Are Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to vote?

[Guest Nicole]

Are Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to vote?

[Outta Here 2,119]

I'm going to give the simple answer.

Yes, of course they are.

A better question might be "What issues do Jehovah's Witnesses conscientiously refrain from voting on?"

[John Houston 281]

Yes, the way the question was asked is as if we are brain dead or something. We can do whatever we want. But the real question why would we if we truly love Jehovah as our God. And believe that his kingdom is our only hope? Are we allowed?, that question is somewhat insulting. But I overlooked that person stupidity in asking it, due to their ignorance of our core beliefs.

[The Librarian 3,637]

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Vote? I have seen this question hundreds of times on many forums.

I remember this was big change for me back in 1999. Historically speaking, voting was a definite “no-no” for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Many brothers and sisters are still reluctant to vote due to our old tradition of not permitting witnesses to vote.

Remember to not judge your brother or sister if he or she decides they want to. I have seen many faces and comments from some toward those that even talk about voting.

I will add this to the comprehensive Timeline of New Light

Agape!

 

 

 

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης 12]

I think the question is not so stupid. Ask any Jehovah's Witness in Greece and will tell you that the voting was forbidden in the past. And even now some brothers and sisters advertise in the preaching work that we go to vote but we vote with a white paper... and of course the people answer:... then why go voting in the first place.... because in Greece the winner takes all neutral votes... so is like voting the winning party. Anyway I think God will not be displeased if I will vote a good mayor who will fix the road in front of my house over a mafioso who will go to elections for mayor just to steal people's money. I mean there is no connection between my mayor and God's kingdom.

[JAMMY 179]

THE WATCHTOWER (SIMPLIFIED EDITION) APRIL 2016

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² One way we pay back “God’s things to God” is by not taking sides in the political issues of this world. We are neutral in these matters. (

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) Since Jehovah  allows human governments to rule, we do not oppose them. We also do not get involved in any patriotic or nationalistic activity. (

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) We do not try to change governments or try to influence politicians, and we do not vote in political elections or become politicians

[James Thomas Rook Jr. 3,708]

ARE  WE  NOW  ALLOWED  TO  VOTE ?

The WTB&TS is involved in all kinds of political activity ... most recently having the Brotherhood of 8 million people and more (?) sent letters trying to persuade the Russian Federation to change its political policies towards Freedom of Religion, and non-interference with Jehovah's Witnesses. 

An estimated 64 MILLION of Jehovah's Witnesses letters flooded the country's leaders to try and get them to change their policies.

Unintended consequences of that gave the Russians approximately 11 boxcar loads of paper to dispose of  (firewood?), and through the Universal Postal Union's terminal duty contracts with all nations, 70% of the face value of the stamps, which amounted to 56 MILLION DOLLARS, CASH, of the Brotherhood's hard earned money. 

This does not count the time of about ( 64m x 20 minutes per letter  = 21,333 hours, or 10.3 "man years" ) of Jehovah's Witnesses time and productivity .... TO POLITICAL ACTIVITY.

My wife just told me that now ... the Society's policy is that voting is a matter of personal conscience .... where "before", it was strictly forbidden under pain of disfellowshipping.

I apparently have not kept up if this is true.

So my question is ... is this true ?

.... and if so ... why did the corporation policy change?

Are we now allowed to vote ?

 

[Matthew9969 201]

So much for Jehovah not being a God of confusion.

[Jack Ryan 717]

Jehovah's Witnesses are known to be politically neutral and for refusing to vote. They have suffered imprisonment and even death (such as Malawi) for abstaining from involvement in political affairs. However, the requirement not to vote has varied over time. Although few Witnesses vote, since 1999 it is technically a conscience matter. The latest elders manual - Shepherd the Flock of God - does not mention voting at all.

Conscience Matter

Watchtower 1999 11/1 pp.28-29

Questions From Readers - How do Jehovah’s Witnesses view voting?

There are clear principles set out in the Bible that enable servants of God to take a proper view of this matter. However, there appears to be no principle against the practice of voting itself. For example, there is no reason why a board of directors should not take a vote in order to arrive at decisions affecting their corporation. Congregations of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses often make decisions about meeting times and the use of congregation funds by voting with a show of hands.

What, though, of voting in political elections? Of course, in some democratic lands, as many as 50 percent of the population do not turn out to vote on election day. As for JehovahÂ’s Witnesses, they do not interfere with the right of others to vote; neither do they in any way campaign against political elections. They respect and cooperate with the authorities who are duly elected in such elections. (Romans 13:1-7) As to whether they will personally vote for someone running in an election, each one of JehovahÂ’s Witnesses makes a decision based on his Bible-trained conscience and an understanding of his responsibility to God and to the State. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) In making this personal decision, the Witnesses consider a number of factors.

First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being "no part of the world," they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.

Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an "ambassador" representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:20) JehovahÂ’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of GodÂ’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of GodÂ’s heavenly Kingdom, JehovahÂ’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.

A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22, The New English Bible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.

Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.

Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.

In view of the Scriptural principles outlined above, in many lands JehovahÂ’s Witnesses make a personal decision not to vote in political elections, and their freedom to make that decision is supported by the law of the land. What, though, if the law requires citizens to vote? In such a case, each Witness is responsible to make a conscientious, Bible-based decision about how to handle the situation. If someone decides to go to the polling booth, that is his decision. What he does in the polling booth is between him and his Creator.

