When a teaching changes after baptism.....

[HollyW]

15 hours ago, LloydSt said:

1. Holly said: "Others have also posted using the comparison of science to what we believe the Bible teaches.  I don't agree with this comparison because of what the Bible tells us. 

For instance, Paul did not expect his teaching to change: Galatians 1: 8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! ⁹ As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Holly c'mon.  Seriously?  We're talking about the attempt at understanding the Bible to be able to preach what it says correctly.  You comment would mean that anything written by anyone in an attempt to understand God's word would by definition be "another gospel".  And it would require that someone be absolutely right about what they wrote on their first attempt and that they couldn't change.  That is ridiculous and unreasonable.  We've already covered this  

2. Holly said: "He also cautioned against being "tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine," Ephesians 4:14."

May I suggest that the very winds Paul was talking about are the non-witness ideas being floated here!

 

1. If it's just a mere attempt at understanding the Bible, should it really be presented as being the truth that all members of the WTS must accept or be cast out?  These attempts, as you call them, by the WTS were said to be the true teachings of the Bible and had to be accepted in order for a person to qualify as approved association for the other members of the WTS.

2. Could you be more specific?  Earlier I think you said the winds of Ephesians 4:14 were referring to the doctrines Christians have believed for nearly two centuries.  Did you have something else in mind now?

 

[HollyW]

8 minutes ago, HollyW said:

1. If it's just a mere attempt at understanding the Bible, should it really be presented as being the truth that all members of the WTS must accept or be cast out?  These attempts, as you call them, by the WTS were said to be the true teachings of the Bible and had to be accepted in order for a person to qualify as approved association for the other members of the WTS.

2. Could you be more specific?  Earlier I think you said the winds of Ephesians 4:14 were referring to the doctrines Christians have believed for nearly two centuries.  Did you have something else in mind now?

 

The edit option expired so I'll attempt it this way:  Actually it was the darkness  of 1 John 1:5 that you said "referred to the major misunderstandings that Christendom still promotes today,"

[HollyW]

 

16 hours ago, LloydSt said:

1. Holly said: " If the men on the governing body did claim to be infallible, what would that change for you?"

Why do I feel like I'm being set up for some quote from many years ago that someone might interpret as the governing body or a Watchtower president saying they are infallible?

So let's skip ahead.  Here's the answer to that upcoming quote (if I have guessed right).  While it may appear that they had been saying that they were infallible, actually they likely did believe that what they had come to believe was correct, perhaps even as if it came from Jehovah's mouth.  But in that, they could have been somewhat mistaken.  The happy conclusion is that, as demonstrated by the quote from the Revelation book, that, as a group, they humbled themselves and purposefully admitted that they were NOT infallible.

 

The point I was making is that nothing would change for you even if the men on the governing body did claim to be infallible.  You accept and obey what they say just as though they do claim to be infallible.

 

 

[io.porog]

2 hours ago, HollyW said:

I was just referring to the cute drawing of the sheep in your profile.

How do those scriptures support the idea of being required to accept certain teachings you believed were the true teachings of the Bible, only to have them changed later?

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

These verses show that not only would changes happen but that Paul may have even expected them in his lifetime. We know now that he did not live to see the cessation of miraculous gifts. However, on a number of occasions he even dealt with people in the congregation denying or refusing to accept the changes from Judaism to Christianity - accepting physical uncircumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, the resurrection were some such changes - the meat thing was more about being guided by your conscience rather than a rule. But even greater changes were coming, and Paul may have thought they were coming in his lifetime...

 

[HollyW]

30 minutes ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.

These verses show that not only would changes happen but that Paul may have even expected them in his lifetime. We know now that he did not live to see the cessation of miraculous gifts. However, on a number of occasions he even dealt with people in the congregation denying or refusing to accept the changes from Judaism to Christianity - accepting physical uncircumcision, eating meat sacrificed to idols, the resurrection were some such changes - the meat thing was more about being guided by your conscience rather than a rule. But even greater changes were coming, and Paul may have thought they were coming in his lifetime...

