crowd. It would be dangerous however to set ourselves up as being in the judgment seat of God and decide for ourselves that people whom we may disagree with (or are in fact wrong) can't make changes before they die or merit everlasting destruction. It would be pretty dangerous to throw that around lightly in this kind of venue.

Yes. It is a good reproof. I have endeavored to mitigate that remark elsewhere, saying we never know for sure who that verse fits. But it a point worth repeating.

b4ucuhear · August 2, 2017

On 7/31/2017 at 11:07 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

There comes a time when one must suck it up and move on - either stay or leave, but move on.

Is that what I should have told my sister? My younger sister was sexually molested by an elder. She stayed despite that without making waves, until she started to see other things she found deeply disturbing and then she did "move on" as you say. Actually, she shouldn't have "moved on" because later on, most of the elders (the bad ones) were either removed or disfellowshipped - half of them were apostate (but that's not all they were up to). Of course nobody wanted to believe anything (even with concrete evidence) since they were regulars on the circuit assembly platform and on even on the district convention. It took about 10 years to sort itself out (should have been much quicker considering the evidence), but it did, (although it took other elders to step in and do what actually had to be done.) Still, 1 Timothy 5:24 will prove to be true if you wait, in one way or another.

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

the JW-Archive .org has shifted platforms and locations several times ... and once AGAIN you have demonstrated your predilection for irrelevancy when challenged to "walk the walk".

Yes. Every time @The Librarian has fallen off the wagon. How can you be so insensitive? I was trying to spare her the humiliation, not reminding everyone. She was once a woman of substance, after all. (She still is, but it is from all those donuts - not the same thing)

TrueTomHarley · August 2, 2017

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Of course nobody wanted to believe anything (even with concrete evidence) since they were regulars on the circuit assembly platform and on even on the district convention.

"This ‘superfine apostle’ in the 2 Corinthians 11:5 mold was a big honcho in the HVAC world and would freeze everyone out of the Kingdom Hall because he liked it cool - even locking the thermostat so nobody not under his control could touch it. One elderly sister declared she would no longer attend meetings – where was the love?

"It developed that this man planned to poison his wife so as to move in with another woman, and all the while maintain his position in the congregation. Joe Merlin sniffed him out in a heartbeat. ‘How can you guys be so naïve?’ he cried before one Body of Elders who could not believe what was right before them. But when the dust at last settled, one of them approached him: ‘You’re right, Joe - we are naïve.’ Sometimes Jehovah’s people are naïve. They are the ‘sons of the light’ whom the ‘sons of this system of things’ do end runs around."

From the chapter 'Dirty Rotten Lowlifes' in 'No Fake News But Plenty of Hogwash.'

August 2, 2017

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Are you kidding me? Someone disagrees with you and you come up with that nonsense? My intention has always been to help people stay active and in the truth, despite the things that have stumbled many.

Please, the nonsense comes from the flip-flop you do with understanding the Watchtower, and scripture. It appears JWinsider sold you a bill of goods that you now accept with the year 1914. Then if false applications of scripture are considered learning, find someone that can really teach the proper way to serve in an organization you and others are criticizing. The FACT that you have people like JWinsider, and Anna like your post is proof enough.

Proverbs 12:15-17

August 3, 2017

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Is that what I should have told my sister? My younger sister was sexually molested by an elder.

Child Molestation is a horrific crime by anyone's standard. The Watchtower through decades has given examples through the publications to learn to care for the children. People like "ANNA" believe the governing body was comprised to hold everyone's hand. Did Jesus? Did the Apostles? NO! they gave instruction!!!!!!!

You're NOT the only one that has experienced an act that is detrimental to someone's life. In my culture, regardless of the judicial committee making a decision to keep the Christian Congregation clean, they also advised having the secular authority handle the criminality aspect of this serious situation.

Did your family adhere to such advice? If it wasn't given, Parents have the obligation to pursue a serious allegation. If the police are not able to prove the allegation, then it's time to move on! if an allegation was made by malice to cause harm to another, then, the accused could sue the victim. These are 2 separate issues.

I understand, here, people complain that the Watchtower hides things and that they are Corrupted and give the wrong direction.

1. The responsibility for the children are the parents. Based on Scripture.

2. The Governing Body is there to dispense spiritual food, NOT to PLAY LAWYERS!!!! Based on Scripture, and common sense

3.The Elders are there to keep the congregation clean. Based on scripture.

4. Secular authority policies are dealt with as they are presented. Democratic government.

The problem here is half truths are given to incite. Who gave anyone here the right to decide for another, and speak ill of an organization that adheres to the laws of the land, but most importantly God's law.

Anna · August 3, 2017

54 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

. People like "ANNA" believe the governing body was comprised to hold everyone's hand. Did Jesus? Did the Apostles? NO! they gave instruction!!!!!!!

Yes, instruction is fine, but with this instruction comes honesty. For years we have bashed the Catholic church for shutting their eyes to child sexual molestation. Although our situation is different to that of the Catholic church, we are not immune to those in authority using their position to get away with such things as child molestation, wife beating etc. Although not prolific like opposers would make out, still, in the words of our own organization "one molested child is one too many". The facts are; there have been elders and ministerial servants who have sexually molested children, and who have got away with it for a long time because no one would believe something like this could ever happen in our organization, after all we ARE Jehovah's organization! I do not believe the GB should hold our hands, just admitting this problem does exist in Jehovah's organization would suffice. Sooner or later this admission will be made, but the longer it's evaded, the worse the results will be as there will be a lot of publishers who will wonder why this information has been withheld for so long.....

