Will people who have committed suicide get a resurrection?

[Shiwiii]

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

 

you are correct, to a point. 

The law was not abolished, it serves as a measuring stick to show us exactly where we fall short. We are not stoned to death any longer for serious sins, but it does not diminish the fact that serious sins are committed. 

Matthew 5:17&18  "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

37 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you are correct, to a point. 

The law was not abolished, it serves as a measuring stick to show us exactly where we fall short. We are not stoned to death any longer for serious sins, but it does not diminish the fact that serious sins are committed. 

Matthew 5:17&18  "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

 

¹⁷  “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.z ¹⁸  Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.

Different translation. This is the, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The JW Bible.

But Jesus did fulfil the Law. It was 'accomplished' or it 'took place'. 

It was there to show the Jews how sinful they were, and to prepare the way for Christ.  

It was never there to judge anyone other than the Nation of Israel. 

If a person lives under Law they do not live by Faith in God's mercy, for the law was a curse. Galatians 3 v 10 & 13

¹⁰  All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.”

¹³  Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”

[Shiwiii]

we are getting off on a whole different topic. 

[Space Merchant]

On 10/2/2018 at 4:11 PM, Shiwiii said:

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

Kris also went on to say the following,

After resurrection all persons righteous and unrighteousness in their previous existence will be able to fully align themselves with Gods will if they choose to. Naturally those who previously had aligned themselves to the extent possible in their imperfect past life will find it easier to conform to Gods plan during the 1000 year judgment day.

He adds quote regarding Judgment Day

And his final remark is the following: So yes all persons resurrected will have a clean slate, as it were, with God. Their eternal salvation is based on how they are judged during the 1000 year judgement day and their successfully withstanding the final testing period when Satan is released for a short time at the end if judgment day.

A Top answer on CSE is the full comment itself, never is the comment portioned because those in both the Christian and Hermeticism CSE space will ask you for detail, examples being if you give a response, be it question or answer about, for instance, is God Male, a simple “yes” will not cut it in this community, so you have to prove what that yes is with biblical interpretation.

That being said, their view isn’t complex nor some convoluted teaching, in addition, it does not dip itself into the belief of the immortal soul doctrine or instant judgment upon death doctrines. Both the good and bad will be resurrected; this includes those of Christ and those who are not of Christ, that is, as well as those who do not even know anything that is in the Scriptures, let alone the ability to read, those who have already died. Those who will be resurrected, the good will not have to face judgment compared to those who bad, and those who are bad will be judged a time that is coming, by means of what we read in the references found in Revelations. Among those in Hades, even the ones who commit suicide will be brought back, some will be met with mercy, others with judgment when everything has been concluded, for like I said, when it comes to suicide, the situation tends to be different.

For those who die, they are unable to commit any acts of sin, for a dead person cannot speak, move (they can explode - literally) or do such as a person who is alive [has life] can do. In the eyes of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they see this also, those in death will have, as Kris stated, a clean slate, for such goes for all imperfect ones, and that clean slate as he mentioned, goes into the belief of those who are aware of the 1,000 year reign/rule of Christ, otherwise known as The Millennial Kingdom, during this time judgment is still in motion, in effect, especially to those who, with a clean slate, are out and about, living for they are no longer dead, but having life – that is, a gift from God, as mentioned in the verse, for it is what will take place afterwards everything is accomplished according to God's purpose, will and order, and Satan the Devil and Deceiver will be destroyed at this point via Everlasting Destruction from the [face of the] Lord, as mentioned in the Bible, as for those with him – those, who are alive, who chooses to go against God and his Christ.

On 10/2/2018 at 4:11 PM, Shiwiii said:

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

Kris did confirm this, but clearly he had more to say, at CSE, you take into account the full response, not part of it or a snippet, for his point to claim was regarding sinners and Judgment. Looking into Kris’ comments and it is understandable of where the position is, as is with others who share this belief, even some scholars’ stand on this specific notion when Judgment and The Millennial Kingdom is in connection to this.

On 10/2/2018 at 4:11 PM, Shiwiii said:

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

Was assuming you were referring to verse 23 at first, only reason I brought up the other verse, however, the context for both verses, although similar, differ also. Like I said before a dead man cannot do anything, he cannot sin and or commit sin for in death there is no life, only those who are living and roam the earth can do things, even sin themselves, for today, be it if they follow the teachings of the Christ and follow his God, and or not. Furthermore, Romans 6:7, in connection to verse 23, as much more to say when you put everything together.

The Commandments are still at play here, granted that the principles from the Commandments alone are still in application to Christians, something of which I was very pressing about months ago when dealing with Trinitarian on this forum, and the fact that I provided references of Exodus 20:13 earlier, for the principle of killing someone and or oneself, for committing murder and or killing someone.

On 10/2/2018 at 5:56 PM, Shiwiii said:

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

I do not see how the interpretation held by Christians is destroyed, for last I checked people like Augustine was not a JW and yet his views are clearly seen regarding death/murder/suicide, as with others in fact, we even have Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer.