The November 15, 1950, issue of The Watchtower, on pages 445 and 446, said: "Where Caesar makes it compulsory for citizens to vote . . . [Witnesses] can go to the polls and enter the voting booths. It is here that they are called upon to mark the ballot or write in what they stand for. The voters do what they will with their ballots. So here in the presence of God is where his witnesses must act in harmony with his commandments and in accordance with their faith. It is not our responsibility to instruct them what to do with the ballot."

What if a Christian woman’s unbelieving husband insists that she present herself to vote? Well, she is subject to her husband, just as Christians are subject to the superior authorities. (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 2:13-17) If she obeys her husband and goes to the polling booth, that is her personal decision. No one should criticize her.—Compare Romans 14:4.

What of a country where voting is not mandated by law but feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth—perhaps they are exposed to physical danger? Or what if individuals, while not legally obliged to vote, are severely penalized in some way if they do not go to the polling booth? In these and similar situations, a Christian has to make his own decision. "Each one will carry his own load."—Galatians 6:5.

There may be people who are stumbled when they observe that during an election in their country, some Witnesses of Jehovah go to the polling booth and others do not. They may say, ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses are not consistent.’ People should recognize, though, that in matters of individual conscience such as this, each Christian has to make his own decision before Jehovah God.—Romans 14:12.

Whatever personal decisions Jehovah’s Witnesses make in the face of different situations, they take care to preserve their Christian neutrality and freeness of speech. In all things, they rely on Jehovah God to strengthen them, give them wisdom, and help them avoid compromising their faith in any way. Thus they show confidence in the words of the psalmist: "You are my crag and my stronghold; and for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me."—Psalm 31:3.

Not Allowed

"Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock" (1991) pp.139,140
Jehovah's Witnesses maintain neutrality with regard to the political and military affairs of the nations. (John 17:16; rs pp. 269-76)

They do not interfere with what others do as to voting in political elections, running for or campaigning for political offices, joining non-neutral organizations, shouting political slogans, and so forth. (w86 9/1 pp. 19- 20; w68 6/1 pp. 351-2) [See also w99 11/1 pp28-9 Q from R]

Since true dedicated Christians are "no part of the world," if a member of the congregation unrepentantly pursues a course in violation of his Christian neutrality, he thereby disassociates himself from the neutral Christian congregation. (John 15:19; 17:14-16; w82 1/15 p. 31)

Elders should talk to one known to be contemplating taking such a course, since he may be doing so in ignorance. (Ps. 119:67; Gal. 6:1; 1 Tim. 1:13)

If he disregards the help proffered and pursues a course in violation of Christian neutrality, a committee should send the facts substantiating the disassociation to the branch office on the S-77 and S-79 forms. [See also ks91 p143]

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What Does the Bible Really Teach? Chapter 15 paragraph 12
as shown at

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April 3rd 2010

True worshipers are no part of the world. When on trial before the Roman ruler Pilate, Jesus said: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” (John 18:36) No matter what country they live in, Jesus’ true followers are subjects of his heavenly Kingdom and thus maintain strict neutrality in the world’s political affairs. They take no part in its conflicts. However, Jehovah’s worshipers do not interfere with what others choose to do about joining a political party, running for office, or voting.

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jv p.673
In some lands, voting in political elections is viewed as an obligation. Failure to vote is punished by fine, imprisonment, or worse. But JehovahÂ’s Witnesses support the Messianic Kingdom of God, which, as Jesus said, "is no part of this world." Therefore, they do not participate in the political affairs of the nations of this world.

---

uw p.166
However, JehovahÂ’s Witnesses do not meddle in politics, no matter what the country in which they live. They do not interfere with what others do as to joining a political party, running for office or voting in elections. But, since Jesus said that his disciples would be "no part of the world," JehovahÂ’s Witnesses take no part whatsoever in political activities.

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sj p.16
In many schools, students are voted into an office or a position, such as class president. Some schools have small-scale political campaigns, including campaign buttons and posters advertising candidates. The purpose is to familiarize young people with the machinery of politics. However, Witness youths do not mix in school politics, either by accepting an elective office or by voting others into office. So if either nominated for or elected to an office, they tactfully decline. In this way they follow the example of Jesus who withdrew when the people wanted to make him king

---

Watchtower 1964 5/15 p.308
To mature Christians, the question of what attitude should be taken in the matter of political elections presents no issue. In totalitarian countries oftentimes people are forced by law to go to the election polls and sometimes persons are even picked up at home and brought to the polls. Even in certain democracies the law makes it compulsory for the citizens to go to the election places. In no country do Jehovah’s witnesses take part in politics. They are not of this world. (John 17:14) Therefore they do not take part in voting at elections. They do not compromise their neutral standing in matters of politics, however, if they go to the polls and make the ballot void in some manner, either by crossing it out or by putting down, for example, the words "For God’s Kingdom." That is telling what he is for. By doing this their ballot will become void; it will not count in the election of a man. They have complied with the law and gone to the polls and likely avoided punishment. Remember Jesus’ counsel: "Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves." (Matt. 10:16) No one should be condemned for acting so. "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God."—Rom. 14:10.

