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HollyW

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2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Really? *Runs off to look* Holy blunders! You're right! xD

I think so too. It was poorly worded. It would have been better phrased, "The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when  after Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne."

Or better yet, insert the real year (587 B.C.E.) ... and delete the '2,520 year' part. But that's another discussion. ;)

The October thing is to do with Gedaliah's assassination in the 7th month (September/October) and when the remaining Jews fled to Egypt. Russell and Barbour maintained right from the beginning that the '70 years' related to the period when the land was 'desolate, without an inhabitant' and that only happened, according to their interpretation, once the remnant Jews fled to Egypt.

Of course, as we know, Jeremiah's '70 years' related to the nations' servitude to Babylon which began long before Jerusalem's destruction. Not only that, but according to Ezekiel, there were still people living in Jerusalem's ruins in December:

Ezekiel 33:21 - At length in the 12th year, in the tenth month, on the fifth day of the month of our exile, a man who had escaped from Jerusalem came to me and said: “The city has been struck down!”

Ezekiel 33:23-29 - Then the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: 24 “Son of man, the inhabitants of these ruins are saying concerning the land of Israel, ‘Abraham was just one man, and yet he took possession of the land. But we are many; surely the land has been given to us as a possession.’

25 “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “You are eating food with the blood, and you lift up your eyes to your disgusting idols, and you keep shedding blood. So why should you possess the land? 26 You have relied on your sword, you engage in detestable practices, and each of you has defiled his neighbor’s wife. So why should you possess the land?”’

27 “This is what you should say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “As surely as I am alive, those living in the ruins will fall by the sword; those in the open field, I will give as food to the wild beasts; and those in the strongholds and the caves will die by disease. 28 I will make the land an utterly desolate wasteland, and its arrogant pride will be brought to an end, and the mountains of Israel will be desolated, with no one passing through. 29 And they will have to know that I am Jehovah when I make the land an utterly desolate wasteland because of all the detestable things that they have done.”’
 

Ann, you the man!  

When was 606 dropped in favor of 607?  

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Whoops! Maybe what I meant to remember was that he was never "disfellowshipped" which means that technically he is not "officially" an "apo-state." I see that his experience says nothing of being

Allen, Just point out what was said that you believed was wrong. No one is going to understand what your point is if you keep telling people they don't have their facts straight, and then, when y

Can I put an end to this argument (discussion)? On page 50, paragraph 5 and 6 of the book says: "As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1

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14 hours ago, HollyW said:

When was 606 dropped in favor of 607?  

I'm sure Ann knows this, but I just saw the question. It was done in two parts: partly in 1943, and finished in 1944. The best research I've seen on this topic comes from a non-JW who opposes the JWs, but he was never baptized. (AlanF) So no one should technically call him an apo-state. At any rate his research is all true. I've looked up all his resources.

http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html

 

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

It can't be ignored as being of no interest to current JWs since the governing body itself has asked them to picture themselves back in the dining room in October of 1914 when Russell made the declaration that the Gentile times had ended.

You've done quite a bit of research in the WTS history, so this must be something you've found on your own.

One of the first talks I was assigned to give while still a "ministerial servant" was the "Gentile Times" talk. The old outline was pretty much along the lines of the article that Russell had written for George Storrs' Bible Examiner back in October 1876. I prepared the talk in 1977 and had all kinds of questions. I never asked those questions specifically because I didn't think there was anyone I could ask. But I worked with the Art Dept at Bethel, and that turned into a series of research assignments even while I continued full-time work for 4 years in Art. Several of the research assignments required a full reading of the old Watch Tower books. The research also put me in touch with a lot of people who also had their own questions about the chronology. I even found out that several members of the Governing Body believed that many parts of the chronology had to be wrong. Turns out I got the questions answered without ever asking them. I only gave that "Gentile Times" talk once, and since 1977, I have been able to give dozens of different hour talks that don't have anything controversial in them (as far as I know). :/

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And you might well be right, that this is why October has stuck with us. 

