God's Kingdom Rules

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

several of us

Who are the us?

 

1 hour ago, HollyW said:

You're absolutely correct that they could not have discerned something that was not there, yet that is exactly what they said they were doing from 1876 to long after 1914.

Do you beleive that Christ became present in kingly power in 1914?

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53 minutes ago, Anna said:

Can I put an end to this argument (discussion)?

A wee bit presumptuous, but thankyou for the quote. 

[HollyW]

7 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Who are the us?

Ann, JW Insider, and now Anna.  Even the cartoon you posted is relevant to us trying to tell you the statement on page 20 is wrong but you won't accept it.  That's why I said what I did about the need for the WTS to tell you it isn't true, that way you might accept what we've been saying.

[HollyW]

16 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Do you beleive that Christ became present in kingly power in 1914?

 First tell me what "present in kingly power" actually means to you and then I'll tell you if I agree because Christ has had kingly power since at least the first century.  Nor do I believe Christ's second advent happened in 1914, if that's what it means to you, so give me some direction here on what that means to you.  Thanks.

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35 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Nor do I believe Christ's second advent happened in 1914

Thanks for being frank @HollyW,  and for indicating your group to include @JWInsider and @Anna along with @AnnOMaly, something I was not aware of.

I understand where you are coming from now.

I have already expressed my understanding of  what "present in kingly power" means to me in connection with Christ on other threads, probably with participation of others in your group, so I will not repeat here.

I can see there's no way we can actually reconcile our viewpoints on this particular thread, as the relationship of Christ's Kingdom to the year 1914 is a fundamental element. I have to tell you that my interest in this matter actually preceded, and was a factor leading to, my association with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I note the subject regarding Christ and the year 1914 is the subject of other discussions on this forum so I will be tracking them with interest. 

Anyway, our exchange was interesting and illuminating, and gave me an impetus to look through every issue of ZWT 1879 to 1914, which was a long overdue excercise for me.

Bye for now.  

[HollyW]

58 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Thanks for being frank @HollyW,  and for indicating your group to include @JWInsider and @Anna along with @AnnOMaly, something I was not aware of.

I understand where you are coming from now. 

Well, you had asked who else had been telling you that statement on page 20 was wrong and that's why I named them.  Is that how you understood me?  I also referenced a cartoon that you posted.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I have already expressed my understanding of  what "present in kingly power" means to me in connection with Christ on other threads, probably with participation of others in your group, so I will not repeat here.

Well, I wish you had repeated it here because I don't ever get around to reading all the posts on here.  Maybe I should be following your posts more closely.   I'll see if I can find it with a search of some sort.  What if I had just answered No to your question, would you have followed up to see if we were talking about the same thing?

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I can see there's no way we can actually reconcile our viewpoints on this particular thread, as the relationship of Christ's Kingdom to the year 1914 is a fundamental element. I have to tell you that my interest in this matter actually preceded, and was a factor leading to, my association with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I'm sure this is something I don't have to point out, but your teaching about 1914 could change.  In fact, it could be under the delete button as we speak.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I note the subject regarding Christ and the year 1914 is the subject of other discussions on this forum so I will be tracking them with interest. 

Perhaps we'll run into each other on some of those.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Anyway, our exchange was interesting and illuminating,  .

Same here.

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

and gave me an impetus to look through every issue of ZWT 1879 to 1914, which was a long overdue excercise for me.

My prayers have been answered then.  Wish we could do it together.  Do you have them readily available?

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1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Bye for now.  

 

[HollyW]

 

24 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Bye for now.  

LOL, of all the things to repeat.   'Bye, Eoin.

[HollyW]

 Moving on with the book, "God's Kingdom Rules!", on page 6 it describes the kingdom of God as "the heavenly Messianic government made up of Christ Jesus and his 144,000 corulers". 

How do JWs see and enter the kingdom of God in accordance with Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." And yet not be born again as in John 3:3,5?

[JW Insider]

On 9/27/2016 at 4:55 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

That is my point. And for me, the fact that the understanding has since developed into a clearer discernment of the significance of 1914 events (including the discarding of the 1874 nonsense), means I am quite happy with the statement that they "began to discern" in connection with 1914. They did not know much about what they were discerning I will grant you, but looking back it all makes sense. To me anyway.