 

You can't really be saying Paul was teaching wrong expectations and misunderstandings that he had adjust later.

[Witness]

On 7/7/2016 at 10:02 AM, LloydSt said:

You cannot and at the same time fulfill Jesus command to, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."

Hi Lloyd,

I do appreciate your concern, very much.  You have sincere fervor to be a spiritual person, but Jesus gave us warning after warning of deception in our day before his return that we cannot ignore.  I know the following is long, but please bear with me. 

At one time the organization’s baptism questions reflected this scripture. Thanks to jwfacts, the sly change in questions over the years is all on one page that you can reference, but I will present part here:

  WT 1944, 2/1 p. 44:   “Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God and have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from Him and through his Ransomer Christ Jesus?  On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption, have you consecrated yourself unreservedly to do the will of God henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God’s Word as His holy spirit makes it plain?”

Notice how, in 1955, being baptized was NOT in the name of an organization as the above question also relates:

"A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit." Watchtower 1955 Jul 1 p.411

Baptism questions from 1956:

“Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ? “

“On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?"

So far, these question are still in line with Matt 28:19

Wt 1966 10/1 pp 603-4 "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." 

 Where did our necessary relationship with Jesus go in this quote?  But still, no dedication to an organization is considered acceptable. As the years have gone by, false doctrine regarding one’s dedication subtly appeared as you will see. 

1973 baptism questions:  “Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ? 

"On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?”

Please Lloyd, take note of your baptism questions today:

Wt 1985/6/1 p. 30:  “On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?” 

“Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?”

Looking over the changes of the source of salvation and dedication, what do you conclude is the basis of my own salvation, is it an organization or is it Christ?  Can you see from the  baptism questions that as you now “preach” to lead one to baptism, the words of Matt 28:19,20 are a far cry from the recent baptism questions and lead one to “membership” into the organization?  These questions are now short and to the point, lacking spiritual substance, with emphasis on the organization.  I not only have dedicated myself to God and Jesus, but I identify myself to them in my continual efforts to imitate them.  

Compare this quote from above…

Wt 1966 10/1 pp 603-4 "We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." 

To this quote from 1990:

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established." KM 11/’90 p 1 

Matt 28:20 – “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Has the organization observed all the things Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19?  No, since discreetly the organizational requirement has snaked its way in covertly as “salvation”!  Can I say that Jesus is with the organization if his clear, precise commandments are not followed to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? No!

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. ³ By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.”  2 Pet 2:1-3

Our greatest test in the time of the end is discerning “fine fruit” from the lips of anointed ones.

 ^“And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you.  For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.”  Mark 13:5,6

We know the meaning of the name “Jesus” is “YHWH is Salvation”.  What does the organization say?

“Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation”  WT ‘81/11/15 p 212  “For many will come in My name, saying ‘I am He’” – “Jehovah”/organization is Salvation.  Jesus is salvation leading to God!

“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come. Mark 13:22,23

Have you stopped watching, being on guard, now that you reside in the organization – a “spiritual paradise”?  1 Pet 5:8; Matt 10:34

“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”  Matt 24:24

“Christ” means anointed; the GB are anointed and support false prophesies. 

“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”  Gal 1:8

Can you see that “another gospel” is supported by the “faithful and discreet slave” to have all preach that the organization is one’s salvation, and dedication to it is necessary to receive salvation?  2 Cor 11:4

"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?  The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped, Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom to they have?"  Jer 8:8,9

 ^“He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.”  John 7:18

“It is a great privilege to get baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”  w16 March pp. 3-7

Lloyd, I have broken free from the oppression by men who believe they can rule over another.  While the GB declares themselves as “faithful”, they willingly “trample” their own in Christ, along with all believers so subtly, using the word “love” to support their own “godliness”, but instead “denying its power”.  2 Tim 3:1-9; Mark 13:14 

Somewhere here, you mentioned Jehovah’s Witnesses are the “scum of the earth”, when in reality it is those who declare salvation in the Father and Christ alone who are indeed viewed as the scum of the earth in the eyes of JWs, as a result of disfellowshiping; this is a sign of the end times.

