Is the brochure "Return to Jehovah" missing something?

[HollyW]

6 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

 

On 9/23/2016 at 3:47 AM, HollyW said:

Again,  Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

I have already answered...

 

You responded, you didn't answer.

[Witness]

On 9/23/2016 at 2:59 PM, AllenSmith said:

Witness: Isa 46:5 - “To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike?”John the Baptist told the Jewish people, to repent of their wrongdoings, never leading them to an organization, but preparing them for Christ.  Jesus' message was to his own people, to repent.  They did this by recognizing who he was and his salvation for all of us.  Matt 4:17

So your position is then, John the baptist immersed what? Ghost. What an embarrassing answer.How about Christ, was he delusional speaking to himself. That the implication?

Could you please provide scriptures that show Christ was leading people to an earthly organization?  Or was he establishing the Body of Christ, a spiritual “administration” of firstfruits and providing further life to all children of God in the Kingdom? 2 Cor 9:12; Rom 8:23,19

 

You said, “By the way “witness” Isa 46:5 is referring to either worship the true God or the false Gods like BAAL. You’re not even trying to understand scripture anymore. If we are to worship the true God? Then let us be, reflective of Gods image as his children.”

Let’s look at Isa 46. 

Isa 46:3 - “Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel.”

This refers to the anointed ones, including your GB.  Rom 11:26; 9:6,8; Heb 10:16

“To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal
And compare Me, that we should be alike?
 They lavish gold out of the bag,
And weigh silver on the scales;
They hire a goldsmith, and he makes it a god;
They prostrate themselves, yes, they worship.
 They bear it on the shoulder, they carry it
And set it in its place, and it stands;
From its place it shall not move.
Though one cries out to it, yet it cannot answer
Nor save him out of his trouble. Isa 46:5-7

Our spiritual heritage can also infuse in us a deep sense of spiritual security that can be enjoyed only within Jehovah’s organization.  05/2/15/p. 17-22 (1 Thess 5:3)

“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me Isa 46:8,9

I’ll borrow a quote from Shiwii’s post, which baffles me why you would think any of these quotes are manipulated or misrepresented, when taken straight from the source.

"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sep 15 p.22

“The Lord lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let God be exalted, The Rock of my salvation! 2 Sam 22:47

Although God has clearly stated that no one could build a house for him, that heaven is his throne and earth his footstool, the Watchtower has stuffed God into man’s enterprise, assured He has chosen it to represent HIS salvation. Acts 7:49 If so, why did Christ come to the earth? 

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:12

Do you believe I have manipulated this scripture as Samuel Herd slaughtered 1 Cor 6:19,20 to fit his agenda targeting slaving for the organization? How would you interpret it?

“Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.”

“Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted,
Who are far from righteousness:
 I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off;
My salvation shall not linger.
And I will place salvation in Zion,
For Israel My glory.” Isa 46:10-13

I take it you believe this “Zion” to be the organization, the source of salvation. If so, please provide scriptural proof that it is and earthly organization.

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels”  Heb 12:22 (Rev 14:1)

 YHWH's Genuine Mountain - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html

 

 

 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, HollyW said:

You responded, you didn't answer

You simply didn't like the answer. Read my previous post again please. All of it.

[HollyW]

7 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

You simply didn't like the answer. Read my previous post again please. All of it.

None of your previous posts answer what I've asked.  You only think you answered the question, you didn't.  A response is not an answer, it's merely a response, and while I thank you for your responses, for our discussion to continue, I'd rather you just answered the question.

[Witness]

On 9/22/2016 at 11:13 AM, ThePraeceptor said:

Hebrews 13:17 says:

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

Hello Praeceptor,

This phrase, “to take the lead”, has allowed men, elders, to judge another.   Is this the intention?  As Shiwii said, the word, hēgeomai, is used in many different formats in the scriptures, which gives us a well-rounded view if one takes the time to study it.  I noticed you said you read the Greek, then you know one terminology is “to go before”; we have Jesus as the best example of this.  He set the path for our feet, showing us the way to life.  The apostles did the same, exhorting, “esteeming” (one use – Heb 11:26), “accounting” (2 Pet 3:15) for those who listened to their words.  In the book of Hebrews alone, this word, hēgeomai, is used six times in various forms. 

In translation, the WT Greek Interlinear does not say, “over you”, but “among you”.  There’s a difference, do you see?  This implies working together, not a ruling over one.

