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Will people who have committed suicide get a resurrection?

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According to Gods word the Bible, through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world and death through sin,

and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned Romans 5:12. Romans 6:23 also says For the wages

sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord. Jesus died for all mankind, opening

up a chance of everlasting life here on earth, by means of a resurrection. I believe that Jehovah reads our hearts, he nows 

the pain people feel to end there life, it is a sin to take your own life, but Jehovah is the judge of all circumstances.

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Awake Magazine, September 8, 1990, pages 22-23. Jehovah raises up the dead, which includes those who, due to depression, mental illness, or despair, took their lives. We worship a loving, forgiving, living God Jehovah. We do not condemn those who had not or have not come to know HIS love.

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Jesus deliberately went on a known "suicide mission" and died because of that decision.

I think I know where you are coming from on this, but the example needs a bit more thought.

In John 8:22 didn't the Jewish religious leaders accuse Jesus of being on a suicide mission? "The Jews then began to say: “He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’’”

It seems a bit insulting to suggest that Jesus was on some sort of Kamikaze stunt. Even the term "suicide mission" seems to be wide of the mark in view of it's definition: "a task which is so dangerous for the people involved that they are not expected to survive."

It seems out of harmony with the thought of Psalm 16:10 "For you will not leave me in the Grave.You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit."

If Jesus had not been absolutely and correctly convinced of the resurrection in order for him to compete his mission, then surely he would literally have been "pitied more than anyone."?

The "known "suicide mission"" perception would only be in the mind of an unbeliever, surely?

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On 9/20/2016 at 10:35 AM, Shiwiii said:

Which scripture do you have in mind to support this? I'm just curious. 

Bible records show some examples of people committing suicide. Although we find no commentary with these incidences, such is covered in principle in the 6th Commandment, therefore, suicide is an act of murder [killing of oneself and or other]. 

That is, if one is to take in what the Laws found in the Torah are all about, with the inclusion of the Ten Commandments.

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12 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Will people who have committed suicide get a resurrection?

 

Assuming they would OTHERWISE be resurrected, think about THIS:

Jesus deliberately went on a known "suicide mission" and died because of that decision.

It usually depends. As I mentioned in the other thread, someone I know committed suicide due to the pornographic and adult industry as well as her being exposed to public, resulting in her ending her own life, the media who make the news of my late friend tends to spin the information, knowingly.

Other instances being those who have been victim of and or affiliated with anything of the occult, examples such as any man, rich, poor, strong, weak can be subjected to a thing called Black Magic, to my people, it is refereed to as Vodou. If caught off guard, one would either be victim of taking his or her own life and or those affiliated with that influence are hunted down. My cousin was victim due to the fact she was intelligent. Her death was ruled out as suicide in the country, but it was murder, and the only reason it is that way because the corruption of government officials know who's side they are on. Her death was a very, very violent one, another motivation for me to believe what the Bible says about resurrection because her, and my friend, as with others do not have to succumb to that.

Then you have those who kill willfully others and or themselves.

 

As for Jesus, he knew what was coming and he also know that his own God and Father would raise him again, of which took place. But I have to admit, what they did to Jesus before killing him was brutal, can't imagine how bloody things are, but saying that now, I can picture something, granted it isn't nothing surprising of which I have ever seen in the present day of things.

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"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

If looking from this point perhaps they not need resurrection (in a interpretation that is common to this point of understanding) , because they are alive to HIM already/now. Or they will be in some way and meaning and some kind of fulfillment.

:))) problem coming because so many verses exist in The Holy Book

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Bible records show some examples of people committing suicide. Although we find no commentary with these incidences, such is covered in principle in the 6th Commandment, therefore, suicide is an act of murder [killing of oneself and or other]. 

That is, if one is to take in what the Laws found in the Torah are all about, with the inclusion of the Ten Commandments.

So let me ask you this then. As your position holds close to that of the jw, at death is that sin not paid for? I mean the wages of sin is death right? See, I do not subscribe to the idea that once I die all of my sins are paid by my death, it merely means I no longer have the ability to perform more sin. I am only washed clean by the blood of Jesus and my faith in Him. I can't see how suicide is an option if your faith is in Jesus. So in essence, I agree that suicide is wrong and possibly a sin, but I just want to know what is being used as support for such a claim.......especially by the jw, because of the wages of sin = death thing. 

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If we want to answer the question in the title, we may also need to answer to this (as first/primary question or as dual question, together with this in title): What is the difference in whether a person takes life to another man or takes life to himself?

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If we want to answer the question in the title, we may also need to answer to this (as first/primary question or as dual question, together with this in title): What is the difference in whether a person takes life to another man or takes life to himself?

(Genesis 9:6) 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man.

 (Proverbs 28:17) 17 A man burdened with bloodguilt for taking someone’s life will keep fleeing until the grave. Let no one support him.

 Both of these remedies would be difficult to achieve for a man taking his own life. So there is a difference in taking your own life and taking someone else’s life.

 (Revelation 21:8) But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

 Murder is something willful and thought out. Note what the scripture says will happen to murderers.

*** w02 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk

….

Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved.

 =====

You seem quite capable of doing your own research.

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34 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

 

(Genesis 9:6) 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man.

 (Proverbs 28:17) 17 A man burdened with bloodguilt for taking someone’s life will keep fleeing until the grave. Let no one support him.

 Both of these remedies would be difficult to achieve for a man taking his own life. So there is a difference in taking your own life and taking someone else’s life.

 (Revelation 21:8) But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

 Murder is something willful and thought out. Note what the scripture says will happen to murderers.

*** w02 6/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

If someone commits suicide, would it be advisable for a Christian minister to give the funeral talk

….

Any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and no one is in a position to say whether the deceased will be resurrected or not. The minister can concentrate on the Bible truths about death and offer comfort for the bereaved.

 =====

You seem quite capable of doing your own research.

Thanks!

So, according to your respond, can we tell how  Bible said nothing specific about; is taking own life sin or braking some god's law or braking some secular law?

Talking about WT opinion, would be advisable even to go to funeral and to go and give a speech making this thing (suicide) as something shameful, to be judge as inappropriate act of person, and maybe to "mark" family as not appropriate society for community.  

As you see, in my opinion, it is not of such matter Would person who committed suicide  be resurrected, but,  would /will family, friends and JW congregation show comfort, understanding, compassion and love to those who live!?

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

would /will family, friends and JW congregation show comfort, understanding, compassion and love

Bit like the fruitage of the sprit (of which love is mentioned) "Against such things there is no law". Gal.5:23.

Like so many of such questions raised in this forum, this is a matter for individuals to decide. 

 

Dugogodišnja sloboda.

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On 9/26/2018 at 5:44 PM, Shiwiii said:

So let me ask you this then. As your position holds close to that of the jw, at death is that sin not paid for? I mean the wages of sin is death right?

The position has been held by a majority of Christians early on, even predating the Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, the same position can be read in The City of God, by Christian philosophy Augustine of Hippo, 5th century regarding thou shall not kill [be it of oneself and or others]? Once again take the time to look into this information instead of always assuming such a belief is based on a sole faith, the information I paraphrased from was from the United Church source, for this belief predates Jehovah's Witnesses itself and such a belief is still in relevance today and onward.

As for Romans 6:23, the wage(s), or penalty, for sin is death, for in the beginning, no one was a sinner, hence why that verse points to a verse in Genesis, to be more specific, Genesis 2:17. Adam and Eve were created as perfect beings, and all their offspring would have been born as perfect themselves, resulting in no reason for anyone to perish in death. Adam and Eve and all their offspring had the prospect of eternal life in happiness, but due to disobedience, it resulted in Ancestral Original Sin, committed by our first human father and mother and everything that took on afterwards.

Our Father, our God, not only is of total justice and power, a God of love. So he takes the initiative to take, and fix what has been broken. Therefore when we read this verse, Romans 6:23, we can draw the context, especially when we understand it and what it says in part B into C of the verse, but the gift God gives is eternal life by means of Christ Jesus our Lord, for this part of the verse points to 1 Timothy 1:16, 1 John 2:1, 2 and Jude 21.

