The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming

[JW Insider]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:31 PM, Arauna said:

Russell believed that Jesus would start ruling in heaven in 1914 - which was calculated correctly.  Russell thought it was at this time that Armageddon would take place - which was wrong.

I'm sure others have picked up on the fact that Russell, never, in his entire life ever believed that Jesus would start ruling in heaven in 1914. He understood that Jesus had become King in 33 C.E., but also that he had turned his attention toward earth's affairs during his presence, and shortly after coming into his invisible presence and took his great power and authority to become King in 1878.

This gets to the problem I mentioned before about honesty. You are not dishonest in believing what you believed about Russell. But you probably never picked up on the very careful wording the Watchtower has employed to "imply" that Russell believed this about 1914 without actually saying it. This updated, careful wording shows that the Watchtower writers are very well aware that Russell did not understand even this one point that we currently teach about 1914.

Before the Internet became a place where such things were "caught" and discussed, the practice of the Watchtower was generally to just claim that what you said above was true. I have found about 10 examples prior to 1998 that make the same false claim, very similar to this one:

• *** w98 9/15 p. 15 par. 1 Waiting in “Eager Expectation” ***
• Similarly, a prophecy providentially caused sincere 19th-century Bible students to be in expectation. By linking the “seven times” of Daniel 4:25 with “the times of the Gentiles,” they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914.

O course, it's a false claim, and has been corrected more recently by re-wording it, as the Bible Teach book does:

• *** bh p. 215 par. 3 1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy ***DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914.
• *** bh chap. 8 p. 84 par. 23 What Is God’s Kingdom? *** During the 19th and 20th centuries, sincere Bible students progressively discerned that the waiting period would end in 1914.

And the Watchtower, too:

• *** w14 1/15 p. 12 par. 3 100 Years of Kingdom Rule—How Does It Affect You? *** Toward the end of the 19th century, light began to shine on a 2,500-year-old prophecy recorded by Daniel: “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.” (Dan. 2:44) The Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant.

The implication is still there, of course, and unfortunately, it fools many Witnesses into thinking that the earlier claims were true, when it was stated in a way that was demonstrably false:

• *** w54 6/15 p. 370 par. 4 The Revelation of Jesus Christ *** 4 Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the world-wide advertising of Christ’s return and his second presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah’s witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur.

Technically, ideas about changing Christ's presence from 1874 to 1914 were being floated as early as the 1920's, and most of relevant changes happened between 1929 and 1931, but it wasn't until 1943 that we officially dropped 1874 as the time when this great event (Christ's presence) occurred. This is at odds with the idea that Jesus' presence was like "lightning that lit up the entire sky from one horizon to the other horizon" and therefore we assume that at least one person must have had their spiritual "eyes of understanding" open to see that his presence had begun in 1914. Part of this problem is also in that same claim that  Russell and Rutherford and the other Bible Students understood that the "Gentile Times" ended in 1914. But as I mentioned above, the entire concept of what the Gentile Times meant was quite different from what we mean by that phrase today. Today it is OK for the Gentile kings to continue ruling uninterrupted, only saying that 1914 was a year when their lease ran out, although they can continue on for at least a century (so far) and this shouldn't concern us.

A problem with it from a Biblical perspective, however, is that it appears very insulting to Jesus himself, making him look like a "lame duck" ruler whose rule in say, 1961, was no more effective in keeping the nations from trampling God's chosen ones, than if we had claimed that this same rule had started in 1878. The claim makes Jesus look very ineffective with respect to the times of the Gentiles. There are now more nations ruling without any respect for Christ Jesus than there ever were in the past!