A problematic interpretation would be the very fact that the immortal soul, instant judgment, hellfire torment, and more related doctrines is included regarding these 2 verses or the ignoring of those who never knew anything regarding the Scriptures, who are also born sinners, but never got the chance to received amnesty with God, so to speak, moreover, as with those with a total disregard for the references, such as Genesis 3:19, something of which is being taught and professed by several, while on the other side of the spectrum, there are those who do not.

For sin has power over a man who is imperfect. But when a man dies, sin has no hold or ability to dominate the man for him who is dead cannot do anymore sin, but the coming judgment and everything that is concluded, this man, if he does bad, will be judged, I say this because then you have to take into account people who do not have an idea what the Bible is or show clearly oblivious to who the Christ is.

[Space Merchant]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:02 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc

To some extent what is of the Law is still in application in terms of principle, for instance, we are to serve and honor God, as it says in the Law in the Hebrew Old Testament, such is still in application in the Greek New Testament, to the churches to the people, to us even in the present day, for we do in fact do what is needed to adhere to the teachings and to serve God, for the Laws of of are of God’s thinking, something we should not be ignoring.

The Israelites were of Natural Israel and the mediator at the time was Moses, while Jesus mediated for the new one, of Spiritual Israel.

We no longer need to do animal sacrifices because Jesus’ death is what validates and or overwritten this, although Christians do not need to do such, some tend to accept Jesus’ sacrifice, but continue to do animal sacrifices, examples would be, Christians of Mount Gerizim, also known as, Modern Day Samaritans, this also goes for the Sabbath, although no longer required, some do it still.

The Old Law was written by stone, but the New Covenant itself was, in this sense, written in our hearts, to which like that of the old, for the new we follow.

For what has overwritten the old Sinaic Law took immediate affect when Jesus expired. Jesus spoke of this Covenant with his disciples, 11 of them and made promise to them, and extends such when such ones are begot by the spirit, furthermore the mass inauguration at Pentecost where the spirit, the promise from God, had been outpoured to the people.

Christians can and will still be judged, mainly for those who allow themselves to do what is bad, even when receiving guidance and or criticism from such ones like Paul and onward.

For when it comes to the Christian faith, you are to focus on and maintain on what is true, otherwise you will be caused to stumble, fall even and the next action will be on your part: whether to remain on the ground, or the other option, to stand back up, headstrong and continue to walk on the path that is correct.

The Law, the Commandments, as said before, is of God’s thinking, of which we can observe by means of study. The commandments themselves are of principles that are still in application and such is not irrelevant. Many of these principles are scattered throughout the Greek New Testament.

Granted the subject matter is of murder/suicide, what I have brought up in a response to Shiwiii was Exodus 20:13 regarding the thou shall not kill [murder] that stems from the Law, for when you seek the references, such as 1 John 3:15 among several (already mentioned), this is still in application despite Spiritual Israel’s Laws overwriting Natural Israel’s Laws.

Another example would be to not commit adultery Hebrews 13:4, as with several other verses, to which it stems from Exodus 20:14, with the one about murder/killing is right above this one in the previous verse in the Old Testament.

On 10/2/2018 at 5:09 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

Suicide to the majority is painful and it is frightening for some, granted such ones in a state of depression and fear and or other before taking his or her own life, I know the impact for the experience is still haunting to me, for the it not was not the suicide that hurts the person more, it is what led up to it, for some people, they tend to blame God for this, forgetting this verse: James 1:13.

For it breaks not just the person who is victim before ceasing to live, it breaks those of whom the person has relationships with and or interaction, examples like a friend, a brother/sister, uncle/aunt, etc, the same effect as to ones who are murdered or is the murderer, only this time a larger pool of people included from both sides. For if you actually dealt with people who are in a state, show signs of suicide it is there, at times, they’re subtle with it to the point such isn’t revealed to both family and friends before it is too late – for it is more than just to simply say life is not good, one cannot be simple minded when it comes to things such as these.

Unfortunately, Mr. Butler, death is a state of sleep(Luke 8:52 (Matthew 9:23-26, Mark 5:38-43, John 11:11, Acts 7:60, Acts 13:36)), yes, and such ones will be awaken, and for such ones there will be those who will receive God’s mercy and those who will be judged when everything comes to a conclusion. Suicide itself is a sin, however it is not an unforgivable sin as some make it out to be, mainly to those who hold to the doctrine of living after death or something in some shape and or form, knowing they themselves that humans are not spirits.

As for what you said regarding Baptism and Paul, The context regarding Baptism can be traced back to the origin of the Baptism, and or if you, using a literal map seeing Israel from a bird’s eye view, if you know the history, it would be very clear.

On 10/3/2018 at 12:58 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Different translation.

As long as the Strong's and the manuscripts line up, what is spoken of is correct, it is only a problem and or a biblical violation if the Strong's/Manuscript do not line put, for the last time I've educated on you this simple fact, with context, you didn't like the truth.