On 9/26/2018 at 5:44 PM, Shiwiii said:

See, I do not subscribe to the idea that once I die all of my sins are paid by my death, it merely means I no longer have the ability to perform more sin. I am only washed clean by the blood of Jesus and my faith in Him.

A person who has died his or her sins do not stand against him/her. For if it was not for the sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus, and God’s purpose and will that pertains to the resurrection, an individual, he/she would never live again if that were the case.

Regardless, one would remain acquitted from sin, as God would not review the case of the sinner and then sentence him to other kinds of punishment for his sin, for God is Just and according to his purpose, will and order such ones will be held accountable and it will be between said individual and God when that day comes.

That is the great thing about Jesus sacrifice, it provides this amnesty and paves a path for us regarding Salvation.

The thing is about suicide, is that it isn't an option, it is something that is done so willfully and or other by people depending on various situations, be it positive and or negative, some who try to commit and then change afterwards had no idea as to why they were going to do the act in the first place, of which is not always common with those in such a position, others attempt to do so out of depression, fear, and other things, the things I have seen in my case, was due to things of the occult, such as Vodou, that can bring even the strongest of the Christian faith down.

But God is a God of mercy, it will be up to Him dealing with various persons who commit such an act, and the reasons as to why they did so.

On 9/26/2018 at 5:44 PM, Shiwiii said:

I can't see how suicide is an option if your faith is in Jesus.

It isn't an option, but by means of the individual itself, such a path is often chosen, not by anyone else but that individual, as said before this path is chosen by means of various situations, sometimes willfully, mainly to those who are depressed and the like, such ones we should be trying to help out.

Even those who have faith in Jesus and his God are also subjected to this, and some have taken their life, others were helped out before anything bad took place.

On 9/26/2018 at 5:44 PM, Shiwiii said:

So in essence, I agree that suicide is wrong and possibly a sin, but I just want to know what is being used as support for such a claim.......especially by the jw, because of the wages of sin = death thing. 

I've already mention what comes from the Law regarding the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill [Thou shalt not murder], but often times in other cases, some ignore this so they can willfully kill someone else who they think is a threat, at times, or in another discussion had had elsewhere Christians killing Christians and so forth.

Now, for this is where the support and belief stems from in the Christian faith itself regarding the commandments. It isn't far-fetched for Jehovah's Witnesses to have that view, for as stated before, they are Restorationist, and other Christians who are putting forth the practices and teachings of early Christians and the Church, also share this view.

As for mainstream Christendom, they tend to go over such in order to take part in something that is not of God.

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On 9/27/2018 at 12:40 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

If we want to answer the question in the title, we may also need to answer to this (as first/primary question or as dual question, together with this in title): What is the difference in whether a person takes life to another man or takes life to himself?

There is no difference. When a person dies, by his or her hand and or causes someone else to die, it results in a death for an unnecessary cause, not of God, not of the Word, etc by means of the willfulness and negativity of man in some cases, for instance, someone would kill themselves because they didn't win over the heart of some girl/woman, other times, they will kill someone and either flee or attempt murder-suicide, example, Virginia Tech 2007, nuff said. However there is the whole maintaining faith til death whereas some people will actually die in some process to prevent loss of salvation and or the like, but not a suicide I wouldn't say, for instance, if someone came to your home and tells you to stop reading the Bible, denounce God, curse His name, you, having free will have 2 options, you either cease your faith and or maintain it, although the outcome will not be so pleasant, something of which is indeed a reality in Christian persecution.

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On 9/29/2018 at 5:57 PM, Space Merchant said:

A person who has died his or her sins do not stand against him/her. For if it was not for the sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus, and God’s purpose and will that pertains to the resurrection, an individual, he/she would never live again if that were the case.

Regardless, one would remain acquitted from sin, as God would not review the case of the sinner and then sentence him to other kinds of punishment for his sin, for God is Just and according to his purpose, will and order such ones will be held accountable and it will be between said individual and God when that day comes.

That is the great thing about Jesus sacrifice, it provides this amnesty and paves a path for us regarding Salvation.

This part I don't agree with, or maybe I'm not following you completely. 

 

Without faith in Jesus, none of your/my sins are forgiven. Yes, our sins are washed clean by the blood of Jesus, by means of faith, not by us dying. Jesus didn't die for all mankind in the sense of those who reject Him, but rather those who put their faith in Him.

 

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This is where the Romans 6 verse is misused in my opinion by all who claim that upon death all people's sins are erased. This is also where I was drawing the question. If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

Can't see a logic in concluding because death is the consequence of sin therefore sin cannot be wrong??

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3 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Can't see a logic in concluding because death is the consequence of sin therefore sin cannot be wrong??

I think you're missing something, because we seem to be saying the same thing. 

I'm saying if one believes that all ones sins are acquitted at the time of death (the jw interpretation of Romans 6:23) , then suicide and the act of doing so would be absolved/acquitted instantly. I do not subscribe to this thinking as I do not see Romans 6:23 saying that upon death all of your sins are acquitted. 

 

I agree with your statement that the consequence of sin is death, which makes perfect sense, but I'm talking about the belief that the jws hold on Romans 6:23 and how that ties into suicide. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I do not see Romans 6:23 saying that upon death all of your sins are acquitted. 

Oh...I see.

A few alternatives to the usual "wages of sin is death"

"Sin pays off with death" CEV

"For sin pays its wage--death" GNT

"For the payoff of sin is death" NET

"But the product of sin is death" Aramaic

Along with:

"for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin." Rom 6:7 (Weymouth)

Seems to indicate that death is indeed the penalty for sin. This was experienced by the first sinners I believe, as they were warned it would. Of course, the scriptures indicate that even now, those who are dead (in sin) can be made alive spiritually thanks to the atonement of Christ's sacrifice, thus enabling a reconciliation with God through him.

But it is apparent that the power of Christ's sacrifice reaches even into the grave in that "neither death nor life.....will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom.8:38-39. And "God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Ph.2:9-10.

So for me, sin results in death, figuratively, spiritually, and literally. Life, whilst originally a gift from God dependent on obedience, is still a gift from God, dependent on acceptance of the atoning power of Christ' sacrifice.

As for who will or will not receive the benefits thereof, including victims of suicide, there is "one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:42-43. The one decreed by God is best left to the execution of his assigned duties in this regard.

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7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This part I don't agree with, or maybe I'm not following you completely.

As to what part is it what I said here that is of confusion to you? To be brief, if a sinner dies, he would no longer be able to sin, for a dead man cannot do anything at this point, a dead man cannot sin at all as he would in life, however any sin he has done when he or she use to walk the earth, they'll have to answer for, for because of God's Purpose, His Will, His Order, such ones would indeed be brought back to be judged, this goes for all men, even those who commit suicide in regards to the situation of as to why they did so to begin with.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Without faith in Jesus, none of your/my sins are forgiven. Yes, our sins are washed clean by the blood of Jesus, by means of faith, not by us dying. Jesus didn't die for all mankind in the sense of those who reject Him, but rather those who put their faith in Him.

Jesus died so that man can believe in him. For God his Father, is spoken of as loving the world, that is, the world of mankind in need of redemption from sin, the very reason the sacrifice was in play here, we know this because of John 1:29, as with any verse that connects to this verse via reference.

Of course there are those who reject him, but you must take into account even those who reject him end up turning back around, thus accepting the Christ and accepting that he is Lord and believing that the God of the Christ raised him [Jesus] from the dead, for God wants all kinds of men to be saved to gain salvation and to endure until the conclusion of the End Times and the Day of God's Judgement that will be unleashed to those who strongly reject what is true and those who contend against God's Word, those who assume and or think such that is being asked is burdensome when such is to be done.