[Arauna]

I have seen so many precedents in the Bible where Jehovah instructed people to act out certain events to portray an actual event that would take place in future.   When Abraham offered up Isaac it was a future portrayal of the willing ransom sacrifice of Jesus.  Isaac was young and could have pushed his old father away.  The aversion we feel when we read this event is actually the aversion that Jehovah felt when he had to allow the offering up of his son and go the full way. Abraham was fortunate - he did not have to go the full way.   The physical temple was also a picture of the future events as were all the Jewish festivals.  All have specific meaning for us today - a greater fulfillment 

There is the incident where a prophet had to marry a harlot and produce children - to demonstrate how Jehovah felt about Israel and their future.  There is another incident where a prophet had to lie on one side for a particular number of days and then again on the other.... this was in literal obedience of what Jehovah ordered him to do - and fellow country men would have noticed it and commented on it..... and the word spread.... So it was a picture of how Jehovah felt and what he would do.  These prophets could not have obeyed these instructions fully if they did not receive help from Jehovah to maintain what they were doing.

Believe me - Jehovah - does NOTHING if it does not serve a purpose.  He is logic and his thoughts are way above ours.... and if we meditate upon it we see how it fits in with everything else.  My name for instance - a family name from 18th century- comes from the place where Isaac was offered up on mount Moriah (next to Zion).  Later on this ground belonged to a Jebusite, named Araunah. Jehovah ordered David to buy this ground on the mount from Araunah/Ornan... and later the temple of Solomon was built on this exact same site.  This demonstrates the consistency of Jehovah - that the same place Abraham offered up Isaac, became the same place where the temple was built... and now an Islam dome is built on the rock so the Jews cannot rebuild the temple...  to fulfill prophesy.... This is "physical" proof that the temple and its way of worship is no longer valid to Jehovah. Jesus predicted its destruction and when Jesus died - the physical curtain to the most holy tore open.  These are all 'physical' things that happened which were related to each other even though they were thousands of years apart -  and prove the consistency of Jehovah in fulfilling certain events. Small details that people do not notice until they look at it closely.

Jehovah in some cases also used foreigners to do his will.   Cyrus the Great was an anointed person to do the will of Jehovah..(predicted 200 years ahead of time). Thereafter Cyrus went on with his wars and was killed by a woman warrior. 

The gentile times being portrayed by a very proud 'pagan' ruler who became 'beastly' is a good way to describe beastly rule - especially if one reads the scriptures in Daniel and realizes that it is all about the right of Jehovah to give the power to whom he chooses - and of course we know that Jesus is the ultimate one who has the "right to the throne" that Jehovah will give him. 

One realizes that there is more to these events than meets the eye.  In Nebuchadnezzar's day, most kings in ancient times were paranoid because they could not hold onto their thrones.  History is full of rulers who killed their own sons or family because of challenges to the throne. Both Harrods did this (Antipas and the Great) and Sennacherib was murdered by his sons.  

Nebuchadnezzar would not have lasted off the throne for 7 years if Jehovah did not protect his throne for him in this "beasty" time... and as the scripture indicates - Jehovah gives the throne to whom he pleases.  Nebuchadnezzar and his children were totally vulnerable in this time as well as his wife.  Neriglissar - 2nd successor after Nebuchadnezzar -  was found in a fountain - murdered.  (Jehovah is the one who allows for rulership) 

What was the purpose of giving a pagan king this lesson and have it written for us in the Bible? To teach humiliation by Jehovah?  Or that Jehovah is the one the preserves and he can give the rulership to whom he wants.   He allows pagan rulers to rule... but when the time comes for his choice to come on the throne - no one will stop him...... It was written down for our benefit- to serve a purpose for Jehovah's faithful followers. Was it not for the reason that his people would later investigate (Daniel 12 ) in "end of the days" and understand what it was all about? 

The time has come - those who search - will find....

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/5/2016 at 3:06 PM, Arauna said:

Believe me - Jehovah - does NOTHING if it does not serve a purpose.  He is logic and his thoughts are way above ours.... and if we meditate upon it we see how it fits in with everything else.

I believe the same thing. But I also believe that when Jehovah says what the purpose was that we would be presumptuous if we turned around and said that this wasn't the only purpose, and that there was a more important purpose. It's as if we are saying that it wasn't good enough that Jehovah's word said 'It is you, Nebuchadnezzar' and that 'ALL of this was fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar.'