---

Watchtower 1959 7/1 p.398
Jesus Christ was not subversive though he was so accused by his religious opposers. (Luke 23:2) He refused to become politically active in this worldÂ’s affairs because, as he said: "No one can be a slave to two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other." (Matt. 6:24) It is because of such admonition by Jesus that JehovahÂ’s witnesses have refused to mix these interests in government. But this does not make them subversive. The refusal of JehovahÂ’s witnesses in the past to fulfill such patriotic duties as voting, saluting a flag or participation in the armed forces, is an insurance to every country that JehovahÂ’s witnesses will not endanger the security of that nation, because they have been refraining from the same activities in all other countries at the same time.

---

Watchtower 1952 6/1 p.346
If he made improper appointments he would become responsible for the sins of such appointees, since he put them in position to commit their sins that hurt the congregation in GodÂ’s sight. So the people who either vote wicked rulers into office or allow them to remain in power must accept responsibility for such rulersÂ’ official acts and sins against God and man.

---

Watchtower 1952 9/1 p.526
"Voting is compulsory, and because the brothers have refused to vote they have been frequently beaten and imprisoned.

Conscience Matter

Watchtower 1950 11/15 pp.445-446 Subjection to the Higher Powers
21 In view of not recognizing worldly political powers as the “superior authorities” ordained by God, but recognizing only God and Jesus Christ to be such now, the Christian witnesses conscientiously refrain from taking part in the politics of this world, yes, even from voting. This has been true of them from the first century on. Testifying to this fact, Ancient Times—A History of the Early World, by Jas. H. Breasted, Ph.D., LL.D., says, under the heading, “1070. Rome persecutes the early Christians,” the following: “The officers of government often found these early converts not only refusing to sacrifice to the emperor as a god but also openly prophesying the downfall of the Roman State. The early Christians were therefore more than once called upon to endure cruel persecution. Their religion seemed incompatible with good citizenship, since it forbade them to show the usual respect for the emperor and the government.”—Page 663, edition of 1916.

22 In some countries today the legislature wants to make all the adult citizens responsible for the government. To enforce the democratic way upon them they are required by law to vote in the national elections. Under such circumstances what are Christians to do, since they are under divine command to keep themselves unspotted from this world? By dedicating themselves wholly to God through Christ they have vowed their unswerving allegiance to the kingdom of God, and they cannot divide their allegiance. So how are they now to proceed? Can they register as qualified voters? Yes. The apostle Paul held onto his Roman citizenship and fought for its rights, even appealing to Caesar in defending his right to preach the gospel. In lands where military conscription is in force JehovahÂ’s witnesses register the same as all others within the age limits, and they write down their relationship to the matter. They remember how Joseph and Mary complied with CaesarÂ’s decree and traveled to Bethlehem-Judah in order to be registered at their home town. (Luke 2:1-5, NW) But it is when these ministers of JehovahÂ’s Word are called up for induction into the army that then they present themselves and take their stand according to GodÂ’s Word and pay to him what belongs to him. Likewise where Caesar makes it compulsory for citizens to vote. After they have registered and when election day comes, they can go to the polls and enter the voting booths. It is here that they are called upon to mark the ballot or write in what they stand for. The voters do what they will with their ballots. So here in the presence of God is where his witnesses must act in harmony with his commandments and in accordance with their faith.

23 It is not our responsibility to instruct them what to do with the ballot. They must act in accord with their conscience as enlightened by the study of GodÂ’s Word. In lands where voting is not compulsory, the ministers of JehovahÂ’s Word remember that his people are theocratically organized. According to the divine law under which they are organized the popular vote of the majority does not put servants in office, but all appointments in the theocratic organization are from God and through those whom he puts in authority in his organization.

[Space Merchant 551]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. No, Christians who are serious about neutrality are not suppose to be voting, however they can be in defense of Freedom of Religion, which is in conjunction with what the Apostle Paul taught regarding Civil Disobedience and when and where and how it is done by the Christians, in this regard, the Jehovah's Witnesses are in a defense of trying to preserve what they practice and preach, as well as the Bible, for the Kremlin has been cracking down on all Bibles prior to the ban, they say they target JW Bibles, but really you can get can a visit from the police or FSB if you have a Bible in public.

Plus there is also another factor, for JWs in Russia are Anti-Nationalist, not even taking part in war glorification ceremonies and or often targets in institutions and threaten, and prior to the election, Jehovah's Witness crackdowns were in full force, for the Kremlin believed that JWs neutrality would hinder those who are not of the faith to not vote, perhaps not vote for Putin, for this was included in a list of things as to why the ban was issued.

Also I think it is obvious of how Putin won, that end result for the election was clearly rigged, but if you say something, you'll end up like most Kremlin Critics, or perhaps end up like Boris Nemtsov.

So in short, Christians will be in defense of religious Freedom, even if it means Civil Disobedience against a political party, but never will they take sides, granted all sides and spots on those sides are held by the Kremlin and their connections.

Other than that, this is all the Russian Church, the Kremlin and the Duma care about, this video speaks for itself:

This other image is whom was in connection with the Pope to get rid of JWs to begin with:

The master mind:

So even if they had the chance to vote, they get pegged with rocks with the crest of the Kremlin (Coat of arms of Russia) painted on it, figuratively speaking.

For the biggest clue that people missed is the fact a JW family had been awarded, and the only reason Putin was present is because the RoC and the Duma were not there during the ceremony - for a very specific reason.