Even with Jesus' sacrifice we are to maintain faith for it is something that is a hard fight to contend for it, according to the slave of the Christ, of which I professed before in what was said in Jude 3.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This is where the Romans 6 verse is misused in my opinion by all who claim that upon death all people's sins are erased. This is also where I was drawing the question. If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

Romans 6:23 isn't being misused here. Death itself is a sin, or as the Bible puts it, the sting of Death is sin, and to us of mankind, such a thing will continue to creep on to us until Death is done away with for good.

When someone dies, mainly if someone is rejecting the truth, he/she will have to answer to God in front of the White Throne, even should that person take his or her life willfully depending on the situation, some, who do take their life although the act is indeed a sin, such ones will have to answer for God still, and as I said before, God is a God of mercy.

Like I said, the reason why suicide is viewed as a sin by most is because of what the Law in the Torah stated about murder, taking a life, thus committing murder, mainly if it is done so in a situation that is not the best, is sin, be it if you take the life of others and or yourself, granted that life itself is indeed a gift from God, that being said, such things usually depends on the the individual and as to the reason as to why the act was committed.

Other than that, this view has been around for a while, predating all of us, hence the very reason I mentioned City of God.

In the end, no one can escape judgement, for every decision we make, mainly if some are in the wrong, we will have to answer for and God will be the judge of that.

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@Gone Away His focus is regarding Suicide, and the views of those from ancient times to now of Suicide being a Sin, mainly taking into the account of what one of the laws in the Ten Commandments states [thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13], in regards as to why such one commits Suicide.

The verse and or Law from the Torah also as several references, including 2 more from the OT, such as Genesis 9:6, Deuteronomy 5:17, James 2:11, 1 John 3:15, and Revelations 21:8.

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17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

His focus is regarding Suicide

Yes, I discerned this, but this particular crime cannot be separated from the overarching results of mankind's Satan induced rebellion against Jehovahs sovereignty and His means of resolving the related issues.

The partial or combined effect of a range of factors,  Satanic influence, the handicap produced by inherited sin, and the hardening effect on the attitude of those deceived by, and encouraged in, sin's course, produces profound detriment in an individual's personality and life experiences. (Eph.2:2, Heb.3:13, Eph.2:3) This detriment is referred to as a "full recompense" at Rom.1:27, in the sense of an appropriate result of that course, a case of reaping what was sown, even though this may have been as a result of ignorance on the part of many.

Death being the ultimate recompense for sin, it's reversal due to the atoning power of Christs sacrifice and the execution of God's power does not necessarily remove the acquired personality of the individual receiving a resurrection back to life on earth. This of course was demonstrated by Jesus in the resurrections he was empowered to perform. Those whom he resurrected were who they were prior to death, and consequently died again later. Also, even after being brought to life in a spiritual sense, and having died to a former course of conduct, first century Christians were encouraged to "press on to maturity", to "put on the Christ" and as stated above to avoid the hardening power of sin's deception. There were those who sadly fell away from the faith at that time. Additionally, there were outright apostate and unrepentant rebels described at Jude 12 as "having died twice and having been uprooted".

So when humans are resurrected to life on earth as Jesus indicated at John 5:28-29, they will need to "put on the new personailty" and this will be a factor in determining the outcome of that resurrection as to whether it will be for them one of "life or judgement". Once resurrected, those humans will need to "bring every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ" (2Cor.2:10). This may be more challenging for those who have not known or did not comply with God's purposes in their pre-resurrection lives as they respond to the leading of God' holy spirit at that time. However, "when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn". Some will have a head start in this, ("a resurrection of the righteous"), others will have to start a bit bit further back on the blocks due to their personality traits, ("a resurrection... of the unrighteous") Acts 24:15.

The determination of who will experience the resurrection at all rests entirely in the hands of the "Judge of all the earth", and "a man whom he has appointed" (Gen.18:25, Acts 17:31). The outcome for those, including any suicide victims resurrected, will depend on them complying with the direction and encouragement and spiritual healing they receive at that time. 

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Gone away/Space Merchant , I agree with the both of you on your last posts. 

I have spoken to many jws before on this topic (death = sins acquitted) and very adamantly their response has been that those sins are gone, forgiven.  I wondered if there were some here who hold that same view, that once you die all of your sins are gone. If that WAS someone's position, then they would have to settle the idea that suicide could not be a sin, well it would be for a second and gone the next. This topic is a stone in the shoe of those who believe this way. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Gone away/Space Merchant , I agree with the both of you on your last posts. 

I have spoken to many jws before on this topic (death = sins acquitted) and very adamantly their response has been that those sins are gone, forgiven.  I wondered if there were some here who hold that same view, that once you die all of your sins are gone. If that WAS someone's position, then they would have to settle the idea that suicide could not be a sin, well it would be for a second and gone the next. This topic is a stone in the shoe of those who believe this way. 

It comes down to who is applying the Commandments in the Bible or not, for most of us Unitarians and those of CSE and UCG hold to the belief that suicide is a sin, granted early Christians at this time held to the commandments and held to the belief of murder/kill/suicide, etc.

I would recommend asking this or looking for this on CSE, for I know there are a few JWs there like Kris and 4Castle. Kathgar is another one, but not easy to get a hold of.

That being said, regarding that verse we should take into the verse fully as well as with the references. Also if I may add, there is another verse in Romans that is nearly the same with this one, it is verse 7.

Kris posted this a while back: 

    Hello guest!

 

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, regarding that verse we should take into the verse fully as well as with the references. Also if I may add, there is another verse in Romans that is nearly the same with this one, it is verse 7.

Kris posted this a while back: 

    Hello guest!

 

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

 

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

 

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

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52 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

 

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

 

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

 

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45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

 

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

 

you are correct, to a point. 

The law was not abolished, it serves as a measuring stick to show us exactly where we fall short. We are not stoned to death any longer for serious sins, but it does not diminish the fact that serious sins are committed. 

Matthew 5:17&18  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

 

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37 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you are correct, to a point. 

The law was not abolished, it serves as a measuring stick to show us exactly where we fall short. We are not stoned to death any longer for serious sins, but it does not diminish the fact that serious sins are committed. 

Matthew 5:17&18  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

 

17  “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.

    Hello guest!
 18  Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.

Different translation. This is the, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The JW Bible.

But Jesus did fulfil the Law. It was 'accomplished' or it 'took place'. 

It was there to show the Jews how sinful they were, and to prepare the way for Christ.  

It was never there to judge anyone other than the Nation of Israel. 

If a person lives under Law they do not live by Faith in God's mercy, for the law was a curse. Galatians 3 v 10 & 13

10  All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.”

13  Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”

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On 10/2/2018 at 4:11 PM, Shiwiii said:

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

Kris also went on to say the following,

After resurrection all persons righteous and unrighteousness in their previous existence will be able to fully align themselves with Gods will if they choose to. Naturally those who previously had aligned themselves to the extent possible in their imperfect past life will find it easier to conform to Gods plan during the 1000 year judgment day.

He adds quote regarding Judgment Day

And his final remark is the following: So yes all persons resurrected will have a clean slate, as it were, with God. Their eternal salvation is based on how they are judged during the 1000 year judgement day and their successfully withstanding the final testing period when Satan is released for a short time at the end if judgment day.

A Top answer on CSE is the full comment itself, never is the comment portioned because those in both the Christian and Hermeticism CSE space will ask you for detail, examples being if you give a response, be it question or answer about, for instance, is God Male, a simple “yes” will not cut it in this community, so you have to prove what that yes is with biblical interpretation.

That being said, their view isn’t complex nor some convoluted teaching, in addition, it does not dip itself into the belief of the immortal soul doctrine or instant judgment upon death doctrines. Both the good and bad will be resurrected; this includes those of Christ and those who are not of Christ, that is, as well as those who do not even know anything that is in the Scriptures, let alone the ability to read, those who have already died. Those who will be resurrected, the good will not have to face judgment compared to those who bad, and those who are bad will be judged a time that is coming, by means of what we read in the references found in Revelations. Among those in Hades, even the ones who commit suicide will be brought back, some will be met with mercy, others with judgment when everything has been concluded, for like I said, when it comes to suicide, the situation tends to be different.