The further scriptures you are referring to are in reference to the Chosen anointed ones, who have no voice in the organization.  You are speaking of men appointed by men, who are concerned with earthly organizational matters.  Jesus was concerned with the spreading of "good fruit" and chose those who would represent words of Truth. “Disfellowshipping” was never a term used by the apostles, it is a word and decree of men. 

The struggle men have in their determination of the righteous heart of another, by following documented organizational policy, is not based on Jesus’ direction.  Because of this need for an outlined set of rules, it is obvious Holy Spirit does not back their decision making in “taking the lead”.  God’s laws are “written on the heart” of one faithful chosen/anointed by Christ.  2 Cor 3;3; Rom 2:15; Heb 10:16  Would not God’s laws be sufficient enough to help another in faith, those very laws that Christ fulfilled and based on love?

The elder body certainly “takes” the lead and “rules over” the congregation, because they cannot comprehend Christ’s way, which is through love.  Would they struggle to assess a situation using a rule book if Holy spirit guided them?  The determination to set up man's arrangement has led to much suffering through use of organizational policy, a rejection of Christ's own Body.

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day." (John12:48)

Everyone has one advocate, Jesus Christ.

“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.  He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1,2

Greek word for “advocate” -   paráklētos, par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler:—advocate, comforter. “one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate”

 “Judge not, that you be not judged.  For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”  Matt 7:1

 

Should men assume this role before God?  Consoling and disciplining in love is one thing, judging one by marking them as “spiritually dead” is another, which is the foundation of disfellowshipping and shunning. 

 

 

[Witness]

On 9/15/2016 at 6:58 AM, HollyW said:

Has something been left out of the brochure....something like 'yes, you'll be welcomed back with open arms....as soon as the elders say you can be, but until then you'll be shunned for your 40 years of sins that you just confessed to them.' ?

I ask because the articles about inactive ones returning to the Kingdom Hall have always said something about  "Loving discipline may be required." There's even been instructions to those who may be asked to study with an inactive JW, such as this in a 2008 wt:

Because you can catch more bears with honey than with vinegar.  Jer 12:6; Ps 55:21; 2 Tim 3:1-9; 2:25,26

It has everything to do with numbers.  

 

[Witness]

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Learn Scripture. That’s the difference when we make sense of the whole bible, not just a scripture to benefit one’s own argument.

Hi Allen,

I see that you really haven’t answered my questions using scriptures.  But instead, you say the above.  

Again I ask,

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:12

Do you believe I have manipulated this scripture as Samuel Herd slaughtered 1 Cor 6:19,20 to fit his agenda targeting slaving for the organization?   How would you interpret it?"

Shouldn’t we apply your comment to the GB member?  You might want to listen to his presentation and judge for yourself.  His word inflections prove his determination to twist scripture to benefit his own argument of slaving for the organization.  If he was remotely true to scripture, he would have cited the verse, turning to it in the bible.

Allen, I know how are determined to defend the organization as God’s, but God defended his Son and expects us to recognize HIS plan through his Son; not man’s, a plan that is barely over 100 years old.  Where do you find solid evidence of an earthly Mount Zion in the form of a worldly organization in the scriptures?  It flies its own flag, it is its own Kingdom amid all of Satan’s kingdoms, it runs as any earthly organization does.  Men “worship” it through their slavery to it, fully supported by the GB to do so. 

Matt 4:8-10  - Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”  Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”  Rom 6:16

John 4:21-24 - Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The Jewish temple was a tangible structure at a specific geographic location. But spirit and truth are not material, nor are they limited to any physical place. Thus, Jesus was explaining that true Christian worship would not be centered in or dependent on any material structure or physical location, whether Mount Gerizim, the temple in Jerusalem, or any other sacred place. THE WATCHTOWER NO. 2 2016 

Doesn't this make it plain that we return to the Father when we have sinned, not to a corporation?

If  anyone, anyone, desires to worship in spirit and truth on their own, by turning completely to Christ and the Father, and not attached to the organization, they are condemned, according to the Watchtower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Hello Praeceptor

Hello,

I'm not going to answer to all of your points because we clearly are miles appart in the understanding of the scriptures. I will though explain some Greek to you as a favor and in the hopes that you'll understand the meaning of Hebrews 13:17.

