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So, I am reading in Matthew about how many generations there we're from the deportation from Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations. The way I do math 607 divided by 14 equals 43.3 years. This is how Scripture measures a generation.The way I see it since 1914 we have had 2 complete generations and are now working on a 3rd. According to Jesus shouldn't the end have come by now?

 

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That's an interesting question   It can be answered many. Ways.  Only God can determine that. We will have to wait for the light to get brighter in time it will be come clear maybe humans look at things to much from different angles ?

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Also:

*** ka chap. 16 p. 296 par. 7 Completion of the Foretold “Sign” Nears ***


"Counted from the year of Jesus’ prophecy on the subject, the Jewish system of things had thirty-seven years yet to go, less than a generation with a life-span of forty years.
 

*** it-1 p. 540 Wilderness Wanderings of Israel ***


"This brought Jehovah’s swift judgment: Forty years would pass before the nation would enter the Promised Land. By then, the faithless members of that generation would have died off."

So the questions are, 

  • Could there be a flaw in the Org's eschatology?
  • If so, what is it?
  • Could there be more than one flaw?

This would be a fruitful research project for you, Sarah:)

 

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It is my humble opinion that the generation scenario that started from Millerites, is completely wrong because takes as given that the prophecy of Jesus about the distraction of Jerusalem will have a second fulfillment. No! we do not know if there will be a generation from 1914 (or whatever date) until the end. This is not scriptural, no one knows except the Father. If someone gives dates is a false prophet. if someone says the light will be brighter ... in order to prophecy is a dangerous person. We Christians of the last days ... we are no Prophets! We must have love ... this is our characteristic.

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Ann,

That's a very powerful combination of points. I remember when Brother Schroeder at Bethel was getting himself involved in the "generation" debate. He needed to look at all uses of "generation" in contexts that implied a time-frame. He was willing to go to Josephus, Philo, the Pseudepigrapha. He was not really satisfied with any of the solutions that went beyond 40 years. He was willing to go with either the solution that it meant the "wicked" generation or the "anointed" generation but, either way,he still wanted it to be within 40 years. 

So it shouldn't have been surprising that he came up with the idea that, because of Sputnik, October 4, 1957 was the new, updated start of the generation that saw the full sign, because it had to include the "signs in the 'heavens'" including the idea that men would become 'faint out of fear.' It's also interesting that even though we have never claimed that Jerusalem fell in October, or that Zedekiah was removed from his throne in October, we still love the idea of October as the start of the Gentile Times. Not just October, but October 4th. 

*** w79 9/15 p. 24 par. 11 The “Cup” That All Nations Must Drink at God’s Hand *** [1979]
But the reason simply is that about October 4/5, 1914, or 2,520 years from the desolating of Judah and Jerusalem after the Babylonian conquest, the Gentile Times of uninterrupted world domination ended.

Note the wording of the very first line on

    Hello guest!

"History changed on October 4, 1957, when the Soviet Union successfully launched Sputnik I.".

1957 + 40 = 1997, and he was also sure that the end would come before the end of the 20th century. The proposal was in 1980, and therefore he was sure that we had less than 17 years left in this old system.

*** w80 7/1 p. 3 Keep Watching! *** [1980]
Truly, the possibility that the “unthinkable” could happen provides good reason for thinking about the world situation. And many people are thinking. A special report in the February 11, 1980, issue of U.S. News & World Report analyzed the military might of the leading nations on earth, with these opening words: “To a fearfully watching world, the Soviet Union today looks like a military juggernaut, driving relentlessly toward global domination.” This is indeed a fearfully watching world, for the kind of holocaust that would accompany a nuclear war simply beggars the imagination. And there is no question that global domination has in fact become a major issue of our times.
Is there any solution to this doomsday situation? Many persons watch in despair. They see the nations ‘beefing it up’ in terms of rockets, submarine-launched ballistic missiles, long-range bombers, nuclear warheads and the like. As they watch, they become painfully aware that fearful dangers now threaten from the heavens and the sea, even as the Master, Jesus, foretold for the final days of the wicked system of things on this earth. Jesus said:


“There will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs. Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation, while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”—Luke 21:11, 25, 26.

In this context, it's easier to understand why Brother Schroeder was able to propose the following, with the approval of two other members of the Governing Body and propose it to the entire Governing Body.on March 5 of the same year, 1980:

DfIbI9d.gif

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Also:

*** ka chap. 16 p. 296 par. 7 Completion of the Foretold “Sign” Nears ***


"Counted from the year of Jesus’ prophecy on the subject, the Jewish system of things had thirty-seven years yet to go, less than a generation with a life-span of forty years.
 

*** it-1 p. 540 Wilderness Wanderings of Israel ***


"This brought Jehovah’s swift judgment: Forty years would pass before the nation would enter the Promised Land. By then, the faithless members of that generation would have died off."