In fact, if you recall, Daniel (Belteshazzar) said he wished it could apply to someone besides Nebuchadnezzar:

• (Daniel 4:19-37) 19 “At that time Daniel, whose name is Bel·te·shazʹzar, was alarmed for a moment, and his thoughts began to frighten him. “The king said, ‘O Bel·te·shazʹzar, do not let the dream and the interpretation frighten you.’ “Bel·te·shazʹzar answered, ‘O my lord, may the dream apply to those hating you, and its interpretation to your enemies. . . . [however] . . . 22 it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the ends of the earth. . . . 24 This is the interpretation, O king; it is the decree of the Most High that must befall my lord the king. 25 You will be driven away from among men, and your dwelling will be with the beasts of the field, and you will be given vegetation to eat just like bulls; and you will become wet with the dew of the heavens, and seven times will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he grants it to whomever he wants. 26 “‘But because they said to leave the stump of the tree with its roots, your kingdom will be yours again after you come to know that the heavens are ruling. . . . 28 All of this befell King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar. . . .“To you it is being said, O King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, ‘The kingdom has gone away from you, 32 and from mankind you are being driven away. With the beasts of the field your dwelling will be, . . . . . . I was restored to my kingdom, and even more greatness was added to me. 37 “Now I, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are just, and because he is able to humiliate those who are walking in pride.”

At any rate, those things you said about other Bible passages are stated in the Bible itself to have the added meanings you mentioned. The March 15, 2015 Watchtower indicates that we would be presumptuous to take it upon ourselves to decide that every narrative or parable has these kinds of specific additional meanings that we can add to the Bible ourselves. For me, it is enough that Daniel 4 fits the entire theme of the Bible about the kingdoms of men: that they really only rule by Jehovah's permission and that the ultimate control of the fate of these kingdoms is still in Jehovah's hands.

The actual story was about how even a king who was so powerful that his rulership extended to the ends of the known world, was haughty and didn't realize that he only ruled due to the permission of a God that he barely recognized as even existing. He didn't even grant his great power to his own God's, but to his self alone. He needed to be humbled. He was too haughty and presumptuous.

This was related, as all Bible events are, but it was not the same lesson that Christ's Messianic kingdom learned in 587 BCE. Jesus didn't have to apologize for a lesson learned in order to take back the Messianic kingship. Jesus already knew that Jehovah was the Most High.

If we try to take some pieces of various narratives and parables and experiences of Bible characters and make them mean specific things that teach a good lesson then that's probably not a dangerous thing. But what if we make that decision just because we want to say that we are the only group of people who have insight into the times and seasons that we are not supposed to concern ourselves with. What would be the purpose in doing that? Why do the one thing we have recently counseled ourselves against doing, just so that we can also go against what Jesus said about the times and seasons being in the Father's jurisdiction. Remember, not in our own jurisdiction, not the Son's, and not even the angels. This is surely like treading where angels fear to tread.

And if you have watched closely the way some Witnesses discuss this, it's as if this great insight is the "proof" that we can also reach up into the heavens and claim to be the greatest and most privileged of God's people, because "Jehovah never does anything without first revealing it to his own prophets."

 

[JW Insider]

35 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The gentile times being portrayed by a very proud 'pagan' ruler who became 'beastly' is a good way to describe beastly rule - especially if one reads the scriptures in Daniel and realizes that it is all about the right of Jehovah to give the power to whom he chooses - and of course we know that Jesus is the ultimate one who has the "right to the throne" that Jehovah will give him.

Jesus has a right to a Messianic, non-Gentile throne, and Nebuchadnezzar was given permission to take a pagan, Gentile throne. These are two different things. It is true, as you say, that Jehovah can use anything or anyone to do his bidding, and serve him. He used Nebuchadnezzar as the obvious punishment to the Jews. Jeremiah speaks of him as a servant in this manner. And similarly, as you said, Cyrus, became his servant in the similar words of Isaiah.

But these kingdoms are still - and always - two different things. You are confusing them. The Gentiles are not being presented as beastly in this verse, it's the Messianic Kingdom ultimately given to Christ Jesus which is supposed to be acting beastly. Nebuchadnezzar's Kingdom is given to others who rule "sanely" in his stead, while HE becomes beastly. Remember it's the seven times when the Messianic rule is out of commission that is pictured here. It is therefore the 7 times (ostensibly 2,520 years) when the Messianic rulership is debased and therefore "beastly" and humiliated in our teaching.