@Matthew9969 Not really, for if there was a halt to prevent the JWs from influencing neutrality, clearly the Kremlin had put in motion on how to get rid of them, but little did they know Religious Freedom is held to a high regard to the Russians, mainly to those who are outside of and against the RoC. The Kremlin do not even let them preach near any political office that is in regards of voting. Other than that, fighting for religious freedom has nothing to do with voting, if the case involving baker and the 2 homosexual men had taught us anything or that of the two women some days ago.

[Space Merchant 551]

@Jack Ryan Fighting for religious freedom has nothing to do with voting. Granted this is Russia, JWs are not only allowed to vote, they are kept away from voters because of suspected influence of neutrality, mainly for the fact that there is a HUGE amount of Russians who are Anti-Kremlin/RoC, which resulted in them being called heroes, for said heroes are targeted, hence the various websites having the pictures and information of people as if they are targets for the hunt should the situation call for it.

[James Thomas Rook Jr. 3,708]

It seems that 1999 was the last time the WTB&TS gave it's corporate guidance on this matter.

Anybody know about any current updates ... either via publications, talks, or actual practice?

I am thinking about voting in the November Senatorial Elections, here in the United States, with a clear conscience ... but I of course do not want to run afoul of the Congregation's Elders current conceptions or mis-conceptions, and be "burned at the stake".

uh .... so to speak.

[Space Merchant 551]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Yeah, I don't think they are the type to vote and or pick sides in the realm of politics, but even if they never were neutral, having the option of Trump and or Hilary is a nightmare, granted we have a nightmare in the White House right now. But that being said, they've been neutral for a long time an their neutrality was only brought forth in the 1940s when JW kids refused to stand for the flag that resulted in JWs being hunted down by angry mobs that is of ku klux klan levels of crazy, moreover, the Bellamy Salute (Nazi Salute) had been changed after some time, probably after World War II. Present day because of the whole kneeling thing in the NFL, people are tailing about the JWs' neutrality in this regard, and because of the nations of JWs, a lot of people do not stand for the flag for various reasons, but mostly religious reasons, like a child who months back refused to stand for the flag and says he only stands for God only to be roughhoused by a Teacher who is a Patriotic Nationalist.

But it makes you think, what if kids today were still suppose to o the Nazi Salute/Bellamy Salute even after World War II has long since ended? That would be quite the sight and very eerie, mainly to those who had family members fought in that war to have flashbacks.

If I am not mistaken, I think those who uphold neutrality are often attacked, mainly in African countries where political theatre is at play.

 

This is what the Bellamy Salute looks like back in those says:

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[James Thomas Rook Jr. 3,708]

Yeah ....

My allegiance is only to God ... but I will fight with anyone who believes as I do about Freedom and Justice.

It is quite obvious that for the time being, we are on our own .... and we have to do the best we know how.

The only thing necessary for evil to prevail, is Good Men to do nothing.

At least if I screw up, and make a mistake ... it will not cost the Brotherhood 56 MILLION dollars.

 

[Matthew9969 201]

It is bad form to vote only for one party or another solely just because of party affiliation, that is when your in danger of voting strictly for politics rather than substance. Voting also doesn't mean you are choosing party or person over God, that is absurd to think that way. If that were true my favorite color would mean more to me than God because I voted green my favorite color.

 

[Outta Here 2,119]

On 8/8/2018 at 4:57 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

At least if I screw up, and make a mistake ... it will not cost the Brotherhood 56 MILLION dollars.

It could cost your life.....actually worth a lot more....even if you don't agree!!

[James Thomas Rook Jr. 3,708]

6 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

t could cost your life.....actually worth a lot more....even if you don't agree!!

Probably a lesser risk than my getting killed in my car, driving to Home Depot ... by a factor of about 20,000.

The GOOD news is that Bill can now spend all day, every day ... day in and day out ... 24/7/365 ........ with Hillary.

[Outta Here 2,119]

1 minute ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

lesser risk

Risk assessment is a complex skill, :

• Identify the hazards
• Decide who might be harmed and how
• Evaluate the risks and decide on control measures
• Record your findings and implement them
• Review your assessment and update if necessary

but you are an engineer..................

[James Thomas Rook Jr. 3,708]

Risk assessment can be dramatically simplified with a 15 shot magazine, and two spares.

[Space Merchant 551]

7 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

It is bad form to vote only for one party or another solely just because of party affiliation, that is when your in danger of voting strictly for politics rather than substance. Voting also doesn't mean you are choosing party or person over God, that is absurd to think that way. If that were true my favorite color would mean more to me than God because I voted green my favorite color.

What of Paul's dealing with the Temple of Artemis?

That being said, Christians will go to Civil Disobedience should their faith be in subjection to things that can effect it. As we can see here, no political ploy going about such ones, for it is an act of defending their faith to those who are attempting to halt said faith.

And it has been done by all persons, for instance, the whole situation with Christians vs. Satanist activities for the last couple of years, even that one situation in Detroit, the other being at a Cemetery. When it comes to defending what is deemed true, like Paul, anything in the realm of Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience will be in total usage.

That being said, this is Russia we are talking about. The same country that has removed all personnel who will influence others to not pick any side whatsoever, and to not partake in an event that glorifies violence.

