Is the brochure "Return to Jehovah" missing something?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I do not see that in this scripture

I read the scriptures in Greek, not in English. The wording used involves the handling of judicial matters just as it would be expected of someone that "leads" and is "watchful" so as to protect the purity of the congregation.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Return to whom?

To the congregation! If you want to be part of the christian congregation you must adhere to the biblical high standards. If you don't there is no difference between the true and the false religion that "accepts" everyone no matter what. Everybody is welcome. Not everything is welcome (acts, attitudes etc).

[HollyW]

4 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

Meet with her to find out, if she wants to tell and talk about it is a sign of interest for her spiritual well being. What she had been doing is personal and to be honest if she doesn't tell or if she lies no one (human) will ever know.

Did you read this brochure in Greek?!

Martha has admitted what she did during those 40 years of being an inactive JW.  How else did the WTS get her story.  The implication in the brochure is that she was welcomed back with open arms.

Again,  Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

[Witness]

16 hours ago, Anna said:

When I was a young teenager I would worry in case I sinned against the holy spirit, which is unpardonable. How would one know? As I got more knowledge and experience in the truth I realized that those who commit the unpardonable sin do NOT ever want to repent or come back. So even if someone sins greatly, (even joining false religion for a time) and they seek forgiveness and repentance, that in itself is a sign they have not committed the unforgivable sin. Quite logical really.

Come back to what, Anna?  And who’s forgiveness do we seek? Is it the organization and under man's decision of acceptability and worthiness?  Or do the scriptures say we repent and come back to God and Christ?  God isn't the organization, is he?

Isa 46:5 - “To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike?”

John the Baptist told the Jewish people, to repent of their wrongdoings, never leading them to an organization, but preparing them for Christ.  Jesus' message was to his own people, to repent.  They did this by recognizing who he was and his salvation for all of us.  Matt 4:17

Should we equate salvation with what man has built, or should we respectfully give credit of salvation to Christ and the Father?

1 Cor 7:23 - "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."

We become "slaves of men" when putting our salvation in their hands, as if they are the ones who read our hearts.

Jer 17:10 -  "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

 

Ps 139: 23-24 - "Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting."

Rom 8:27 - "Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The Catholic Church uses a false priest and confessional, becoming mediator between man and Christ.  The Watchtower uses false priests, called a judicial committee, and the back room, becoming mediator between man and Christ.

 

[Shiwiii]

11 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

I read the scriptures in Greek, not in English. The wording used involves the handling of judicial matters just as it would be expected of someone that "leads" and is "watchful" so as to protect the purity of the congregation.

Fair enough, as the word used is hēgeomai, but is that with the implication of administering punishment? While you may hand that sort of application over to these men, I do not see it that way. Is there an instance when we should accept correction from those taking lead? Sure, but to what extent? To rule and reign over my conscience and my relationship with God? Never. My relationship does not depend on the ideas or "rules" of men. Just like many other religions of the world who impose punishment over their followers above and beyond what is written, the Bible tells us that is wrong. Going beyond what is written is forbidden. There is a big difference between being encouraged by council and imposing punishment for breaking "their rules". A perfect example is that of military or police service for a member of the WT. If you were to choose that course for your life,  Would you not be punished, or rather shunned because you are going against the "rules" established by the WT? Of course you would be. But did anyone in the Bible tell a Roman soldier he must quit being a soldier if he is to become a believer? 

 

11 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

To the congregation! If you want to be part of the christian congregation you must adhere to the biblical high standards. If you don't there is no difference between the true and the false religion that "accepts" everyone no matter what. Everybody is welcome. Not everything is welcome (acts, attitudes etc).

Your first statement I agree with to an extent , but can anyone adhere to these principles fully?  Hardly. So that makes each one of us sinners, not able to live up to the law. Hence the reason why Jesus came and died for our sins. Ephesians 1 tells us that we are made holy and blameless by the blood of Jesus and yet we are still sinners. We are only clean by means of Jesus and our belief in Him. 

To clarify my point, we are in a relationship with Jesus and it is this relationship that sets us apart, as a congregation. There is no man who can tell me I am not a part of the congregation in which Jesus followers are in, regardless of my sin. This is because my heart belongs to Jesus, and fail I will, I still strive to seek after Him. 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The Catholic Church uses a false priest and confessional, becoming mediator between man and Christ.  The Watchtower uses false priests, called a judicial committee, and the back room, becoming mediator between man and Christ.

great point! 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

great point! 