TrueTomHarley · August 3, 2017

1 hour ago, J.R. Ewing said:

. In my culture, regardless of the judicial committee making a decision to keep the Christian Congregation clean,

He is from far away. "In my culture," he says. Cut him slack on that account, or learn from him.

If he is from Africa, for example, @Arauna once observed that children and young women are raped there routinely with no one at all to stand up for them. Outrage over sexual molestation appears to be a privilege of the monied lands. Imagine how strange a brother from that different place and culture might find this discussion.

Of course, this is just guesswork based upon a phrase and a unique way of reasoning. I may be all wet. Perhaps he is from North Dakota.

SuziQ1513 · August 3, 2017

11 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Perhaps a new thread is in order since these topic has been highjacked to debate suicide instead of questionable news from an ex-bethelite.

Yes I agree!! Please start a new thread. I'm disappointed with the egg and tomato fights here.

11 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

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The Librarian · August 3, 2017

Let's have everyone start to use the threaded discussion area below for their tit for tat petty accusations rather than make posts on the thread....

At least those will be threaded and won't hijack a post thematically.

Could we all learn to post the most substantive "stuff" here as posts and regular comments and side arguments in the threaded comments area?

Thanking everyone in advance.

b4ucuhear · August 3, 2017

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Body of Elders who could not believe what was right before them.

I respect you for that. Knowing bad things can happen yet having the strength of faith and character to stay - as you seem - spiritually strong in the truth. Might I ask you to share with us what enables you to maintain your faith and dedication despite faith testing situations (whether you were personally in that congregation or not?)

51 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He is from far away. "In my culture," he says. Cut him slack on that account, or learn from him.

That's a kind suggestion I hadn't thought of and worth noting. I've been to Africa (much of the world actually), and while I haven't personally witnessed such atrocities, I know they exist there in certain places. You could be right. Maybe that's what's affected him.

b4ucuhear · August 3, 2017

2 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Please, the nonsense comes from the flip-flop you do with understanding the Watchtower, and scripture. It appears JWinsider sold you a bill of goods that you now accept with the year 1914.

Not sure that not being dogmatic about 1914 qualifies as a "flip flop." (In fact I am sure it doesn't - despite how you try to spin it.) Note truthfully that I am not against that date either - as you dishonestly try to make it appear. Here is my take on it and why I have very little interests in dates anyway - any of them. I didn't dedicate my life to a date. Not 1975; not 1922 or several others that haven't panned out; not even 1914. If some tie their faith to that it's up to them. But if Armageddon doesn't come when I expect it; or I don't live to see the fulfillment of earthly promises...that's fine. I'm in good company with many other faithful men who loved and worshipped Jehovah even though they didn't get to see the fulfillment of the reward. I know Jehovah's promises are sure to be fulfilled, and while I believe that time is soon, if it should delay, I'll just patiently wait. That's all. It's not about my salvation anyway. It's about living a life that honours Jehovah and proves Satan a liar - that when things get tough and I experience Job-like tests of faith I'll face those tests with dignity faith and integrity (although some stuff was VERY difficult, so I don't want to sound like more than I am). Job was a better man then me. So was David, Jeremiah, Joseph, Jesus, Isaiah and others whose examples were models for me to follow in dark times.

The Librarian · August 3, 2017

@b4ucuhear please see my last comment in this post....

Your argument / comment has very little to do with the title of this post.

hence... please post it below in the threaded chat area and I will delete the one up here.

Thank you in advance.

b4ucuhear · August 3, 2017

2 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

Child Molestation is a horrific crime by anyone's standard.

While I quoted just the beginning of your post there, I do mean the whole thing. I don't know why you would think I would disagree with anything there. I don't. (SURPRISE!) EXCEPT for your snarky comment about "Anna believing the Governing Body was comprised to hold everyone's hand." Not fair and not true.

b4ucuhear · August 3, 2017

6 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

please see my last comment in this post....

Got it. Sorry. Was typing while you were posting it. Thanks and sorry again.

TrueTomHarley · August 3, 2017

12 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

please see my last comment in this post....

Your argument / comment has very little to do with the title of this post.

hence... please post it below in the threaded chat area and I will delete the one up here.

Thank you in advance.

I have no idea how this works. I did see some announcement about it previously, didn't take the time to grasp it and told myself I would learn it by trial and error if need be.

I figured it was just the librarian trying to get me to do her work for her and her silly dewey decimal catalog.

I will do it (or try, probably) if I understand it........What? Do you mean just starting a new topic?

The Librarian · August 3, 2017

@TrueTomHarley

As you can see. .. popular threads are overtaken (hijacked) and become a mess in a flat thread forum.

hence the threaded replies section below.

I'm thinking we can start to train ourselves to use the flat area to address the actual theme.... and the side conversations between members can go below.

This will take some time to learn for everyone but I think it will be better for all....substantive additional comments or questions above... chats or accusations below.

Help me out training others as well please.

everyone will still get email notifications when replying to another person down there as they currently do.

TrueTomHarley · August 3, 2017

3 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

hence the threaded replies section below.

perhaps this displays differently on different screens. I see no option other than to comment as I have been.

The Librarian · August 3, 2017

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

perhaps this displays differently on different screens. I see no option other than to comment as I have been.

Look for this area below:

Anna · August 3, 2017

24 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Look for this area below:

Where is one supposed to look?? I can't see anything like this...

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24 YEAR OLD BETHELITE WOMAN RECENTLY DISFELLOWSHIPPED FOR APOSTASY COMMITS SUICIDE!

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