To begin with, the word used is not "hēgeomai" (ἡγέομαι) which is the verb of that root, but ηγουμένοις (the pronunciation is igume'nis), plural of ηγούμενος (igu'menos). The meaning of the word "igu'menos" is, etymologically speaking and to put it in one simple word, leader. But Greek as you may know is a very rich and complex language and was not used only for the Christian Scriptures. So by examining the use of the word igumenos or the verb ige'ome/hēgeomai we can safely know what is exactly the message the writers wanted to convey. Liddell & Scott and others have vast amounts of information on these things. To facilitate you I'll summarize it for you:

hēgeomai / ige'ome = I go before, I lead, I command, I rule, I have dominion

igu'menos = leader, commander, ruler, to be the head of, guide

But don't take my word for it, see for yourself.  

So you see... your much hated "ruling over" IS implied. How do we know? Because of the use of this particular word. As stated before, Greek is a very rich language and there are other words that describe much much better the "working together" you would like. So here's a question for you: why apostle Paul used this word? You don't need to answer.

As I have said in another post, I understand that when discipline is administered the one receiving it might think of it as punishment, injustice or other unpleasant things. This is normal especially when the ones administering it are imperfect people like you and me. You expect every decision taken by the elders to be right and perfect?

I would like to remind you of 2 Samuel 19:24-30. Mephibosheth was treated fairly?

From what you and others write in here I conclude that the real problem is that you don't want to have anyone "keeping watch over you".  You want to do things as you see fit based on your understanding of the scriptures. Adam and Eve had a very similar view.

 

PS: I quoted you at the begining but my answer goes to others too so don't take it too personal. Also, to be fair, you should know that I don't only read Greek but I am a native speaker too. ;-)

PPS: In my experience there are 3 kinds of people that "ask" questions and pose objections like the ones you do. Unrepentant disfellowshipped ones, apostates and opposers/haters. I don't know in which category you fall into but I'm going to take the advice in 1 Timothy 6:3,4,20,21.

 

[Witness]

On 9/25/2016 at 3:01 PM, ThePraeceptor said:

To begin with, the word used is not "hēgeomai" (ἡγέομαι) which is the verb of that root, but ηγουμένοις (the pronunciation is igume'nis), plural of ηγούμενος (igu'menos). The meaning of the word "igu'menos" is, etymologically speaking and to put it in one simple word, leader.

Hello,

Thank you Praeceptor, it is good to know you speak Greek.  I would ask you many questions if I could.  One off the top of my head is why would you suppose the Watchtower Kingdom Interlinear translates it as “among you”?  Actually, its translation enhances the unity of the Body of Christ.  Eph 2:20; Phil 3:17; 1 Cor 14:32,33; 1 Cor 12:7,17,18,21,22,25,26,28

To “go before, lead”, is harmonious with my thoughts earlier. Translating this word into English seems to have some flexibility. Heb 13:17

YLT - Be obedient to those leading you, and be subject, for these do watch for your souls, as about to give account, that with joy they may do this, and not sighing, for this is unprofitable to you.

NIV -  Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

The question to ask is, who has the right to “lead” God’s people?  If you feel the elder body, a false priesthood not appointed by God, has been given authority to issue “commands” over the sheep using doctrines of men in the name of righteous leadership, shouldn’t sheep question whether Christ’s commands are the overriding principle used by those who “rule over” them?  If these ones are breaking the law of proper worship, should they be listened to?

Jesus told those whom he chose, to feed his sheep, not that all can’t do so, but he gave this primary responsibility to the Body.  John 15:16; 21:17 These are the anointed ones, not those appointed on the basis of “scriptural qualifications”, or if one meets the required amount of field service hours per month.  This is a direct spiritual appointment made by God, any other man or woman is not involved.  1 John 2:20 (Matt 25:21)

“We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.  But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:  Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.”  1 John 2:3-6

So, the question is, does the elder body follow Christ’s commands, or those of men?  Matt 15:9

The anointed in Christ are the true priesthood (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19; Acts 17:24; Col 2:17; Rev 5:9,19), and are to offer “fine fruits”, but who have stooped down to a GB/elder body who lord it over them, and all sheep.  Rom 11:9,10; Rev 13:11,15  They are those “among you” who are expected to ‘go before”, to lead, not through dogmatic obedience to doctrine, but directing one to obey, not men, but God’s word, as Jesus did.  John 12:47,48; Phil 2:8; Heb 10:9

Jesus warned his disciples of “ruling over” others, in the same way the elder body rules over the flock. Mark 10:42-45 (1 John 2:20,21)

“Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.  Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.  For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”  Mar 10:42-45

Does the elder body take Jesus’ admonition to “lead” through serving and slaving for others as Jesus did?  And what about the “high officials” the GB?  No.  These false prophets have given authority to the elder body, to spiritually judge one as dead, breaking not only one commandment, but many.  Rom 14:12; Luke 21:36