Nebuchadnezzar is not allowed to rule during this beastly time, which is why his kingdom was given to non-beastly persons. It was given back to him when he was no longer beastly. In our explanation, Jesus' kingdom was therefore given to him when that Messianic rulership was no longer debased and humiliated.

This is one of the problems with switching the Gentile Times with the non-Gentile Times.

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/5/2016 at 3:06 PM, Arauna said:

Or that Jehovah is the one the preserves and he can give the rulership to whom he wants.   He allows pagan rulers to rule... but when the time comes for his choice to come on the throne - no one will stop him...... It was written down for out benefit- to serve a purpose for Jehovah's faithful followers. Was it not for the reason that his people would later investigate (Daniel 12 ) in "end of the days" and understand what it was all about? 

You are absolutely right on this point, and I like the way this point gives added meaning to the "bands of copper and iron" that were needed to protect the life of this "tree." In a very correct and historical sense you remind us that there is no way his rulership would have been preserved through "seven times" without a higher power looking out for him.

An interesting point about the "end of days" might as well come up now. As I'm sure you know Peter spoke of the "last days" as starting in his day, quoting Joel. Paul spoke of being in the last days where they were experiencing critical times and warned Timothy how this would effect him. Hebrews starts out speaking of how they were now in the last days now that Jesus had arrived on the scene and gone to heaven. Peter and Jude speak of what people were now saying and doing and that it was a sign of the last days.

Those points are surely not very controversial. But also notice that Daniel said that his words would not be open and understood until the last days. Then, in Revelation, John says that this time was now at hand and now the scroll was now being opened and understood. He quoted Daniel often and showed how the meaning was now being revealed. If Jesus was right, we need no further chronology schemes to bring us down to our day. All time-based prophecy already pointed to Christ in the first century. (Hebrews 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:10-12)

• (Hebrews 1:1, 2) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, . . .

• (1 Peter 1:10-12) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search. 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ and about the glory that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven. . . .

Therefore, when the book of Revelation indicates that the Gentile Times were 1,260 days or 42 months, couldn't this be related to the same prophecy where he said that Jerusalem would be surrounded by encamped armies and soon destroyed? I wouldn't take this idea too far, but I find it curious that this time period according to Josephus and Roman history corresponds to about 42 months, during which time it was revealed beyond question that there were witnesses representing two olive trees, not just one. I wouldn't go so far as to apply the time period directly, but it might explain as a symbol why Revelation ties the Gentile Times to the olive trees, and why Paul also tied the times given to the Gentiles, to the olive trees.

Paul identified the olive trees in Romans as the witness to Jews and the Gentiles. The witness to the Jewish nation was now complete and, as Jesus had predicted in Matthew, Mark and Luke, the whole world got the witness at that time that the gospel was from this time onward, a message to all nations. (Mathew 24:14)

For any who would like a review of the olive trees as Paul explained them, I'll graft it onto the end of this post:

• (Romans 11:11-24) 11 So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. 12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean! 13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if their being cast away means reconciliation for the world, what will the acceptance of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also. 17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that it is not you who bears the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

 

[JW Insider]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:31 PM, Arauna said:

Russell believed that Jesus would start ruling in heaven in 1914 - which was calculated correctly.  Russell thought it was at this time that Armageddon would take place - which was wrong. They did not  yet understand the scriptures referring to a "great crowd" - a great group of people that Jehovah would bring out of mankind and who would survive Armageddon.  Revelation 7: 9+ 14

Another thought here. Russell understood the great crowd to be a large group of professed Christians who were anointed and who would go to heaven after suffering through the months or even years of chaos brought about by the Great Tribulation. One of the problems with the timeline was that Russell expected the great crowd to go through many more months of tribulation prior to 1914, because they needed to undergo more suffering and discipline as they had not quite reached the "high calling."