“They will put you out of the synagogues (Greek-“congregations) . Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you (“figuratively to destroy”) will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2 (Rev 20:4)

Have JWs been put out of any congregation in the world?  One’s own brother consistently transgresses against another.  Matt 10:35-39; Mark 13:12,13; Heb 13:13; John 15:20; Please read Luke 12:49-53

On 7/7/2016 at 10:02 AM, LloydSt said:

You cannot at at the same time with all the brothers, "speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

The GB is successful in doing this by shutting up their fellow anointed ones, in the same manner as Diotrephes:

“I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.  So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.”  3 John 1:9-11

This is a time of the sifting of hearts, Lloyd, not to be swayed by a false "peace and security".  God allows it, in order for those seriously seeking God whole souled will find him, through turning to Christ for pure truth.  Luke 22:31; 2 Thess 2:1-12; John 14:6; Rev 3:18; 3:20; Luke 17:22-37

 http://pearl-sign.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Somewhere here, you mentioned Jehovah’s Witnesses are the “scum of the earth”, when in reality it is those who declare salvation in the Father and Christ alone who are indeed viewed as the scum of the earth in the eyes of JWs, as a result of disfellowshiping; this is a sign of the end times.

Lloyd, in retrospect, I believe it was someone else, somewhere else that used this term.  Sorry for the misquote; perhaps, though it becomes clear just who are the "scum of the earth". 

[io.porog]

15 hours ago, HollyW said:

You can't really be saying Paul was teaching wrong expectations and misunderstandings that he had adjust later.

Holly, I wonder what you hope to achieve. When you answered so quickly without giving yourself time to think about your reply, I knew for certain, that you are not interested in actually changing you position. But like I said and I hope you are willing to at least agree to disagree. I don't hope to change you. But I would like to hear your opinion of Pauls statements. What was Paul saying, if not that changes should be expected?

 

[HollyW]

8 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Holly, I wonder what you hope to achieve. When you answered so quickly without giving yourself time to think about your reply, I knew for certain, that you are not interested in actually changing you position. But like I said and I hope you are willing to at least agree to disagree. I don't hope to change you. But I would like to hear your opinion of Pauls statements. What was Paul saying, if not that changes should be expected?

Those scriptures there in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 don't apply to the question asked in the OP, unless you're saying what Paul  was teaching were expectations and understandings that would have to be adjusted to other expectations and other understandings later in the future.  IOW that Jehovah had purposely let him teach errors in order for him to realize his need to look always to Him and His Word.

But if you believe those scriptures do apply to the changes and adjustments the WTS has made in what is supposed to be considered as true Bible teachings, let's take another look at them with that in mind.

1 Corinthians 13:8   Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 

Is Paul saying that he expected prophesies themselves to be wrong and need adjusting, or that there would come a time when the Holy Spirit would not move anyone to prophesy because all prophecy had been fulfilled and prophesying would no longer be needed?

Was he saying that what the disciples spoke in tongues was wrong and would be adjusted sometime later, or was he saying there would be a time when the gift of tongues would not be needed....not that the messages and interpretations given for them had been mistaken.

If the knowledge Paul mentions in verse 8 is the ordinary knowledge common to all mankind thru experiences and studies, that of course would change, but he isn't referring to that kind of knowledge, is he.  He's referring to spiritual knowledge we receive thru the Holy Spirit.  Is he saying that the knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit would be in need of re-examination and adjustment, or is he saying there would be a time when this gift of knowledge would not be needed?