Absolutely.

ZWT 1892, Feb. 15, R1372:

The seventy years which followed the overthrow here depicted are frequently referred to as the seventy years captivity, but the Scriptures designate them the seventy years desolation of the land--a desolation which had been predicted by the prophet `Jeremiah (25:11`), saying, "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and this nation shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years." The completeness of the desolation is shown in `verses 8 and 9` of this lesson and also in `2 Chron. 36:17-21`; and although the king of Babylon allowed certain of the poor of the land to remain, and gave them vineyards and fields, yet it was the Lord's purpose that the land of Israel should be desolate seventy years, and so it was. In the same year Gedaliah, whom the king of Babylon had made governor and under whom many of the Jewish fugitives were disposed to return from neighboring countries, was assassinated, and the entire population speedily removed into Egypt for fear of the wrath of the king of Babylon.--`2 Kings 25:21-26`; `Jer. 41:1-3`; `43:5,6`.
 

ZWT 1896, May 15, R1980:

PERIOD OF THE "70 YEARS DESOLATION OF THE LAND."
This period began after Zedekiah's kingdom was overturned when the land was left desolate (`Jer. 40:6-13`; `40:10-18`; `43:5-7`)

Jer. 40 and 43 are about Gedaliah's assassination and the Jews' flight.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

JWTheologian even brought up the reference to those scholars who make a case for saying that the land was never completely desolated, but who claim that there may have been political purposes for speaking of the land as "completely" desolate when it was really only in a "deslolated" condition. Some scholars claim that this would more easily resolve land ownership disputes among the elite when they came back and found squatters. I pointed out to him that this is an interesting point of view but is NOT a Biblical point of view.

There is such a thing as 'prophetic hyperbole.' E.g. 

Zephaniah 1:2, 3 - “I will completely sweep away everything from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.  3 “I will sweep away man and beast. I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked ones; And I will remove mankind from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.

This was just about punishing Judah.

There is some archaeological evidence that areas of Judah remained inhabited throughout the Babylonian hegemony. Desolation/devastation doesn't necessarily mean complete depopulation. E.g.

Nehemiah 2:3 - Then I said to the king: “Long live the king! Why should I not look gloomy when the city, the place where my forefathers are buried, lies in ruins, and its gates have been consumed by fire?” 

Nehemiah 2:17 - Finally I said to them: “You can see what a terrible situation we are in, how Jerusalem lies in ruins and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, so that this disgrace will not continue.” 

The Jews had been repatriated decades before, yet Jerusalem was still considered to be a devastated, ruined place.
 

 


 

 

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

When was 606 dropped in favor of 607?  

The shift really began in the 1943 book, The Truth Shall Make You Free. P. 239:

"In Nebuchadnezzar's time the year began counting from the fall of the year, or about October 1, our time. Since he destroyed Jerusalem in the summer of 606 B .C., that year had its beginning in the fall of 607 B .C. and its ending in the fall of 606 B .C."

O.o  o.O

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On 8/6/2016 at 7:45 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

In the same year Gedaliah, whom the king of Babylon had made governor and under whom many of the Jewish fugitives were disposed to return from neighboring countries, was assassinated, and the entire population speedily removed into Egypt

Thanks for this quote, and others like it. You are right. It shows that they had already pinned a portion of the chronology on Gedaliah right from the start.

 

On 8/6/2016 at 7:45 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

There is such a thing as 'prophetic hyperbole.' E.g. 

That's true. Makes me wonder how we think we really know exactly at what point the "full desolation" started if it was a process that never came true literally, anyway.

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22 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I'm afraid he was.

Whoops! :$

Maybe what I meant to remember was that he was never "disfellowshipped" which means that technically he is not "officially" an "apo-state." I see that his experience says nothing of being DF'd, but then again, I've seen people DF'd for less.

Everything he says about his discussions with Albert Schroeder and John Albu "rings true," perfectly. (John Albu was a brother in NYC, but not a Bethelite) I was put in contact with Albu for access to some of his books and his expertise for research projects.