Those of the "high calling," (the 144,000; Russell included) had proved themselves through a combination of their character development and the fact that they had understood the timeline. This is how important the "timeline" was to Russell and his readers. You could not be of the high calling unless you adhered to the timeline because only the "wise" virgins understood the timeline to keep their lamps burning.  According to Russell, those who didn't realize that the "midnight call" to the Lamb's wedding feast had already gone out in 1859 (halfway between 1844 and 1874) could not be of the high calling. Those who didn't accept the timeline, the foolish virgins, were the Christians who had completely given up on chronology and therefore let their lamps die out. Russell became less concerned about the 1844 and 1859 dates but he believed these foolish virgins would include the "great company"/ "great crowd"/ "great multitude". This ultimately became all the rest of the anointed Christians who would go to heaven AFTER suffering through the great tribulation. (For quite a time it was thought that the tribulations should have started in 1910 to allow for such events to occur in time for 1914.)

Interesting that A H MacMillan (GB/FDS) gave talks starting in 1915 that blamed the great crowd for the fact that those of the "high calling" didn't go to heaven in 1914. The "great crowd" were still given a bad reputation as materialistic and unconsecrated which explains insults made about them (in the Watchtower) even after they were identified as an earthly group in the early-to-mid 1930's. It was only the rest of currently non-Christian mankind who would make up the earthly class prior to about 1932.

[JW Insider]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:31 PM, Arauna said:

Revelation 12: 6-12 Clearly shows:- . . . - When Jesus takes authority in the heavens he would throw Satan and his demons out of heaven. (Jesus sat at the right hand of his father until 1914 when he received the Kingdom power from his father and threw Satan out.) The scriptures goes on to show that Satan would then create havoc on earth because he has a "short period of time left"   This scripture clearly shows that there would be a period on earth when Jesus would be ruling invisible from heaven amidst his enemies Ps 110:1+2.

This is not the only way to read Revelation 12. Through the centuries, Bible commentators have been able to see another way that isn't obvious until we begin to tie in all the other scriptures that touch upon the same subjects as Revelation 12. Again, I'm not saying that the following idea is right, or that it is the only other option besides the one we currently teach, but I'll provide the possible alternative only because Revelation 12 is so often tied into our teachings about 1914.

First, a revelation does not necessarily refer only to the future. Revelation itself says:

• (Revelation 1:19) 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these. . .

Recall that the Revelation of Micaiah (1 Kings; 2 Chron) revealed a recent prior, past event. The revelation of what had gone on behind the scenes (in heaven) in the book of Job was a recent and current situation in heaven that explained the events on earth. Even "revelations" in Daniel often refer to the current time of the kings of Babylon. So there should be no reason that the book of Revelation could not also be revealing things that were, are, and are yet to come.

With that in mind, note that this is the most common way outside of our teachings to understand Revelation 12. The symbols are the same ones that refer Biblically to how Jesus was born of a God's woman, Israel, yet Satan gathered up forces to try to defeat him, at his physical birth and at the birth of the kingdom, just prior to his death, to keep him from sitting at God's right hand. (Also called, "the right hand of the throne of Majesty." Remember that Paul shows that this "sitting at God's right hand" can be paraphrased as "ruling as king" in 1 Cor 15:25:

• (1 Corinthians 15:25)  For he must rule as king [sit at God's right hand] until God has put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus has indeed therefore been ruling invisibly from the time he sat at God's right hand. One of the first things he said after his resurrection is "all authority has been given me in heaven and on earth." Paul and John both refer to him as "King of Kings." So there was not necessarily any waiting while Jesus SAT on a kingly throne at the right hand of the majesty. A king does not have to stand up to rule. A king is still a king while he sits on the throne.

As far as the other idea that Satan was angry because he was just thrown out of heaven, well, this is correct. But Jesus said it happened in his day.

• (Luke 10:18) 18 At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.
• (1 Peter 5:8) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.
• (Luke 22:31) 31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat.
• (John 12:30-33) . . .. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.” 33 This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.
• (John 16:10, 11) . . .because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
• (Hebrews 2:14) . . .so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,

It's true that there are more enemies that have not yet been brought to nothing, but Jesus rules during this entire period, he waits for the proper time to accomplish these phases of his kingship, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't already above all the kingships and rulerships and principalities back at the time the Bible said that this happened -- from the time he sat at God's right hand. We already have a king-priest after the order of Melchizedek, both king and priest since 33 C.E.