For those who die, they are unable to commit any acts of sin, for a dead person cannot speak, move (they can explode - literally) or do such as a person who is alive [has life] can do. In the eyes of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they see this also, those in death will have, as Kris stated, a clean slate, for such goes for all imperfect ones, and that clean slate as he mentioned, goes into the belief of those who are aware of the 1,000 year reign/rule of Christ, otherwise known as The Millennial Kingdom, during this time judgment is still in motion, in effect, especially to those who, with a clean slate, are out and about, living for they are no longer dead, but having life – that is, a gift from God, as mentioned in the verse, for it is what will take place afterwards everything is accomplished according to God's purpose, will and order, and Satan the Devil and Deceiver will be destroyed at this point via Everlasting Destruction from the [face of the] Lord, as mentioned in the Bible, as for those with him – those, who are alive, who chooses to go against God and his Christ.

On 10/2/2018 at 4:11 PM, Shiwiii said:

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

Kris did confirm this, but clearly he had more to say, at CSE, you take into account the full response, not part of it or a snippet, for his point to claim was regarding sinners and Judgment. Looking into Kris’ comments and it is understandable of where the position is, as is with others who share this belief, even some scholars’ stand on this specific notion when Judgment and The Millennial Kingdom is in connection to this.

On 10/2/2018 at 4:11 PM, Shiwiii said:

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

Was assuming you were referring to verse 23 at first, only reason I brought up the other verse, however, the context for both verses, although similar, differ also. Like I said before a dead man cannot do anything, he cannot sin and or commit sin for in death there is no life, only those who are living and roam the earth can do things, even sin themselves, for today, be it if they follow the teachings of the Christ and follow his God, and or not. Furthermore, Romans 6:7, in connection to verse 23, as much more to say when you put everything together.

The Commandments are still at play here, granted that the principles from the Commandments alone are still in application to Christians, something of which I was very pressing about months ago when dealing with Trinitarian on this forum, and the fact that I provided references of Exodus 20:13 earlier, for the principle of killing someone and or oneself, for committing murder and or killing someone.

On 10/2/2018 at 5:56 PM, Shiwiii said:

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

I do not see how the interpretation held by Christians is destroyed, for last I checked people like Augustine was not a JW and yet his views are clearly seen regarding death/murder/suicide, as with others in fact, we even have Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer.

A problematic interpretation would be the very fact that the immortal soul, instant judgment, hellfire torment, and more related doctrines is included regarding these 2 verses or the ignoring of those who never knew anything regarding the Scriptures, who are also born sinners, but never got the chance to received amnesty with God, so to speak, moreover, as with those with a total disregard for the references, such as Genesis 3:19, something of which is being taught and professed by several, while on the other side of the spectrum, there are those who do not.

For sin has power over a man who is imperfect. But when a man dies, sin has no hold or ability to dominate the man for him who is dead cannot do anymore sin, but the coming judgment and everything that is concluded, this man, if he does bad, will be judged, I say this because then you have to take into account people who do not have an idea what the Bible is or show clearly oblivious to who the Christ is.

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On 10/3/2018 at 5:02 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

To some extent what is of the Law is still in application in terms of principle, for instance, we are to serve and honor God, as it says in the Law in the Hebrew Old Testament, such is still in application in the Greek New Testament, to the churches to the people, to us even in the present day, for we do in fact do what is needed to adhere to the teachings and to serve God, for the Laws of of are of God’s thinking, something we should not be ignoring.

The Israelites were of Natural Israel and the mediator at the time was Moses, while Jesus mediated for the new one, of Spiritual Israel.

We no longer need to do animal sacrifices because Jesus’ death is what validates and or overwritten this, although Christians do not need to do such, some tend to accept Jesus’ sacrifice, but continue to do animal sacrifices, examples would be, Christians of Mount Gerizim, also known as, Modern Day Samaritans, this also goes for the Sabbath, although no longer required, some do it still.

The Old Law was written by stone, but the New Covenant itself was, in this sense, written in our hearts, to which like that of the old, for the new we follow.

For what has overwritten the old Sinaic Law took immediate affect when Jesus expired. Jesus spoke of this Covenant with his disciples, 11 of them and made promise to them, and extends such when such ones are begot by the spirit, furthermore the mass inauguration at Pentecost where the spirit, the promise from God, had been outpoured to the people.

Christians can and will still be judged, mainly for those who allow themselves to do what is bad, even when receiving guidance and or criticism from such ones like Paul and onward.

For when it comes to the Christian faith, you are to focus on and maintain on what is true, otherwise you will be caused to stumble, fall even and the next action will be on your part: whether to remain on the ground, or the other option, to stand back up, headstrong and continue to walk on the path that is correct.

The Law, the Commandments, as said before, is of God’s thinking, of which we can observe by means of study. The commandments themselves are of principles that are still in application and such is not irrelevant. Many of these principles are scattered throughout the Greek New Testament.

Granted the subject matter is of murder/suicide, what I have brought up in a response to Shiwiii was Exodus 20:13 regarding the thou shall not kill [murder] that stems from the Law, for when you seek the references, such as 1 John 3:15 among several (already mentioned), this is still in application despite Spiritual Israel’s Laws overwriting Natural Israel’s Laws.

Another example would be to not commit adultery Hebrews 13:4, as with several other verses, to which it stems from Exodus 20:14, with the one about murder/killing is right above this one in the previous verse in the Old Testament.

On 10/2/2018 at 5:09 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

Suicide to the majority is painful and it is frightening for some, granted such ones in a state of depression and fear and or other before taking his or her own life, I know the impact for the experience is still haunting to me, for the it not was not the suicide that hurts the person more, it is what led up to it, for some people, they tend to blame God for this, forgetting this verse: James 1:13.

For it breaks not just the person who is victim before ceasing to live, it breaks those of whom the person has relationships with and or interaction, examples like a friend, a brother/sister, uncle/aunt, etc, the same effect as to ones who are murdered or is the murderer, only this time a larger pool of people included from both sides. For if you actually dealt with people who are in a state, show signs of suicide it is there, at times, they’re subtle with it to the point such isn’t revealed to both family and friends before it is too late – for it is more than just to simply say life is not good, one cannot be simple minded when it comes to things such as these.

Unfortunately, Mr. Butler, death is a state of sleep(Luke 8:52 (Matthew 9:23-26, Mark 5:38-43, John 11:11, Acts 7:60, Acts 13:36)), yes, and such ones will be awaken, and for such ones there will be those who will receive God’s mercy and those who will be judged when everything comes to a conclusion. Suicide itself is a sin, however it is not an unforgivable sin as some make it out to be, mainly to those who hold to the doctrine of living after death or something in some shape and or form, knowing they themselves that humans are not spirits.

As for what you said regarding Baptism and Paul, The context regarding Baptism can be traced back to the origin of the Baptism, and or if you, using a literal map seeing Israel from a bird’s eye view, if you know the history, it would be very clear.

On 10/3/2018 at 12:58 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Different translation.

As long as the Strong's and the manuscripts line up, what is spoken of is correct, it is only a problem and or a biblical violation if the Strong's/Manuscript do not line put, for the last time I've educated on you this simple fact, with context, you didn't like the truth.

That being said, as with what @Shiwiii have stated, such is going off topic, and yet a response has to be made.

AS for thinking some of the Law has been done away with, I only have one thing to say to you, Sh'ma Yisrael (Mark 12:28-34). For if is spoken of by the Christ that on these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets, we as Christians should understand what hangs on those 2 laws, hence as to what I stated before regarding the verse in Exodus and everything connected to it.

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Would this be before they made an attempt, and asked God for forgiveness (Repented) or is this at a point when a person commits suicide like Judas that made no attempts to reconcile his heinous crime of delivering Jesus to his enemies?

Either way, a crime against nature is something that most within Christendom view as wrong. There are circumstances to be sure, even the Watchtower acknowledges that through the Flock book.

    Hello guest!

cf: 2282

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.

Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to moral law.

From the Code of Canon Law and Commentary2

Regarding “Those to Whom Ecclesiastical Funeral Rites Are Denied”:

Canon 1184 –

§1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites:

1º notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics;

2º persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed

to the Christian faith;

3º other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful;

§2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed.

 

1 John 4:4 New Living Translation (NLT)

But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.

Romans 14:8 New International Version (NIV)

If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Ezekiel 18:4 New International Version (NIV)

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

 

Should those individuals that took matters into their own hands be given the opportunity to be resurrected? That belongs to God to decide, where the crime of sin would stand before God's authority to Judge that was taken away by a selfish act.

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While those unrighteous will undoubtedly be resurrected by no fault of never knowing God’s purpose and promise? It does not constitute those unrighteous ones after being cleansed and the devil allowed to poison the minds won’t receive a judgment of the second death where there is no resurrection.

However, those that have taken from God’s judgment excelled to the second death. Like those that commit blasphemy against gods holy spirit. Have these righteous and unrighteous paid their debt through death?

Deuteronomy 6 New International Version (NIV)

Love the Lord Your God

6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy a long life.

1 Peter 4:15 English Standard Version (ESV)

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV)

19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Therefore, no one has the right to take what God has created. In the case of suicide one's mortal soul.

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12 hours ago, FelixCA said:

While those unrighteous will undoubtedly be resurrected by no fault of never knowing God’s purpose and promise? It does not constitute those unrighteous ones after being cleansed and the devil allowed to poison the minds won’t receive a judgment of the second death where there is no resurrection.

However, those that have taken from God’s judgment excelled to the second death. Like those that commit blasphemy against gods holy spirit. Have these righteous and unrighteous paid their debt through death?

Deuteronomy 6 New International Version (NIV)

Love the Lord Your God

6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy a long life.

1 Peter 4:15 English Standard Version (ESV)

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV)

19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Therefore, no one has the right to take what God has created. In the case of suicide one's mortal soul.

Well I personally don't want to judge anyone as to the resurrection. That would be a wicked thing to do. 

I do know that there are scriptures that say it will be bad for anyone that has stumbled others. So if a person is stumbled by another, is it their own fault or the fault of the other person. Is the other person blood guilty ?

I have no interest in judging others in that way, as to them being worthy of God's mercy. 

I have hope in God that He will, or through Christ He will, show mercy to those whom have been stumbled by a misleading Organisation.

I honestly feel that most of the Greek scriptures are addressed to those of the Anointed, as more is expected of them. So I don't feel that God will deal so harshly with those of the Earthly class. 

I don't think the Judgement day will be anything like it has been pictured on W/t magazines . It will be more spiritual than physical In my opinion. 

 

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15 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well I personally don't want to judge anyone as to the resurrection. That would be a wicked thing to do. 

That’s extremely funny Butler. You don’t judge, lol! 😂

What do you think you are doing with the Watchtower GB? Don’t drink and drive. 😋

 

91cf8fa1f2a3b2d22afae70ea1b539c6--joey-ramone-felix-the-cats.jpg

 

 

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7 hours ago, FelixCA said:

That’s extremely funny Butler. You don’t judge, lol! 😂

What do you think you are doing with the Watchtower GB? Don’t drink and drive. 😋

 

91cf8fa1f2a3b2d22afae70ea1b539c6--joey-ramone-felix-the-cats.jpg

 

 

Typical out of context comment from you cat.

I said "Well I personally don't want to judge anyone as to the resurrection."

Of course we all judge people in everyday life. BUT I said AS TO THE RESURRECTION. 

But you are only a cartoon cat, i can't expect any better from you can I ? :) 

 

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Of course we all judge people in everyday life.

verb judge

to form, give, or have as an opinion, or to decide about something or someone, especially after thinking carefully

to express a bad opinion of someone's behaviour, often because you think you are better than them

to officially decide .....about someone or something

to express the reasons why you have a particular opinion

Perhaps we sometimes making too rashly, too much Conclusions about people and things around us. And we, of course, made errors in Conclusions. Judging sounds somehow as verdict, Final outcome, as like before Judge judging you for death sentence. Conclusions are also "dangerous", can be dangerous if we  making decisions based on current, uncertain knowledge.

 

 

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      7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11
      As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised.
      8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it?
      9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4
      A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming.
      10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6
      Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed?
      11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17
      Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature:
      a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44)
      b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven.
      They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body.
      Bible Teaching:
      a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual
      body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body.
      It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh.
      There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body.
      Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body.
      He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body.
      QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44.
      b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound
      humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom.
      c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53
      Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us.
      Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality),
      not taking away something from humanity (our material body)?
      Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37).
      For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      First off, Witnesses basically believe in an immortal soul, though they would be offended at that statement. They get around the issue by calling it "Jehovah's memory". An instance of this is in the Watchtower (w07 11/1 p. 26 par. 16) where it says:
      So, for example, let's say that some pioneer elder who has fifteen kids (that he's successfully raised in the 'Truth') dies tragically while doing business territory and helping an old lady cross the street. He's pretty much guaranteed a spot on the ole list, so he gets 'remembered' by Jehovah and his wife and kids.
      Time passes, Great Tribulation comes and goes, Armageddon happens with lots of screaming and pain and clergymen getting crushed by collapsing steeples. New System arrives. (Geez! Took long enough!) Now it's resurrection time.
      So Jehovah consults his list and sees our elder's name (we'll call him GA for 'Good Associate' and decides it's time to bring GA back.
      So what happens? Does Jehovah scrounge around for all of GA's molecules and put them together again? Nope, that part of him is gone (and potentially being used in other humans - Ewwww!!!). The Watchtower explains (w00 7/15 p. 16 par. 2):
      So Jehovah doesn't need to search for anything - that's great news! He can just sink a shovel in the dirt and get all he needs to build a hunky bod for GA. He gets to work and makes our buddy a body.
      So now God is standing there with a lifeless assembled corpse in front of him. What's next? Oh, right. We need crank this thing up and get it started. This is where it gets interesting, and complicated... and confusing... The Reasoning book (rs p. 333) says:
      So GA gets infused with his own personal identity. What is that? I don't know. No, seriously, I don't know. It's not his body, that's already been discussed. Is it his memories? No, because that's just GA's memories, that's not GA, you can download them into anyone or everyone. Is it his personality? That's not GA either, that's just wiring. What the heck is GA?!?
      To put this into perspective, let's put ourselves in GA's wife's shoes. Here is her resurrected hubby, young and hot, and just like she remembered (she's hot too btw). But how does she know it's him?  How does she know it's not just some conglomeration of molecules that was downloaded with GA's memories and wired to act like GA? She doesn't! And GA's no help either, because all he can remember is the good things about being GA. So neither of them know if GA is the real deal. They're both useless!
      And to really complicate things the Insight book (it-2 p. 786) says:
      Wait! What?!? Now, to be fair, this sentence is in a paragraph about those with the creepy heavenly calling. But it specifically says that the soul is different than the body - it's the person, apart from the body. In fact, it sounds a lot different than just being in Jehovah's memory. If I take GA's soul and put it back into some body (any body) - that's GA? Apparently, but don't ask me to explain, cuz' I don't get it. To me, it sounds like something survived when GA's body didn't, and when that got implanted in a new body it became new GA.
      This brings us back to Witnesses believe in an immortal soul. They really really want to believe that their dead loved ones will live again. But they also believe that there isn't anything that actually is the person, just memories in Jehovah's head. In that case, they can never be sure that their resurrected loved ones are who they used to be. This would terrify them if they ever took the time to think about it. But thankfully we can rest assured that Witnesses won't think about this and therefore we won't ever have to talk about GA ever again.
    • By The Librarian
      Antonio Timothy - The Resurrection Hope--Why That Hope Should Be Real to You.mp3
      Agape!
      @The Librarian
    • By DeeDee
      Can anyone explain this to me?: Rev. 20:5 -- “(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)…”?
       