So the questions are, 

  • Could there be a flaw in the Org's eschatology?
  • If so, what is it?
  • Could there be more than one flaw?

This would be a fruitful research project for you, Sarah:)

 

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your use of Scripture to interpret Scripture. It seems a generation is not as long as some think.

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18 minutes ago, gfnslave said:

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your use of Scripture to interpret Scripture. It seems a generation is not as long as some think.

What do you make of the current idea about 2 groups of anointed overlapping with one another which comprises one generation?

Oh and when I said,

This would be a fruitful research project for you, Sarah:)

I meant to put your name as you were the OP. Should worn my reading glasses. 9_9

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On 3/13/2016 at 13:32, gfnslave said:

So, I am reading in Matthew about how many generations there we're from the deportation from Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations. The way I do math 607 divided by 14 equals 43.3 years. This is how Scripture measures a generation.The way I see it since 1914 we have had 2 complete generations and are now working on a 3rd. According to Jesus shouldn't the end have come by now?

 

What would be the length of a generation as mentioned in Gen 15:16?

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On 3/14/2016 at 8:36 AM, gfnslave said:

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your use of Scripture to interpret Scripture. It seems a generation is not as long as some think.

 

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In light of all the points made on the length of a generation my conclusion is there are different opinions on what a generation is. Therefore I guess we will just have to wait and see. 

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Yes, al this discussion is great. Much information, yet done conclusive to make a valid point but one, we still have to wait! No one knows but the Father. That is the only true fact we have. Only the one alive will see any of this occur.,another true fact. The ones alive, 'that generation' saw the promised land, right? Not the ones who had died. So it is true right now. Whoever is alive will see all that will happen as the Bible proposes it to happen. Jesus told us to be awake to see it, stay alert; so whenever it does happen we will not be caught off guard. Not trying to know the day or the hour, that information is for cowards, who want to skate and slide in at the last hour. No, salvation is not for you. I said that, I approve of what I just said, for it is the truth. That is why not even Jesus knows, but only Jehovah knows. He has the final say when all this takes place. No leaks will help any of us. We will either be ready or asleep at the wheel. It will come even if it seems as if it is delayed, but it will not be late.

So we should not be impatient like Sarah and begin trying other things to speed it up or even circumventing it. It will come in its due time as Jehovah sees fit, my friends. So a generation, will be alive when all things take place however long or short that is. That math, our math is irrelevant. Only Jehovah's is. His counts. Agape.

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On 3/15/2016 at 10:37 AM, John Houston said:

Yes, al this discussion is great. Much information, yet done conclusive to make a valid point but one, we still have to wait! No one knows but the Father. That is the only true fact we have. Only the one alive will see any of this occur.,another true fact. The ones alive, 'that generation' saw the promised land, right? Not the ones who had died. So it is true right now. Whoever is alive will see all that will happen as the Bible proposes it to happen. Jesus told us to be awake to see it, stay alert; so whenever it does happen we will not be caught off guard. Not trying to know the day or the hour, that information is for cowards, who want to skate and slide in at the last hour. No, salvation is not for you. I said that, I approve of what I just said, for it is the truth. That is why not even Jesus knows, but only Jehovah knows. He has the final say when all this takes place. No leaks will help any of us. We will either be ready or asleep at the wheel. It will come even if it seems as if it is delayed, but it will not be late.

So we should not be impatient like Sarah and begin trying other things to speed it up or even circumventing it. It will come in its due time as Jehovah sees fit, my friends. So a generation, will be alive when all things take place however long or short that is. That math, our math is irrelevant. Only Jehovah's is. His counts. Agape.

Do you really think that at this late date Jesus still doesn't know the day or the hour? Of course I know I really shouldn't speculate but somehow I can't help but think he has earned the right to know.

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No, you wouldn't have to speculate. Thinking like Jehovah the way scripture speaks of him and how Jesus is such an image and mirrors him, would the Father have yet told him? Why? Jesus is the King, scripture states he would lead the force which would bring to the end all wickedness on earth. When would the Son need to know? When Jehovah has said , 'it is time' , no earlier. Jesus yet does not know the day nor the hour. Yes he has been given much more glory than he had before coming here to live as a human. And fulfilling his purpose as he was purposed to do, he received much, but some knowledge is still outside his grasp. Such is the relationship of a Father and Son. 

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Guest Allen Smith

And there is where the image and puppetry lies. With Recreants NOT researcher feeble attempt to confuse the outlook on generations.