[Space Merchant 551]

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

It could cost your life.....actually worth a lot more....even if you don't agree!!

At times it can cost anything. Pour encercler un homme assez longtemps, l'opprimer et le faire souffrir, il finira par se défendre par tous les moyens. meaning if you corner a man long enough, to oppress him and make him suffer, he will end up defending himself by all means.

Christians will and always will subjection themselves to Spiritual Warfare and or Civil Disobedience, which at times even when faced with and or in subjection to grave injury and or possibly death. Even with such intense situations what remains intact is one thing, their belief in what is true.

A Real Christians would never crack under pressure, but you'd be surprised of those who claim to be True Christians break like an egg being tossed into the street.

The crazy thing is a lot of people in the realm of religion do not know what is going on, for there are things not many people know of what is going, hence the type of stuff I tend to dwell in. All I can say things will get worse, with a price tag attached to it.

[Srecko Sostar 1,395]

Here is example how WT neutrality looked before. Before "new light". Before "new understanding", Before "new interpretation". Before "things get from bad to worse".

"....I will support and defend Constitution of US against all enemies, foreign and domestic...So help me God."

[James Thomas Rook Jr. 3,708]

On 8/7/2018 at 4:52 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It seems that 1999 was the last time the WTB&TS gave it's corporate guidance on this matter.

Anybody know about any current updates ... either via publications, talks, or actual practice?

 

[Outta Here 2,119]

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

current updates

lvs. Jan 2018: "Also, Jehovah’s people make a personal decision not to vote for any political party or candidate. This is because we have already taken the side of God’s government.—Matthew 22:21; John 15:19; 18:36."

lv. April 2016: "Voting in political elections.

True Christians respect the right of others to vote. They do not campaign against elections, and they cooperate with elected authorities. However, they remain resolutely neutral with regard to the political affairs of the nations. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) What should a Christian do in lands where voting is compulsory or in a situation where feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth? Remembering that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went as far as the plain of Dura, a Christian, under similar circumstances, may decide to go to the booth if his conscience permits. However, he will take care not to violate his neutrality. He should take into account the following six principles:

1. Jesus’ followers are “no part of the world.”—John 15:19.
2. Christians represent Christ and his Kingdom.—John 18:36; 2 Corinthians 5:20.
3. The Christian congregation is united in belief, and its members are bound together by Christlike love.—1 Corinthians 1:10; Colossians 3:14.
4. Those who elect a certain official share responsibility for what he does.—Note the principles behind the words recorded at 1 Samuel 8:5, 10-18 and 1 Timothy 5:22.
5. Jehovah viewed Israel’s desire for a visible ruler as a sign that they had rejected Him.—1 Samuel 8:7.
6. Christians must have freeness of speech when speaking to people of all political persuasions about God’s Kingdom government.—Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; Hebrews 10:35."

 

 

[Srecko Sostar 1,395]

As far as I know, GB is not against voting, as the principle by which decisions are made, have to make.
But GB uses this "democratic principle" of making a decision, about something that is tailored to the/by "majority", in a way that have "higher meaning", "sacred goal". There are several levels where decisions are made by this "democratic means", by voting. It is at GB level. At the director level of certain departments. At the elders level. At assembly level.
Less important items are often put to the vote in front of the assembly (rank and file members). Of course, the elders presents something in such a way that membership is moved to vote in according to a decision already in line by the elders (or some higher then elders), and only formal confirmation is required/made through voting and resolution.
Making decisions within an organization is actually a matter of how "politics" is carried out by those who are high in the hierarchy.
Thus, within the religion is not carried out "political politics", but "religious politics". :)))
Perhaps it would be better to "throw a cube" (throwing dice, stone, beans or what ever else), as this kind can reduces the impact of human, of various clans and streams within a group. In fact there is a biblical precedent that would allow such way,  how to run a "corporate governance" policy (in religious, financial and other matters).

It is primitive, demode ( démodé ), old fashion way but gives a lot of fun. 

[Space Merchant 551]

16 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

democratic principle

So how does this stem into the realm of politics and the like when those who actually know what The Didache is, Sostar?

Religious politics? Can you give a vital example of this being done by any non-Conservative Christians outside of the mainstream?

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[Space Merchant 551]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. A tad bit off topic, but still somehow pertains to topic, I do not know if you are following everything that is Russia also, but a bit of relation, granted that the RoC was the Cog among Cogs in the wheel that got JWs banned in Mother Russia, the RoC made another move as of recent: 

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That being said, I have to go deep diving on all things Russia in the Russian Language again,to get more information. Время идти на рыбалку.

[The Librarian 3,637]

Here is an example of one JW exercising his right to vote in the USA

 

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

So put it in plain English for a simple man like me please. Have the GB done a U turn on this subject of voting ?

Was it that JW's were not 'allowed' to vote or they would be disfellowshipped ?  And now is it that JW's can chose for themselves in they vote of not ? 

Did people actually die or get injured because the GB said they could not vote ? 

In simple English please. Is this another U turn by the GB ? 

[Guest Nicole]

On 11/9/2018 at 1:15 PM, The Librarian said:

Here is an example of one JW exercising his right to vote in the USA

Is it the old woman? I don't see any brother voting. I know voting is secret but if he is so proud of doing it as the celebrities are posting at their social media, or as he wants us to know addressing us to the photo of Goliath,  why he did not post a photo of him with the PIN I voted or any other sign? Is he affraid that elders get him into a committee? 