If you boil your argument down to its essence, then, you seem satisfied then that the key part of the phrase "In 1914" might just refer to the time that the beginning events of Christ's presence began, which they could discern later, but which it would at least have been possible to discern in that particular year. (No particular evidence of the "discernment" in 1914 would be required.) Perhaps, as they kept looking back on events that they recalled or considered, it would have become increasingly clearer in time that 1914 itself was that new starting point for "Christ's presence." Whether or not they discerned much, or anything, about it in that very year is not so important, because it was still going to be the events that they had seen that year which would finally be put into place in the updated doctrine.

If we were to focus on the meaning of "discernment," in this case, it need be no more than seeing it, at the time, but what they saw is the foundation they will build on as true discernment becomes clearer. Perhaps you are also crediting them (or some of them) with at least a small measure of actual discernment that 1914 might have been so different than their original expectations, that perhaps some were already thinking "in the back of their mind" that it might end up having a different significance than what they had thought previously. Perhaps someone might have even thought that it could end up becoming be a better year in which to claim that the "invisible presence" had started. 

I think that's fair enough. You are being a bit more flexible than I am. But it's that faint, vague possibility of that flexible interpretation that makes me think that this isn't really a "lie."

I am sensitive to the ease with which this phrase can still be misleading, however. It does give the impression that there must have been Bible Students, in 1914, who had already discerned that Christ's presence had begun in 1914. And if this is true, we know of no evidence that any of them left for us. (And as I said before, they actually left evidence to the contrary, which I'll expand on below or in another post.) I should add that you might also be thinking perhaps that the writer knows something that hasn't been put into evidence, or even that this particular phrase was prayerfully pored over by the Governing Body and will turn out to be right even if there was no evidence for it at the time.

You probably won't be too surprised, but in my opinion, it's more than likely that the writer has purposely worded it this way, knowing it was a "stretch," out of a strong desire to put the Bible Students beliefs in the best light possible, before admitting that the doctrine they were teaching in 1914 about Christ's presence was wrong. This is almost always the formula for presenting this particular portion of the WTS history. It's my opinion that this was intended to lead the reader to think the following:

1. that the events of 1914 had been predicted by the Bible Students
2. that the primary event they had predicted was a great time of trouble that would begin that very year
3. that they not only predicted the events of 1914, but these predictions turned out to be even more correct than they expected, when it was an actual World War
4. that only the Bible Students had the privilege and ability to "discern" these events in advance
5. that the Bible students, while still in the year 1914, were able to "discern" that these events provided the evidence that they had been right about expecting that Christ's presence would start in that year
6. that this special privilege and ability to "discern" --before 1914-- is intended to "impress" the reader into accepting that the Bible Students were special recipients of Jehovah's holy spirit and guidance
7. that this special privilege and ability to "discern" --during and after 1914-- is intended to "impress" the reader into accepting that the Governing Body of the Watch Tower Society were therefore about to be chosen as the special representatives of "the faithful and discreet slave" who were entrusted with providing spiritual food at the proper time.

It's also my opinion that the writer knew very well that what he is implying that they had discerned is not true, but that he has worded it very carefully to get some of these same ideas across without pushing the ideas so far that they would be considered "lies" by those who know the evidence behind it. Once those ideas about "discernment" are out there, only then is it OK to admit that they didn't have a complete understanding, or even a very good understanding about Christ's presence at the time.

That probably sounds like I am saying that the writer was dishonest. Not exactly. The writer likely believes very strongly in the last point (#7) above, and believes that the ideas behind all the other points are either true or mostly true. He must maximize how impressive it is at this point, so that he can add the caveat later, and it won't change the overall impression. 

Why would I say such a thing, then? Because I've seen this process up close and personal. Also, it is exactly the pattern that explains the use of similar phrases for many years. There is a very real need to "impress." We can see it in the historical video, Faith in Action, Part 1: Out of Darkness, where (at 44m53s) Brother Anthony Morris III, says "...it's still significant that they could pinpoint that year. That's phenomenal!"

The full idea behind the points in the paragraph of "kr" are also embedded in the following quotes

*** w04 2/1 p. 19 par. 6 “The Scene of This World Is Changing” ***
As that “time” approached, Jehovah took steps to reveal the answer to a group of humble Bible students. With the help of God’s spirit, they discerned that “the appointed times of the nations” began with the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. and that those “times” were 2,520 years in length. From this, they deduced that 1914 marked the end of “the appointed times of the nations.” They also came to realize that 1914 was the beginning of the end for this system of things.

*** w13 2/15 p. 18 par. 4 Stay in Jehovah’s Valley of Protection ***
Decades before 1914, Jehovah’s worshippers declared to the nations that the end of “the appointed times of the nations” would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.