Some people speculate that Jesus earned the right to know the end times. The point would be, why Jesus would go against his father’s wishes (Matthew 24:36) of only the father knowing the end time, since Jah is GOD (Isaiah 46:9) and there is NO other BEFORE him. That statement also included Christ. Jesus became the Messiah, the Redeemer, NOT a GOD, even though ignorance precedes the WORD. (1 Corinthians 1:29-31)

JW’s are NOT born again Christians, but are born again to the truth and knowledge that is required to manifest true salvation. (John 3:1-21)-( 1 John 3:1-24)

The biggest opposers illustrated on the internet are non-witnesses pretending to be witnesses, and ex-bethelites (Titus 1:15) pretending to know the conscience and minds of the Governing Body. It just makes their effort of reasoning seem worthless. (John 8:31-59)

Just like the faithless members of a generation equated to the 40 year wilderness ancient Israel endured due to rebellion. It seems to me the flaw lies within themselves, since that typical generation would be the one being experienced right now, the generation of the big “A”. That’s something that has been known since 2001. So the Org doesn’t have it WRONG, once again, ignorance does. (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

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On 3/14/2016 at 5:36 AM, gfnslave said:

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your use of Scripture to interpret Scripture. It seems a generation is not as long as some think.

What part of Ann's comment was scripture?  

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On 3/14/2016 at 1:25 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

What would be the length of a generation as mentioned in Gen 15:16?

The Chronology article in Insight should be helpful here in mapping the 4 generations to the 400 years mentioned n verse 14:

*** it-1 pp. 460-461 Chronology ***
The period from Abraham’s move to Canaan until Jacob’s going down into Egypt was 215 years. This figure is derived from the following facts: Twenty-five years passed from Abraham’s departure from Haran to the birth of Isaac (Ge 12:4; 21:5); from then to the birth of Jacob was 60 years (Ge 25:26); and Jacob was 130 at the time of his entry into Egypt (Ge 47:9); thus giving a total of 215 years (from 1943 to 1728 B.C.E.). This means that an equal period of 215 years was thereafter spent by the Israelites in Egypt (from 1728 to 1513 B.C.E.). . . . “You may know for sure that your seed will become an alien resident in a land not theirs, and they will have to serve them, and these will certainly afflict them for four hundred years.” (Ge 15:13; see also Ac 7:6, 7.) This was stated prior to the birth of the promised heir or “seed,” Isaac. In 1932 B.C.E. Ishmael was born to Abram by the Egyptian servant girl Hagar, and in 1918 B.C.E. Isaac was born. (Ge 16:16; 21:5) Counting back 400 years from the Exodus, which marked the end of the ‘afflicting’ (Ge 15:14), would bring us to 1913 B.C.E., and at that time Isaac was about five years old. . . .  The very fact that this incident was recorded in detail in the divine record also points to its marking the commencement of the prophesied 400-year period of affliction that would not end until the Exodus.—Ga 4:29.

So these 4 generations could be understood to take the full 400 years. Of course there is also a good possibility that the 4 generations refers only to the portion of those 400 years that begins after Abraham is promised a peaceful death in old age (1843 BCE), or just as likely, the portion of time that four generations of offspring will be foreigners n Egypt..

(Genesis 15:13-16) 13 Then He said to Aʹbram: “Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years. . . . 15 As for you, you will go to your forefathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 But they will return here in the fourth generation, . . .

*** it-1 p. 31 Abraham ***
Finally, at the good old age of 175, Abraham died, in 1843 B.C.E.

 

If it's the 215-year portion spent in a land not theirs (Egypt) then it's 215 divided by 4 which is nearly 54 years. If it's the full 400 years divided by 4 generations Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the "12" brothers, then that averages 100 years each. If it's 400 years that starts after Abraham's death.in 1843 BCE, then 1843 to 1513 BCE leaves an average generation of 82.5 years.

The most likely one that fits the other generation examples would have to be the four generations that spent time in Egypt, not only after Abraham died, but even after Joseph died.  In this case, that's about 54 years.

(Exodus 1:5-8) . . .. 5 And all those who were born to Jacob were 70 people, but Joseph was already in Egypt. 6 Joseph eventually died, and also all his brothers and all that generation. 7 And the Israelites became fruitful and began to increase greatly, and they kept on multiplying and growing mightier at an extraordinary rate, so that the land became filled with them. 8 In time there arose over Egypt a new king, one who did not know Joseph

*** it-1 p. 778 Exodus ***  ". . .there could have been more than three million persons."

*** it-2 pp. 110-111 Joseph *** Joseph survived his father by about 54 years, reaching the age of 110 years. It was his privilege to see even some of his great-grandsons. Before his death, Joseph, in faith, requested that his bones be taken to Canaan by the Israelites at the time of their Exodus.

So, it obviously required 4 generations to produce the millions who traveled with Moses. Notice the average, even during times when lifespans were recorded up to nearly 1,000 years of age,

*** it-1 p. 28 Abraham ***
Abraham was the tenth generation from Noah through Shem and was born 352 years after the Deluge, in 2018 B.C.E.

That's about 35.2 years when you divide 352 years by 10 generations.