      I thought that our loved ones will be resurrected DURING the 1,000 years…
      Does it maybe mean that they do not come to “everlasting life” until the 1,000 years are ended?
       
      Full Scripture for Reference: (Revelation 20:4, 5) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    • By DeeDee
      Can anyone explain this to me?...Rev. 20:5 --
      “(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)…”?
      I thought that our loved ones will be resurrected DURING the 1,000 years…
      Does it maybe mean that they do not come to “everlasting life” until the 1,000 years are ended?
       
      Full Scripture for Reference: (Revelation 20:4, 5) And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
    • Guest
      By Guest
      A Bosnian Croat war criminal has died after taking poison during the reading of his verdict at the International Criminal Court in the Hague, the AP reports, citing Croatian state television. Slobodan Praljak, 72, a former wartime leader, was seen drinking from a small container as he heard the verdict of his appeal hearing.
    • By Jack Ryan
      A 24 old Bethelite woman who was in the last two weeks caught in Brooklyn, NY. Bethel and interrogated for two days for gathering critical, secretive information on the Watchtower Organization and sharing it with a working network of renegade brother Bethelites inside the world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      The young JW sister was disfellowshipped and sent home. It was reported that when she arrived home she was treated terribly by her Jehovah's Witness family and relatives. Shunned and disgracefully mentally abused emotionally took it's toll on her and she committed suicide this week.
      A major "WITCH HUNT" is now underway inside Bethel for this elusive, rapidly growing group of doubting brother Bethelites who are now sharing covert information with Six Screens and other critical websites of the Watchtower.
      The news of the suicide according to Johnny is very painful to those who were close to her. Johnny was emotionally upset when he reported the suicide this morning.
       
    • By Bible Speaks
      SUICIDE IS NOT THE ANSWER
      ????
      Are you depressed?Are you lonely?          Are you suffering from a relationship break-up? Are you being bullied?               Are you suffering from a terminal illness?Do you feel like no one really understands your situation? You might be thinking:why not just end it all, after all no one will notice that I am gone. No one would miss me.I want to let you know that It is never too late for you,you are not too far gone,you are not too lost.You can still return to how you once were, to what you once was.Suicide is never the solution.Suicide is never the answer because:
      (1)THINGS CHANGES OVERTIME.
      Regardless of your situation, things do not stay the same. You may feel very bad today, but it wonÂ’t last forever. The only constant thing in life is change.
      (2) THERE ARE ALWAYS OTHER OPTIONS.
      Confront a problem, defend yourself, wait for it to blow over.Tell a teacher if you're being bullied. Tell your parents if you feel alone. Take action against it.
      (3) EMBRACE THE LOVE.
      There are people who love you- even if you don't see it. The world is not against you, even if it feels like it. You are loved. There are people in your life who love you. Maybe they are on the sidelines of your life where you don't often look, but you would see them there if you did. Or maybe you don't recognize the love they have for you. Maybe you're looking for friendly love and are dismissing someone giving you sisterly love. It can be easy to  miss sometimes, look around. Look intently. You are loved.
      (4)SEEK HELP
      You may feel lost and confused, but the answers to your specific problems are out there. The key is that you have to find the answers. The answers to your problem will not come to you. There are ways to get help. You just have to ask for it. Talk to a friend, a parent, a counselor, a doctor, a cousin. A person will not know what you are passing through if you don't say it. Above all pray to Jehovah...
      These scriptures can comfort you when you feel depressed and think that there is no way out from your situation.
      -Psalm 27:1
      -Deuteronomy 31:8
      -Psalm 23:4
      -Job 5:11
      -Lamentations 3:22-23
      -John 14:27
      -Psalm 46:1
      -2 Corinthians 1:3
      -psalm 119:76
      -John 16:33
      -Psalm 139:11-12
      -Isaiah 49:13
      -Matthew 5:4
      -Psalm 55:22
      -Romans 8:37-39
      Always remember that it is satan that makes a person to feel worthless. Keep fighting and DON'T GIVE UP. For more information on how to cope with depression visit this link.

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      This post can help save a life.pls share

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      A FORMER professional boxer was seen acting strangely moments before darting into the path of an oncoming lorry, an inquest heard.
      Dennis Harbon, 68, suffered head and chest injuries and died at the scene on the A58 Whitehall Road at Scholes on March 1 this year.
      Married Mr Harbon, a retired window cleaner who lived at Mayfield Place in Wyke, had a history of battling depression and his medication had recently been changed, the hearing was told.
      Witnesses described seeing him at the side of the road suddenly running and flailing his arms before jumping in front of the lorry.
      The inquest in Bradford yesterday heard the lorry driver swerved and braked but was left powerless to avoid hitting Mr Harbon.
      Shocked bystanders tried to help him, with one praying for him, until emergency services arrived.
      Mr Harbon, a JehovahÂ’s Witness, had been due to go to a bible teaching session that morning but had cancelled.
      His wife Amanda Harbon told Assistant Bradford Coroner Kirsty Gomersal her husband had been having good and bad days in the run up to his death but she had not thought it was bad enough for him to take his own life.
      Mr Harbon left three notes of apology at his home which led investigating officers to treat his death as a deliberate act, PC Luke Mitchell told the hearing.
      Summing up, Assistant Coroner Ms Gomersal said “much-loved” Mr Harbon had deliberately jumped in front of the lorry and concluded that his death was suicide.
      Mr Harbon boxed professionally from 1973 to 1975 at welterweight and light middle weight taking part in 14 bouts.

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    • By Brother Rando
      Many religions teach an array of traditions and customs from reincarnation to entering into another realm. Should we put our trust into traditions and customs?   “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)“ Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out,” (John 5:28)“And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:4)    Would you like to learn more? 
    • By Kurt
      Why did this crash survivor kill herself?
      ...two years after triple tragedy