 

[Melinda Mills 846]

Must stop using the word "allowed" and at the same time saying it is a personal decision or a matter of conscience.   "Allowed" has the connotation that someone is making the decision for you and you don't need to study the Bible and come to a conclusion.

Using the word "allowed" shows that persons don't understand Christian freedom and that one has to have knowledge and  based on that knowledge make their own decision. Everyone uses his Christian freedom based on the understanding gained from Romans chapter 13. Christians  put Jehovah God first and also respect the superior authorities which were allowed to rule by God to keep order in the earth until his Kingdom arrives. How each Christian does it is for him to decide.

[Guest Nicole]

Thanks for the lesson, what is the term you propose to use? I don't speak English well, so I would be happy to know.

Because if I ask: Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Vote?

The answer is yes because I know the case of a brother who did it,  and I know that such brother got reproved for doing that. 

[Melinda Mills 846]

Do Jehovah's Witnesses vote?  This is correct

They vote at Christian meetings and at their place of work when decision-making  takes preference into consideration.

 

Do Jehovah's Witnesses vote in political elections? 

 Each one decides in accordance with his Bible-trained conscience.

 

*** w99 11/1 pp. 28-29 Questions From Readers ***

How do Jehovah’s Witnesses view voting?

There are clear principles set out in the Bible that enable servants of God to take a proper view of this matter. However, there appears to be no principle against the practice of voting itself. For example, there is no reason why a board of directors should not take a vote in order to arrive at decisions affecting their corporation. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses often make decisions about meeting times and the use of congregation funds by voting with a show of hands.

What, though, of voting in political elections? Of course, in some democratic lands, as many as 50 percent of the population do not turn out to vote on election day. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not interfere with the right of others to vote; neither do they in any way campaign against political elections. They respect and cooperate with the authorities who are duly elected in such elections. (Romans 13:1-7) As to whether they will personally vote for someone running in an election, each one of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes a decision based on his Bible-trained conscience and an understanding of his responsibility to God and to the State. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) In making this personal decision, the Witnesses consider a number of factors.

....

Bold text - mine

The whole article is quoted in a comment above by Mr. Jack Ryan

 

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

14 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Must stop using the word "allowed" and at the same time saying it is a personal decision or a matter of conscience.   "Allowed" has the connotation that someone is making the decision for you and you don't need to study the Bible and come to a conclusion.

Using the word "allowed" shows that persons don't understand Christian freedom and that one has to have knowledge and  based on that knowledge make their own decision. Everyone uses his Christian freedom based on the understanding gained from Romans chapter 13. Christians  put Jehovah God first and also respect the superior authorities which were allowed to rule by God to keep order in the earth until his Kingdom arrives. How each Christian does it is for him to decide.

JW's use the word allowed, and people talking about JW's use the allowed, because it is 'what is allowed and what isn't' by the GB.

The GB are dictators. That is a simple fact.  The GB make rules that is another simple fact. JW's have to submit to the GB rules or get disfellowshipped, another simple fact.. Anyone questioning the GB is disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation' that is another simple fact.

You need to wake up and see the reality of the JW Org and it's GB. It's a bit like saying that Germans in 1940 could talk against Hitler and disobey him. Yes of course physically they could, but they would die for it. And in the JW Org congregants ae told they will get disfellowshipped / spiritually die, if they go against the GB and against the Org. 

So the word 'allowed' is the right word to use when referring to the GB and the JW ORG.. .

[Melinda Mills 846]

So does the GB disfellowship itself when it understands better something it said in the past and changes it?  For example, the superior authorities are Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, now it is the governmental authorities.  They are brothers who understood what this meant before the GB.  That is why all this inquisition should stop. People can believe what they wish to. They don't have to spread everything to cause disorder. 

 

 

 

[Guest Nicole]

 

@The Librarian @Melinda Mills

Bible students are being taught this with the book Keep yourself in God's love. The picture of the brother entering to a church to vote this month  (entering to a church, that should be another topic ?) mentioned in the other post was from USA, so far I know this country is not a land when voting is compulsory. 

 

Voting in political elections. True Christians respect the right of others to vote. They do not campaign against elections, and they cooperate with elected authorities. However, they remain resolutely neutral with regard to the political affairs of the nations. (

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) What should a Christian do in lands where voting is compulsory or in a situation where feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth? Remembering that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went as far as the plain of Dura, a Christian, under similar circumstances, may decide to go to the booth if his conscience permits. However, he will take care not to violate his neutrality. He should take into account the following six principles:

1. Jesus’ followers are “no part of the world.”—

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2. Christians represent Christ and his Kingdom.—

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3. The Christian congregation is united in belief, and its members are bound together by Christlike love.—

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4. Those who elect a certain official share responsibility for what he does.—Note the principles behind the words recorded at 

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    and 
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5. Jehovah viewed Israel’s desire for a visible ruler as a sign that they had rejected Him.—

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6.   Christians must have freeness of speech when speaking to people of all political persuasions about God’s Kingdom government.—

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[Guest Nicole]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

JW's use the word allowed, and people talking about JW's use the allowed, because it is 'what is allowed and what isn't' by the GB.