 

[Arauna]

Thank you dear brother for the above.   I always remember 1 Cor 1: ²⁶ For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. ²⁷ But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; ²⁸ and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, ²⁹ that no flesh should glory in His presence. (also read verse 20 - 25)

Satan developed an ego - and thought he could do things better than god.... ... Adam and Eve chose independence - which is also related to ego.  One can (as you quoted above) trace all problems that people have to this one problem - ego and subsequent independent thinking.   Yes, I have to watch myself on this.....

Whenever there are problems between people - one can trace it to the root cause : independent thinking, ego and hence non-cooperation in some way.  May humility before Jehovah safeguard us all.  When we serve others and show self-sacrificing love it is harder to be prideful and egotistical but with our inclination to independence (treacherous hearts) we musty constantly measure ourselves by reading the words of Jehovah...and stay in Jehovah's love - and not move away....

 

[Arauna]

I do not confuse gentile rule with messianic rule. The period that the tree was stumped  depicts Nebuchadnezzar's rule (gentile rule) and when the band is removed it depicts the Messianic rule when Jehovah gives the rulership to Jesus at the end of the gentile times - Jesus is the one who has the right to the throne...

[Arauna]

If I give an illustration - it is to get a point across..... I do not expect a person to apply every minute detail to such a degree that the illustration is no longer relevant and loses its power.... that is nitpicking.   Similarly, I do not understand what you are trying to say -  because you are trying to see things that are not there  so you can refute the "beasty" time of Nebuchadnezzar to not be compared with gentile times..... but you are finding obscure things to reason upon.

I think it is shortsighted of you that you cannot see a correlation.   It fits in perfectly with the central theme of the bible (which is about human rule versus direct sovereignty by god) and it also fits into a perfect timeline ..... but I guess you have never thought of it that way...  

Ephesians 1:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, ⁹ having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, ¹⁰ that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both^[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Dictionary: NW translation uses the word - administration.... managing his purpose throughout the ages....

Dispensation

(Gr. oikonomia, "management," "economy").

• The method or scheme according to which God carries out his purposes towards men is called a dispensation. There are usually reckoned three dispensations, the Patriarchal, the Mosaic or Jewish, and the Christian. (See COVENANT, Administration of in Insight of Scriptures.) There were so many stages in God's unfolding of his purpose of grace toward men. The word is not found with this meaning in Scripture.

I see the purpose unfolding in a timeline throughout the ages - just a few mentioned below....

• 4026 B.C.E. Adam created

• 1943 B.C.E. Abrahamic covenant validated

• 1513 B.C.E. Israelites leave Egypt

• 1513 B.C.E. Mosaic Law covenant -

• 1512 B.C.E. Tabernacle completed

• 1473 B.C.E. Israel enters Canaan - united under one God

• 1467 B.C.E. Major conquest of the land completed

• 1467 B.C.E. Tribes receive land after conquest

• 1117 B.C.E. Saul anointed as king

• 1026 B.C.E. Temple inaugurated

• 1077-1038 B.C.E. David’s reign

• c. 1070 B.C.E. Davidic covenant

• 1037-998 B.C.E. Solomon’s reign

• 607 B.C.E. Babylon destroys Jerusalem

• Jehovah uses Nebuchadnezzar to predict the next 5 world powers - to understand timeline and to recognize the powers as they come on the world scene.

• Daniel: 70 week prophesy indicating when Jesus would arrive and how he would be cut off - (central part of the purpose of God ) and how the gentiles would later be included)

• Gentile times and prophesy about the time when Jesus would receive his future kingship - given before the birth of the Christ.  He would not receive an earthly Kingdom but would take up rule in heaven - " my kingdom no part of this world"

• 2 B.C.E. Birth of Jesus

• Jesus gives last days prophecies of Jewish system and indicates that it would have a greater fulfillment.

• 33 C.E. Death of Jesus -

• 33 C.E. Outpouring of holy spirit Pentecost

• Paul explains to Hebrews how Jesus fulfilled the law and how he is the Passover lamb.