Rom 14:10 – “ But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”

“Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.  Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.  But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.” 1 John 2:7-11 (John 14:23)

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”  Mark 12:30-31

These last words leave no room left to give love, devotion, admiration, or loyalty of any kind to an organization, or to “kill” one’s brother or sister through man’s judgment. 1 John 2:15-17; Acts 7:48-51 The organization uses Heb 13:17 to the farthest reaches of the rich Greek language, as you say, and that is, “I have dominion”, not only over the sheep, but over God’s chosen Temple, his Holy Place.  Matt 24:15; Dan 9:27; 8:10;  1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:2; Matt 5:13

Those who have been appointed to “watch out for your souls” – Christ’s sheep, as well as each other, also have a heavy accountability for not listening directly to Christ.  Matt 25:24-30  Truly, what the organization has fabricated is a “disgusting thing” in God’s eyes, and a rejection of Christ, by the rejection of the Body of Christ.  John 12:48-50

The account in 2 Sam 19:24-30 was handled by David, an anointed one by God.  Is there really any comparison to the elder body and the discipline they mete out according to a rule book? 

I, too, take the stance of 1 Timothy 6:3,4,20,2 balanced with 2 Cor 10:4,5; Col 2:8 and Eph 5:11-14

Disgusting Thing

 

 

 

[Witness]

On 9/25/2016 at 3:26 PM, AllenSmith said:

That’s what happens when ignorance cuts and paste other people’s trash. Give the foolish ones their day, and serve God as Scripture subscribe under the authority of our savior Jesus Christ. After all, where would Satan be without his uneducated slave class minions, John 8:44 with their own tales and lies.

You have gone through a lot of effort, Allen.  I did read it, and found it helpful, in ways other than what you were implying, I’m sure.  Yes, 2 Peter 3 can be quite enlightening.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;  but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 3:14-18

“In the past, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 when World War I started. We thought that Jehovah “cut short” those days in 1918 when the war ended so that the remaining anointed ones on earth could preach the good news to all nations. (Matthew 24:21, 22) After that preaching work would be completed, we expected that Satan’s world would be destroyed. So we thought that there were three parts to the great tribulation. It would begin in 1914, it would be interrupted in 1918, and it would finish at Armageddon.”  “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be” ws13 7/15 pp. 3-8

 Previously, this journal has explained that in the first century, “this generation” mentioned at Matthew 24:34 meant “the contemporaneous generation of unbelieving Jews.” That explanation seemed reasonable because all other recorded uses that Jesus made of the term “generation” had a negative connotation, and in most cases, Jesus used a negative adjective, such as “wicked,” to describe the generation w 08/2/15 p 21-25

How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.  Watchtower 2010 Apr 15 p.10 Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose

“Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless”

Do you see how the GB grasps at straws? How do you excuse such confusion promoted by the GB, Allen?  Have you forgotten the thousands before you who believed completely, wholeheartedly, intently in “truth” to later find it was wrong, a lie?  Do these people’s lives matter to anyone in the organization?  Is it any way gratifying to know that these ones lived a lie, and were devoted to it? 

Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon ("BA'AL protect the king", but check with Praeceptor, please) shares much in common with the GB.

“But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this.  And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels (2 Cor 4:7; 2 Tim 2:20) of His house (1 Pet 2:5) before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. (Heb 13:15; John 15:5) And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified.  Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.  “And this is the inscription that was written:  MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.  This is the interpretation of each word. MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting”  Dan 5:22-27

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  Heb 10:31

Rev 19:20

Last Harlot and Her Beast

 

 

 

[Guest]

Hello,

You have put a lot of effort to your post and I apreciate it. You say:

3 hours ago, Witness said:

I, too, take the stance of 1 Timothy 6:3,4,20,2 balanced with 2 Cor 10:4,5; Col 2:8 and Eph 5:11-14

But here we are "playing" with words again. (and I'm not talking about the gross selfserving missuse of the "balancing" scriptures)

3 hours ago, Witness said:

One off the top of my head is why would you suppose the Watchtower Kingdom Interlinear translates it as “among you”?

I don't know what is the difference in English. Probably there are fine connotations of the wording that I can't grasp since I'm not a native speaker. In Greek though there is no difference in the meaning however you may want to word it. Therefore since there is no dogmatic division between the Greek JW's and the rest of the brotherhood on this matter I can safely assume that in English the wording carries the same meaning as the original. As to the "why" of your question I can't answer. I was not involved with it so I can't speak for the translators nor answer that kind of specific question. You are most welcome to write asking them.