That is my point, if it were only a matter of conscience, where others have to respect your decisions,  there would not be judicial comitees for this, and as I mentioned before, the brother I know would not have been reproved. Unless they got a new "light" about that theme recently. 

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

52 minutes ago, Nicole said:

That is my point, if it were only a matter of conscience, where others have to respect your decisions,  there would not be judicial comitees for this, and as I mentioned before, the brother I know would not have been reproved. Unless they got a new "light" about that theme recently. 

I would suggest you ignore Melinda Mills. She is like an Ostrich with her head buried in the sand. 

Nicole, you are completely right. We know from true life experience that the GB make rules and the Elders act like policemen. 

This is the same as shunning, JW's  don't know why they have to do it, they just do it out of fear. They are frightened to be reported to the Elders.  

Allowed is the right word. You are right.

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

2 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

So does the GB disfellowship itself when it understands better something it said in the past and changes it?  For example, the superior authorities are Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, now it is the governmental authorities.  They are brothers who understood what this meant before the GB.  That is why all this inquisition should stop. People can believe what they wish to. They don't have to spread everything to cause disorder. 

 

 

 

The GB changed it twice. Firstly it was the Governmental Authorities, then it was God and Jesus, it is now back to the Governmental  Authorities.  It suited their purposes to change it. they are not inspired, not even guided, just devious. 

The GB has tried to make sure that no one else can disfellowship them. Probably another reason they say only they, 8 men, are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. Discrediting all the other Anointed and making them powerless..

The inquisition, as you call it, is very important. So that everyone can see the truth about the GB. How bad they  really are . 

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

Was the Apostle Paul politically motivated when he chose to buy Roman citizenship for himself  ? 

[Jack Ryan 717]

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

I voted LEAVE  on the UK Leaving the EU.

I wasn't voting for a person, i was voting about a situation.

We still have to live here on this Earth until we either die or Armageddon arrives. 

[Outta Here 2,119]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Was the Apostle Paul politically motivated when he chose to buy Roman citizenship for himself  ? 

Oh dear! Not sure that he did actually: 

"So the military commander approached and said to him: “Tell me, are you a Roman?” He said: “Yes.” The military commander responded: “I purchased these rights as a citizen for a large sum of money.” Paul said: “But I have them by birth.”" Acts 22:27-28.

[Srecko Sostar 1,395]

10 hours ago, Josué2 said:

Jésus et les premiers chrétiens votaient-i  ?

No, they used Urim and the Thummim :))))

[JOHN BUTLER 499]

19 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Oh dear! Not sure that he did actually: 

"So the military commander approached and said to him: “Tell me, are you a Roman?” He said: “Yes.” The military commander responded: “I purchased these rights as a citizen for a large sum of money.” Paul said: “But I have them by birth.”" Acts 22:27-28.

I stand corrected. Thank you

[Melinda Mills 846]

 Question asked by Josue2.

The early Christians cast lots to make decisions, after Pentecost they were assisted by the holy spirit. 

*** it-1 p. 129 Apostle ***
At that particular time before Pentecost, however, there were men meeting these requirements, and two were put forth as suitable for replacing unfaithful Judas. Doubtless having in mind Proverbs 16:33, lots were cast, and Matthias was selected and was thereafter “reckoned along with the eleven apostles.” (Ac 1:23-26) 

(Proverbs 16:33) The lot is cast into the lap, But every decision by it is from Jehovah.

After a lively discussion and a summary by James, the chairman, they came to this decision aided by holy spirit.

(Acts 15:28, 29) For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”
 

[Srecko Sostar 1,395]

16 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored

.... did they used Urim and the Thummim?... have they thrown the dice?

 

It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us ...

 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us...

The Holy Spirit and we have agreed ...

The Holy Spirit has shown us that we should not...

For it is seen to the Holy Ghost and to us ...

 

In those times, people of today said so, miracles had took place and ended in 1 century. No more any gifts, no more any inspired words, no more any inspired works. No more inspired writings .... aka publications .... in WT Company :))

So, if Spirit influenced apostles and elders to made decisions, please will somebody say, explain HOW that was happened? How humans and celestial spirits had communicated ....... and made decision ?

 

[Elisabeth Dolewka 50]

j'ai voté une fois pour le meilleur de tous,inégalable et tout puissant.qui  peut être a son niveau. PERSONNE😀

[Outta Here 2,119]

On 11/12/2018 at 8:22 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

So, if Spirit influenced apostles and elders to made decisions, please will somebody say, explain HOW that was happened?

This the subject for a different thread. Why not start it off?

[Josué2 11]

À l’époque des apôtres. Les disciples de Jésus utilisèrent les sorts, conjointement avec leurs prières, pour déterminer qui, à la place de Judas Iscariote, serait un des 12 qui avaient été témoins des activités de Jésus et de sa résurrection ; Matthias fut choisi (Ac 1:21-26). Le mot grec employé ici est klêros, qui est apparenté à klêronomia (“ héritage ”). Klêros figure en Colossiens 1:12 et en 1 Pierre 5:3 où il désigne l’héritage, ou part, que Dieu a donné aux chrétiens.
Toutefois, il n’est plus question d’utilisation de sorts après la Pentecôte 33 de n. è. pour choisir les surveillants et leurs assistants ou régler des questions importantes. Le choix des surveillants et de leurs assistants devait être fondé sur la façon dont ils manifestaient le fruit de l’esprit saint dans leur vie (1Tm 3 ; Tt 1), tandis que d’autres décisions s’appuyaient sur l’accomplissement des prophéties, l’aide des anges, les principes de la Parole de Dieu et des enseignements de Jésus et, enfin, la direction de l’esprit saint (Ac 5:19-21 ; 13:2, 3 ; 14:23 ; 15:15-19, 28). L’apôtre Paul écrit : “ Toute Écriture est inspirée de Dieu et utile [...] pour remettre les choses en ordre. ” — 2Tm 3:16.
Ceci dit le sujet et un vrais foutoir car il question de tout et de n'importe quoi.🙁