Alan says:

Quote

Albu, it turns out, was the Society’s top scholar (and apparently their _only_ scholar, after the death of Fred Franz) on Bible chronology and was conversant with Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and several other ancient languages. He’s almost certainly the main contributor to the “Appendix to Chapter 14” in the 1981 book “Let Your Kingdom Come”.

I have believed the same thing, but never knew for sure. I think the general outline of that 1981 book was to be prepared from a couple of older Watchtowers with updates meant to specifically answer new questions raised about Ptolemy's canon and several other sources that Carl Olof Jonsson had written about. I remember that Bert Schroeder, Gene Smalley and others were angry about COJ's manuscript but wouldn't attempt to answer it. It got passed around like a hot potato around the Writing Department for years. Finally, Fred Rusk (the brother who gave my wedding talk) got it as an assignment to produce a Watchtower article in 1980. Rusk knew that the best researchers in-house at the time were Napolitano&Lengtat but he didn't like them because they had been friends with Ray Franz and had helped work on the Aid Book. He let it sit in his office for several months. I had a very strong feeling that it would end up being turned into an assignment for John Albu. John had been open-minded about discussing anything doctrinal, even things controversial up through 1981. But he seemed to close himself off completely in 1981 and for the rest of his life (until 2004), as far as I could tell.

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On 8/1/2016 at 8:29 AM, HollyW said:

Let's take a look at the Bible evidence Russell had been saying would prove him right about the end of the Gentile times. This is from his book called "The Time Is At Hand" which he wrote in 1889:

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove:
 
Firstly
, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.
 
Secondly
, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.
 
Thirdly
, It will prove that some time before the end of the overthrow the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.
 
Fourthly
, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed.
 
Fifthly,
It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their "blindness in part" was to continue only "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.
 
Sixthly,
It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy; and then men will learn to be still, and to know that Jehovah is God and that he will be exalted in the earth. (Psa. 46:20)  The condition of things spoken of in symbolic language as raging waves of the sea, melting earth, falling mountains and burning heavens will then pass away, and the "new heavens and new earth" with their peaceful blessings will begin to be recognized by trouble-tossed humanity.  But the Lord's Anointed and his rightful and righteous authority will first be recognized by a company of God's children while passing through the great tribulation--the class represented by 
and 
on the 
Chart of the Ages 
(see also pages 235 to 239, Vol. I); afterward, just at its close, by fleshly Israel; and ultimately by mankind in general.
 
Seventhly,
It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)--and fully consume the power of these kings.  Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be"--civil and ecclesiastical--iron and clay.

So, these are the events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended.  These events are the evidence that would prove October 1914 was the correct date Biblically for the end of the Gentile times.   

On another thread, these seven proofs were termed "nonsensical gibberish" that was attached to the beliefs of the Bible Students at the time.  So say you one, so say you all?
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Holly quoted: "Nonsensical gibberish"

Well, this is up to the individual to determine isn't it?

It is of no consequence what  "events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended."

What is of consequence is that they did actually end, regardless of the expected events.

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On 9/15/2016 at 4:52 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Holly quoted: "Nonsensical gibberish"

Well, this is up to the individual to determine isn't it?

It is of no consequence what  "events you would be expecting when you imagine yourself in the dining room that day in October 1914 when C.T. Russell announced that the Gentile times had ended."

What is of consequence is that they did actually end, regardless of the expected events.

It was an announcement that was based on what you call “nonsensical gibberish.”  The current governing body of the WTS describes the reaction of Russell’s audience as one of joy and excitement, with “sustained, enthusiastic applause.” Knowing, as you now know, what it was based on, it’s difficult to imagine your reaction being the same as theirs is said to have been. 

In your opinion, Eoin, were these seven proofs nonsensical gibberish to Jehovah and Jesus when they reviewed your religion to determine if its teachings qualified it as a faithful servant to give their household high quality spiritual teachings?

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