For the main part of your post you are making a lot of slanderous assumptions and then work to defend them scripturaly. Of course you are entitled to your own thoughts and opinions as eveyone else. I think though that in essence you are answering your own questions when you write this:

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Those who have been appointed to “watch out for your souls” – Christ’s sheep, as well as each other, also have a heavy accountability for not listening directly to Christ.  Matt 25:24-30  Truly, what the organization has fabricated is a “disgusting thing” in God’s eyes, and a rejection of Christ, by the rejection of the Body of Christ.  John 12:48-50

IF the elders don't listen to Christ let Him be the judge. IF a "disgusting thing" has been fabricated let God be the judge. Remember what Gamaliel told the Sanhedrin in Act 5:34-39. "...if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself."

Why not be humble and let Jehovah short out the misstreatment (as you view it) of His sheep? Who appointed you as a judge of the actions of the elders or the WTS? Again, I want no answer.

 

[Witness]

12 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

16 hours ago, Witness said:

Those who have been appointed to “watch out for your souls” – Christ’s sheep, as well as each other, also have a heavy accountability for not listening directly to Christ.  Matt 25:24-30  Truly, what the organization has fabricated is a “disgusting thing” in God’s eyes, and a rejection of Christ, by the rejection of the Body of Christ.  John 12:48-50

IF the elders don't listen to Christ let Him be the judge. IF a "disgusting thing" has been fabricated let God be the judge. Remember what Gamaliel told the Sanhedrin in Act 5:34-39. "...if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself."

I appreciate your opinion on the Greek Interlinear.  I wish I could understand how although the Greek is a rich language, you said, “In Greek though there is no difference in the meaning however you may want to word it”.  In my mind I’m trying to see a full spectrum of interpretation with one Greek word and its meaning, each time it is read. Yet, in the bible the same Greek word brings about a different use according to scripture. While there are most definitely fine connotations or wording in English, there also appears to be so with Greek.  If I only could speak the language. How many times has the Greek word for worship been discussed and argued over when it concerns God, Christ and Satan? 

I know you don’t want an answer, Praeceptor,  but I must clarify something.   What you quoted from me, is pertaining to the anointed ones who permit a “wicked slave” to rule over them, even “beat” them if their thoughts are contrary to scripture; by the GB giving authority to the elders to“kill” them for rejecting doctrine, and organization, but also for their testimony of Christ.  Matt 24:45-51; Rev 13:15.  They receive a symbolic “beheading” as John the Baptist did for proclaiming Christ. Shunning and disfellowshipping is a cutting off of all communication and socialization, is it not?   Mark 6:27; Rev 20:4; John 15:20; Matt 10:21,22; Luke 12:49-53; John 16:2; Heb 13:13; Matt 5:10,11

What Gamaliel said is true, but do we use this to support the idea that we “wait on Jehovah”?  Gamaliel was not a prophet or an apostle. Since God is unchanging, he certainly wouldn’t change to justify the Watchtower if it has transgressed his decrees.   When it came to transgressions made against God’s Temple, he let the people know about it, and does so today.  Rev 11:2; Eze 44:6-9; 2 Chron 23:6; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Dan 11:31; 8:11; Matt 24:15,16; Mark 13:14

Always concerning idolatry, God let the people know it, and we realize they suffered for it, as in Moses’ day.   (Isa chapter 2)

“So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Elijah went before the people and said, ‘How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.’ But the people said nothing.” 1 Kings 18:21

We know what happened after this powerful display that Elijah used to judge the hundreds of prophets that relied on Baal.  1 Kings 18:18-40

Although I have posted these before on this forum, it’s important to be reminded of the hypocrisy within the organization.

WT ‘90 11/1 p. 26 "As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities

Kingdom Ministry ’90/11 p. 1 Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization:
"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established."

In the same month, out of the same mouth, comes two different understandings of salvation.  Which opinion do you choose?  Jer 23:16; Ezek 13:1-19; Matt 24:24; 1 Thess 5:3; Rev 3:18

If we support false, changing, hypocritical doctrine, God does not sort us out as worthy.  Rev 18:4; 2 Cor 11:3,4; Rev 3:15-18

“The prophets prophesy falsely,
    the priests rule by their own authority,
and my people love it this way.
    But what will you do in the end?”  Jer 5:31