You would have Paul saying that the partial knowledge and the partial prophesying he had was itself wrong, but what he's saying is that it is partial and not complete yet.  He's not saying he misunderstood anything and had to make adjustments in his understanding.

 

[io.porog]

I disagree with your tendency to seek the worst case scenario and go to one extreme or another. The text is quite clear that what you teach a baby is not the same thing as what you know as an adult. I think you know that deep down. A baby is not able to walk immediately is it? It is not able to speak immediately is it? It cannot think or reason like an adult can it? I wonder if you are a mother, if so does your child know all of your intentions and plans for them? I think understanding this would help an honest hearted person. But solid food only belongs to mature people doesn't it? I am not an elder, nor am I anything special in the congregation, but I took the rafter out of my own eye a long time ago, so I think I have freeness to speak on this matter.

[HollyW]

5 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I disagree with your tendency to seek the worst case scenario and go to one extreme or another. The text is quite clear that what you teach a baby is not the same thing as what you know as an adult. I think you know that deep down. A baby is not able to walk immediately is it? It is not able to speak immediately is it? It cannot think or reason like an adult can it? I wonder if you are a mother, if so does your child know all of your intentions and plans for them? I think understanding this would help an honest hearted person. But solid food only belongs to mature people doesn't it? I am not an elder, nor am I anything special in the congregation, but I took the rafter out of my own eye a long time ago, so I think I have freeness to speak on this matter.

Well, Mr V, you pressed me for my opinions about Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and I gave them.  Please tell me how anything in those scriptures apply to the changes the WTS has made in what they said were true Bible teachings, especially those since you were baptized.

Why do you consider what I've posted as being a worst case scenario?  

Even the WTS says that these scriptures are not applicable to the growth and knowledge humans go thru from babyhood to adulthood.  And Paul is not talking about that either.  He is speaking about spiritual matters, gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Nor is he talking about teaching wrong understandings and having to correct them.

Your analogy to a baby would only apply if you believed the leaders of the WTS resembled babies when they began back in the 1870's and still haven't reached adulthood, therefore you continue to follow what they say are true Bible teachings with the expectation that sometime in the future they will finally reach maturity and be able to teach as mature adults and not need to correct any misunderstandings.

But that isn't what you believe, is it.  You believe they are teaching what our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus want them to teach and that's why you are willing to accept what they tell you the Bible teaches, even if that changes what they told you the Bible was teaching when you were baptized.  Isn't that how you would answer the question in the OP?

 

[io.porog]

Holly, I feel like I'm regurgitating over and over again. I thought that by quoting the text about "babes" would be enough to explain itself. I;m going to simplify dramatically and just use very plain language. I hope you don't mind:

To explain how the scriptures apply to changes we've made since I was baptized

• My baptism has no bearing on the changes made by the organization. The changes would have occurred whether I became a witness or not
• 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13 demonstrates that gifts like knowlegde, prophesying and tongues would one day cease. These gifts were temporary things in order to grow the early congregation. 

Why do I consider what you've posted as being a worse case scenario?

• I consider you statements as only focusing on the faults of the Governing Body. You have not shown a balanced unbiased approach

Paul speaking about the growth of humans from babies to adults

• I agree Paul was not speaking about literal Babies, he was using similitude to demonstrate spiritual growth, which involves adjustments
• This time and others he was involved in adjustments in thinking: For example, uncircumcision became allowed, previously not allowed 
•  

When does the baby analogy apply

• That is correct, according to current thinking, in the 1870's God's people were still a work in progress and will be until the end of the thousand year reign (wt 92 7/15 Pg 30) 

I am willing to accept what they tell me

• My relationship is with Jehovah first, I care for this firstly by Bible reading and study. It is inferred that the organization is an extension of Jehovah's sovereignty his visible representative such as were the kings of Israel. Hence, if ever the king was to take the nation into apostasy, I must still respect the anointed one of Jehovah, just as David did Saul. It does not mean that I have to take part in anything that would affect my relationship with Jehovah.