WATCHTOWER FALSE PROPHECIES

[SonOfcaleb]

I'm not particularly concerned about what you think is true, or what your definition of truth is, as its patently obvious what this thread is about and the discussion you're attempting to goad. My position has been very clear and is based on facts. Yours conversely is based on tendentious reasoning that i've proven to be false, ergo lies. Now these aren't my words as you claim. The Reasoning Book under the aptly titled heading "False Prophets" says the following:-

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Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

These are the words of the governing body in black and white. As i've repeated numerous times this is a very easy position to understand. As we are not prophets your claim regarding "Watchtower false prophecies" is obviously false.

The Reasoning Book continues:-

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The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ’s presence, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan’s wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah’s purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.
Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God’s permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God’s Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise earth.
Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.

All of this concurs with what i've said already in this thread.

[Jesus.defender]

2 hours ago, SonOfcaleb said:

I'm not particularly concerned about what you think is true, or what your definition of truth is, as its patently obvious what this thread is about and the discussion you're attempting to goad. My position has been very clear and is based on facts. Yours conversely is based on tendentious reasoning that i've proven to be false, ergo lies. Now these aren't my words as you claim. The Reasoning Book under the aptly titled heading "False Prophets" says the following:-

These are the words of the governing body in black and white. As i've repeated numerous times this is a very easy position to understand. As we are not prophets your claim regarding "Watchtower false prophecies" is obviously false.

The Reasoning Book continues:-

All of this concurs with what i've said already in this thread.

1877 'The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3." (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).
1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)
1880 "We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D., 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. xii. 1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age. (Zion's Watchtower November, 1880 p. 1)
1886 "The outlook at the opening of the New Year has some very encouraging features. The outward evidences are that the marshaling of the hosts for the battle of the great day of God Almighty, is in progress while the skirmishing is commencing. … The time is come for Messiah to take the dominion of earth and to overthrow the oppressors and corrupters of the earth, (Rev. 19:15 and 11:17, 18) preparatory to the establishment of everlasting peace upon the only firm foundation of righteousness and truth." (Zion's Watchtower, January, 1886;Watchtower reprints I, p. 817)
1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)
1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')
 

[HollyW]

14 hours ago, SonOfcaleb said:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prophecy

Simple Definition of prophecy

• : a statement that something will happen in the future

• : the power or ability to know what will happen in the future

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prophesy

Simple Definition of prophesy

• : to state that something will happen in the future

As per the defintion of each word above prophecy is not the result of prophesying. Prophecy comes from divine foreknowledge EG Jehovah God. Prophesy is a merely a describing word indicating a belief of something that will happen in the future. EG Not of divine foreknowledge.

 

I think this a bit of a stretch..Hyperbole if you will. The fundamental tenets of the Jehovahs Witnesses faith EG the principles that we live by which have been established since 1AD have been around for over 2000 years. There is no other Christian religion who adheres as strictly as we do to the teachings of Jesus and the early Christians of 1AD. In that respect we are without paralell among ALL Christian faiths in recorded history.

Even the early Christians spent many hours deliberating over doctrinal issues such as circumcision or blood. Some of these proved to be very serious issues that required guidance and further mediation/direction from the governing body in Jerusalem, Ac 15:6-29. Now if men annointed directly by Jesus such as Paul, and early Christians who were priviliged to be Apostles and Disciples of Jesus witnessing Jesus in the flesh along with his ressurection but argued over doctrine how much more so difficult a task is that for the current governing body who are 2000 years removed from those early Christians! Now i'm using this as an illustration to show the inherent fallbility of imperfect men. To expect an infallable understanding of the scriptures and thus all doctrine is unreasonable, as everything can't be known in perfect detail even with regular study.  Either way you're only talking about nuanced changes in understanding.The fundamentals of our faith have not changed. In addition im sure you'll struggle to find other Christian faiths who have adjusted their understanding of scripture when most of them have an unwavering, unchallengeable dogma such as the Trinity, worship and veneration of 'Saints' or Papal infallability as examples.

You seem to be making the point that the prophesying the WTS has been doing has not been inspired by God----which we already knew!

However, your religion's founder believed the dates he had come up with were God's dates:

 1894, July 1, ZWT p.226: 

We see no reason for changing the figures-- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the WATCH TOWER of Jan. 15, '92. We advise that it be read again.

http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf

Does "false teacher" sound more reasonable to you than "false prophet" when it comes to all these things the WTS has said would happen (but didn't)?