It's so good to see you back here, Shiwii.  

Actually, Christ is removed from the picture as the mediator between God and Jehovah's Witnesses.  Speaking the name of Jesus means nothing, when one answers to man.

[Shiwiii]

21 minutes ago, Witness said:

It's so good to see you back here, Shiwii.  

Actually, Christ is removed from the picture as the mediator between God and Jehovah's Witnesses.  Speaking the name of Jesus means nothing, when one answers to man.

Thank you, I've had a few more things on my plate than one would wish. 

I noticed that, it seems that the governing body has inserted themselves in place of Jesus. They, the gb, have taken it upon themselves to provide salvation. That is the exact example you gave with the parallels with Catholic's and their priests. It extends not only from the elders to the regular JW's but the gb is the same to the elders. It is the same hierarchy structure. 

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Come back to what, Anna?  And who’s forgiveness do we seek? Is it the organization and under man's decision of acceptability and worthiness?  Or do the scriptures say we repent and come back to God and Christ?  God isn't the organization, is he?

Isa 46:5 - “To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike?”

John the Baptist told the Jewish people, to repent of their wrongdoings, never leading them to an organization, but preparing them for Christ.  Jesus' message was to his own people, to repent.  They did this by recognizing who he was and his salvation for all of us.  Matt 4:17

Should we equate salvation with what man has built, or should we respectfully give credit of salvation to Christ and the Father?

1 Cor 7:23 - "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."

We become "slaves of men" when putting our salvation in their hands, as if they are the ones who read our hearts.

Jer 17:10 -  "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

 

Ps 139: 23-24 - "Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting."

Rom 8:27 - "Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The Catholic Church uses a false priest and confessional, becoming mediator between man and Christ.  The Watchtower uses false priests, called a judicial committee, and the back room, becoming mediator between man and Christ.

 

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ. However, that statement in itself is very ambiguous and means different things to different people. We want to make sure we have God's and Christs understanding on what it means to "come" to them.

I see to you, organization is a dirty word. However, God is a God of order and there can be no order unless there is organization, especially as regards the enormous task of "preaching in all the inhabited earth", which his followers would be doing. Also, there could be no doctrinal unity without organization. There is only one truth.

No one has ever suggested that the judicial committee is any kind of mediation between man and Christ. The sole purpose of a judicial committee is to ascertain, on available evidence, whether a person can continue to be called one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Christian congregation (on a larger scale the organization) must be kept morally and spiritually clean, otherwise it would lose God's approval as being his representatives and ambassadors. It has happened, on very rare occasions, that someone has been wrongfully disfellowshipped. If that was the case, then this would have no baring on how God and Christ view them. Conversely, if they have been rightfully disfellowshipped, then it is still ultimately up to Jehovah and Christ how they view them, their view is what ultimately counts and not the brothers view. Jehovah reads the heart and he knows the full situation.

As regards coming back to an organization, well that is logical, that is where your spiritual brothers and sisters are, people of like mind and belief. It is not God's purpose to have randomly scattered people who have "come" to him and Christ but who do not associate with others who have done the same. - “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’” (Zechariah 8:23)

"In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream.  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem........." (Isaiah 2: 2 - onward)

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ.

That is not what The Praeceptor said, do you believe that The Praeceptor not a witness? 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

However, God is a God of order and there can be no order unless there is organization, especially as regards the enormous task of "preaching in all the inhabited earth", which his followers would be doing. Also, there could be no doctrinal unity without organization.

I believe this is limiting God. Does God need anything from us to do His will? Your statement makes the argument that there is.

 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

It is not God's purpose to have randomly scattered people who have "come" to him and Christ but who do not associate with others who have done the same

Then why did Jesus command the disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations..." All the nations could not associate with one another and they would still certainly be scattered. 

[Anna]

27 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

That is not what The Praeceptor said, do you believe that The Praeceptor not a witness? 

My other sentence clarified my statement: " We want to make sure we have God's and Christ's understanding on what it means to "come" to them".