*** w86 11/1 p. 6 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is ***
For over three decades before 1914, Jehovah’s Witnesses called attention to the significance of this date.

*** w81 2/15 p. 10 Insight on the News ***
Hence, another respected authority adds his voice to those of numerous statesmen and historians who, in looking back, recognized the significance of the year 1914. Yet, decades before that year arrived, dedicated students of Bible prophecy were able to identify 1914 as a climactic turning point

*** w69 4/15 p. 243 par. 12 Making Men and Nations a Laughingstock ***
Decades before 1914 C.E., careful Bible students had calculated this date by means of the Bible timetable and Bible prophecy. From world events and conditions since that momentous year, it is unmistakable that something ended, an era ended, for the Gentile nations in 1914.

*** w69 12/1 p. 719 par. 27 Final Woes to Enemies of Peace with God ***
They did not like to be notified that the “times of the Gentiles” had run out in the year 1914 and that these witnesses had been vindicated by world events in pointing forward for decades to that year as the time for God’s kingdom by Christ to come into full control in the heavens, with authority to oust the Gentile nations from the earth.

*** w67 12/15 p. 752 par. 31 “In All the Nations the Good News Has to Be Preached First” ***
Why, for decades before 1914, Bible students associated with the magazine The Watch Tower and with the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society looked for God’s Messianic kingdom to come into full power in 1914.

*** w53 8/15 pp. 492-493 par. 3 Living Now as a New World Society ***
For decades before World War I God had been preparing a people to become this altogether different society of our day. To them he uncovered the teachings of his Word . . . He roused them to the realization that the time for the oft-prayed-for Kingdom to be fully established was getting close. Long in advance he even disclosed to them by his Word that the time for the Kingdom to assume power in heaven and in earth was A.D. 1914, for then the time he had allotted for the uninterrupted domination of the earth by the Gentile nations since Jerusalem’s first destruction in 607 B.C. would run out.

*** w53 9/15 p. 561 par. 18 Flight to Safety with the New World Society ***
For decades before A.D. 1914 Jehovah’s witnesses had been preaching the full establishment of God’s kingdom by Christ at the end of the “appointed times of the nations” in that year. To confirm their preaching as correct, World War I for global domination by the nations of this earth broke out suddenly in 1914,

*** g75 4/22 p. 29 Watching the World ***
For decades before World War I, Bible students had warned that 1914 would be a critical point in history. “The trauma of World War I . . . is widely regarded as a benchmark in the evolution of modern America,” confirms a recent issue of U.S. News & World Report. And such changes were felt world wide. In more recent decades Jehovah’s witnesses have again noted what Bible chronology indicates, this time warning that the mid-1970’s would be critical for mankind. What does the record so far indicate? According to this article, “Historians compare . . . today’s upsets” with the “time of social and moral change” during World War I.

*** g73 1/22 p. 8 Who Can Accurately Predict Man’s Future? ***
Based on what he said, along with the words of Daniel and John, Jehovah’s witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of “the conclusion of the system of things.”

*** yb75 p. 37 Part 1—United States of America ***
Very noteworthy was the striking accuracy with which that book pointed to the end of the Gentile Times, “the appointed times of the nations.” (Luke 21:24) It showed (on pages 83 and 189) that this 2,520-year period, during which Gentile or non-Jewish nations would rule the earth without interference by any kingdom of God, began with the Babylonian overthrow of the kingdom of Judah in the late seventh century B.C.E. and would end in 1914 C.E. Even earlier, however, C. T. Russell wrote an article entitled “Gentile Times: When Do They End?” It was published in the Bible Examiner of October 1876, and therein Russell said: “The seven times will end in A.D. 1914.” He had correctly linked the Gentile Times with the “seven times” mentioned in the book of Daniel. (Dan. 4:16, 23, 25, 32) True to such calculations, 1914 did mark the end of those times and the birth of God’s kingdom in heaven with Christ Jesus as king. Just think of it! Jehovah granted his people that knowledge nearly four decades before those times expired.

*** ce chap. 18 pp. 227-229 The Bible—Is It Really Inspired by God? ***
Decades before that date, there was an organization of people who were making known the significance of 1914. The New York World of August 30, 1914, explains: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ [Jehovah’s Witnesses] . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. ‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the . . . evangelists.”29
A People Who Fulfill Prophecy

*** kr chap. 2 p. 16 par. 12 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
12 The work those faithful men did in championing doctrinal truth in the decades before 1914 was simply amazing!