      The crash that killed everyone, but spared Sewrhoni Mohan.
      SEWRHONI Mohan awoke early that morning and prepared a meal for her husband.
      As he packed the tools of his trade to head out to work just after daybreak, she told him that while he was gone she would meet her church colleagues to continue the ministry they had been doing in their community.
      When he left, she closed the doors and shut out the world.
      He came home to find her dead. She had placed a plastic bag over her head and suffocated herself to death.
      Why did she do it?
      Mohan had survived a car crash that killed everyone in the vehicle less than two years ago.
      But while her external injuries had healed, the emotional trauma may have left her with a condition known as “Survivor's Guilt”.
      And it probably led her to make the decision to take fate into her own hands.
      On May 18, the 38 year old woman lay on her martial bed and placed a plastic bag over her head and breathed her last.
      Forensic pathologist Dr Valery Alexandrov concluded that there were no signs of foul play involved in the death of Mohan, and that she died of acute oxygen deprivation due to obstruction of the upper airways by the plastic bags put over her face. 
      “There was not the slighted evidence of an altercation. Her clothing was in perfect order. She was wearing a delicate silk blouse which could have been easily torn, but it was not. Even her fingernails were in perfect condition. Nothing at all to suggest foul play”, Alexandrov had told the Express.
      Psychologist Dr Varma Deyalsingh said that Survivor's Guilt can develop when those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) seek to connect with those who died.
      “People ask why do they have Survivor's Guilt? It seems it's because it is preferable to blame ourselves for things outside of our control than to accept our situation for which we are completely helpless. Survivor's Guilt is also a way to express the connection with those who have died. It's a method of trying to keep them alive in your mind because of guilty feelings since you survived”.
      She was happy
      Mohan's husband, Davenand Rampersad told the Express that his wife was a happy woman, but she struggled emotionally after the car crash on November 25, 2015. 
      Mohan was a passenger in a car which collided head-on into a ten wheeler truck that day. 
      Taxi driver Anthony Marcano, 54, and passengers Felecia Ali, 41, and Sherwin Constantine, 54, died almost instantly.
      Rampersad said his wife remembered nothing of how the crash happened, only that she woke up in a hospital bed with her two legs broken, ribs cracked, bruises and lacerations.
      “The accident had a hold on her. She was not the same afterwards. She was depressed knowing that she too could have died. She was depressed because with her injuries she couldn't move for a while. She was very sad for those who died (in the crash), especially Mr Constantine since that was her friend from church. I believe she was sitting next to him in the taxi”, he said. “She said if she had died in the accident she would not have minded. But I used to tell her she shouldn't feel that way, that she should have been grateful that she was the only survivor”.
      Deyalsingh said that Mohan may have been experiencing emotional conflict.
      “If a close friend or family member died in that crash that is a factor that come into play. There are two conflicting emotions – feeling happy that you survived , and then guilty that the others did not. Once you have two conflicting emotions it is like a tug of war in your brain and that could lead to problems”, said Deyalsingh.
      Acute stress
      The psychologist said that such stress could lead to a disorder known as Acute Stress Disorder (ASD). “This is where the person would have nightmares and relive the event. Sometimes they are numb, sometimes they can't go near cars, or a certain area. After a month if the person is still having flashbacks then ASD is labelled Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)”, said Deyalsingh. “We find that people suffering from PTSD have a lot of intrusive thoughts where they relive the traumatic event over and over during the day. There may have been a pre-existing problem of depression, and when something else happens they feel overwhelmed”.
      Rampersad said while his wife's outward appearance was the same following the fatal crash, something has changed on the inside.
      Her smile which attracted him more than seven years before at a convention of Jehovah Witnesses at the Oval in Port of Spain had disappeared.
      The couple was married for five years, and according to Rampersad's mother, Radica Rampersad, “he took his time to get married”.
      Rampersad said after the crash, his wife was warded at hospital for three months, then stayed at her family's home at Aranguez.
      He would often make the journey from Chrysosthom Trace in Mayaro to Aranguez to be at her side.
      After a year and a half she moved back to their marital home.
      Rampersad said that the crash left his wife with a fear of “big trucks”, but he talked her all the way through on their way back to their home.
      But as time passed and he would find her crying, Rampersad knew his wife needed help.
      “If I see her crying and tried to talk to her she would push me away, said 'to leave her alone',” he said. “I asked her if she wanted to get professional help and she said 'no'. I asked her sister to talk to her about it. But it didn't happen. But we were doing counselling in church”.
      Deyalsingh advised that there are free psychological clinics at health centres, hospitals, private institutions that people can access across the country.
      He said that there is also the Community Mental Health and Wellness Clinics at Port of Spain and Barataria where people can seek help following traumatic events.

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    • By Bible Speaks
      THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION 
      The devil can not prevent the resurrection of those in Jehovah's memory. 
      16 "At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before himfor those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. (Mal 3:16)
      28 "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice"
      29 "and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 6:28,29)
      15 "And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."      (Acts 24:15)
       

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • By admin
      Wanna kill yourself? Imagine this. You come home from school one day. You’ve had yet another horrible day. You’re just ready to give up. So you go to your room, close the door, and take out that suicide note you’ve written and rewritten over and over and over You take out those razor blades, and cut for the very last time. You grab that bottle of pills and take them all. Laying down, holding the letter to your chest, you close your eyes for the very last time. A few hours later, your little brother knocks on your door to come tell you dinners ready. You don’t answer, so he walks in. All he sees is you laying on your bed, so he thinks you’re asleep. He tells your mom this. Your mom goes to your room to wake you up. She notices something is odd. She grabs the paper in your hand and reads it. Sobbing, she tries to wake you up. She’s screaming your name. Your brother, so confused, runs to go tell Dad that “Mommy is crying and sissy won’t wake up.” Your dad runs to your room. He looks at your mom, crying, holding the letter to her chest, sitting next to your lifeless body. It hits him, what’s going on, and he screams. He screams and throws something at the wall. And then, falling to his knees, he starts to cry. Your mom crawls over to him, and they sit there, holding each other, crying. The next day at school, there’s an announcement. The principal tells everyone about your suicide. It takes a few seconds for it to sink in, and once it does, everyone goes silent. Everyone blames themselves. Your teachers think they were too hard on you. Those mean popular girls, they think of all the things they’ve said to you. That boy that used to tease you and call you names, he can’t help but hate himself for never telling you how beautiful you really are. Your ex boyfriend, the one that you told everything to, that broke up with you.. He can’t handle it. He breaks down and starts crying, and runs out of the school. Your friends? They’re sobbing too, wondering how they could never see that anything was wrong, wishing they could have helped you before it was too late. And your best friend? She’s in shock. She can’t believe it. She knew what you were going through, but she never thought it would get that bad… Bad enough for you to end it. She can’t cry, she can’t feel anything. She stands up, walks out of the classroom, and just sinks to the floor. Shaking, screaming, but no tears coming out. It’s a few days later, at your funeral. The whole town came. Everyone knew you, that girl with the bright smile and bubbly personality. The one that was always there for them, the shoulder to cry on. Lots of people talk about all the good memories they had with you, there were a lot. Everyone’s crying, your little brother still doesn’t know you killed yourself, he’s too young. Your parents just said you died. It hurts him, a lot. You were his big sister, you were supposed to always be there for him. Your best friend, she stays strong through the entire service, but as soon as they start lowering your casket into the ground, she just loses it. She cries and cries and doesn’t stop for days. It’s two years later. Your teachers all quit their job. Those mean girls have eating disorders now. That boy that used to tease you cuts himself. Your ex boyfriend doesn’t know how to love anymore and just sleeps around with girls. Your friends all go into depression. Your best friend? She tried to kill herself. She didn’t succeed like you did, but she tried…your brother? He finally found out the truth about your death. He self harms, he cries at night, he does exactly what you did for years leading up to your suicide. Your parents? Their marriage fell apart. Your dad became a workaholic to distract himself from your death. Your mom got diagnosed with depression and just lays in bed all day. People care. You may not think so, but they do. Your choices don’t just effect you. They effect everyone. Don’t end your life, you have so much to live for. Things can’t get better if you give up. I’m here for absolutely anyone that needs to talk, no matter who you are. Even if we’ve NEVER talked before, I’m here for you. Let's see who actually read all of it.
      For anyone that feels this way ??
      Could 1 friend, please share? We are trying to demonstrate that someone's always listening.
      #SuicideAwareness 1-800-273-8255
    • By JayDubya
      When our brothers lose a loved one, we often say, 'at least we have the resurrection hope.'  This is true, however, the Bible refers to death as a 'sting'.   It hurts and it doesn't go away as quickly as a bee.   
      I lost two parents in 20 days- Two funerals in 30 days.  At least I have the resurrection hope.   

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      A man from Moldova, stabbed his 6-year-old son in the heart and then cut his veins. The incident happened on Sunday, on Tigrului street from Timișoara.
      The 48-year-old Bessarabian and his wife from Kyrgyzstan, moved to Timișoara a month ago. According to the police, the man locked himself in a room with the child, while his mother was in the bathroom, and stabbed him with a knife. The family was preparing to go to church, being follower of Jehovah's Witnesses.
      When the woman came out of the bathroom, she heard strange noises and had a mental breakdown when he discovered the crime but called 112.
      Opiniatimisoarei.ro informs that when the firefighters entered the room they found the child lying on the bed face up and with his hands on the chest, while his father was father lying in a pool of blood.
      The man was transported to the hospital in very serious condition, but he died because of the wounds caused.
      The neighbors say that the couple was polite, quiet and that they never even heard them arguing, and that the little boy was very tidy.
      The police have started an investigation to determine what was the reason that pushed the man to this extreme gesture. 