 

[SonOfcaleb]

Well you clearly didn't know the difference between Prophecy and Prophesy as evidenced by your responses which is why i provided the dictionary definitions for further clarity. If you recall you said;

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I'm not sure how your reasoning concludes prophecy is not the result of prophesying

 

Now I suggest you read your qoutes as CTR never said they were his dates. The qoute says regarding the End of the Gentile Times;

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"They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours"

Regardless 1914 we believe was the End of the Gentile times as per Daniels prophecy and Jesus was installed as King in the Kingdom.

As for your claim about false teachers im going to be blunt, not only are you now moving the goal post as its conducive to our arugment to do so, your claim is simply nonsense. False Teachers merely on the basis of the Bible alone wouldnt garner over 8 million baptized publishers. The Jehovahs Witnesses are the fastest growing religion in the world out pacing Islam and Christendom significantly, the lata whose seen their numbers wane considerably, and all we're armed with is our Bibles.

Now if you believe the JWs are false teachers or prophets thats of course our perogative. But dont use spurious sources, along with spurious reasoning to back up what is clearly a disingenous and most of all false pretext, as i've provided you with an abundance of evidence along with FACTS that throughly debunk and disprove your assertion.

[HollyW]

On 7/25/2016 at 5:57 PM, Jesus.defender said:

1894 "Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? 'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Zion's Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, 1894 p. 1677)

 

Have you noticed what is being said about this particular false teaching in the recent WT book, "God's Kingdom Rules"?

On page 22 there's this:

"Long before 1914, the Bible Students said that a time of trouble would begin in that marked year."

The truth is that long before 1914 they were saying the time of trouble would END, not begin, in 1914, just as you've posted.

ZWT 7/1/1894 p.226:

"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."

The statement in the 2014 book, "God's Kingdom Rules" isn't a false prophecy or misunderstanding or wrong expectation or human error---it's an outright lie. 

[HollyW]

On 8/1/2016 at 2:24 AM, SonOfcaleb said:

The last prophet Jehovah sent was his son Jesus Christ. No prophets have existed on Earth since Jesus acension to Heaven.

I'm sure i could find the source of the content that you've copy/pasted but i think that would be a waste of my time as Jehovahs Witnesses have never prophesied anything. We are not prophets. So you probably want to change your subject heading....

The WTS would disagree with you since they consider the apostles John and Paul as prophets, along with Agabus, and the daughters of Philip, 

The older publications of the WTS are available online at these websites:

http://www.ctrussell.us/ctrussell/ctrussell.nsf, 

http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/ 

and http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/

 

[HollyW]

17 minutes ago, SonOfcaleb said:

Well you clearly didn't know the difference between Prophecy and Prophesy as evidenced by your responses which is why i provided the dictionary definitions for further clarity. If you recall you said;

 

Now I suggest you read your qoutes as CTR never said they were his dates. The qoute says regarding the End of the Gentile Times;

Regardless 1914 we believe was the End of the Gentile times as per Daniels prophecy and Jesus was installed as King in the Kingdom.

As for your claim about false teachers im going to be blunt, not only are you now moving the goal post as its conducive to our arugment to do so, your claim is simply nonsense. False Teachers merely on the basis of the Bible alone wouldnt garner over 8 million baptized publishers. The Jehovahs Witnesses are the fastest growing religion in the world out pacing Islam and Christendom significantly, the lata whose seen their numbers wane considerably, and all we're armed with is our Bibles.

Now if you believe the JWs are false teachers or prophets thats of course our perogative. But dont use spurious sources, along with spurious reasoning to back up what is clearly a disingenous and most of all false pretext, as i've provided you with an abundance of evidence along with FACTS that throughly debunk and disprove your assertion.

I understand the problem you're facing. The only defense you can come up with against the evidence from the WTS publications themselves is that these false prophecies weren't actual prophecies since the ones prophesying claimed they weren't prophets inspired by God.  The evidence proves they were not inspired by God, but it also proves they thought what they were teaching was coming from God, just as Russell said about his dates being God's dates.

You mention "spurious sources".  Are you referring to the WTS publications this evidence is coming from?

[Witness]

On 8/1/2016 at 2:24 AM, SonOfcaleb said:

The last prophet Jehovah sent was his son Jesus Christ. No prophets have existed on Earth since Jesus acension to Heaven.

I'm sure i could find the source of the content that you've copy/pasted but i think that would be a waste of my time as Jehovahs Witnesses have never prophesied anything. We are not prophets. So you probably want to change your subject heading....

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?  These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).