That being said, as with what @Shiwiii have stated, such is going off topic, and yet a response has to be made.

AS for thinking some of the Law has been done away with, I only have one thing to say to you, Sh'ma Yisrael (Mark 12:28-34). For if is spoken of by the Christ that on these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets, we as Christians should understand what hangs on those 2 laws, hence as to what I stated before regarding the verse in Exodus and everything connected to it.

[Jack Ryan]

So the answer is MAYBE... unless the Watchtower elders are able to disfellowship them first for attempted suicide. Because "what is sealed on earth, will be sealed in heaven"...  for more on JW's and ATTEMPTED SUICIDE:

 

[FelixCA]

Would this be before they made an attempt, and asked God for forgiveness (Repented) or is this at a point when a person commits suicide like Judas that made no attempts to reconcile his heinous crime of delivering Jesus to his enemies?

Either way, a crime against nature is something that most within Christendom view as wrong. There are circumstances to be sure, even the Watchtower acknowledges that through the Flock book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_suicide

cf: 2282

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.

Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to moral law.

From the Code of Canon Law and Commentary2

Regarding “Those to Whom Ecclesiastical Funeral Rites Are Denied”:

Canon 1184 –

§1. Unless they have given some signs of repentance before their death, the following are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funeral rites:

1º notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics;

2º persons who had chosen the cremation of their own bodies for reasons opposed

to the Christian faith;

3º other manifest sinners for whom ecclesiastical funeral rites cannot be granted without public scandal to the faithful;

§2. If some doubt should arise, the local ordinary is to be consulted; and his judgment is to be followed.

 

1 John 4:4 New Living Translation (NLT)

⁴ But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.

Romans 14:8 New International Version (NIV)

⁸ If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Ezekiel 18:4 New International Version (NIV)

⁴ For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

 

Should those individuals that took matters into their own hands be given the opportunity to be resurrected? That belongs to God to decide, where the crime of sin would stand before God's authority to Judge that was taken away by a selfish act.

[JOHN BUTLER]

We have hope in that there will be ' a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous'. 

When a person is dead they have paid for all their sins. 

 

[FelixCA]

While those unrighteous will undoubtedly be resurrected by no fault of never knowing God’s purpose and promise? It does not constitute those unrighteous ones after being cleansed and the devil allowed to poison the minds won’t receive a judgment of the second death where there is no resurrection.

However, those that have taken from God’s judgment excelled to the second death. Like those that commit blasphemy against gods holy spirit. Have these righteous and unrighteous paid their debt through death?

Deuteronomy 6 New International Version (NIV)

Love the Lord Your God

6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, ² so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy a long life.

1 Peter 4:15 English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁵ But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁹ Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, ²⁰ for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Therefore, no one has the right to take what God has created. In the case of suicide one's mortal soul.

[JOHN BUTLER]

12 hours ago, FelixCA said:

While those unrighteous will undoubtedly be resurrected by no fault of never knowing God’s purpose and promise? It does not constitute those unrighteous ones after being cleansed and the devil allowed to poison the minds won’t receive a judgment of the second death where there is no resurrection.

However, those that have taken from God’s judgment excelled to the second death. Like those that commit blasphemy against gods holy spirit. Have these righteous and unrighteous paid their debt through death?

Deuteronomy 6 New International Version (NIV)

Love the Lord Your God

6 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, ² so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy a long life.

1 Peter 4:15 English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁵ But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 English Standard Version (ESV)

¹⁹ Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, ²⁰ for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Therefore, no one has the right to take what God has created. In the case of suicide one's mortal soul.

Well I personally don't want to judge anyone as to the resurrection. That would be a wicked thing to do. 

I do know that there are scriptures that say it will be bad for anyone that has stumbled others. So if a person is stumbled by another, is it their own fault or the fault of the other person. Is the other person blood guilty ?

I have no interest in judging others in that way, as to them being worthy of God's mercy. 

I have hope in God that He will, or through Christ He will, show mercy to those whom have been stumbled by a misleading Organisation.

I honestly feel that most of the Greek scriptures are addressed to those of the Anointed, as more is expected of them. So I don't feel that God will deal so harshly with those of the Earthly class. 

I don't think the Judgement day will be anything like it has been pictured on W/t magazines . It will be more spiritual than physical In my opinion. 

 

[FelixCA]

15 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well I personally don't want to judge anyone as to the resurrection. That would be a wicked thing to do. 

That’s extremely funny Butler. You don’t judge, lol! 😂

What do you think you are doing with the Watchtower GB? Don’t drink and drive. 😋

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

7 hours ago, FelixCA said:

That’s extremely funny Butler. You don’t judge, lol! 😂

What do you think you are doing with the Watchtower GB? Don’t drink and drive. 😋

 

 

 

Typical out of context comment from you cat.

I said "Well I personally don't want to judge anyone as to the resurrection."

Of course we all judge people in everyday life. BUT I said AS TO THE RESURRECTION. 

But you are only a cartoon cat, i can't expect any better from you can I ?