• John completes the Bible and give us indication of 1000 year reign and how the government will function. Events in the final days before the final destruction. Events after the destruction....

 

From earliest times of man - the Bible states that the “luminaries in the expanse of the heavens” were to serve in making “a division between the day and the night; and . . . as signs and for seasons and for days and years.” (Ge 1:14, 15; Ps 104:19) Human reckoning and recording of time periods has continued from Adam’s day till the present hour.—Ge 5:1, 3-5.  

After the flood - most pagan cultures kept extremely busy with record keeping of the position of the stars, the sun and moon (birth of Zodiac and mathematical calculations of the stars) - and advanced measurements of time in Sumer and Egypt and many other cultures.  (360 degrees come from ancient Sumer, 60 minutes in an hour, 365 days in a sun-year.  

Towers/ziggurats  were viewed as gateways to the heavens for the soul to traverse on a journey through the stars after death.  Many pyramids have passageways with exact dimensions of the earth in relation to positions to certain stars.... in many cultures all over the earth this is the case.  Ancient cultures on earth calculated an built towers to the gods in similar way with dimensions depicting the stars.

• If the rest of mankind was so busy calculating time - why would god keep his own people backward?  Would it not be logical that he would give them a few prophecies regarding important steps in his purpose so they could realize that his purpose is moving forward? .... This could give them more faith... especially as the final days of this system is drawing closer.

[Arauna]

There is no 'assumption' that the year has 360 days.  The Israelites used the "moon year" with a short 13th month every 4th year...

However, revelation clearly gives the number of days for 3 and a half. So one only needs to double this number to get to 7. Quite simple...

 

[Ann O'Maly]

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

It seems to me, that Pastor Russell was referring to Christ taking control over the Church in 1878 ...

You mean you believe Russell thought Christ only assumed dominion over his Church in 1878? I can't find any evidence for that. It would suggest that Christ's Church has been without a Head from 33 CE to 1878. You surely don't think Russell believed that, do you?

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

... not an actual statement which has nothing to do with the impression of the harvest time of 1914, or the temple inspection of 1918 or the spiritual deliverance of appointing the governing body in 1919.

Russell had no concept of a temple inspection in 1918 or an appointment of a GB in 1919 - even before his death in 1916. This is where it would benefit you to learn something about Watchtower history.

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

THE PRESENCE (PAROUSIA) OF CHRIST.
Some may have confounded our remarks on the presence of Christ in a spiritual body,
with the presence of the spirit of Christ; but they are quite distinct. The latter never left
the church; consequently in that sense He could not “ come again.” Of His spiritual
presence He said:“ Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” We refer
to the personal presence which did go away, and will come again,— a spiritual body .
The Greek word generally used in referring to the second advent— Parousia, frequently
translated coming — invariably signifies personal presence, as having come, arrived*
and never signifies to be on the way, as we use the word coming . This fact is recognized
by many who are looking for the Lord, but the error under which the church in general is
laboring, is that of supposing that presence implies sight, manifestation, appearance. In
the Greek, however, other words are used to express revelation, appearing and
manifestation, viz.: phaneroo — rendered shall appear in “ when He shall appear, &c.,”
— and apokalupsis **— rendered, shall be revealed— 2 Thess. 1:7.

Thanks for this quote. The part I've colored in red supports what I've been saying - that for a person to be present, that person has to first come/arrive. 

How do your other quotes negate my previous points?

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

You people keep insisting the two ideologies are linked. FALSE!!! They are NOT.

One ideology derived from the other. 

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

By the way O’Maly, I asked you first to prove that Christ was NOT enthroned in the heavens in 1914.

As I said, JWs make an assertion nobody else does. It is up to them to provide evidence. Anyway, you may have missed this from the first page of the thread:

"The 1st century Christians believed Jesus was already ruling amidst his enemies in their day, from as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven and sat down at his Father's right hand. - Acts 2:34-37; Eph. 1:20, 21; Heb. 10:12, 13; Rev. 3:21."

JW Insider also provided scriptural reasoning on why it couldn't have been 1914.

You have yet to produce any amongst all that word salad.