We also already know that one of the meanings Jesus had in mind was about 33 to 36 years from 33 C.E. up until Jerusalem was surrounded in 66 C.E. up until it was destroyed in 70 C.E.

 

 

 

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On 4/9/2016 at 4:25 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

@JW Insider Thanks for the detail. Confirms my feeling on the flexible nature of what the term references.

True. You could have numbers ranging from 30 to 40 to 50-something. This 4 generations in 400 years seems like a maximum, but the Bible explicitly lists about 8 generations during that time (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Joseph's children, Joseph's grandchildren, the generation that died out in the wilderness so as not to see the promised land (a "40-year generation" as Allen pointed out), and also the youngest generation that did see the promised land. Those 8 generations could cut the average down to 50 years.

We studied this several times at Bethel back in the 1970's and 80's. And I know that others were given the same research task long before and long after. The most interesting thing I remember about that research is something that really surprised me when it hit me: Jesus said it would NOT be one generation. His point contrasted with 40 year generation that died out in the wilderness.

So Jesus point was NOT so that we could speculate that, for example, a generation can be up to 50 years and therefore 50 years from that point would be the Jewish "Armageddon" in 70 AD. His point was that most of them would live to see it. Jesus knew that it would be much less than 50 years. If it would be 50 years, then most of them would NOT see it, and there would be no reason for anyone to lift up their heads because their deliverance was getting near.

So evidently the expression "this generation will by no means pass away" was nearly the equivalent of saying:

(Luke 9:27) "But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God.”

Of course, that particular verse can be tied the fore-glimpse of the Kingdom that some apostles received just days after Jesus said it. What happened in Jerusalem's great tribulation, was also only a glimpse of what would happen in the world's great tribulation. The Christian community received a powerful lesson that we can also learn from.

But if we start calculating the maximum length of a generation and use it to determine the farthest range of time for which God Kingdom "will be done on earth" then we have missed the point.

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54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But if we start calculating the maximum length of a generation and use it to determine the farthest range of time for which God Kingdom "will be done on earth" then we have missed the point.

As Peter counseled: "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah" 2 Pet 3:12a

 

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      I don't see anything particularly difficult about the idea myself. 
      I mean, you have a two stage relay. Start point: 1914 CE on one end. Finish point: the "great tribulation" on the other end. The track between is the stream of time.
      As it is impossible for one team of runners to span the distance from the start, 1914 CE, to the finish, the "great tribulation", there are two teams of "anointed" Christians. Starting the race, those who saw the year 1914 eventually meet up with those (born later) who will see the outbreak of the great tribulation. The baton is passed and the race completed by the second group.
      The entire group are seen as the (anointed) generation of the last days in Jesus prophecy. Not really rocket science is it?
      But, in all the discussion around this, I see a phrase in Jesus words at Matt 24:34 I find intriguing. He said that "this generation will by no means pass away"  (NWT)
      Other translations render this differently, many saying simply "will not pass" or words to that effect. Why does the NWT render it in this particular manner?
    • By Anna
      Something I thought might be relevant since we are studying the God's Kingdom book. Not long ago, in a WT article, it was mentioned in reference to the "Kingdom being preached in all the inhabited earth" that this will not mean that literally everyone on Earth would have heard about the Kingdom before Armageddon starts.
      When one does a bit of mathematics (not my forte) and calculates the percentage of current Jehovah's Witnesses in comparison to the World's population we arrive at 0.1%. This is a very small percentage indeed. (8 million JW to 8 billion population)
      If we were to assume some averages, and use the United States as a fair example, then we can assume the ratio of 1 publisher to roughly around 400. This seems a fair number since "only a few are the ones finding the road to life". However, as we know, there is practically a non existent ratio when it comes to India and China, two of the world's countries with a population of over 1billion each (the majority of whom have never heard of the Bible, never mind Jehovah's Witnesses).  If we would assume the same ratio of 1:400, then this would immediately create over 3 million Witnesses in each of the two countries, i.e. over 6 million in India and China alone, bringing the total of JWs to over 14 million. If we were to also add 650 thousand in Indonesia, 485 thousand from Pakistan, and 402 thousand from Bangladesh that adds another 1.5 million bringing the total to over 15 million, almost doubling the Witnesses today.
      If we go by the fact that all people are equal in Jehovah's eyes, and that no nation is above another when it comes to salvation, and that all people are basically the same, then we have to assume that there are people in those countries who, if given the chance, would embrace the truth and put themselves on Jehovah's side and create that ratio of 1:400.
      With that in mind, it is evident that either there is going to have to be a lot of preaching done, verging on the miraculous, in order to bring in over 7 million new Witnesses within the allotted time of the "Generation", or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him.
      Or, is "this Generation" a lot longer than we think.....
      Any scriptural thoughts?
       
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