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    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      A husband and wife and their two young children were found dead in their home in Irmo, South Carolina on Wednesday after what homicide investigators  called and apparent murder-suicide. Police believe 28-year-old Kia Miller along with their 3-year-old son Kyler and daughter Syrai, who was barely a year old were executed with shots to the upper body by family patriarch and devout Jehovah's Witnesses Sheddrick Byron Miller before he turned the gun on himself. The hellish scene was uncovered after the man's mother, who had not heard from her son in several days, went to their home in the Riverwalk neighborhood around 10 a.m. to investigate. There she discovered the bodies and called police. A spokesman for the Richland County Sheriff's Department told the Charlotte Observer that the initial investigation points to a domestic disturbance prior to the killings. One woman who knew the family told the Associated Press that there was no indication anything was amiss and expressed shock at the tragedy. Authorities say a handgun, the presumed murder weapon was found in the master bedroom near Shedrick Miller's body. His wife, also in the room. The two children were shot dead in their respective bedrooms. Police are still trying to determine the exact time of the murder. South Carolina's homicide rate of women killed by men is the worst in the country, according to a report by the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

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    • By Jack Ryan
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    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      WASHINGTON — The death rate in the United States rose last year for the first time in a decade, preliminary federal data show, a rare increase that was driven in part by more people dying from drug overdoses, suicide and Alzheimer’s disease. The death rate from heart disease, long in decline, edged up slightly.
      Death rates — measured as the number of deaths per 100,000 people — have been declining for years, an effect of improvements in health, disease management and medical technology.
      While recent research has documented sharp rises in death rates among certain groups — in particular less educated whites, who have been hardest hit by the prescription drug epidemic — increases for the entire population are relatively rare.
      Federal researchers cautioned that it was too early to tell whether the rising mortality among whites had pushed up the overall national death rate. (Preliminary data is not broken down by race, and final data will not be out until later this year.) But they said the rise was real, and while it is premature to ring an alarm now, if it continues, it could be a signal of distress in the health of the nation.
      “It’s an uptick in mortality and that doesn’t usually happen, so it’s significant,” said Robert Anderson, the chief of mortality statistics at the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “But the question is, what does it mean? We really need more data to know. If we start looking at 2016 and we see another rise, we’ll be a lot more concerned.”
      The death rate rose to 729.5 deaths per 100,000 people in 2015, up from 723.2 in 2014, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. It was one of the few times in the past 25 years that the rate has increased. A bad flu season pushed it up in 2005, and AIDS and the flu contributed to a sharp increase in 1993. In 1999, there was a tiny increase.
      Experts said the current rise was surprising.
      “We are not accustomed to seeing death rates increase on a national scale,” said Andrew Fenelon, a researcher at the C.D.C. who did not work on the paper. “We’ve seen increases in mortality for some groups, but it is quite rare to see it for the whole population.”
      He added that it would drag the United States further behind its European peers: “Many countries in Europe are witnessing declines in mortality, so the gap between the U.S. and other countries is growing.”
      Others said the finding seemed to fit the broader pattern of rising mortality among working-class whites, a trend that has drawn significant attention recently. Last year, a paper by Anne Case and Angus Deaton documented rising death rates among middle-age white Americans, particularly those with no more than a high school education. Other research has found rising rates among younger whites.
      “This is probably heavily influenced by whites,” said Sam Harper, an epidemiologist at McGill University in Montreal. “It does sort of fit together.”
      Chronic diseases like cancer and heart disease take by far the most American lives, far more, for example, than suicide or homicide, so any change in such causes can have a big effect on the final numbers. Dr. Anderson pointed out that the death rate from heart disease, which had been declining for decades — and offsetting the rises in drug deaths, for example — flattened. That gives other causes of death more of an influence, Dr. Anderson said, as they are no longer being offset by declines from heart disease.
      The death rate from heart disease stood at 167.1 in 2015, up from 166.7 in 2014, though the rise was not statistically significant. It was the first time since 1993 that the rate did not decline, Dr. Anderson said.
      The death rate from suicides rose to 13.1 in the third quarter of 2015, from 12.7 in the same quarter of 2014. (The last quarter of 2015 data was not yet available for suicides.)
      The same was true for drug overdoses, whose data the report had for only the first two quarters of 2015. The death rate for overdoses rose to 15.2 in the second quarter of 2015, compared with 14.1 in the same quarter of 2014. The rate for so-called unintentional injuries, which include drug overdoses and car accidents, rose to 42 in the third quarter of 2015, up from 39.9 in the same quarter of 2014.
      The rate for Alzheimer’s disease was also up, rising to 29.2 in 2015, compared with 25.4 in 2014, the continuation of some years of increases. Dr. Anderson said that part of the rise was more precise reporting of Alzheimer’s on death certificates, but that overalldementia-related deaths had increased over time.
      Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/health/american-death-rate-rises-for-first-time-in-a-decade.html


    • By Jesus.defender
      CHRIST’S BODILY RESURRECTION ‘I have power to take it again’Jn 10:18
      Watchtower Teaching: ‘Jesus was raised to life as an invisible spirit. He did not take up again that body in which he had been killed . . .’ ‘Let your Name be sanctified.’ (p.266).
      The Watchtower teaches that Jesus’ body was disposed of by God.
      The NWT mistranslates I Peter 3:18 as ‘being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’ to teach merely a spiritual resurrection of Christ.
      Bible Teaching: I Peter 3:18 refers to when Christ died. His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison (v. 19,20). After three days, Christ’s physical body was raised.
      I Peter 3:18 (KJV) correctly reads: ‘being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.’
      Which Scriptures best teach Christ’s bodily resurrection?
      1. ‘They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.’ (v.37) He said unto them, ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.’ (Luke 24:37, 39)
      Notice that the resurrected Christ says here that:
      (1) He is not a spirit;
      (2) His resurrection body has flesh and bones;
      (3) His physical hands and feet are proof of His physical resurrection;
      Jesus is trying to convince them that He, ‘I myself’ has a permanent physical body which still had the nail scars in His hands and feet. This is opposite to the WT teaching that Christ’s body was disposed of and that He became only a spirit. If the WT claim was correct, then
      Jesus would be deceiving the disciples here in showing them His body.
      2. ‘Then saith he to Thomas, . . . reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.’ (John 20:27)
      Here Jesus says that He has a physical side that He challenges Thomas to touch.
      3. ‘Neither did his flesh see corruption.’ - Acts 2:30,31
      Notice the following:
      a) God promised David that ‘according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ’ to sit on his throne.’ (v.30). This is a bodily resurrection of Christ, not spiritual. The NWT omits this because of its corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text. Well over 38 manuscripts have it.
      b) ‘neither did his flesh see corruption’ (v.31) means that Christ’s body did not decay.
      Why? Because Jesus was raised from the dead in a material, fleshly body.
      4. ‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21
      ‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21)
      Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days.
      Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection.
      5. Christ promises to eat of the fruit of the vine in the Kingdom. Only a body can eat.
      ‘I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come.’(Luke 22:18)
      Jesus here showed that his resurrected body would be able to eat and drink even in the Kingdom of God. Notice that a non-material spirit cannot eat and drink. Jesus promised the disciples in Luke 22:30 ‘that ye may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom.’
      Question: If Jesus expected to become an immaterial spirit, why would He promise the disciples that they would eat and drink with Christ at His table in His Kingdom?
      6. Christ ate a broiled fish and a honeycomb in front of them. Luke 24:41,42.
      7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11
      As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised.
      8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it?
      9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4
      A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming.
      10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6
      Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed?
      11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17
      Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature:
      a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44)
      b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven.
      They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body.
      Bible Teaching:
      a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual
      body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body.
      It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh.
      There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body.
      Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body.
      He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body.
      QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44.
      b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound
      humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom.
      c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53
      Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us.
      Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality),
      not taking away something from humanity (our material body)?
      Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37).
      For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.
       
    • By io.porog
      Who will call the dead to life? Who is doing the calling in these scriptures?
      Because my friend thinks Jesus is the one who will do the calling, but thought it was God going by Job and John here:
      Job 14: 13 O that in the Grave you would conceal me,
      That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
      That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!
      14 If a man dies, can he live again?
      I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
      Until my relief comes.
      15 You will call, and I will answer you.
      You will long for the work of your hands.
       
      John 5: 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 
       
      It would seem that Jehovah does the calling. But please let me know if I have this wrong and please provide references. Thanks.
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