*** pm chap. 19 p. 332 par. 8 The Kingdom Withstands International Assault ***
For decades prior to 1914 C.E., even since the year 1876 C.E., the nations and peoples of the world had been notified that the Gentile Times would close in that year. Dedicated, baptized Christians, like Charles Taze Russell who became president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, were used to serve this notice, especially upon the nations of Christendom.

*** su chap. 3 p. 25 par. 11 How Long Will the Present System Last? ***
Decades in advance it was known that this would come in 1914 at the end of the major fulfillment of the “seven times” of Daniel 4:10-17. But full realization of its significance came gradually during the years that followed. Progressively Bible students saw unfolding before their eyes details of the composite sign that Jesus said would indicate his heavenly presence in Kingdom power.

*** tp chap. 7 p. 73 par. 11 When Will the Foretold World Destruction Come? ***
After going on record that the Bible pointed to 1914, Jehovah’s Witnesses had to wait for several decades before they saw the outcome.

*** wj chap. 9 p. 23 par. 15 Identifying God-Inspired Truth ***
Decades before World War I began in 1914, Jehovah’s worshipers were making known the significance of that year. The New York World of August 30, 1914, explains: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ [as Jehovah’s Witnesses were then known] . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”8

 

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As Jesus' excercise of kingship took place in 1914 and was not a reality before, then acknowledging the event in 1914 is for me the beginning of discerning that fact. Anything prior to that date was purely speculation.That is the way I view it and I have not yet heard anything convincing otherwise.

As I started to point out in my last post, several versions of this same comment have been made dozens of times before, sometimes with careful wording that indicates the writer knew there were limits to what he could claim, and sometimes with not-so-careful wording. Some of these come across as technically true, but misleading. There are even a couple of cases where the wording created not just a false impression but a true falsehood.

The most interesting versions of this pattern go back to the time when Rutherford was still in the midst of re-working doctrines that had been considered true in Russell's time. Here's one that gets right to the point about what was or was not "discerned" in 1914:

*** Watchtower, October 1, 1930, p.291 ***

Understanding that the ''day of Christ'' began when Jesus came to the temple of God, in 1918, it appears that the rebellion must precede that day. The beginning of the falling away or rebellion against God's organization would also mark the beginning of the disclosure of the ''man of sin'', even though none of God's children then on earth understood the matter. The Revelation which God gave to Jesus Christ to show to his "servant" began to be disclosed particularly from 1914 forward, but none of God's children on earth had an understanding thereof for fifteen years or more thereafter. They did see the evidence of things coming to pass which mark a fulfilment of Revelation, but they did not discern the meaning thereof. Likewise the faithful have for some years seen the manifestation of lawlessness and now begin to discern the meaning of the term the "man of sin".

*** end of quote ***

 

There are also many published statements from this time period that give a clearer picture about what really was being discerned with reference to the date of Christ's presence between 1914 and 1931. It's difficult to get a clear view with just a couple of snippets, so if I get a chance, I'll look up some of the quotes again and post something either here or in the "Millions" thread.

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22 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

They did see the evidence of things coming to pass which mark a fulfilment of Revelation, but they did not discern the meaning thereof

Thats the best quote I have seen on this subject and I would be surprised to see something in Society publications that captures the situation more succinctly.

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think that's fair enough. You are being a bit more flexible than I am. But it's that faint, vague possibility of that flexible interpretation that makes me think that this isn't really a "lie."

I am happy with that statement as well. I suppose it is the "conspiracy theory " slant that so many try to sustain when discussing this type of subject that makes me want to lean as far as possible the other way.

51 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Because I've seen this process up close and personal.

Well, I will have to take your word for that, but I have no reason to doubt your first hand experience of the "sleight of hand" employed by writers, especially when trying to maintain interest in a subject that might appear repetitive in nature. I have noted the "massaging" techniques applied to life experiences in this regard, both in written and oral form, where they are used to support a particular theme. Selective quoting is another technique (appearing quite frequently on this forum). These methods have their place, but one needs to be aware of their limitations when submitted as "proof".

I know people are often impressionable and easily lead, so this places a great responsibility on those writing, particularly in this field of all places, to ensure integrity is never sacrificed for the making of an impression.

However, I was introduced to a principle almost at the outset of my association with Jehovah's Witnesses and this has stood me in good stead in evaluating all information I have come across since. It is a piece of advice available to everyone studying the Bible and it is currrently rendered:

Proverbs 14:15: "The naive person believes every word, But the shrewd one ponders each step."