[Guest Indiana]

 

[Srecko Sostar 1,395]

13:36 video - we support our communities ( i guess he talking about worldly communities) through volunteer service or compulsory civilian service where that exists and we pay our taxes

Supporting communities would mean: to give those in need - bread, job, shelter, clothes, etc. without expecting from them to accept Bible study, going to meetings and similar. JW are discourage from WT publication to participate in social work by some kind of volunteer service organized by "worldly" people. JW community, as far as it is known, not organizing public kitchens, shelters or other social helping acts for people out side JW community.

To merging, as he suggesting , Compulsory civilian service and Volunteer service is funny. These are two different activities. 

Another question that he put to listeners is, Where such services exists?. Is that mean how in places where such services not existing, JW NOT participated in any sort of Supporting communities? Preaching is not supporting communities, that sort of service is "mandatory" for JW members. 

Compulsory definition - required; mandatory; obligatory

 Volunteer/ing (service) - to offer to do something that you do not have to do, often without having been asked to do it and/or without expecting payment; an altruistic activity where an individual or group provides services for no financial or social gain "to benefit another person, group or organization"

 

13:56 video - but neither do we criticize those in power undermine their policies or demonstrate for political change .... neither do we condemn any political position

14:48  video - neutrality means we don't take sides

This is not correct statement. Sending Letters to Putin and Medvedev, to Russian Government (or to any other as past WT publications shows) and to other Individuals who are powerful,  with call to change their Policies, Political decisions and Juridical decisions is DIRECT Attempt to influence on Worldly System, Political, Social, Religious system of Russian Government, as last example we have . 

In purpose to do this, WTJWorg lawyers, run the lobbying and making legal moves, that are initiated in front of the Political and Judicial bodies of Western countries, from, so called Democracy.

And, do not forget, JW preaching how this Democratic Countries of West are under direct "satan's influence". So, tell us please, how it is possible that Representatives, Ambassadors of only true religion, of JHVH  Earthly Organization asking for help "satan's Servants" in The West Side that are in opposition to their Colleges on The East Side ? 

[Witness 1,211]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

13:36 video - we support our communities ( i guess he talking about worldly communities) through volunteer service or compulsory civilian service where that exists and we pay our taxes

Supporting communities would mean: to give those in need - bread, job, shelter, clothes, etc. without expecting from them to accept Bible study, going to meetings and similar. JW are discourage from WT publication to participate in social work by some kind of volunteer service organized by "worldly" people. JW community, as far as it is known, not organizing public kitchens, shelters or other social helping acts for people out side JW community.

To merging, as he suggesting , Compulsory civilian service and Volunteer service is funny. These are two different activities. 

Another question that he put to listeners is, Where such services exists?. Is that mean how in places where such services not existing, JW NOT participated in any sort of Supporting communities? Preaching is not supporting communities, that sort of service is "mandatory" for JW members. 

Compulsory definition - required; mandatory; obligatory

 Volunteer/ing (service) - to offer to do something that you do not have to do, often without having been asked to do it and/or without expecting payment; an altruistic activity where an individual or group provides services for no financial or social gain "to benefit another person, group or organization"

 

13:56 video - but neither do we criticize those in power undermine their policies or demonstrate for political change .... neither do we condemn any political position

14:48  video - neutrality means we don't take sides

This is not correct statement. Sending Letters to Putin and Medvedev, to Russian Government (or to any other as past WT publications shows) and to other Individuals who are powerful,  with call to change their Policies, Political decisions and Juridical decisions is DIRECT Attempt to influence on Worldly System, Political, Social, Religious system of Russian Government, as last example we have . 

In purpose to do this, WTJWorg lawyers, run the lobbying and making legal moves, that are initiated in front of the Political and Judicial bodies of Western countries, from, so called Democracy.

And, do not forget, JW preaching how this Democratic Countries of West are under direct "satan's influence". So, tell us please, how it is possible that Representatives, Ambassadors of only true religion, of JHVH  Earthly Organization asking for help "satan's Servants" in The West Side that are in opposition to their Colleges on The East Side ? 

One lie after another, after another, after another.  It gets so tiring.   You would think JWs would see just one of them, and ponder on it; catching it before swallowing it down - hook, line, and sinker.  Oh, the leaders are so adept at lying for the benefit of their idol.   It is a shameful thing to be blindly led along by liars and sharing their intoxicating "wine".  If we swallow falsehoods and repeat them as truth, we  don't escape judgment by putting the blame on those who taught us.  We are individually responsible to speak truth; if in the least, we believe and have faith in God and Jesus Christ.  1 Pet 4:3-5

Blindness, idolatry, lies, go hand in hand.